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God Is Imaginary

 
  

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sn00p
19:16 / 22.08.06
" Although I should add that "That is nonsense", whether 'true' or not, is not the best way to phrase your objections in my humble opinion - would you mind expounding? "

I do apologise, i'm a tottal prick when it comes to religion. It makes me feel physicaly sick. ( and I bet in a 100 years everyone is going to look back on religion, as we look back on racism and they'll probably feel as i sick as i do, but i'm getting off topic... )

In the post it's implied that all facts are based on some form of faith. It's not faith, it's that basic critical thinking that makes us different from jellyfish and cows, that makes us think "Oh yeah, that fits there".
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
19:18 / 22.08.06
Somehow I suspect the etymology of the word God has nothing to do with the subject

Well, what is the subject?

As you have pointed out, 'God' is just a word. But how you understand that word will have massive ramifications on your relationship to the connections and connotations your understanding represents, no? Like, whether you think it's a load of silly childish cobblers or the most important relationship in your life, or anything in between.

If Khorosho's point is 'I don't believe in a Giant Man with a Big Beard in a Sumptuous Palace on a Cloud somewhere in an Alternative Dimension where Everyone is Happy and Dead People Who have Been Good Go And Who Listens Closely to Wishes and Makes Them Come True If the Wisher Is Saintly Enough, and Furthermmore, everyone who does Believe this is the Cause of all the Worlds Problems' then he's drifted pretty far from any concept of God which is actually claimed by the Great Sages who have written the Great Texts. He is arguing a Straw Man, based on a load of childish cultural baggage.

So in a way, it may be the crux of the problem.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
19:26 / 22.08.06
Here's where Crowley said "We place no reliance/On Virgin or pigeon/Our method is science/Our aim is religion."

So what? Can you explain what this means, please? Especially "Our method is science, our aim is religion"? And who is this 'we' he is referring to?

btw, OT, I don't think asking you to clarify your point is arrogant, but if you felt affronted I apologise. I think it's the nature of the medium by which we are communicating, I meant no offence at all.
 
 
EvskiG
19:46 / 22.08.06
What did Crowley mean? Pretty simple, I think.

I believe he was stating that inquiry into magic, mysticism, and the nature of the divine (the aim of religion) shouldn't be guided by naive faith in dogma (reliance on Virgin or pigeon) -- rather, it should be guided by practical experimentation and experience (the method of science).

Hence my earlier post: while it isn't possible to use the method of science (experimentation and experience) to determine such questions as the divinity of Jesus or whether Mohammed is god's only prophet, it may be possible use the method of science to determine, for example, the effects of meditation, or whether divination works.

You appear to believe that it's possible to acquire some sort of evidence of the existence of the divine (however you label it) through this sort of method. I'm somewhat more skeptical -- that is, unless you conceive of God in a more-or-less Spinozistic sense, which may be the case.
 
 
Char Aina
20:16 / 22.08.06
( and I bet in a 100 years everyone is going to look back on religion, as we look back on racism and they'll probably feel as i sick as i do, but i'm getting off topic... )

off topic and off the planet, mate.
religion is like racism?
there are several positive aspects to the nebulous world of belief you so sweepingly condemn to your own particular utopian dustbin, and none that i can think of to racism.

care to expand on your point, perhaps in a way that begins "sorry i was so silly..."?
feel free to tell us all the wonderful things that have come of racism instead, if you like.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:08 / 22.08.06
Is it possible to experience doubtful faith or faithful doubt? I think so. what about rational faith or faithful rationalism? Or Scientific religion or religous science?

Is it posssible that two propositions that appear to be opposites can be synthesized into a whole? isnt this proposition the basis of alchemy which is a strong influencing factor on both science and hermeticism, taoism, tantra, kabbalah,etc the combining of opposites to create union.

