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George "Sulu" Takei responds to Tim Hardaway's homophobic remarks

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Make me Uncomfortable
18:11 / 26.02.07
Alex's Grandma: I had, however, been at the cooking sherry yesterday, and was possibly a bit over-stimulated as a result.

You rock my tiny world.
 
 
*
18:34 / 26.02.07
It's not just the fetishization here, but:

1) Its insincerity. Obviously the attraction as played in this video is a put-on in order to make Hardaway uncomfortable. If the goal is to make Hardaway look ridiculous, as I assume it is, that can be done easily enough without employing racial stereotypes, prejudices, and racially-loaded language.

2) The assumption of rights. Because Takei is in a position of slightly greater racial privilege in certain respects—Asian-Americans experience racism, and I don't mean to minimize that, but because of white people's unpleasant habit of stereotyping them as "model minorities" they're also less likely in the US to be put in jail or beaten up by cops for things they didn't do than are Black people—he has the power to mock-fondle Hardaway on television in a way that would cause considerable outcry if it went the other way around. Black people's bodies have been treated as property, a fact that is eerily echoed every time a stupid white person asks (or worse, doesn't ask) to touch a Black acquaintance's hair or skin. Here we've got Takei, in a position of relative privilege, virtually fondling Hardaway all over in ways that he's already as much as said are not okay, and Hardaway doesn't get to respond. He's already been very effectively silenced by the media outcry about this event.

3) Media have been calling out Black people for homophobic comments an awful lot lately. Why's that? Are we to believe that Black people make homophobic comments more often in the past couple of months than they ever have before, or than white celebrities? Or maybe it's worse when it comes from Black people, because "they should know better" or "they shouldn't be allowed to speak in public" (as a coworker said about Isaiah Washington). Or maybe it's because it's an easy way to hit Black people while not looking racist and also score points with white queers. At any rate the effect of this has been to increase tensions between the white LGBT community and the straight people of color, and Gods help you if you're a LGBT person of color right now. How are we supposed to be working together to improve things for everyone who is at a disadvantage because of their race or sexuality or gender? Cleverly played, media fucks. Very clever indeed.

4) The queers who get all pissed off about Black people's homophobia intersect with the ones who think Shirley Q. Liquor is funny and don't see any problem with it. If Black people "should know better," these partcular LGBT people should also know better. There's a lot of racism in the (American, I don't know about the UK) queer community, and white queers hardly ever talk about it or address it. Which also has the effect of see above.

5) I don't like what Hardaway said, but look at the way he said it. He flat-out stated a belief, which is wrong, and a preference, which is informed by his prejudiced belief. He didn't say "faggots" or "queers" or advocate any action against us. It merits a response, sure, but it's gotten more response than it would have if he was white. Meanwhile, it's taken Rosie O'Donnell months and a YouTube video to finally come out with a slightly more sincere apology for her "ching chong" incident, and most of the response I heard to the initial event was tempered with "Well, it was a joke and she didn't mean it that way." She didn't lose her job over it. We're willing to tolerate casual racist humor thinly veiled and excused, but not obvious expressions of anti-gay prejudice with no attempt made to excuse them, and I think that's unjust and imbalanced.


Also, DM, yeah there should have been scare quotes around "exotic" indicating that it's exotic only with regard to the perspectives of the people who fetishize it. Sorry for any confusion.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
19:47 / 26.02.07
I have a few problems with some bits of this discussion, especially the "fetishisation" stuff. I am (if we go by physical appearance, at least) "white", and for reasons that i'm fairly certain have a lot more to do with simple visual aesthetics than with the history or politics of race and racism, i generally tend to find dark skin attractive, and i generally tend to find light skin unattractive (i think it may have to do with associations of dark skin equalling "warm" and "healthy" and light skin "cold" and "unhealthy" on a vague aesthetic level). Is this "fetishisation"? Is it racist?

(On a broader level, does this mean that any incidence of picking out a distinguishable feature of a person and finding people with that feature more attractive than people without it is "fetishisation"? And, in that case, is any sort of sexuality without "fetishisation" even possible? It's generally held as true that you can't consciously change who you fancy, after all - in fact, that's arguably one of the foundational arguments as to the wrongness of homophobia...)

(This post interrupted before posting, and before id's last post, which makes some of the other things i was possibly going to say in it less relevant. May come back to this one...)
 
