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George "Sulu" Takei responds to Tim Hardaway's homophobic remarks

 
  

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Liger Null
22:02 / 24.02.07
I don't suppose Takei would relish being compared to a packet of burned-out oven chips, or related - really, in what sense is the colour of Hardaway's skin relevant here?

Quite relevant, given that Black people have been historically subject to much of the same forms of discrimination as gay people. I think that the (non-derogatory, in this context) mention of Hardaway's skin color could just be Takei's way of calling attention to that fact, and the subsequent need for greater sympathy on Hardaway's part.


He does look terribly in need of attention, and not all of it medical, either.

On the contrary, I think George is very attractive for a man his age. He's like, what, seventy?
 
 
Ganesh
22:56 / 24.02.07
Is there really a causal link between virulent homophobia and suppressed homosexual urges? Surely there are some known cases of it, are they statistically significant, or is their importance amplified by the dramatic sense of nemesis? Has anyone done a study?

Yes, there's research. Homophobic males show statistically different results on plethysmograph studies compared with non-homophobic males ie. they get bigger stiffies when shown man-on-man porn. They don't get bigger stiffies when shown het or lesbian porn.

It's claimed that that might be down to higher anxiety levels. Sounds like fairly hott anxiety to me...
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:52 / 24.02.07
"I hate because you make me feel funny", eh?

So, let me se if I got this right: to mention one's racial traits as an attractive feature makes you racist?*

Personnaly, I think Takei is a basketball playerist...**




* this is a serious question, btw

** this is not a seriou comment
 
 
Papess
23:56 / 24.02.07
Gosh. Takei was mocking desire.

Damn, my people's skin gets compared to olives, for pete's sake.

Pukey, green, freakin' olives!
 
 
Tom Coates
00:47 / 25.02.07
I thought it was wonderful, I have to say. I loved the unashamedness of it. I love the lack of seriousness and apology. I liked the fact that it satirised the basketball player's assumptions about what gay people were like. The evil laugh that no one would really believe. Awesome piece of work. Really cool.

And I have to say, I don't have any problem with the chocolatey comment either. I can see how it could have been a weird strategy, but from my position it's a sexy descriptive term to a trait of a fellow human, in the same way you might see a woman's skin described as coffee-coloured in dodgy sex scenes in bad novels. I think if there was some causal link concerned between his ethnicity and his homophobia, that would be highly problematic. Or if the comment intimated that there was something negative about him as a consequence of his skin colour. But I don't see that here.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
06:16 / 25.02.07
Hm. Well personally, I think if I was overheard referring to someobody's 'chocolatey' skin at a social occasion, I'd expect to get hit fairly hard as a result. 'Chocolate', in the UK anyway, is a reasonably well-established term of racial abuse; I'm guessing you'd have to know the individual concerned very well before you could bring up the beauty of their 'chocolatey' pigmentation without the strong possibility of being asked to just go away, and not come back.

Had the homophobic ball-player in question been a pale caucasian, would Takei have brought the colour of his skin up at all? It's difficult to say, but my feeling is; doubtful, probably not.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
06:39 / 25.02.07
We've had basketball players in the States name themselves Chocolate Thunder, and White Chocolate. The Mayor of New Orleans talked about his hopes that New Orleans would be a chocolate city again after Katrina. Again I'm not sure about the UK but I can't remember ever hearing chocolate used in a negative way about black people over here.
 
 
Triplets
06:52 / 25.02.07
'Chocolate', in the UK anyway, is a reasonably well-established term of racial abuse

I believe Errol Brown would want to have words about this.

With you.

About this.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
07:05 / 25.02.07
It's hard to imagine a wannabe, or actually, elected official in, I don't know, Manchester saying anything like that, certainly. It seems safe to assume they'd be busted back to traffic, in the broad, existential sense.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:12 / 25.02.07
'Nesh, really? That's... well, that's just hilarious. In a horrible sort of way.
 
 
Dead Megatron
07:47 / 25.02.07
Had the homophobic ball-player in question been a pale caucasian, would Takei have brought the colour of his skin up at all? It's difficult to say, but my feeling is; doubtful, probably not.

Well, he could say something about his "beautiful blue/green eyes", which is a tipically caucasian trait many find more attractive than "regular" brown eyes....
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:54 / 25.02.07
Caucasian hair gets made quite a fuss of too.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
08:05 / 25.02.07
Errol Brown.