Isnt it the division that we see in knowledge and philosophical positions that creates the conflict, the cauldron to boil so to speak, so we apply the friction to the situation, so the two forces charged with difference come together to create a third and so on and so forth. of course you can keep boiling until the waters all gone the fires gone out and the cauldron is cracked, and then repeat the whole thing again with another cauldron, without ever seeing the steam at all, or realising that your creating it through the act of friction.

So what is it that concieves of god, imagination and science, can you measure the effect of a conception on your own consciousness and how do you qualify that measurement? What is the process of consciousness concieving itself to be able to formulate what appear to be concepts to the mind?

I think crowley is driving at the ideas of alchemy with that statement, not that science is to be held the tool above religion or that religion the tool beyond science. But that both combined create the kind of framework that crowley intended for thelema to represent.
 
 
sn00p
21:10 / 22.08.06
Feel free to tell my all the wonderful things which have came from religon.
 
 
Ticker
21:12 / 22.08.06
How many people here have checked via lab time that water is indeed H2O?

How many of us can accurately describe the mechanical process of how a cellphone works?


Both of these things can be checked by anyone genuinely willing to learn the theory and put in the practical work.


I agree with you however I'm asking how many people have bothered to do so and how many simply accept it on faith. Big chunks of science are taken on faith is the point I'm after.

From my POV many things currently in the religion un-provable box are just waiting for the invention of new scientific tools to make them 'provable'. Knowing the mechanics of how trees grow does not make them less worthy of devotion and worship for me, rather it increases my awe.

In the post it's implied that all facts are based on some form of faith. It's not faith, it's that basic critical thinking that makes us different from jellyfish and cows, that makes us think "Oh yeah, that fits there".

If you could put the 'tude down for a minute we can have a thoughtful exchange around this.

Many philosophical and religious schools have rigorous critical analysis as part of their structure.

To claim religion is not capable of critical thought overlooks those inventors and scientists who discovered great wonders while working in a religious cosmology. Ethics and moral questions have been examined and taken apart by highly trained religious scholars.

Intolerance for other people's religion and belief structure is oppressive and hateful.
 
 
Char Aina
21:21 / 22.08.06
sure, sn00p.
you dont fancy going first?
i did ask you first, after all.

oh wait, do you have anyone on ignore?
i ask, because i wonder if there is any point linking to earlier posts in this thread.
i'm thinking of the earlier posts that mentioned some people who took a positive message form their religion.

did you read those before?
can you see them now?
if so, do you have a similar list of people who drew positive inspiration from racism and made the world a better place?
 
 
sn00p
21:36 / 22.08.06
Yknow what, this thread seem's to offer a double standard on 'tude, and who has to prove what, and who can insult who.

I'm sorry but i don't get it. Their actions aren't religious. They're just religious people doing good things. Would they not do it if they didn't think there was a reward waiting for them in heaven? Is that just not good things for bad reasons or good things for good reasons which are not based in the idea of God?

I can't bring up a list of racists who did good deads because i doubt there is one, but i don't see why a memember of the Klu Klux clan couldn't campaign against nuclear weapons.

"Intolerance for other people's religion and belief structure is oppressive and hateful."

No i think it's other way around. I think it's unreasonable to expect other people to tolerate unreasonable beliefs.
 
 
Seth
21:47 / 22.08.06
I'm sorry but i don't get it. Their actions aren't religious. They're just religious people doing good things. Would they not do it if they didn't think there was a reward waiting for them in heaven? Is that just not good things for bad reasons or good things for good reasons which are not based in the idea of God?

I can't bring up a list of racists who did good deads because i doubt there is one, but i don't see why a memember of the Klu Klux clan couldn't campaign against nuclear weapons.


Is this not also true of religious people doing bad things? As in people who happen to be religious doing things that I find slide somewhere on the dubious to despicable axis.

Even when I was a much more conventionally devout Christian I didn't believe in Heaven as an ultimate place of reward that you go to after you die. I just used my own moral compass in my decisions. In my experience Christians very rarely use Heaven as a behavioural guideline. So rarely to the point at which I can't think of a single instance.