 
Blake Head
19:54 / 26.02.07
id:

1) Racially-loaded language is the only one of the three possibilities that certainly I feel could be perceived in the clip, and I don’t know that we’ve established that yet as the fetishisation of black bodies you’re describing. This thread certainly has me thinking more about the context, particularly the context of race-relations in the U.S. that I for one have a much less immediate experience of, that the comments took place in, but I still don’t understand, re-formulating what DM was saying, whether the position you are representing resists all discursive mention of skin tone as being fetishistic, which I don’t think we’ve established, and accordingly I think there’s space for Takei (and the rest of us) to mention skin colour positively. Now that space, I think, has to be carefully delineated in terms of being aware of the use of such language for negative ends (and by that I mean outright racial insults and positive fetishisation) and clearly borders on spaces where language is used in a racist fashion, but I don’t see, and I will happily admit that it’s possible I’m being naïve about not seeing, why some people have decided that (on the basis of a very small amount of information) Takei’s comments should be interpreted as being racist as opposed to aesthetic. It’s clearly not difficult to make Hardaway sound ridiculous, but I think the relevancy or otherwise of noting his skin colour has little or nothing to do with that ridicule, unless it can be established that the comment substantially intersects with an intention to privilege one skin tone over another, which personally I think is unsupported in this case.

I won’t disagree that there’s a system that supports privilege in place, but it’s one thing saying that Black people have been represented as not owning their own bodies to stating that their images should be sacrosanct with regards to satire.

In some ways, I suppose my point is that I don’t see it as an issue of racism; I can see how it would be related to that, but it’s a more technical point about how we’re able to use language to refer to one another and where we draw the limits. I have no particular desire to discuss my friends as being olive-skinned or having skin like porcelain, but I suppose I expect the freedom to incorporate appreciation of skin tone, colour, where I might judge it’s appropriate to do so. I don’t see how that is mutually incompatible with not being informed about how narratives regarding skin tone have related historically to racial division, or how Takei, in this instance, is guilty of that.


2) I don’t understand in what sense an African American would be unable or would find it more controversial to mock fondle either another African American or in reverse of the current situation an Asian American. Genuinely, I don’t understand, controversial to whom? The U.S. media? Really?

Hardaway did of course respond, if indirectly, by recognising that what he said was unacceptable and that he needed to address those issues. I’m not aware of the timeline or the media presentation of these comments / Takei’s clip, but if Takei’s piece, designed as you say to embarrass and disturb Hardaway, forced him even partially to address these issues publicly then they’ve been laudable in that regard. I mean he could have sent him a nice e-mail as well asking him to get more informed, but those are so much easier to ignore.

3) I don’t understand how Takei, as an individual in the media, intersects with the biases of the media in general that you discuss (and would be quite prepared to take your word on generally). Or how, as a gay Asian American, he should be excluded from criticising, in whatever form, a sexuality and lifestyle that he’s invested in, because it might take pressure away from white queers who have also have a responsibility to address it or contributes (perhaps) to ongoing underhand validations of racism against Black people.

4) Mainly, I don’t understand what Shirley Q. Liquor is.

5) Well, Hardaway hasn’t lost his job yet, from what I understand he’s been excluded from a high profile media event because of his comments. And I agree that at least he was being truthful. But at the same time he was actively making American sport less hospitable (not wanting homosexuals in the locker rooms) and by extension making the workplace in general less welcoming for gay people, and I think the contrary principle is worth defending vigorously. As a public figure of any colour he should have known better, and personally I have little sympathy for his shame or him being temporarily prevented from fully being able to perform his job, as that’s just what he’s tried to restrict other people from doing. I hope he’s genuine about realising he needs to change his views.

I agree that the situation might be imbalanced but I can’t bring myself to say I wish that this controversy should have less attention and not just that others should have more. It’s possible that that’s informed by a much lesser proximity to the frustration of American media.

I really like the very fair-minded and generous YouTube clip.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:38 / 26.02.07
Well, Hardaway hasn’t lost his job yet

Point of information - Hardaway doesn't have a job, per se, or at least Hardaway is no longer a pro basketball player, although he has been relieved of his duties as Trinty Sports Chief Basketball Operations Advisor.

I think it is worth pointing out that this is not an entirely abstracted discussion: Hardaway was responding not to a question asked in the spirit of disinterested inquiry, but in the face of John Amaechi (a black, male, basketball player) coming out as gay. He and other players made various statements which will have an impact on how other gay basketball players will feel about themselves and the likelihood of their being accepted as gay men in their chosen field of endeavour. In Britain, our first openly gay footballer ended up hanging himself in a lock-up garage. The world of pro sports may seem very distant from our concerns, and its practitioners pampered, spoiled, overpaid and largely gittish, but what happens in and around it is not impactful only for its trickle-down effect.
 
