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George "Sulu" Takei responds to Tim Hardaway's homophobic remarks

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21:00 / 23.02.07

Ok, so there used to be this NBA player, who had a pretty good crossover dribble, made some all star teams, and he was asked about a former NBA player who recently came out. Hardaway went insane and said "Well, you know, I hate gay people. I let it be known I don’t like gay people. I don’t like to be around gay people. I’m homophobic. It shouldn’t be in the world, in the United States, I don’t like it."

Well George Takei takes Hardaway to task for this. And then probably makes him very uncomfortable. Very funny clip.
Takei responds

Leigh Monster loses its cool

22:00 / 23.02.07

hehehehehe. Mr. Sulu rocks many socks.

the user comments afterward are making me realize how completely ignorant I am about the bible. Is there anywhere in the New Testament where homosexuality is mentioned, positively, negatively or otherwise?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

06:14 / 24.02.07

Tim Hardaway makes homophobia look bad.

07:41 / 24.02.07

That's really cool Jack.

10:58 / 24.02.07

"Your smooth, chocolate-y head", though?

I don't suppose Takei would relish being compared to a packet of burned-out oven chips, or related - really, in what sense is the colour of Hardaway's skin relevant here?

11:15 / 24.02.07

Well AG, I suppose you'd have to decide whether Takei was making a negative, derogatory comment about the Hardaway’s race, or making a positive aesthetic judgement that referenced the indisputable facts regarding the colour of his skin (I’m assuming “chocolate-y” in this context is relevant in alluding to it being dark, smooth, luscious, delectable, nibblesome… and so forth).

I thought it was hilarious myself.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:49 / 24.02.07

I did kind of pull up short at that comment (although I didn't actually manage to stop laughing at any point during the video). Comparing bits of people to foodstuffs in a positive way is pretty universal eg. "creamy skin" "strawberry lips" etc on Anglos, but it did feel like the lovely George had dropped a bit of a clanger there.

11:58 / 24.02.07

Either way though, it does seem a bit problematic.

Takei seemed to be referencing what he perceived to be Hardaway's 'weakness', ie the colour of his skin; again, I just don't see the point of mentioning it, really. He could have said everything he wanted to say without bringing Hardaway's racial identity into it, surely?

To be fair though, I did find Takei's comments a bit witless; 'teh gays want to make love to teh homophobes' and so on. I don't know if it's true, and it has been said before.

13:27 / 24.02.07

laoi, there is a bit in Paul where he starts listnig all the people who won't get into heaven. The word "homosexual" is never used (it being alien to the culture) but there are some greek words that mean, roughly, "soft effeminate lady boys". Which is usually translated either as "homosexuals", "male prositutes" or the classic "perverts".
I'm being told by my shoulder monkey that there is another NT bit, but neither of us can remember where.

13:38 / 24.02.07

Either way though, it does seem a bit problematic.

I’m not sure that’s as taken as given as you suggest. Ruling out any discursive reference to skin colour as problematic seems a bit off-target to me. I’d say that anyone using colour in this way with regards to “non-Anglos” should perhaps expect more scrutiny and would need to pay additional attention to the historical construction of racial metaphors, but that doesn’t on its own seem a sufficient reason to rule out or disfavour one stripe of description that deals with chocolate-y-ness and accept another that deals with cream-y-ness.

In some ways I think you’re right about Takei making quite an obvious and perhaps largely unfounded point, but his laughter at the end suggested (to me at least) that he certainly wasn’t being serious, that he personally wasn’t being sincere, and that at least one of his points was to mock anyone (like Hardaway) that would find his comments either credible or frightening. If there’s any weakness being referenced it’s located in the brain-pan of those who find the idea of men writhing together, possibly in locker rooms, soaked in their own man-sweat fearful; I don’t see any justification for ascribing to Takei’s comments an intention to characterise skin colour as being related to that or being a site of weakness itself, perhaps you could explain why you do?

Though mainly I don’t understand (perhaps naively) the fuss about what I perceived as an innocuous comment when there’s really very little other information to go on.

I now want “lovely George” to decloak and set the matter straight. So to speak.

