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God Is Imaginary

 
  

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chairmanWOW
09:14 / 18.08.06
Open your eyes and the truth will set you free. Be brave and read through all 50 proofs at www.godisimaginary.com and then tell me that you still believe in some omnipotent 'Angry Father' archetype/Dionysian pastiche.

Also go here for more 'enlightenment':
Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

YouTube Videos:
Proving Jesus Is Imaginary In Less Than 5 Minutes
Proving The Bible Is Repulsive
Proving No One Can Get Into Heaven
Proving That Prayer Is Superstition
Eight Steps You're Supposed To Take To Get To Heaven (But Probably Won't)

P.S The Devil didn't make me do it...I promise. It's just time for civilization to abandon it's "training wheels" like Ra and Zeus and Allah and Jeehaw and whatever else and start thinking with the prodigious brains evolution blessed us with. Just like how people now laugh at how ignorant past civilizations were for sacrificing humans and building temples for their flaboyant gods, future civilizations will have the same chuckle at our expense. Wine into water indeed.

P.S.S. Sorry for acting like one of those religious nutters dealing out pamphlets but we have to curtail the destruction and ignorance caused by religion somehow and this is the only way I know how to do my part.

I'm off.
 
 
illmatic
09:27 / 18.08.06
Be brave and read through all 50 proofs at www.godisimaginary.com

Why would I want to do that? Why should I take a couple of hours to read through something I'm not intererested in? Just dumping a load of text on people here is as rude as a Christian pushing unwanted pamphlets into your hands as you walk down the high street - if you want to actually have a discussion with people about atheism, then you'll have to stick around and contribute and argue your position.
 
 
illmatic
09:34 / 18.08.06
Also, the "training wheels" metaphor is a bit tired, something I've heard numerous times before. As we've had the insights of Darwin for 150 years or so, and the modern world is packed full of proof of the wonders of science, why do people keep clinging to these beliefs? If you could settle these questions in the manner you seem to be proposing ("Read this! DO YOU SEE?") - surely, we'd all be atheists? Why aren't we?
 
 
ghadis
09:42 / 18.08.06
Just like how people now laugh at how ignorant past civilizations were for sacrificing humans and building temples for their flaboyant gods, future civilizations will have the same chuckle at our expense

Are you Booster Gold?
 
 
Rigettle
09:43 / 18.08.06
Depends upon what you mean by God...

Depends what you mean by imaginary...

Though you generally won't find fundies, theistic or atheistic, addressing these questions very deeply. Generally they just assume that their (usually somewhat narrow)definitions are universal.
 
 
thirty/thirty
09:59 / 18.08.06
Giant Haystack, it seems, is one SCURED x-tian. If you're a believer in god read the shit and expose yourself to information...if you ain't then shut your cornhole, the boy's trying to do something good. He's trying to get the info out there for people looking for it. If you're not looking then keep walking.

By the way, Khoro...I found that quite interesting eventhough none of these proofs are news to me.

Go on Giant Haystack, you can have your god plummet Khoro's soul into the Lake of Fire now. Sorry Khoro, you shouldn't anger the all-powerful.
 
 
illmatic
10:04 / 18.08.06
On what basis did you assume I'm a Xtian? What makes you so sure I'm not an atheist myself? Perhaps you could have a go at answering my question - why are more people not atheists, if it is so self-evidently true?

Another question - have either of you guys spent any time reading the forum at all before posting?
 
 
illmatic
10:10 / 18.08.06
Making massive assumptions about people when they don't agree with your beliefs? Deciding that your own beliefs are self-evidently true and the way things are, and that anyone who disagrees is WRONG ... hmmm, there's something familar about this pattern, I wonder where I've seen it before?
 
 
osymandus
10:13 / 18.08.06
Have to agree with GH here. This website is shocking. A logical rationalist response , i think not , maybe the person who wrote it should lok into logical argument 101 .
And please avoid putting their own precudices into assumed perceptions as factual arguments

And I'm a Thelemite btw .
 
 
Seth
10:38 / 18.08.06
Hey there. I'm a Christian.

I'll get around to looking at all those links over the weekend. Looking forward to it.