 
Dead Megatron
00:50 / 27.02.07
Also, DM, yeah there should have been scare quotes around "exotic" indicating that it's exotic only with regard to the perspectives of the people who fetishize it. Sorry for any confusion.

Actualy, id, I thought so from the get go, but mentioned it anyway because I found the way you phrased it brought forth interest and relevant points to be addressed (i.e., "limits" and also the need to phrase things carefully). Rest assured tha not for a moment did I think you were accidentally revealing any lingering racism on your part.


As, as a side comment, being a big time fetishizer myself, I can totally understand the dangers - and moral issues - of fetishizing people instead of things (or, at most, settings and situations). I'm still on Takei's side on this, first because I like and admire him, while don't know or care about the other guy (not a basketball fan at all), second because the video was funny to me, and lastly, because, frankly, Hardaway started it and thus asked for it. But I see how good old Sulu may have overstepped his move a little bit.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:21 / 27.02.07
Well, I think the point is that, while Hardaway might have asked for something, other black people might not have asked for George Takei to legitimise that kind of approach as a justified response to not being happy with a black person's behaviour and, by extension, the queer community might not be best served by feeling that this is a useful approach to dealing with a homophobic statement made by a black celebrity.

Actually, a possibly interesting comparison might be the expressions of sexual desire by gay men for Eminem, which I think functioned in a similar way, but without the same skin colour interrelation.

However, I also think id is going down a dangerous and somewhat pointless alley with the idea that Hardaway was simply expressing a preference or an opinion, and that he did so without using hate speech. His preference was for gay people not to exist.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:29 / 27.02.07
(i think it may have to do with associations of dark skin equalling "warm" and "healthy" and light skin "cold" and "unhealthy" on a vague aesthetic level). Is this "fetishisation"? Is it racist?

What do we think, readers? Is it racist fetishisation to associate dark skin with warmth and health? One might equally ask if it was racist fetishisation to associate dark skin with natural rhythm, being good at dancing, or somehow being more in tune with the spiritual realm.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:39 / 27.02.07
While we're here, is it racist for me to associate white skin with moral rectitude and manifest destiny?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:54 / 27.02.07
Sorry, being frivolous there. I already know the answer to that, and also why it is not the same thing - because one is an ideological association, the other a vague aesthetic association. It's where a word like "fitness" becomes quite interesting - one can associate dark skin with fitness and white skin with fitness simultaneously, and mean very different things by the same word.

Perhaps the issue is not "am I fetishising or ascribing qualities without reference to the person based on my perception of racial origin?" as much as "is this making me act like a dick?" People have instinctive and unconsidered responses to all sorts of things - I don't like text speak, Tim Hardaway doesn't like homosexuals, George Takei affects to like sexy homophobes. A simple shut mouth can have enormous implications for how that plays out, though.
 
 
Ex
11:14 / 27.02.07
You said 'rectitude'. Hehe.

Black people signifying warmth, emotion and physical welbeing while white people represent coolness, restraint and alienation from the body goes a way back - it's used a lot in Uncle Tom's Cabin a lot. The narator makes asides including (of 'The negro'): 'he has, deep in his heart, a passion for all that is splendid, rich, and fanciful; a passion which, rudely indulged by an untrained taste, draws on them the ridicule of the colder and more correct white race.'

Beecher Stowe is trying to make the case against slavery, but does so by emphasising good qualities in African-American people (religious, earnest, good mimics) as thought they're a big homogenous lump. It's a simple reversal tactic which seemed like a terribly good idea given her context but still absolutely divides people on the basis of their races, taping a load of assumptions onto their skin colour (plenty of people knocked it at the time, even).

I'm not picking on your response as an unusual thing, nataraja - I just believe that cultural conditioning works through aesthetics, through sexual attraction, through 'instinctive' responses that we'd prefer were outside considerations of loaded categories and power relations. People don't think 'I should probably, because of my history and social position, find that funny/erotic/uncomfortable', we think 'that's hilarious/sexy/icky'. I have reactions which I can trace back to some dodgy assumptions, and they feel very instinctual. I just try to remind myself that feelings are not necessarily 'natural, they're not outside culture, and they're often quite unoriginal, so acting on them may hurt someone, or make me look like a dick. As Haus said.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:53 / 27.02.07
I'm not picking on your response as an unusual thing, nataraja - I just believe that cultural conditioning works through aesthetics, through sexual attraction, through 'instinctive' responses that we'd prefer were outside considerations of loaded categories and power relations.

