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My introduction :)

 
  

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Spaniel
19:42 / 12.03.07
Well, slightly experienced with junkies and the effects of heroin too.

I am also aware that no drug is simply bad, but I feel that some drugs (including booze) are considerably more worrying than others (which may not be very worrying at all)
 
 
the permuted man
19:47 / 12.03.07
Is this going to magically tie back into the gun analogy?
 
 
the permuted man
19:48 / 12.03.07
Oops, I meant that to be funny. I wasn't implying it should.
 
 
illmatic
19:49 / 12.03.07
I am also aware that no drug is simply bad

I kind of feel the same about guns. Or rather, I think it's a more complex issue than you're painting it, Lula.
 
 
petunia
19:56 / 12.03.07
They're mostly specifically designed so that you can become one with Mother Earth and experience what it it is to be a cosmic Universal being. So there.

Nope. Most drugs are either 'designed' by accident, or are products of the evolutionary process and, as such, not really 'designed' (if we take 'design' to mean stuff that is made with an aim or purpose).

Some people use drugs to touch Mother Earth; a lot use them to get mashed up and feel funny. Some use them to reach oblivion.

Some people use guns to highten their physical awareness and bodily skills; a lot use them for a bit of sport and for security. Some use them to kill - themselves or others.

Like the eggman said - complex.
 
 
Triplets
19:56 / 12.03.07
Anyway. Welcome to Scarlett 156.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:05 / 12.03.07
Unfortunately, people who claim that they own guns as a check on their tyrannical government are pretty much inevitably either 1) militia nutbars or 2) procrastinators who will endlessly defer the point at which it is appropriate for them to take up arms. There's no shame in just admitting that you like guns, have no intention of ever using them for any political purpose, would last about three seconds against the military-industrial complex if you did, and you collect them as if they were basketball cards, but shaped a bit more like penises. Gnothi seauthon, in this as in all things, really.

And, Lula, please throttle down a bit. We can talk about guns, certiainly, but not at this pitch. You're occasioning a lot of snarky asides about how nice and welcoming we all are, and some tragically avoidable emoticons, both of which we could do without.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:06 / 12.03.07
I'm not painting anything any colour at all. Happy to hear anyone's point of view. I just don't think making a comparison with guns and drugs is helpful in the slightest.

Boboss, I also have experience (although not personally) with Herion and addiction, but I also have experience with it being used in an adult and experimental way.

The whole reason that guns exist makes them questionable for for me. Unlike martial arts guns are not for self defence. The Shaolin monks originally learnt exercises to increase their physical condition and to help them with stamina training and for meditation. It's a form of attack built out of peace and defence. I just don't get that with guns. The Chinese used gunpowder in warfare and guns grew out of that - they have always been a dedicated killing tool, and not even one dedicated to killing animals for food. It's just about power and that's all it is. I can kill you so you have to fear me. So even though these days there are plently of people who never use guns for killing human beings, that's still fundamentally what they're for and I find it difficult to get past that.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:16 / 12.03.07
And, Lula, please throttle down a bit. We can talk about guns, certiainly, but not at this pitch. You're occasioning a lot of snarky asides about how nice and welcoming we all are, and some tragically avoidable emoticons, both of which we could do without.

Dear Haus. I have no pitch at all actually other than that I admit to feeling miffed with the 'tone' of the response to my very first question about guns, a question which I did not think was at all snarky and did not deserve the response it got. I was actually nice and welcoming but my very first question was met with sarcasm about my inability to understand what a gun was.

I don't feel soley responsible for making Scarlet feel 'unwelcome' as I expect your comment about being 'adorable' elsewhere in the forum probably contributed to that feeling somewhat, too. I also think if Scarlet had just answered the qiestion nicely in the first place, like, "Oh, it's my hobby to shoot tin cans with a variety of historical guns" or something I wouldn't have felt so miffed.