Some Christians are for birth control, some against. Some are pro recent wars around the world, some anti. Some are dedicated to a woman's right to choose what happens to her body, some are pro-life. There must be more factors involved than just the religion.
 
 
ghadis
21:50 / 22.08.06
This thread is making me dizzy. Its like a merry-go-round or something.

I'm sorry but i don't get it. Their actions aren't religious. They're just religious people doing good things.

So what you're saying is that when religious people do good things it has nothing to do with their religion but when religious people do bad things it is because religion made them do it.

No i think it's other way around. I think it's unreasonable to expect other people to tolerate unreasonable beliefs.

So who gets to decide what an unreasonable belief is?
 
 
ghadis
21:52 / 22.08.06
x-posted with Seth
 
 
sn00p
22:06 / 22.08.06
No i'm saying everybody does good and bad things, but the fundamental logical flaw at the heart of religon can make you do alot of bad.

An unreasonable bleief is... i don't care anymore. I've lost the will to campaign for human rights. You win, i fold. God is real. I'm gonna drop out of medical school and heal with prayers instead. Good game everybody.
 
 
Char Aina
22:07 / 22.08.06
Yknow what, this thread seem's to offer a double standard on 'tude, and who has to prove what, and who can insult who.

have i insulted you, dude?
i did say you were going off planet in your post, but i meant to alert you to your unreaonable beliefs regarding religion, not insult you.
have i shown you attitude?
have i not given you the information you asked for, information regarding positivity inspired by religion?

i think you will need to do some linking and explaining to convince me of the veracity of the above quote.

i remain willing to be convinced, if you feel so inclined.





(
i wonder... when you say 'seems', are you intending to highlight that while it appears that way to you, you suspect it may not be the reality?
that it seems that way, but that you are aware that this perception is borne of your own unreasonable beliefs about religion?
)
 
 
Seth
22:08 / 22.08.06
You win, i fold. God is real. I'm gonna drop out of medical school and heal with prayers instead.

I haven't read anyone here arguing that.
 
 
Seth
22:11 / 22.08.06
No i'm saying everybody does good and bad things, but the fundamental logical flaw at the heart of religon can make you do alot of bad.

And by your own argument then that same logical flaw must be able to make you do a lot of good, because good done in the hope of Heaven is still good, right?

Although I'm not comfortable with notions of good vs bad, which I don't think are universals anyway. That would be what some Christians think though.
 
 
Char Aina
22:23 / 22.08.06
An unreasonable bleief is...
never having to say you're sorry?
perhaps for likening religious people with racists?

i believe it is reasonable to expect you to clarify, defend or retract your unreasonable comments about religion.


the fundamental logical flaw at the heart of religon can make you do alot of bad.

i think some people might tell you that it is not sound logic that leads them to altruism, compassion or love either.

it seems you have decided that this conversation is over for you, so i will understand if you decide to ignore this last point of mine and only deal with the issue of having called all followers of religion the same as racists.
that i feel you really do have to say something more about.
 
 
LykeX
22:29 / 22.08.06
Some thoughts on this:

I don't think there's anything wrong with faith or beliefs as such. As has been mentioned, many of our opinions and ideas are, in fact, based on a sort of faith and that's not a problem unless we cling to them in an irrational manner.
The problem is dogmatic beliefs, that a person clings to even when presented with evidence to the contrary. Beliefs so firm that they are unwilling to question them at all in any way. This occurs in many ways; religion, science, politics and so on.

The problem with religions is, I think, that it is an inherently static structure. There are, of course, individual exceptions, but I think it's fair to say that a religious organization, deriving it's authority from the Word of God *, will be very reluctant to accept changes to the core beliefs of the religion.
Since the will always be change, religion tends to lag behind the development of the society around it, encouraging an oppositional relationship to progress. Any change, scientific, political or whatever, is seen as a threat to the religion which must be fought to prevent the "moral degeneration" of society.
This will tend to entrench the oppositional forces, to the point where the religion can only be updated through a major upheaval, probably involving a fair share of violence.