Absolutely, and I hope that the tone of the suggestion that one can separate political, ideological, personal and purely aesthetic responses so neatly in my post was clear. Simply put, I don't think one can. I'm not at all convinced, in fact, that there is a pure aesthetic response, at least not to another human being. Which makes both NRJ and Blake Head's comments, above, interesting, since, in effect, both are drawing a clear distinction between drawing attention to Hardaway's blackness (or, if you'd rather, the darkness of his skin) in an unacceptable way and an accceptable way, and the acceptable way is "purely aesthetic".

NRJ:

for reasons that i'm fairly certain have a lot more to do with simple visual aesthetics than with the history or politics of race and racism

Blake Head:

Now that space, I think, has to be carefully delineated in terms of being aware of the use of such language for negative ends (and by that I mean outright racial insults and positive fetishisation) and clearly borders on spaces where language is used in a racist fashion, but I don’t see, and I will happily admit that it’s possible I’m being naïve about not seeing, why some people have decided that (on the basis of a very small amount of information) Takei’s comments should be interpreted as being racist as opposed to aesthetic.

This presupposes a clear line between the one and the other -in effect "good", aesthetic response to racially significant characteristics and "bad", ideological response. This is a very useful line to have, because apart from anything else it allows one neatly to draw the line about an inch beyond where one might want to put one's hand.

I'm not sure, personally, whether one can really pull apart those two poles. However, the case here is further complicated because Takei is not simply _reacting_. He has not been attached to a plethysmograph and shown pictures of Hardaway. He is reciting, for a comedy show, a script that he or somebody else has written in order to achieve a series of goals. That changes the position a little.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
16:46 / 27.02.07
I didn't say that my (or anyone's) aesthetic likes or dislikes were "good", or apolitical, and i'm fully willing to concede that there may be cultural conditioning inherent in my aesthetics. (I also think there's probably a good dollop of self-hate in there, but that's probably somewhat separate). However, i think i fairly carefully said not "black people" and "white people", but "dark skin" and "light skin" - ie, to make it clear that the aesthetic feelings i have are associated with the physical characteristic, not with race, politics or culture.

If that's still racist, then presumably absolutely any aesthetic association of positive or negative qualities with a physical characteristic associated with a "race" is racist - which leads to the (frankly untenable in anything approaching a real world, IMO) conclusion that, in order to not be racist, we would have to not notice (or at least, not associate with anything) people's physical appearance. That, i think, is not only incredibly unrealistic (unless you seriously want to aim for some sort of misguidedly-pseudo-Gnostic ideology where the body is entirely irrelevant, and caring about it in any way is seen as a sign of prejudice and weakness), it's also, if we're talking about a situation of being attracted to someone, frankly fucking insulting. If your lover was of a different colour to you, would you like hir to say ze didn't care about your skin colour, and found it irrelevant, or to find your skin colour attractive and associate it with positive attributes? I know i'd prefer the latter.

Also, while i dislike drawing comparisons that imply equivalence between "race" and gender (mainly because i think the latter is a real and biologically valid category, whereas the former isn't), if it's racist to find bodies of one skin colour more attractive than those of another, then i think it is a logical extension of that to say that, likewise, it's sexist to find bodies of one physical gender more attractive than those of another - so, am I also a sexist for finding female bodies attractive and male bodies (including my own) repulsive (and having aesthetic associations, similar to the ones about skin colour mentioned above, of male bodies with ugliness, violence, stupidity and brutality)?

Now trying to get back to the initial subject. There's a part of me that thinks that, if you're a homophobe, you frankly deserve to be a victim of racism, and vice versa. However, i agree that that isn't really helpful, if combating prejudice of all types is your objective. I do think that a lot of the outrage specifically over "black" homophobia (see also Peter Tatchell vs. various reggae artists) has to do with the implication of a blatant lack of solidarity - the "but you of all people, with the parallel prejudice you've experienced, should know what it's like for us and sympathise" factor.

In response to that, i think there are at least two things that are important to consider: firstly, the fact that enmity between different minorities is useful to the establishment in preventing coalitions of dissent, and therefore that, consciously or unconsciously, the old "divide and rule" tactic will always be present - thus, all kinds of tactics get invented in order to prevent sympathy and solidarity occurring between minority groups, including media portrayals (both blatant and more subtle), agencies set up to conbat one type of prejudice being put into financial or political conflict with those set up to combat another, the exploitation of demographic statistics to manipulate a "zero-sum" model of identity politics, etc.