In the meantime, I'll put together a few words on what's offered by their titles:

Proving Jesus Is Imaginary In Less Than 5 Minutes

Whether Jesus is imaginary or not makes not one bit of difference.

Proving The Bible Is Repulsive

Yeah, it's wicked. Full of sex and violence. Proper story. You know none of it is true, right?

It's a best fit collection of all sorts of different kind of literature put together with some dubious motivations and some flashes of inspiration. Bits of it are more applicable than others. Use what you want and discard the rest, and read all the non-canonical stuff too.

Saying that's it's repulsive seems to give it too much power and disregard the sheer variety that's in there.

Proving No One Can Get Into Heaven

I don't believe in heaven. At least, not the kind of heaven you're talking about.

Proving That Prayer Is Superstition

What I'm interested in is whether it works, and used in the right way and in the right context superstition can be very effective.

Eight Steps You're Supposed To Take To Get To Heaven (But Probably Won't)

Can't really say much on that one yet. I'll get back to you.

I'm willing to do this, but please tell me whether it will teach me anything about myself, my religion or my God that I don't already know. Because from everything that you've posted here it seems to be a particularly facile and narrow attack based on a particularly narrow reading of a particularly narrow cross section of Christianity.

Between now and when I get a chance to post on the above links you're welcome to painstakingly point out to me what I do and don't believe so that your preconceived ideas are all detailed in full for when I get back.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:40 / 18.08.06
My *heart*ing of Seth knows no bounds.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:40 / 18.08.06
This is, as has been pointed out, about as welcome as a copy of the Watchtower shoved through the letterbox.

Mate, do you honestly believe that nobody here who has a theistic perspective has examined their beliefs, ever? Do you know how bloody offensive it is to walk into a forum lke the Temple and effectively call a fair chunk of the posters here a bunch of irrational morons?

Here's a radical suggestion for ya: How about actually reading some of the threads here before you wade in with your assumptions and your high-handed tone and start laying down the law? Maybe actually try engage with some of the ideas expressed here instead of standing there yelling at your clumsily-constructed straw man, you great pudding.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:45 / 18.08.06
Sorry for acting like one of those religious nutters dealing out pamphlets but we have to curtail the destruction and ignorance caused by religion somehow and this is the only way I know how to do my part.

Then find another way. I happen to be an atheist but I find your methods extremely counter-productive. Why not try following GH's advice rather than slapping down some links and running away giggling. Show some respect for others.

Thirty/thirty, are you joking? Seriously. I only ask because I'm not familier with you and I see you've been on the site awhile so presumably have some knowledge of how to behave.
 
 
Ganesh
10:47 / 18.08.06
That first post is like throwing a skilled-at-egg-sucking straw baby out with the bathwater.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
10:49 / 18.08.06
the destruction and ignorance caused by religion

S'funny, everywhere I look it's, uh, people. Secular, religious, doesn't seem to make any difference. People, far and wide, can be destructive and ignorant.

In fact, *double take*.
 
 
chairmanWOW
11:09 / 18.08.06
I’m burning! I’m burning! Ah! Just kidding. Good one, 30/30.

Darlings don't get mad. I'm not here to fight. Everyone take a deep breathe and step the fuck back. You're in a space place now.

I'm not going to argue with you. I was sent to earth spread the good message you see...by my father Grace Jones. He's coming back to the world and I'm here to prepare ya'll to be transported to his cloud castle. Just please, don’t crucify me before I’ve finished with my work.

Why would I want to do that? Why should I take a couple of hours to read through something I'm not interpreted in?

You don't have to read anything you don't want to, babe. In fact, you don't have to do anything you don't want to either...I promise. I'm just askin'...as a favour to your personal pal, which is me, to read through something you're not interested in and to then eventually denounce your beliefs so that peace may reign all over this world and so that perpetual harmony can be achieved. Is all.

Also Lucky, if you're having trouble with all that hour-long book learnin' you could alternatively just watch the 5 minute video of course. As a favour to a fellow 'lither naturally. I would soooo be grateful and stuff.

And of course, you're not a Christian. Calling you that would be an insult to your intelligence. No offence to all those lovely, miss-guided Christians out there.