Science, on the other hand, has built into it's core the idea of a progression of knowledge and so is more adaptable. Even if some individual scientist are closed-minded, since the teachings of science is not considered sacred, it only takes a generation before old ideas can be revisited.

* This is probably most true of the Abrahamic book-religions. I'm not sure how well it suits other faiths.
 
 
sn00p
22:30 / 22.08.06
For 'gods' sake....

Did i say religions people and racists where the same? No.

Did i say in a hundred years it would be viewed in the same light? Yes, yes i did.

Why? Same irationality which seems obsurd with hindisght, but at the time it was a common held belief that was socialy acceptable.

Same way we look back on sexism, and hopefuly nationalism.
 
 
Char Aina
22:37 / 22.08.06
i hate to be a pedant, dude, but you actually said everyone is going to look back on religion, as we look back on racism and they'll probably feel as i sick as i do, the piece of which i think is relevant is as.
there was no mention of lights.
you do say we will look at religion as we do racism.


do you believe i am at fault for not having read the extra words you neglected to put in that alter the meaning of your post?
i think that would be unreasonable of you.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
22:44 / 22.08.06
He did say that the aim was religion, though. Not divination, not meditation. Religion - God, or Gods. Or both. And I don't think he meant it in the Spinozistic (Spinoztic?) sense, if by that you mean a God who is "the natural world and has no personality" (wikipedia). Most of the Crowley's works that I've read contain many useful techniques for attending more and more to the world. He also talks about how to chat up those big scary fucking deities that people have in mythology and religion. The two things tend to go hand in hand, I find.

But 'evidence of the divine?' No one is talking about evidence. Science is very clear on anecdotes and personal experience - they don't count. Not evidence, but gnosis. Contact. Conversation. We're not interested in proving this to the world and hawking God on a streetcorner like a tourist trinket.

"Mom, I got a model of Big Ben, and Jehovah!"

"That's nice, dear. Let's go."

No, it's more of a 'Bringing the Divine Fire to the Earth one torch at a time' deal.

What's funny to me about the advice given to disprove the existence of Jesus is that prayer, oh so carefully worded. I mean, what, "I said a prayer for a few minutes in the spirit of proving that this guy doesn't REALLY exist, and he obliged me! He must be imaginary." Wow, you put in a minute of half-baked, I-want-this-to-fail effort, and nothing happened. Let's go disprove exercise next, eh? I'll do five pushups and then complain that I can't lift a car.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
22:51 / 22.08.06
Wow, my whole post was directed as EvkG's last one - must've forgotten to reload the page since I last looked at it. I liked the 'methods of Science, aim of Religion' theme.
 
 
Seth
22:53 / 22.08.06
Did i say in a hundred years it would be viewed in the same light? Yes, yes i did.

You seem to be using the hope of a future that hasn't happened yet - and may never happen - as a means of justifying yourself. That seems rather similar to your arguments about Christians justifying themselves via the hope of their conceptions of Heaven. I think it's a weak argument in both cases.
 
 
Ticker
23:24 / 22.08.06
"Intolerance for other people's religion and belief structure is oppressive and hateful."

No i think it's other way around. I think it's unreasonable to expect other people to tolerate unreasonable beliefs.


Shall we dance with this for a moment?

Tolerance is not acceptance. One tolerates things one doesn't like but that are not in and of themselves offensive/harmful.

Why should you not tolerate my belief in polytheism?
How does this personal belief I hold impact your life or anyone else's?

I tolerate atheism & monotheism when expressed as a personal truth for an indvidual. I extend them the courtesy of respect that for their OS they do not believe in the existence of multiple Deities. In fact I'm willing to believe that in their reality there is only one God or no God.
 