Secondly (which is really a specific incidence of the first type of thing, on a longer historical scale), with particular relevance to the "black = homophobic" and "gay = racist (and specifically racist-against-people-of-African-descent)" stereotypes, the historical role of religion in the African diaspora has a lot of influence, IMO - specifically, the widespread use of liberation theologies rooted in Christianity, with the European imperial powers compared to the Roman empire, and homosexuality being identified as a) something deriving from, and existing only in, European (Graeco-Roman) culture(s), and b) a "symptom" of imperial decadence. There's also a big class factor in this, with (male) homosexuality being identified with aristocratic, "spoilt" stereotypes, and associated with parasitism both literal and figurative. (This isn't helped by the most prominent homosexual figures in popular media being the likes of Elton John or Graham Norton, who are hugely and extravagantly rich, friends of the royals, etc).

Hence things like (to take a recent example) Phi Life Cypher's album being peppered with references to "homosexual MPs" etc, despite having an otherwise sound and coherent socialist and anti-imperialist critique of society - while i doubt he was being that explicitly political in his associations, i think it's at least possible to put George Hardaway's homophobia in a similar context...

OK there was other stuff i was going to say, but i'm frankly too intellectually and emotionally exhausted to think of it right now, and i think i've already written far too much for a post in conversation. I'm willing to take this to Head Shop (probably at a later date tho, due to having a lot on at the moment) if anyone wants me to...
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
16:52 / 27.02.07
Also, i think i forgot to say, i think it's very possible that even the (tentative) "warmth/health" vs "cold/sickness" association might be a bit of a reach, an attempt to intellectualise and/or rationalise an aesthetic feeling which, actually, i think, comes down to a simple, unreasoning preference, which the associations are an attempt to grope for a rational context for. Perhaps trying to put such an irrational aesthetic feeling into a pseudo-rational context is actually more dangerous (in terms of bringing one into ideologically dodgy teritory) than having the irrational preference itself?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:58 / 27.02.07
(and having aesthetic associations, similar to the ones about skin colour mentioned above, of male bodies with ugliness, violence, stupidity and brutality)?

Aesthetic. You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Sorry - hit post too early. Joking aside, we're asking aesthetics to do a lot of work here - in effect, to do exactly what ratiocination would usually do, but on a totally instinctive and thus somehow blameless way. I don't think that that's something that aesthetics is designed to do, exactly.

Take art. If one looks at a piece of art, one can have an aesthetic response, certainly. But if you start saying "this piece of art makes me think of violence, ugliness, stupidity, etc", then your response is mediated - it is not an unmediated aesthetic response. So, actually, if you think that your original comment was an attempt to mediate a purely aesthetic response to "dark" and "light" skin (and I agree with Ex here that the difference, in particular in the context of this thread, seems reverse-engineered) - that is, that you simply like dark skin, that dark skin is to you aesthetically and/or sexually attractive, without rhyme or reason then we have to look again at the question:

Is this "fetishisation"?

And offer a resounding "yes". That's exactly what a fetish is. is that racist? Well, a fetish isn't really racist or non-racist, is it? Some fetishes, however, might lead one to situations, actions or ways of thinking which might make it more likely that a lack of consideration for the complexities of racial diversity, certainly. But that's a case-by-case, I think.
 
 
Ex
17:04 / 27.02.07
I'm sorry that I said 'black people' when you'd been referring to skin - that was a small leap. However, I also didn't say 'racist' (as in 'it is racist to notice this/feel this'). I don't think it's helpful to name one response or action 'racist'. 'Potentially supporting unhelpful categorisations about race' is about as far as I'd go, and then it's still all about how you use those observations, in what context you make them, and so forth. Picking out one individual thing and saying 'that's racist!' when so much of culture is racist seems a bit isolat-y and finger-pointy.

which leads to the (frankly untenable in anything approaching a real world, IMO) conclusion that, in order to not be racist, we would have to not notice (or at least, not associate with anything) people's physical appearance.

I don't see this myself - I don't feel as though I shouldn't notice anything about a person's physical appearance in case I'm racist (or sexist). I do think that in addition to my first associations and attractions, I should take note of anything that could be affecting my observations.

I don't think to myself: 'Stop being atracted to X feature, it's potentially a racialised characteristic and thus racist' - I do think 'Have a look at the assumptions that are making that feature particularly attractive. Are they a bit conservative/judgemental? If I coveyed them to the person I fancy, would they find them refreshing and complementary, or a warmed-over pile of old stereotypes?' Sometimes even: 'Why don't I find the opposite attractive? What meanings am I sticking on that binary?'
 