Well he's an enigma wrapped up in a puzzle that's a crossword clue, one that's arguably been responsible for some terrible records.

I see what you're saying, but as a fan of NWA, I'd still feel a bit uncomfortable about sailing up to Dr Dre or Ice Cube over drinks and snacks with the salutation 'Yo, my n*****! Blood!' Although not as uncomfortable as I imagine I'd feel shortly afterwards.

As an old lady, I think it would be all right for me to start a band called something like The Old Bats, debut album '...Have Gone Bonkers'; we'd sing about Bailey's Irish Cream, the afternoon racing, and going on sex cruises to somewhere sunny with cash that would be better spent on anything other than being a leathery old vampire, or that sort of thing.

But this terrible idea would only be acceptable coming from an old lady who'd lived the life, basically. And possibly not even then.

The point is that I, as an older, but still very beautiful person, can say anything I like about rest homes and so on, about retirement communities, in a way that it would be hard to justify if I wasn't hooked up to a lot of morphine at the moment, in a place I wonder if I'll ever leave.

I'm feeling quite floaty now, but essentially, I'm not sure if being in 'Hot Chocolate' would mean it was any less depressing to hear yourself described that way, behind your back.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:16 / 25.02.07
We've had basketball players in the States name themselves Chocolate Thunder, and White Chocolate. The Mayor of New Orleans talked about his hopes that New Orleans would be a chocolate city again after Katrina. Again I'm not sure about the UK but I can't remember ever hearing chocolate used in a negative way about black people over here.

I think Alex's Grandma is right that (as I noted on the previous page) "chocolate" has more history in the UK of being used by white people deliberately and insultingly or with misguided, patronising affection about black people's skin colour.
 
 
Liger Null
23:16 / 25.02.07
Hm. Well personally, I think if I was overheard referring to someobody's 'chocolatey' skin at a social occasion, I'd expect to get hit fairly hard as a result.

I'd still feel a bit uncomfortable about sailing up to Dr Dre or Ice Cube over drinks and snacks with the salutation 'Yo, my n*****! Blood!' Although not as uncomfortable as I imagine I'd feel shortly afterwards.

I might be reading too much into these comments Granny, but what makes you think that Black people are so likely to respond to such remarks with violence?

I believe it was Haus who said "When blowing the whistle on casual racism, try to avoid casual racism."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:34 / 25.02.07
On the same tack, I'm not _wild_ about the speculation on possible ways to describe George Takei's skin colour, personally.
 
 
*
06:30 / 26.02.07
I can't believe as many people as are here defending this didn't find Takei's comments racist. It embarassed me. I felt humiliated and had to stop watching, which was a pity because I found it pretty hilarious up until that point. Fetishizing people for exotic traits is a slightly different manifestation of racism than ostracizing people for them, but it's still a manifestation of racism. Takei, if he's spent any length of time around Asian-fetishizing gay men, could probably tell you that.

Using racism to respond to homophobia as a way of pointing out that homophobia is just like racism is also a poor coalition-building tactic.

I've been hearing black LGBT and straight people point out how often black men are getting called out for their homophobia lately and how white gays are not as frequently challenged for their racism. Maybe some of this has to do with the subtlety of expressions of racism nowadays as compared to those of homophobia—apparently it's not blatantly obvious that commenting on racialized features in a sarcastically fetishizing way is racist, while it would take someone really not very clued in to read "I don't like gay people. I'm homophobic." as anything less than homophobic. It's still not helping matters.
 
 
Dead Megatron
08:13 / 26.02.07
Fetishizing people for exotic traits is a slightly different manifestation of racism than ostracizing people for them

Well, just to play devil's advocate here, by that account, wouldn't it be to consider African-descendant people's skin collor as an "exotic" trait, as you seem to be doing, a form of racism as well?

(this is not sarcasm, btw, I'm really wondering. In fact, I think I made that same question upthread, using other terms)
 
 
ghadis
08:19 / 26.02.07
I think that's the point that MRI is making DM.
 
 
Dead Megatron
08:40 / 26.02.07
I know, I'm just saying the ze migh be commiting the same mistake ze is accusing Takei of, by describring African-American's skin collor as "exotic". I mean, if any mention of a racial trait is racism, then...
 
 
jentacular dreams
08:44 / 26.02.07
Fetishizing people for exotic traits is a slightly different manifestation of racism than ostracizing people for them, but it's still a manifestation of racism.