13:44 / 24.02.07

How interesting that people are taking exception to the "chocolatey head" remark, which is pretty innocent, but are okay with the rape humor.

13:50 / 24.02.07

Interesting -- I didn't take Takei's comment as referring to race, but rather to actual skin color, in an attempt to sound both ridiculous and lascivious. I also read the bit about having sex with Hardaway as a criticism of stereotypes -- the idea of Takei, who must weigh 90 pounds, having sex with Hardaway when he least expects it through some kind of supernatural power of gayness is so ludicrous that I think it highlights how nonsensical the standard homophobe's notion that he is a target of gay desire (just by existing) really is.

14:09 / 24.02.07

I didn't have an issue with chocolate-y. I thought it was just a description of the actual colour rather than any kind of veiled insult.

The whole thing is pretty sweet. I don't care if it perpetuates the whole "gay men are rapists" thing. I just hope that the other guy is very very uncomfortable.

miss wonderstarr

14:32 / 24.02.07

his laughter at the end suggested (to me at least) that he certainly wasn’t being serious, that he personally wasn’t being sincere, and that at least one of his points was to mock anyone (like Hardaway) that would find his comments either credible or frightening.

I thought that was "mad mastermind" laughter and part of the "when you least expect it" sinister strategising.

14:36 / 24.02.07

The actual context, though. As far as I know, Hardaway didn't say anything about any fear of homosexual rape--that was LeBron James. Hardaway says something about the presense of gay men in a locker room being too much of a distraction, but he doesn't say why he hates gay people. The Takei clip edits his remarks to make him look more absurd*.

This article was the first I saw of this story. I was a little puzzled by the journalist's suggestion that Hardaway must be a closet case. Is there really a causal link between virulent homophobia and suppressed homosexual urges? Surely there are some known cases of it, are they statistically significant, or is their importance amplified by the dramatic sense of nemesis? Has anyone done a study? You wouldn't say that a racist lives in fear of his suppressed blackness.

*Takei quotes him as saying "I hate gay people. Let it be known. I am homophobic." When he actually said, "I hate gay people. I let it be known I don’t like gay people. I don’t like to be around gay people. I’m homophobic."

15:04 / 24.02.07

mw: you know you've been reading superhero comics for too long when alliteration comes so easily and so elegantly to hand. I'm sure you're right that it's meant to sound like mad mastermind laughter, but I think gourami's put it better than I did originally in that it's also at least partially intentionally ridiculous. I think that leads in to the idea of Takei threatening to rape him: which to me is so obviously unlikely I'm not surprised it didn't initially occur to me. I think it's got far more to do with the idea of Takei threatening to somehow convince Hardaway to have sex with him and along the way emasculate him, which I think Hardaway definitely did sound edgy about in terms of not wanting to be contaminated by having "the gays" in the same changing room. Silly boy.

I will say I think generally speaking this thread has not nearly enough slashy Commander Sulu / Security Officer Hardaway scenes though.

15:06 / 24.02.07

I don’t see any justification for ascribing to Takei’s comments an intention to characterise skin colour as being related to that or being a site of weakness itself, perhaps you could explain why you do?

Well, had the situation been reversed, ie, had a gay celebrity made needlessly offensive, and basically stupid, remarks about the African American community along the lines in question, would it have been all right for whoever it was that was replying on behalf of same to hint at campness, swishiness, so nothing that heavy in terms of abuse, while nevertheless still mentioning it in the background, by way of a response?

I'm not sure if it would.

I'll admit to being somewhat out to get Takei, to the extent that I can, so not much really, on account of his career aboard the Starship Enterprise, but there was still something uncomfortably glib about his behaviour in the video.

He seemed to be very much playing to a crowd that's happy enough to 'other' African Americans.

miss wonderstarr

15:13 / 24.02.07

I think describing a black person in terms of "chocolate" (from a position outside black identity) does have different connotations from describing a white person as "creamy". Perhaps this is just because of my own experience, but I've certainly heard racist jokes and remarks in the UK ~ not recently, I admit ~ about "chocolate drops" and suchlike.