 
Ex
17:23 / 27.02.07
(Incidentally, I'm deliberately not giving examples of that process, not because I want to maintain the moral highground, but so as to not fill the board with the more fucked-up bits of my head while claiming to be helping analyse racism.

To try to give a wince-free example - I took a couple of characteristics I find attractive just now, and ran them through my bollocks detector.
I've worked out that I'm in part attracted to people if they're doing something different from a racial stereotype I have about them. The original attraction feels instinctual, and I could describe the features that I like in entirely aesthetic terms - but when it gets down to it, I think that's a big part of it. And I don't think that ignoring that would be any help - not in a world-peace way, not in a getting-me-sex way.
So - not a pretty thing to notice myself doing, but it could have been a lot more embarassing if I hadn't noticed it, and if I'd tried to build anything other than a wistful glance on a crowded train on it.)
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:27 / 27.02.07
Wow, people, if only I could explain myself so clearly nd compreensively as you guys do! Kudoz to nataraja, my man Haus and Ex. For a thread that begun with "hy, look the funy joke that Star Trek guy did", this has got really Head-Shoppy.

Me, I do like darker skin better. Not necessarily "black" skin, but tanned skin. Why? Because too pale skin makes me think of anemy, crazy agoraphobic shut-ins, blind animals from deep caves, and really long, cold winters, none of which I find particularly attractive or enticing.

Maybe the dark skin's supposed higher attractiveness stems from that: its association with more solar, tropical, parts of the world (in addition to what was said above, of course), where people would get out more and use ess clothes. Not that it's right, though, it's still a cliché for sure. And an outdated one...

Also, isn't "cultural conditioning" a redundancy? You know, kinda like "society's repression". Isn't culture supposed to condition us?
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:30 / 27.02.07
Sorry, by "anemy" I mean "anemia" (from the Greek "without blood")
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:30 / 27.02.07
Leaving us glossy and manageable...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:34 / 27.02.07
Out of interest, DM, would you feel as comfortable listing all the very ickiest things that dark skin makes you think of?
 
 
Blake Head
20:38 / 27.02.07
On reflection, I’d agree that a purely aesthetic approach is probably a non-starter with regard to applying it between individuals, following the difficulty you point out of separating such from motives personal, ideological and political. What I might propose is that is that a particular scene or text or situation could be analysed with one of those motives as a limiting factor: it may not be possible to disentangle one’s initial personal reaction to another individual or their actions, but it might be functionally possible to analyse those actions where, if not ever completely, one attempted to examine them using one specific aperture rather than many, and conclude which were most significant.

With regard to Takei, that his desire for Hardaway has been presented in a fictional setting (whether it’s sincere or not) in some ways gives us less or less complex information to work with, which might be helpful in determining the scope of any enquiry. In this case, we’re not trying to establish what motives and in what degree informed Takei’s word-choice (or whoever wrote it), we’re analysing a skit in which we might ask “can this be read in terms of a purely aesthetic response to Hardaway’s attractiveness / skin tone?” or “can this word-choice be read in terms of a politicised reference to Hardaway’s racial identity?”, but if we can answer those questions then we might also be able to evaluate on that basis which questions are most relevant to the most plausible intention we might attribute to the design of the clip as represented by the text.

And as said otherwise above, it’s likely inevitable and not unbeneficial for subject matter that considers skin tone to be questioned on the basis of its relation to racial associations; the matter was whether that question resulted in answers that complicated the most superficial reading of it.

For me, the clip can be interpreted as a coherent fabrication of desire that operates on a largely personal/aesthetic basis; as a viewer I am sufficiently convinced by Takei’s impersonation of someone who finds hunky homophobes attractive, the appreciation of their skin tone does not seem inconsistent with that, this is conflated with positive personal associations that chocolate is a good thing, delectable, a guilty pleasure etc.

And I do think the question of the racial identities of both parties is relevant, and in terms of how this fits into an existing narrative regarding U.S. race relations I’m aware that I’m not necessarily the best person to be examining that context, but in terms of the clip itself, rather than the context it exists in, I would need to be substantially more convinced that as a text it is evidently more politicised than it purports to be. We could question whether Takei was, or was supposed to appear, to be attracted towards Hardaway on the basis of some sort of fetishisation of racial traits, and I don’t think we could actively rule that out, but contrasting one coherent narrative with the suggestion that there is a secondary narrative on the basis of a very general context and one, otherwise innocuous reference to skin tone, seems, to me, unsupported by the text. As it is, I think there’s too little information forthcoming to determine any solid secondary narratives that would displace or significantly complicate the initial reading of the scene which relies on the supposition of it being presented as an aesthetic interaction because that’s what seems to be clearest.