But anyway, Scarlet, please don't think we are all a bunch of unfriendly people because we're not at all. I'm sorry if my posts have come across like that.

Oh and .trampetunia, I thought I was being tongue in cheek about drugs because quite clearly they are not all Universal love-in initiators as anyone who has ever listened to someone else on cocaine surely knows.
 
 
petunia
20:19 / 12.03.07
I was being tongue in cheek

Fair enough. I was a bit taken aback by the statement. It makes more sense now.

Out of interest, Lula, what is your position on archery?
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:19 / 12.03.07
I admit to a bit of blowhardery there Haus. I am actually far more worried about the zombies then I am about a civil war (Oh shit, I DON'T know what myspace is).

There are two legitimate reasons I own guns. The first being that, as Haus said, I like them. I like the mechanical workings, I like the loud noise and fire. This is the reason I own more then one. The reason I purchased my first one is I moved into a neighborhood that was extremely shady. On more then one occasion I had to call the police because of someone running around on my roof, among other things. After I discovered that the average response time for the police was over 10 minutes I realized that if someone were breaking into my home they could kill me and leave before the police arrived. Rather then risk trying to kung fu someone who might be armed with anything up to and including a gun, I figure it is in the best interest of my and my family's safety to be armed.

My $.02 at least. Like I said earlier, I understand peoples distaste for firearms, that is why I don't have them displayed, because they make some people uncomfortable.
 
 
Spaniel
20:23 / 12.03.07
Boboss, I also have experience (although not personally) with Herion and addiction, but I also have experience with it being used in an adult and experimental way.

I don't have direct, personal experience of Heroin addiction, just to be clear, but I have watched friends succumb to its charms, and that hasn't been at all nice.

Of course I appreciate that it can be taken responsibly by sensible, together, hardy adults, it's just that it often isn't, and, well, when I compare it to other drugs I do so in the knowledge that I've never seen a bright, radiant life destroyed by pot addiction, something I've seen with Heroin more than once, and time and time again with alcohol.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:26 / 12.03.07
Well, Olulabelle, let's let Scarlett react as she wishes rather than editorialising her reaction to things said elsewhere, shall we? Let's also not create a parallel world where

For shooting things? Or creatures? Or people? Or what?

Is nice or welcoming.

However, I don't think we'll make much progress here, so let's get back on-offtopic.

I just don't think making a comparison with guns and drugs is helpful in the slightest.


Way-ull. Guns and drugs are both largely made by people seeking to make a profit and sold at a profit to people who want to use them for their own purposes. In that sense, guns are a lot like drugs, and a lot like pretty much any other object produced by a capitalist system.

It's also worth noting at this point that an _awful_ lot of gun crime happens because people find them the most effective way to settle arguments about drugs - primarily, regarding who gets to sell drugs in the optimum selling areas. So, the drugs market creates conditions in which a guns market is able to establish itself, advertising its efficacy among young capitalists to maximise the return on their investment. This before we get to the really serious chaps with private armies using guns to secure their control of fields of poppies and coca, and using those guns on other people with or without guns

So, really, if you take heroin or cocaine, in particular, you are essentially expressing your approval of guns conceptually - you are just eating the chicken sandwich rather than raising the chicken. I think there's something about the circle of life, here.

Elijah: Interesting. So, do you have your guns arranged in such a way that it would be easy for you to get hold of a gun and the right ammunition in a very short space of time between, say, being woken by a noise and first contact with an intruder?
 
 
Olulabelle
20:34 / 12.03.07
what is your position on archery?

I'm an excellent archer actually and shoot regularly!

That's because I think archery is different again, so you can't really compare it with guns. Archery was invented out of a need to kill food, bows and arrows are as old as we are and were not created (designed) for killing human beings, they were designed for killing dinner. The fact that they then because useful for killing people does not make them only designed for that. It's like being skilful at a martial art, you can kill someone with it, but it wasn't orignially created (in the very beginnings of the discipline) for that.