Describing Takei as having skin like burnt oven chips (?? wouldn't that be brown or black?) would seem offensive, but it wouldn't seem to be tapping into any established stream of racist terminology ~ whereas "chocolate", to me at least, does seem to.

15:34 / 24.02.07

would it have been all right for whoever it was that was replying on behalf of same to hint at campness, swishiness, so nothing that heavy in terms of abuse, while nevertheless still mentioning it in the background, by way of a response?

Can you give an example of a hypothetical response to racist remarks made by a gay celebrity? I don't really understand the comparison you're making.

Leigh Monster loses its cool

15:42 / 24.02.07

I'm also having trouble imagining that situation, or at least imagining it being carried off with the same levity. Takei's joke is operating on the assumption that Hardaways homophobia is based on fear of "contamination," and the skit is highlighting how ludicrous that fear is. I suppose if a gay public figure had made a comment about hating and/or fearing blacks, a comparable response might be Steve Erkel
saying "I love your lacy clothes fancy car. and someday when you least expect it I will cut you, steal your wallet and sleep with your boyfriend. HAHAHAHAHAHA"

hrm.

burned oven chips isn't really comparable because burned oven chips don't have erotic context. chocolate does. I think the choice of word may have been unfortunate rather than racist. I would think that Takei, having spent some time in Japanese detention camps, would be wary of making race-based judgements about anyone.

15:51 / 24.02.07

In defense of the chocolate remark, I think it was mostly so he could set up the use of the phrase "glazed in man-sweat" which is a noble goal, in my mind.

Do you think this will go on the Captain's log?

15:51 / 24.02.07

I was going to make that observation about Takei as well, but that can be a little more complicated given that in the US, some Asian groups have a sort of 'honorary white' or 'model minority' status, so it gets a little tricky there. Takei is himself as an individual, but also has to be considered as part of a group that has experienced tensions with the black community in past.

There is also the context of the Jimmy Kimmel show to consider -- my understanding of that is mercifully limited, but perhaps somebody more familiar with the program can explain how this bit with Takei might be affected by that context.

miss wonderstarr

16:02 / 24.02.07

I keep having second and third thoughts about this clip. First time round, I found it a very funny performance, in terms of Takei's quite gorgeous actorly voice and his stagey relish.

Of course, its intention is to mock the homophobic idea that all gay men want to jump the bones of all straight men. But couldn't a homophobic viewer of that clip view it as plain confirmation of what he believed ~ "how can anyone deny gays are swishy predators, look at that fruit Takei"? It only really works as a criticism of homophobia if you take it as a parody on the stereotype of gay men as constantly horny for all other guys.

Leigh Monster loses its cool

16:06 / 24.02.07

Ah. I hadn't thought of that. Even more unfortunate word choice, then.

[ps thanks princess. I read all of the comments on the page yesterday, and the homophobic ones were mostly trollish and stupid and awful like you'd expect. But there was one user who was very articulate, stated that he put the old testament in context with the time it was written, had gone through a public education system that taught evolution...but still thought that evolution was crap and that homosexuality was unnatural and a sin. It startled me because, you know, I always assume people who believe those things are just undereducated and underexposed fanatics who refuse to confront facts and context. Prejudiced of me.

But yeah that's why I was asking--I was wondering where he got that from if he was throwing out Leviticus.]

Leigh Monster loses its cool

16:08 / 24.02.07

But couldn't a homophobic viewer of that clip view it as plain confirmation of what he believed ~ "how can anyone deny gays are swishy predators, look at that fruit Takei"?

if you look at it that way, about half of parody humor is dead, because someone can always take seriously what someone else thinks is obviously a joke.

miss wonderstarr

16:17 / 24.02.07

But if the joke is that Takei is trying to make Hardaway feel uncomfortable as an object of Takei's sexual desire, that aim is contradictory with an intention to make it seem ridiculous that Hardaway could be the object of Takei's desire.

Different posts on this thread seem to assume different interpretations. If it's a parody of the idea that a gay man like Takei would want to jump Hardaway, that's different from the idea that Takei is trying to make Hardaway squirm at being the subject of gay longing.

16:23 / 24.02.07

I don't see why it's contradictory -- Takei can relish Hardaway's discomfort without, himself, experiencing genuine desire.