 
+am
23:30 / 22.08.06
Great art, thought, literature, and altruism have come from and continue to come from the colossal amount of people who act in response to their religion.

What do you get from racism? I don't think the effects of the two on the physical and mental world are comparable, and thus the two would not be viewed by "everyone" in the same light in a hundred years time. This is even if a scientist somehow managed to prove beyond doubt that there is no intelligence of any kind in the universe other than in the physical organisms that inhabit this planet and furthermore rationalist reductivism was the only way to obtain true reality, and that all other thought systems were bunk.

I don't see anything that racists have created as a direct expression of their racism that has any worth what so ever. However, I find value in much religion has produced.

Racism today is frowned upon in much of society and is ostensibly illegal. If the same were to happen to religious belief I think this would be a fundamental breach of human rights (unlike with racism, natch). Yeah humans can use reason, unlike the animals. But they can also believe in something other than themselves, unlike the animals. And one is "wrong" and the other isn't? How do you know?

It is easy to view the current goings-on in the world and blame religion for it all. Like any easy solution to an incredibly complex problem, i think it is misguided and pervaded by "black or white" thinking. Some religion causes death. Some science causes death ([cough]the atom bomb, genetic warfare [cough]). And of course they both also promote life. To get rid of one because of some its ill effects seems ridiculous, and an inability to see any of its positive effects very blinkered.
 
 
Seth
23:34 / 22.08.06
On Saturday a friend quickly retracted calling me a fence-sitter, in that my conceptions of divinity these days are that there sometimes seem to be phenomena that act like a single monotheistic god and sometimes seem to act like many and varied gods, and that I can conceive of the expression of the many as aspects of the one while at the same time using the word *seem* to take an atheist stance when it suits me. The net result is that I often find myself playing both ends against the middle in debate... well, maybe having enough self-doubt to entertain the notion that I might be playing both ends against the middle. Does anyone think this is a good way of being? I'm interested because I'd really like to know at this point in my life.
 
 
Ganesh
23:44 / 22.08.06
It's always worked for me...
 
 
EvskiG
00:08 / 23.08.06
Wow . . . so many points to discuss.

I think I'll pick this one to start:

Intolerance for other people's religion and belief structure is oppressive and hateful.

I think you might be overgeneralizing here.

Is intolerance for the oppression of women by the religion of your choice (most of them) oppressive and hateful? Is intolerance of a belief structure that incorporates racism, or genocide oppressive and hateful?

Marcuse once wrote an article on "revolutionary tolerance" (I have around here someplace, god knows where). As I remember it, his thesis was that tolerance of ideas and belief structures that tend to promote greater freedom should be distinguished from tolerance of ideas and belief structures that tend to restrict freedom.

Makes sense to me.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
02:08 / 23.08.06
I'd like to interject here, if I may, to clarify something...and, sorry, but it's that stinking entymology again. It might strike some people as splitting hairs, but since language is what we are using to communicate our ideas about relationships and connections, I think it's OK to be a bit particular and specific about these things.

The 'aim' of religion (and its not an 'aim' in any common or useful sense of that word...many, if not most, spiritual practices fairly rapidly initiate the enquiring student into the most difficult of spiritual tasks : acting without expectation of reward. Doing not doing, with no anticipation of result...hence not aim, but 'work'...spiritual work) is not really so abstract as a couple of folks here have suggested...the clue is in the question. So, entymologically, there are a few possibilities in the origin of the word...although different, they all mean, generally, the same thing.

So, it's not 'God or Gods', nor, specifically (though here we get a little bogged down in more definition) is it necessarily 'enquiry into mysticism and the divine', which to me asks more questions than it answers.

Religion, most likely, derives from religare, which means 'To return and bind fast', or 'To rejoin and not again separate' if you like. Funny, 'yoga', also, means 'Union'.

So : Rejoin what? Separate from what? Union with what?