But that's just my opinion. I suppose it could be that I'm being reactionary, but I would need someone to explain away that initial difference of invention to feel better about guns.

By the way re: the drugs thing, most drugs have their root in medicinal herbs and plants and you can follow them back to their origin; they are natural things. I apologise for using the word 'design' which obviously confused you, I should have said something like 'place'. Modern useage of these drugs includes getting fucked up or 'mashed' I think was your word but if you are approaching drugs from an even vaguely shamanic point of view you can see that's not what they are for.

A person who is committed to shamanic exploration would believe they are 'for' reaching the divine conciousness and so that's why I cannot compare them with a tool for killing.

Maybe my tongue in cheekness didn't help, I'm sorry.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:35 / 12.03.07
Elijah: Interesting. So, do you have your guns arranged in such a way that it would be easy for you to get hold of a gun and the right ammunition in a very short space of time between, say, being woken by a noise and first contact with an intruder?

I do. I have a .45 caliber semi automatic pistol which I keep in the drawer of a bedside table (no children in the place who might get a hold of it). I don't keep it 'cocked and locked' (the penis terminology surrounding firearms is just silly) as that is fairly dangerous. I keep the magazine loaded with no round chambered though. What this means, for those who don't know, is that the pistol is an inert hunk of metal until I work the action (...) to chamber the round, at which point it becomes ready to fire.

When not target shooting I use ammunition designed to expand on contact when it is fired. This way if I do need to fire it inside my home the chance of the bullet traveling through a wall and into bystanders is greatly reduced (even should it travel through a wall it would lose much of its velocity do to the expansion).

I don't ever want to be in a situation where I need to shoot somebody. My hope is that should I ever draw a gun on someone they would surrender or run rather then attack me. I think that is less likely if I were to pull a knife or take a fighting stance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:38 / 12.03.07
.45 hollowpoints? Interesting. How thick are the walls where you live? Any internal walls?
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:39 / 12.03.07
When I said 'fairly dangerous' above I should have said 'more dangerous'. The only reason having a gun ready to fire in a drawer would be especially dangerous would be if there was someone who could get at it who did not know gun safety (a child) or a catastrophic failure in the hardware itself. Also a fire that got hot enough could cause the round to fire, something that wouldn't happen to bullets that are not chambered (they just kind of pop).
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:43 / 12.03.07
Cross posty.

The inner walls are drywall on both sides, outer walls being brick/cement with a fake adobe finish.

I use Glaser rounds when at home though, not a standard mushrooming hollow point. I don't fire Glasers at the range though, too expensive.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:43 / 12.03.07
Haus, I think then that talking about drugs is pointless because we are talking about entirely different things, me approaching it from a point of view where all drugs are medicinal and can heal you and you from a point of view that is considering street drugs. I really still don't get the comparison and I have tried to understand it but we don't seem to be going anywhere here. I agree to disagree.

Plus, please don't make out I was being snarky when I asked the guns question. I genuinely wanted to know what she used her guns for. Note I started with 'things' which I thought was the most diplomatic option. I am not in a parallel universe, I am in this one and in this one when someone says they're into guns a question about what they are used for is perfectly valid.

Anyway I'm not arguing with you about it. I asked a genuine question, that was met with a snarky answer and so I replied in kind. I don't think guns are good things, but that's just my opinion which I am entitled to and as I said I'm willing to be dissuaded of that, but I don't see anyone apart from Elijah trying.

I am most interested in what Illmatic is saying about guns and their relation to martial arts and I hope that that train of the conversation doesn't get lost in all this.
 
 
Triplets
20:51 / 12.03.07
We can still agree, though, that you shouldn't give spiders drugs.

Or guns.

But we can teach them archery and martial arts.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:54 / 12.03.07
Kung Fu spiders are almost as bad as the zombies!