16:36 / 24.02.07

mw: with regards to your last I'd come back again to the laughter being double-edged, it can be read as an authentic if intentionally reductive component of homosexual desire that Takei is challenging Hardaway with, it can also be read as mocking a certain parody of gay men that people like Hardaway who profess to resist contact with homosexuals that they are aware of would be likely to believe in because they have so little exeprience of that world. I don’t think it is ridiculous that Hardaway could be an object of his desire (apart from, and I assumed this was part of the joke, that Takei had better taste than to fancy a raving homophobe) so much as ridiculous that Takei could directly or indirectly influence Hardaway to return that desire.

AG: I don't understand you're analogy terribly well either, possibly because I'm not reading chocolate as minimally offensive, as you seem to be, but as not offensive at all in this context. Its use in other contexts bears thinking about, but I still don't see how it could be more than at worst the use of a word with unfortunate connotations that don't really apply in this case (and I think it's suggestive properties re: "glazed with man-sweat" are fairly irresistable). Would we be having this contention if we substituted coffee-like for chocolate-y? I'm curious now becuase this way of thinking seems to reflect an unwillingness to consider the physical reality of skin colour and the likelihood that we, as human beings and possibly as gay men as well, will want to comment favourably on the skin tone of other human beings / basketball players that we find attractive, possibly using appropriate metaphors. And that just seems very natural to me as a thing that we might want to do, so while it's not strictly necessary I didn’t see it as out of place within the context of Takei finding ways to insincerely or otherwise describe Hardaway as attractive. It doesn’t seem controversial to me that skin tone might form part of our aesthetic reaction to other people, and we haven’t been presented with any additional information that this was anything more than that, and as it’s clearly a joke it’s unlikely we will receive any further information on what informed Takei’s particular comment.

17:01 / 24.02.07

Would we be having this contention if we substituted coffee-like for chocolate-y?

I think so, yeah. It would have been just as beside the point, the point, I suppose, being that Hardaway's comments were potentially upsetting to any number of people who've done nothing whatsoever to him personally. And that he should watch what he says, really.

There are any number of ways Takei could have made Hardaway look very silly without bringing race into it, or playing up to the stereotypical image of the gay male gaze that Hardaway presumably had in mind when he made those remarks in the first place.

As it is though, I imagine Hardaway, if he's seen this at all, will have just laughed angrily, all his prejudices having been confirmed.

17:17 / 24.02.07

But with the intention clearly having been to ridicule the man and his comments - which is why it *isn't* a 'rape joke' - it'll have succeeded even in that circumstance.

17:38 / 24.02.07

I suppose if we're talking about the intention of the vid clip, then it's to get Takei taken more seriously, from an employment point of view, surely?

He does look terribly in need of attention, and not all of it medical, either.

19:45 / 24.02.07

I guess what made the clip really funny is that me and my nerd friends love Takei because he's always kinda serious and charming, and that speaking voice is just so good. And usually when we'd hear him being interviewed it would be about stuff like asian american rights, and his history in the internment camps (or how mad he was at Shatner for cutting his promotion scene out of a Star Trek movie). Even when he'd do Howard Stern shows, he'd try to be serious. And then when he came out recently he started talking about gay rights in America. All of that, plus the fact I didn't know where that clip was from, made it even funnier, because the first half of the clip was pure Takei, and I was nodding "right on, right on" and then he breaks into the "teh gays are gonna get ya Tim!" and the evil supervillian laugh and I just lost it.

The chocolate thing. Just a setup on how he was gonna eat Tim all up I think.

20:03 / 24.02.07

Chocolate can be white. No matter what the colour, it is always considered delicious. Probably it would be more offensive if Takei mentioned something about nuts.

20:05 / 24.02.07

Fair enough.

I suppose from one point of view Takei's a good guy who's genuinely interested in standing up for what's right and true, and from another, he's a deeply cynical, racist, publicity-starved grotesque.

The truth, I suspect, lies somewhere between the two. But isn't that always the way?

21:22 / 24.02.07

The problem with that being that your phrasing makes it seem as though both views are equally plausible and supported by the material in question, when actually they're not.

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