Hmmm, I have to wonder though, where is the line? At what point does fetishising any physical trait common in people of a particular subgroup stop being racism? For example, Kamalaksha, sanscrit for "lotus eyes", is a romantic adjective, but also a fetishising of a physical trait common to those from the indian subcontinent and south east asia - so, PC or not? Similarly can you say that waxing lyrical over one's partner's blond(e) hair, describing it as silken threads of molten sunlight is also racist?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:46 / 26.02.07
It's not the mentioning that's the issue here, Megsie--it's whether or not Takei was displaying a racist fetishisation of Hardaway's ethnicity. Referring to someone's skin as "chocolatey" when you're in the middle of a lengthy paen to that person's sexy sexyness is not necessarily a neutral comment, esp. if the person doing the referring is of a different ethnicity than the one referred to.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:51 / 26.02.07
Well, I don't know about "lotus eyes" because I don't know who is applying it to whom, although is certainly sounds as if it's being applied by members of one ethnic group to other members of that same ethnic group. Ditto the hair like threads of molten etc etc thing--that's usually one white person talking about another white person. If it was a nonwhite person doing the describing then yeah, we're getting into ethnic fetishisation here too.
 
 
jentacular dreams
09:08 / 26.02.07
But isn't that a bit like saying one can't be racist about one's own race?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:19 / 26.02.07
You can't fetshise your own race in the same way. Your own race, by definition, is not exotic.
 
 
Dead Megatron
09:21 / 26.02.07
MC, I understand that. I'm just worried about, as anticks has put it, where to draw the line.

Takei's video was a response to a obvious homophobic comment, and his reference to skin collor was an obvious sarcastic comeback (and a sarcastic comeback to a "phobic" will most probably be "phobic" as well). But then again, so where his remarks about his calfs, his baldness and the size of his penis.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
09:26 / 26.02.07
I might be reading too much into these comments Granny, but what makes you think that Black people are so likely to respond to such remarks with violence?

Um, that wasn't what I meant to imply.

I had, however, been at the cooking sherry yesterday, and was possibly a bit over-stimulated as a result.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:36 / 26.02.07
Hm. Well personally, I think if I was overheard referring to someobody's 'chocolatey' skin at a social occasion, I'd expect to get hit fairly hard as a result.

I'd still feel a bit uncomfortable about sailing up to Dr Dre or Ice Cube over drinks and snacks with the salutation 'Yo, my n*****! Blood!' Although not as uncomfortable as I imagine I'd feel shortly afterwards.


To be charitable, the first comment doesn't imply that a black person would be doing the hitting (just that someone overhearing, who found the comment racist, might hit AG), whereas the second discusses two artists associated with gangsta rap, whose star personae, as far as I know, suggest that they have some history of violence and/or give the idea that they are likely to respond with violence when disrespected.
 
 
jentacular dreams
09:45 / 26.02.07
Not exotic (barring specific social circumstances) yes, but some people are only attracted to members of the same ethnic subgroups, which I think can be compared to fetishism of their physical traits (or in some cases possibly their culture - not sure if this is part of the same debate or not?).

So is exoticism/fetishism of physical traits(/ethnic culture) always unacceptable? How does this compare with people favouring certain accents over others. Or other non (or weakly correlated) race-specific physical traits such as height or build?

With regard to Takei's comment, I can see the issue and am not sure that anyone else can say for sure in what way he meant it. Perhaps it was intended as a satirical comparison, or maybe it was totally innocent (in unfortunately phrased) and other individuals, more sensitive to this issue are retrofitting the racial aspects onto it* (in which case I suspect he may be regretting it now). Maybe Takei has a lot of unexamined issues, maybe he's a raging bigot. I don't know (as I suspect neither do most others), and because of this I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

* not intended to offend anyone, just a possible option
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:46 / 26.02.07
they are likely to respond with violence when disrespected.

In the hood.

Before we go any further, could everyone quickly bone up on uses and abuses of the term "PC"? Crash course here. This also, incidentally, pretty comprehensively answers the question of where one draws the line - basically, about an inch over from things you want to be able to do.
 
 
jentacular dreams
09:47 / 26.02.07
Not to self - I feel that faster posting is the way forward.
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
12:26 / 26.02.07
Just a thought, stemming from


I'd still feel a bit uncomfortable about sailing up to Dr Dre or Ice Cube over drinks and snacks with the salutation 'Yo, my n*****! Blood!' Although not as uncomfortable as I imagine I'd feel shortly afterwards.