Apologies if this is a bit unclear, it’s been a bit of a rough day, I do think the discussion around fetishes is another interesting strand of this and want to see where people are going with it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:42 / 27.02.07
Not that it's right, though, it's still a cliché for sure. And an outdated one...

I'm so glad you worked that out, Megsie.

The tanned-skin-on-Europeans good/bad thing is quite interesting from a cultural perspective. One theory goes thus: Once upon a time, paler skin was considered more attractive because of associations with wealth. Poorer people tended to work outdoors in the sun, and thus to be tanned, whereas the well-to-do could afford to loaf about inside (x-ref derogatory terms still in use today, eg "rednecks"). More recently, as the less well-off were pushed from the fields to the factories and the well-to-do started going on foreign holidays, pale skin became seen as less attractive and the expensive tropical tan became an essential pre-requisite for beauty. (See also fat/skinny.)
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:55 / 27.02.07
Out of interest, DM, would you feel as comfortable listing all the very ickiest things that dark skin makes you think of?

Excellent point, Haus. I guess I would be confortable to, but to be honest dark skin does not make me think of icky things. Perhaps this is indicative of some unconscious (reverse?) racism and fetishization of a ethnic group on my part. I'll have to think about it a bit.

I should point out, though, that by "pale skin" I meant "really, really pale skin" (you know, literally milky white, wiht blue veins showing*). Very few people have white enough skin to make me go "eewww". But, the more tanned, the better.


* movies about sexy vampires never quite worked with me, for instance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:01 / 27.02.07
I just realised that I have effectively asked you if you would be prepared to move something from the inside of your head to the outside, DM. I apologise for what can only be seen as a frivolous line of inquiry.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:02 / 27.02.07
BH, I hate to say it, but I think what you just said was that you agree entirely that you can't describe the sexualisation of black skin as a purely aesthetic phenomenon, but that in this case the sexualisation of black skin can be described as a purely aesthetic phenomenon. In this case, I don't think that the text supports the curtailment of possible readings to the point where you identify what is not supported by the text.

However, Takei is indeed performing in a sketch, which means he or somebody else got to script the description. This is certainly an issue, but not one which functions, I think, in quite the way you position it. It does mean that there was at least one review session where they could have taken that word out, and prevented the kind of problems in approving of the message that we are finding here, and also avoiding giving reactionaries who would generally cross the road to avoid a black man the opportunity to make this about race, and progressives the dilemma of having to work out whose offence is most deserving of attention in the interests of advancing a broader anti-prejudicial agenda.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:02 / 27.02.07
On that note of pale skin and cultural conditioning. I understand that in Japan, tanning of the skin is considered very UNattractive, to the point people don't take their shirts off at the beach. Maybe this is so because, historically speaking, the Japanese people never had much contact with African people as the Europeans did, and thus the concept of darker skin as "exotic" and "fetishizible"* was never introduced in that particular culture.

I only speculate, of course.



* I'm pretty sure this is not the right word, but what the heck..
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:05 / 27.02.07
Thing is, Megs, that eww-ewww veiny white skin is, or was, perfectly "healthy" at one point in history. While people whose forebears come from regions with more sun and needed protection therefrom (hence melanin), Gran and Grandad White'n'veiny hailed from cooler climes where scrounging sufficient vitamin D from the weak sunlight was more of a priority healthwise. There's nothing more or less healthy about being pale or being dark.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:06 / 27.02.07
And Haus, I may be being naive, but I didn't find it frivolous at all. In fact, you made me stop and question myself, damn you.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:10 / 27.02.07
Thing is, Megs, that eww-ewww veiny white skin is, or was, perfectly "healthy" at one point in history. While people whose forebears come from regions with more sun and needed protection therefrom (hence melanin), Gran and Grandad White'n'veiny hailed from cooler climes where scrounging sufficient vitamin D from the weak sunlight was more of a priority healthwise. There's nothing more or less healthy about being pale or being dark.

Rationally spaking, I know you are righ. My opinion comes solely from early childhood conditioning. I was a very indoorsy, lonely kid, and my dad used to pushed me into going out and play, in his very tactless ways, by saying "Go be in the sun a little, you look sick, pale like that"...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:39 / 27.02.07
And they say the age of miracles is past.

Meanwhile:

associated with the physical characteristic, not with race

natarjah, would you accept that 'race' doesn't actually exist as anything more than a social/cultural/political construct based around physical characteristics?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
22:23 / 27.02.07
Yes, and that was, at least partially, the point i was making. As i said in my last post i think the latter [gender] is a real and biologically valid category, whereas the former [race] isn't.