When Mad Al says 'our' methods are science but 'our' aim is religion (and I still want to know who this 'we' is) he is referring to the scientific method as a means of rejoining and binding fast. Mad Al was, if nothing else, a very particular and calculated wordsmith. Much like the literary invention / historical personage of Isho / Yahshua.

How many 'things' are there from which we could possibly be separate? What union? What, as the very famous religious declaration goes, the fuck?

AL, EL, Alaha, Elohim, Allah. That. (Point in front of you. Behind you. Anywhere you please. That.) One.

This is not Spinozistic. It's much older.

You may find the very best that modern science has to offer here is actually in total unequivocal agreement with the authorial committe invention / historical figure called Isho / Yahshua / Ieoseus / Jesus here. And Mohammed. And Lao Tze. And Lieh Tzu. And Chuang Tzu. And the Upanishads. And African tradition. And Hermes Trismegistus, or the committee that invented him as well. And Amazonian shamanism. And..so on.

One. Yeah, just like U2. One. Ness. Oneness. All is One. One is All. Muskerhounds are always ready.

To whomever asked 'what good has ever come from religion', you are asking 'what good has ever come from the knowledge and experience - not intellectual, not mentation, I mean knowledge and experience - that all is One.' That is your question.

Perhaps you could answer that for yourself? Because you are, or seem to be, using the word in a different sense, and so arguing a Straw Man. It obviously thrills you to do so, but it will not achieve a single thing. Your arguments have been raging since the dawn of communication, and have not changed a single thing. In fact, your arguments are what lead to the crucifiction of the literary invention by the authorial committe that conspired to wreak havoc on the World by penning the Gospels.

It's a cliche, but it works and thats why its a cliche : sacred teachings are nothing more than an advertisement for Spiritual Work. It's incredibly difficult. It hurts. It forces confrontation with the most terrifying enemy and subtle liar in the Universe : You. They are, and here's the cliche, a finger pointing at the moon. The idea being you follow the point of the finger, and behold the moon. Not the finger - the Moon.

The problem comes when people start worshipping and arguing about the finger. Instead of bathing in the glory of the vision of the moon, they start grabbing at the finger...does it have a ring on? Are its knuckles large or small? Is it a black finger or a white finger or a yellow finger or a purple finger with six fingers and a pipe? Which way is it pointing? Yadda Yadda FishPaste.

All of this highlights the Spiritual Work : Ego or Soul? How to recognise which is which and which one to trust in which situation. Ego or Soul.
 
 
EvskiG
02:48 / 23.08.06
I'd like to interject here, if I may, to clarify something...and, sorry, but it's that stinking entymology again.

So, entymologically, there are a few possibilities in the origin of the word...although different, they all mean, generally, the same thing.


"Entomology": study of insects.

"Etymology": study of the origins of words.

"Entymology": nothing in particular, as far as I know.

As you said, "since language is what we are using to communicate our ideas about relationships and connections, I think it's OK to be a bit particular and specific about these things."

The "we" Crowley was referring to was, I believe, the A.'.A.'., the magical order he was developing at the time.

As you suggest, I think Crowley saw the "aim of religion" as unity with the divine, knowledge and conversation with one's guardian angel, the medicine of metals and the stone of the wise, etc. etc. Don't know if that requires acting without expectation of reward, although Crowley certainly did advocate working without "lust of result."
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:53 / 23.08.06
My bad. It was 4.00 am, apologies if I confused things.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:07 / 23.08.06
"Entymology": nothing in particular, as far as I know.

Study of Ents?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:34 / 23.08.06
btw, sort of OT, bit also sort of OK, has anybody else been watching 'The Convent' on BBC in the UK?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:28 / 23.08.06
you do say we will look at religion as we do racism.

Actually, he says we will look at religion as he does racism. That is, in a hundred years' time the rest of us will have caught up with his technologically superior view of religion.

Again, it's faith, and it's the use of faith to occupy a position as especially enlightened. Quite a lot like...

Oh, I don't need to say it, do I?
 
  

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