And, just to make it clear, I'm not trying to convert anyone or change their opinions any more on this topic then on others where I would feel I was knowledgeable. I don't want to sound like I am trying to push a pro gun agenda on the 'Lith. I don't do I?
 
 
petunia
20:57 / 12.03.07
I think you make some interesting points, Lula, but i think your position is reliant on an essentialism which is betrayed when you say:

Modern useage of these drugs includes getting fucked up [...] but if you are approaching drugs from an even vaguely shamanic point of view you can see that's not what they are for.

Here you point out that the use of a thing is dependent on the user for definition. Where some use drugs for religious ceremony and exploration, some use them to get fucked up. 'What drugs are for' is here defined by how people use them.

Where guns were first used in battle, they have been used for a long while in hunting and in sport. Where bows and arrows were (more than likely) first designed for hunting, they have since been used for centuries for sport and battle.

If we are to let the orignal design of a thing stand as its primary definition, we must lump fireworks in the realm of 'nasty battle things'.

And fireworks are fun, so i don't want to do that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:04 / 12.03.07
The only reason having a gun ready to fire in a drawer would be especially dangerous would be if there was someone who could get at it who did not know gun safety (a child) or a catastrophic failure in the hardware itself. Also a fire that got hot enough could cause the round to fire, something that wouldn't happen to bullets that are not chambered (they just kind of pop).

Well, or there could be somebody in the room who is sufficiently passionate about making a point that the gun becomes a useful accessory. Or somebody very drunk, or under the influence of certain other chemicals, or having just had some very, very bad news. YMMV.

Which is one of the things that I find interesting about the way firerms are licensed. In some places - including the UK - the assumption is, essentially, that there is no good purpose to which some guns can be put in civilian hands - in the UK, cartridge handguns, for example - whereas other guns hve civilian uses but that need needs to be proven before the gun can be legally registered.

In parts of the US, the opposite seems to apply. In a way, it is much friendlier, because it assumes that it would be rude to assume that a gun might ever be wanted for a nefarious purpose. This is the "just a tool" argument, really - you wouldn't stop someone from buying a steak knife in case they used it to kill their husband, would you?

I don't entirely buy the "just a tool" argument, because a tool generally has a purpose. Whereas a gun is a device for projecting metal at speed into things. It has almost no practical application, and a fair few rather dangerous ones. It is not just a tool.

I also don't buy the "bows were invented for dinner, martial arts were invented for phyiscal well-being" argument, because what something was created for seems less important then what it is being used for right then. So, I don't personally believe in a narrative wherein some external force put poppies or psilocybin mushrooms on earth to help humanity to heal itself - if humanity has managed to work it into a therapeutic narrative then good for humanity - but I don't think that has a huge impact either way on druug lords in Colombia, poppy fields in Afghanistan or indeed a chap selling shrooms or hash at competitve prices at the Student Union - these are the appications that matter, rather tha n what the universe had in mind at the origin of any of those devices. Likewise, an arrow in the gut or being punched repeatedly in the face is largely unaffected by the archetype of the creative impulse that led to its creation in the first place.

However. The different between archery, martial art and guns in this case, for me at least, is that guns tend to be much more efficient and much more mechanical means of inflicting trauma on people, and also to be a method more suited to the circumstances - limited formal training, close range, a need for concealment. This is, after all, why longbows are little favoured by criminal gangs. They take a long time to master, a long time to use and are all-round less well-suited to the requirement to kill people efficiently. By the same token, people tend not to fall for the idea of "home defence" when purchasing or mastering longbows, because they are aware that they are unlikely to be able to defend their home with a longbow. Guns are a far easier sell, because the conditions - little formal training, close range, limited reaction time - are well-suited to the ideal condition for using a gun, although the circumstantial difference is likely to be quite telling.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:11 / 12.03.07
(Incidentally, I hadn't heard of Glaser ammunition before - fascinating stuff. Thanks, Elijah. So, this is a sort of "ethical bullet"... you pay more, but you get the warm glow of knowing that you area doing your bit for considerate firearms discharge?)
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
21:23 / 12.03.07
It always pays to be considerate, regardless of what type of discharge we are discussing.