I didn’t mean to spoil your day, my special mister Haystacks. It’s just that I want you all to see the glory and wonder that is the incredibly see-thru god I’m not worshipping. He’s fab.

I'm off again...for tea this time I think.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:15 / 18.08.06
Okay, I'm off to flag this in Policy because you, khorosho, are acting a lot like a troll.
 
 
ghadis
11:18 / 18.08.06
troll
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:21 / 18.08.06
Moving to lock.
 
 
chairmanWOW
11:22 / 18.08.06
I'm not a troll...I promise. Please don't tell daddy on me, please I'll be good.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:24 / 18.08.06
Fine. Then stop acting like a troll. Demonstrate some serious engagement rather than ineffectual pisstaking.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:32 / 18.08.06
Yeah, bad start to a thread. I'm also an atheist and, like the majority of people, have a problem with ignorance, selfishness, hypocrisy and etc. whether practised by me or others (also, I like the majority of people).

What I would say is that I've seen this attitude a few times, where a poster comes into a community which they consider irrational and starts lambasting people for being "religious", because "religion" causes all the world's problems. Quite often these days it's tied into some sort of anti-Muslim argument, or is some other "clever-sounding" way of being racist.

What I think you need to understand is that it's nearly always social, power factors that cause violence and bad shit, which violence and bad shit is then justified by appealing to whichever big ideology/religion is hanging around at that time and place, be it Islam in palestine, "Freedom and Democracy" in America, or Communism in Soviet Russia- when a set of complex, fluid ideas is being abused as a blunt instrument, it doesn't really matter what they are.
 
 
chairmanWOW
11:46 / 18.08.06
I was about to send you an angry-worded PM of contempt Mordant, but I shan't now. Okay everyone let's open up a debate.

I think religion was created by cave-dwellers to explain certain things occuring at the time in their then science-less world. I believe that Jesus was a charlatan...and not good kind who do psychedelic rock. So any thoughts?

And Legba Rex, I ain't anti-muslim. I'm anti-anything that preaches hate...so erm, on second thought I might then be anti-muslim. You see my gay pal Stu recently got lynched (yes, that still happens) and died. They wrote the words 'Die Faggot!' on his forehead in black marker with Levitikus whatever on his chest. Now I'm thinking, the people who did this will not go to 'hell' because they obeyed a direct order from something they've never seen or who's presence is oddly lacking. They were never caught but that's probably because they've got a deity on their side.

This is why I have embarked on my personal crusade to end this shit. If my methods are crude, forgive me.
 
 
Ticker
11:47 / 18.08.06
Being rude and offensive about anything automatically sets up a barrier between people and inforamtion. You're representing data through your presentation and well, you sound like a twit who hasn't bothered to explore the dynamics of belief.

I'm not talking about *what* people believe, but *why* they believe. You are exhibiting the same shitty dynamics of any fundie believer.

You can take the Divine out and slap in Science, or Nothing, or Two Pink Turtles, if the system of belief is geared to intolerance, as yours appears to be, it is still a loadstone around humanity's neck.

You think you have shrugged off the chains of false thinking but now you're just blind to the prison walls.
 
 
Seth
12:12 / 18.08.06
I don't want to lock this thread just yet. I'd like to post some more to it over the weekend.

khorosho: I think there's some discussion to be had here, and I'd like to have it. Are you up for that? I'm off to work in a minute but I'll have a chance to write more soon.
 
 
Char Aina
12:48 / 18.08.06
I'm anti-anything that preaches hate...so erm, on second thought I might then be anti-muslim.

i'm afraid my knowledge of the qu'uran and the words of allah's prophet mohammed is pretty scanty.
could you elaborate on the parts that deal with hate most clearly?

i'd also be interested to hear how you arrived at the decision that jesus was a charlatan. i've seen several ideas floated as to the origin story of that particular superhero, and would welcome some more.

i've heard he travelled with the three wise men back to thier home in nepal and was taught tenets of buddhism and i've also heard he was a hermetic thoth-lover, trained in egypt. i've heard more, but those are my favourite two.
i think i especially like the 'need' to ally one's tradition with jesus and the christian tradition.
lots of folks seem to want to say jesus was cool, he was one of us, and that all the christians just get him wrong.

if only they followed the true jesus, they seem to be saying, you would think just like me!

have you heard similar stories, or are you basing your opinion purely on the bible?
how do you feel about the other various collections of judaeo christian thought?
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:03 / 18.08.06
Two better online videos in my opinion in this area are by penn and teller and avalible at google video, they are in the bullshit series of programmes.