I should probably have put "race" in quotation marks, but then, Haus has said that that habit makes me sound like Darkseid...
 
 
Blake Head
23:23 / 27.02.07
Haus: possibly, but my brain it is groggy.

What I thought I was saying or should have said was that I agreed that in real terms it would be difficult unto impossible to separate any individual’s internal sexualisation of black skin as an aesthetic phenomenon from the ideological and experiential associations that inform or construct their viewpoint. But I don’t know that I accept that those different modes are so integrated that we can’t abstract them and use them in an idealised fashion as interpretative models. This might not be very useful with regards to examining the interiority of those individuals performing such a sexualisation, but I was more hopeful it could be applied to a limited, exteriorised example of sexualisation that (I think) we’re dealing with here.

My point would be that, convenience of reactionaries and progressives aside, the editing or lack of in the sketch didn’t present itself as a problem to me, because while the choice of terms may have been unnecessary, in terms of being inessential to the construction of a fictitious desire, it felt consistent with the presentation of a certain kind of fiction about the ways in which we are attracted to others. Because of its contingency AG obviously brought up why it was mentioned at all, and it’s worth asking, but I’ve yet to understand how it could be seen as a structured attack on Hardaway’s racial identity. Within that understanding, I wouldn’t say I think it should be described as a purely aesthetic phenomenon, because I don’t think the text is that limited, but that I interpreted it as primarily aesthetic because I felt that was the strongest interpretative model. I’ll accept that the insincere sexualisation of Hardaway’s skin taking place could be interpreted as a mixture of aesthetic and fetishistic because all we’re presented with is unjustified personal assertion, but I don’t see what that adds our reading when we’re unable to form any significant views on what those hypothetical fetishistic associations might be, or how they might relate to the character’s ideological convictions, as nothing else in the text would seem to explicitly reinforce any particular view. So really I go back to the aesthetic model because for me it describes the situation best: we can assume the necessity of the character having varied associations to do with skin tone, if that’s how we think individuals and their viewpoints are formed, and we can conjecture about what they might be, with little to go on apart from that skin tone was mentioned, but that model doesn’t tell us very much substantial about what we’re looking at.

The other point, and somewhere back there I think this might have been my motivation for piping up, was that despite the potential for other interpretations, the possibility of a primarily aesthetic response from any individual doesn’t feel like it should be excluded from the range of possible interpretations, it feels important to me that that's left in and could be broadly characterised as such if other interpretations are not equally as applicable or useful.

I may of course be wrong about whether that is indeed the situation in this case.

In short, it should be possible to comment on skin tone and not have that comment necessarily tied to a multiplicity of other associations beyond the descriptive or aesthetic unless there are clear, demonstrable reasons for doing so. Why we’re actually mentioning skin tone and what has informed our personal sense of aesthetics and set of associations is of course quite a bit more involved, but it’s not quite what I’d addressing above.

Possibly I should give it up for the night and go doodle plans for setting up hunkyhomophobes.com.
 
 
HCE
00:12 / 28.02.07
I would like to state for the record that I have reversed my earlier position about the term 'chocolatey'. I think I may not have read it the way others here are reading it because I'm too close to that kind of attitude. I've read the arguments here in favor of reading the comment as somewhere between unhelpful/insensitive and outright racist, and I think those arguments are more sound than the ones in favor of reading it as neutral or without any negative connotation. I still don't think Takei meant it that way, but then who cares; that's not the issue.
 
 
*
00:47 / 28.02.07
However, I also think id is going down a dangerous and somewhat pointless alley with the idea that Hardaway was simply expressing a preference or an opinion, and that he did so without using hate speech. His preference was for gay people not to exist.

Not that it makes it any better, but no—I understood Hardaway to be saying that homosexuality should not exist, and for someone who (presumably, since it's a standard position for Christian social conservatives in the US who condemn homosexuality) does not see homosexuality as an integral part of a person's identity but rather a practice that one can choose to engage in or not, I think those two things are not interchangeable. This is not to say what he said is excusable, because it's not—it's prejudiced as all get out and it does deserve to be addressed—but I've heard lots worse from white people who weren't subjected to nearly this kind of outcry.

For the record, Hardaway had already been forced to apologize, since the introduction to the video has Jimmy Kimball saying he'd been forced to apologize.

I will return to this thread somewhat later, but I'm gonna take some more time and digest the topic a little more. It's actually been causing me no end of frustration trying to sort through, and that's way more time and anguish than it really deserves.
 
  

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