I think 'ethical' is the wrong term, and the ammunition isn't suited to hunting because of the way it breaks up. It can not guarantee a 'clean kill' and can cause prolonged suffering, so I do not think it is ethical in that sense. I think it is safER then firing solid lead through the walls of an apartment complex or house though, so it does show some forethought on the part of an ethical gun owner who might need to defend hir home.

I think that one of the primary causes for fear/distrust of firearms was mentioned up thread. You only really ever hear about guns on the news when horrible things happen. Situations like this one where someone is able to stop a crime in progress with ever firing a shot are rarely picked up by larger news carriers. I don't believe this to be a LIBERALZ MEDIA CONSPIASEE! or anything like that, I think it is just an issue of sensationalism in the news. I would imagine that had the woman been stabbed and set on fire it would have made the rounds, at least nation wide here in the states.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:25 / 12.03.07
Yes, "ethical" was a gag - think of ethical farming - pay more, feel better about waht you are eating.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
21:26 / 12.03.07
Ah, right. Fair Trade Coffee Beans and all that.
 
 
Tsuga
21:34 / 12.03.07
Well, I'm positively bristling with guns. I live in the sticks, I have to worry that at any moment some barefoot shirtless hillbilly in tattered overalls and a straw hat will come hoofin it up my driveway to make me squeal like a pig. So, I've got guns stashed all over, behind the fridge, on the mantle, beneath the chair cushions, taped to the cat.

Okay, yes, I'm lying. I am woefully unarmed. I don't fear my neighbors, even though they have many many guns. My grandfather would be ashamed, because he did have guns stashed everywhere mentioned above (but the cat) and more. I was 8 years old visiting him and reached into the couch cushion and pulled out a loaded .38. It became a game to find all the guns in his house. He had one taped inside the piano.

I've only shot guns a few times, one being over the holidays in Texas with all my gun-toting in-laws. A bunch of us menfolk went to an indoor shooting range. It was interesting, though the atmosphere was so...aggressive? Not the people, the actual atmosphere, with the concussive shockwaves from multiple guns (some of them ridiculously big) going off at once, and the strong smell of cordite. It's hard to shoot accurately, I discovered. It's kind of fun, but I still don't think I want a gun.
Anyway, welcome Scarlett.
 
 
illmatic
21:40 / 12.03.07
I am most interested in what Illmatic is saying about guns and their relation to martial arts and I hope that that train of the conversation doesn't get lost in all this.

Well, simply put, martial arts are similar to firearms use in that both are physical skills that one can learn to optimise your own self-protection. Obviously, there are a number of ethical reasons why one might want to take the former over the latter, but if a) one is in country where firearms use is legal, b) self-protection is upmost in your mind and c) one is being bloody pragmatic,learning to use a gun is a relatively logical thing to do.

A side point is that up until relatively recently - less than 200 years ago in most countries? - a lot of the citzenery was armed anyway. As part of becoming more civilised, being armed in any way becomes an offence and we rely increasingly on some kind of police force for our protection. (Note: I'm not saying this is a bad thing). A lot of martial arts reflect this, as they're basically battlefield arts and only really make sense if you imagine doing them with a sword in hand and wearing armour. (I wish I'd gleaned this for myself but it comes from eavesdropping conversations with those who know much more than me.)

With that in mind, I really can't agree with:

The Shaolin monks originally learnt exercises to increase their physical condition and to help them with stamina training and for meditation.

As a universal origin point for martial arts, this is simply untrue. It's a back protection designed to make martial arts seem nice, peaceful and marketable to hippies doing Tai Chi. Every large scale culture in human history have had battlefield "arts" of some description and this is the origin point of most martial arts. Like guns, they are ultimately about killing people, rather than enhancing meditation. This is not saying one can't find meditational disiplines within them, but this is in no sense their point of origin.
 