It looks like what Takei's going for here is an extremely (for Hardaway) uncomfortable overfamiliarity -it is, to state the fucking obvious a very personal message of erotic physical desire, couched in terms and a tone that would not be out of place in a private conversation between lovers (for example). That is to say, without attempting to speak for Hardaway too much, one can imagine a situation where a hypothetical black female lover lauds his various physical attributes using the same words as Takei (including, let's say, the controversial adjective), and this is not problematic. In much the same way as Dr Dre might be somewhat affronted by a septugenarian white Englishwoman addressing him as 'my n*****! Blood', but the problem would probably not arise if the same term of address were used by a gentleman of his long acquaintance. In a similar way (although not the same way, because racism/=homophobia &c) that I don't see a problem in finding my female partner's attraction to other women appealing, because I am also In The Queers, wheras for the straight man on the Clapham Omnibus, a similar appreciation might be a little...queasy. Which is pretty close to how Takei is trying to make Hardaway feel, I'd imagine - by using intimate speech-patterns towards someone who will find this mode of address extremely offensive and alarming. However, the difficulty is that physicalised erotic address towards someone in public, of a different race to yourself, with whom you are not intimate is very likely to cross over into exotic fetishisation of Other traits if you're not very careful. Which I don't think Takei necessarily was. Then again, the problem is that it's not at all clear at what point a genuine appreciation for someone's (say) skin, crosses over into exoticisation. That is to say, I'm pretty sure Takei isn't intending to be racist, but may well have crossed over, via attempting uncomfortably intimate speech patterns, into saying racist things.

(After all that incoherency, a brief question: is exoticisation of others racial characteristics always tied by necessity into colonial oppression sort of thing? I can't help thinking of lad's-mag treatment of Swedish women, for example)
 
 
Ex
12:37 / 26.02.07
(Interesting question - I'd say that the fetishisation of Swedes in the UK is tied into colonialism in the other direction, as it were - they're seen as blue-eyed uber-blondes, epitomising a certain model of woman-ness. Not implying at all that readers of lad's mags are all racist eugenicists.
So in that case it's not that there is a clear power difference between UK readers and Swedes being eroticised, but that a particular kind of whiteness is being presented, which may suggest weird relationships going on elsewhere in the culture.
I'm reminded of the tradition of English love poetry that started to get very keen on blonde ladies at the same time as Europe was defining itself in terms of opposition to the Moors - but only 'reminded' in the sense of 'heard about that a while ago and never chased it up'.)
 
 
Spaniel
12:43 / 26.02.07
Withiel, that wasn't at all incoherent. It was pretty great.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:19 / 26.02.07
. In much the same way as Dr Dre might be somewhat affronted by a septugenarian white Englishwoman addressing him as 'my n*****! Blood', but the problem would probably not arise if the same term of address were used by a gentleman of his long acquaintance.

This might not be a safe assumption, though, if the person in question were not Dr. Dre, or indeed if the gentleman of his long acquaintance did not have that sort of friendship with him. From elsewhere:

Let's take the ever-popular N-word, used formerly as a colloquial and now as a derogatory term for what in the UK we tend to call black people. A hypothetical Michael Scott might feel oppressed by PC and unable to use it in his office environment, but he is still clearly at liberty to use it in the privacy of his own head, and for that matter to watch a chris Rock HBO special and find it highly amusing.

In other situations, people might feel able to use the term as an endearment between friends, safe in the knowledge that they will not hurt or offend the person they are addressing. On the other hand, the same person might well not get the same feeling of comradeship if somebody they had never met before, and/or someone who would have no experience of the term used in a derogatory fashion against them, called them the same thing.

Now, this is by no means a hard and fast rule. There's an argument that in a public place you have no means of knowing who is caught in the radius of your exchange with your friend – so, the 70-year old African-American whose parents were brutalised by people shouting that very word might not be happy to hear it in the sanctuary of the diner he has attended for lunch every day for a decade. The British playwright and actor Kwame Kwei-Ama has expressed the opinion that the term can never be reclaimed, and that those who use are ultimately reinforcing their own victimisation and legitimising its wider use. Nonetheless, used it is.


Dr. Dre certainly at one point did not mind calling himself and his two chums such, but whether he minds being so called by acquaintances these days I know not.
 
  

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