 
Proinsias
22:04 / 12.03.07
A person who is committed to shamanic exploration would believe they are 'for' reaching the divine conciousness and so that's why I cannot compare them with a tool for killing.

Many samurai of Japan were generaly pretty committed zen buddhists and used their sword as the object that would help them train themselves to become at one with the nature of the universe, or something. I don't think they approved of drug use seeing it as something that clouded the mind from seeing things as they actually are eg. true reality, life/death, brahman, nirvana etc. Some of the greatest zen philisophy from japan came from the great swordsmen and generals.

I don't how closely a sword relates to a gun all though they do seemed to have been conceived for a very similar purpose.
 
 
ibis the being
22:14 / 12.03.07
I have a gun. My SO works nights and my soon to be father in law, an old-fashioned Texan and gun enthusiast, was worried enough about me being home alone that he insisted on giving me a gun. It's some kind of revolver, I forget the caliber, with hollow point bullets - just the five that are in the thingy. I wanted to refuse it, but the reason I accepted was because he's an old man with poor eyesight and possible early Alzeimers and I figured that's one gun fewer in his house.

The crazy thing (I mean, apart from me owning a gun) is that the point of this gun was supposed to be to keep me safe. But I have not had a decent night's sleep since I brought it into my house. Every night when I go to bed I not only just have the general weird feeling of omigod I have a fucking gun on my nightstand, but I can't stop replaying a mental runthrough of whether & how I am going to be able to grab, aim, and shoot this gun "when" an intruder busts into my house to rape and kill me, which is something I never obsessed over or mentally rehearsed until I was given the gun. It's pretty freaky stuff.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:16 / 12.03.07
Well, quite. Although:

but if a) one is in country where firearms use is legal, b) self-protection is upmost in your mind and c) one is being bloody pragmatic,learning to use a gun is a relatively logical thing to do.

You see, that's the interesting thing. It isn't, exactly. I mean, it my be logical to learn to use a gun, as it might be logical to learn to skin a rabbit or collect rainwater, but it is neither pragmatic nor useful to own one. Statistically, your chances of being hit by a bullet go up enormously if you own a gun. Kellerman's 1986 study on the efficacy of firearms in the home came up with this interesting statistic:

For every case of self-protection homicide involving a firearm kept in the home, there were 1.3 accidental deaths, 4.6 criminal homicides, and 37 suicides involving firearms.

Now, you can shave those odds, obviously - not having a teenaged son helps a lot, as I imagine would not drinking, not taking drugs, not receiving bad news, having a very good relationship with your partner and so on. On t'other hand, people always think that they are at the top end of the safety curve in any situation - driving, in particular.

So, owning a firearm appears to put you and your loved ones at significantyly greater risk of death by firearm than not owning one. Which is interesting. It suggests that people may be increasing their exposure to the risk of death by firearm, in exchange for a metaphysical quality - the feeling that is conferred by ownership of a firearm, in effect. It's interesting.
 
 
Tsuga
22:21 / 12.03.07
Ibis, if you do have a gun, and it's going to stay there, at least learn how to use it properly. Maybe you have, but saying "the thingy" makes me think maybe you haven't? Or get rid of the damn thing, if it bothers you that much. I don't think it's a very good idea to push a gun on someone unwilling or uncomfortable with it.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
23:27 / 12.03.07
Also, ibis, on your nightstand = not the greatest place to keep a gun. If an intruder did break in while you were sleeping, ze could easily take the gun and gain the advantage before you were even awake. The cops on TV I see always keep theirs under the mattress if they're taking a gun to bed.

(Finally, a real use for my addiction to crime drama!)
 
 
The Ghost of Tom Winter
00:21 / 13.03.07
Under the pillow is best. Didn't you learn anything from James Bond?
 
  

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