The Bible, taken literally, is bullshit!

Holier than thou

The bible link i think made for me a well needed look at some of my very recent intrests and exposure of late.

Holier than thou gave me a very good insight into the personalities that are involved in various religous institutions, and is a great reminder of how very human these people are.

I am going to do the whole series at some point (most of which seems to be online at google video), as i think it offers me a great way to start asking some questions of things that i havent really thought that well through of late.

Its also very handy from a belief point of view to carry a deconstructive tool kit, so the self doesnt become narrowly confined to one particular belief system and is open and tolerant to as many belief structures as possible without having faith in any of them, including the deconstructive process.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:29 / 18.08.06
I believe that Jesus was a charlatan...and not good kind who do psychedelic rock. So any thoughts?

Yes, I'd disagree that he was a charlatan, primarily because there is no real evidence to suggest that he was. Assuming he was anything like how he is presented in the bible (sans super-powers) then his development of a rather revolutionary (for the time and region) philosophy of non-violence, equality, and forgiveness seemed mightily impressive. I personally feel that you could do worse for a guidebook on how to treat others.

It is entirely possible that the person upon whom the current character of Jesus was based was not as pure and holy as he is commonly presented. I suppose that it is not completely impossible that he was the biblical equivelent of a snake-oil salesman. But the school of thought that has developed from the writings of his followers still have a great capability to educate and do good. As the person went to dust 2000+ years ago surely the message is what is important.

Can you tell I'm an ex-Christian? Those memes get in deep.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
13:31 / 18.08.06
A SCURED ex-Christian at that...er, whatever that means...
 
 
Ticker
13:34 / 18.08.06
Its also very handy from a belief point of view to carry a deconstructive tool kit, so the self doesnt become narrowly confined to one particular belief system and is open and tolerant to as many belief structures as possible without having faith in any of them, including the deconstructive process.

I agree it is important to have flexibility so one may exchange an Operating System of Belief for another that is more appropriate as needed. Or to have a modular system that allows for out grown beliefs to be swapped out as required.

However I do feel that faith can be flexible as well. One can have faith in a process separately from the way one abstractly views it without rendering the entire event as a falsehood.
For example I can have faith in mathematics while being critical of a specific equation or how I am approaching the equation.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
14:09 / 18.08.06
I'm anti-anything that preaches hate...so erm, on second thought I might then be anti-muslim. You see my gay pal Stu recently got lynched (yes, that still happens) and died. They wrote the words 'Die Faggot!' on his forehead in black marker with Levitikus whatever on his chest.

would that be the levitikus in the koran then?

logical proofs are good for some things. for some other things they are not so good. I feel that trying to "prove" that god does or does not exist is kind of like trying to prove the definition of a straight line.

science is very good at telling how things happen. science is not so good at telling why things happen. science is perhaps more helpful in explaining why people got sick and preventing it from happening in the future. science does not do so well, for many people, in explaining to them what the hell they "should" be doing with their lives. this is just, personally, one reason I am not ready to throw religion out despite being an engineer.

there are many, many things wrong with your arguments and the way you have presented them in this thread. please do not assume that "atheist" is automatically equivalent to "open-minded" or "enlightened". the death of your friend is very regretable. however if I knew someone who was killed by an atheist and I started telling everyone in some atheist gathering that the solution to world peace was to become christians I might understandably be labeled an agitator or just an idiot.

by the way, to get others' responses in bold don't use the square brackets, use the angly ones.
 
 
EvskiG
14:31 / 18.08.06
There are some interesting questions here which khorosho expressed very badly.

(Not very horrorshow, khorosho.)

Here are a few:

* What was the origin of religion? Can its origin be meaningfully traced at all?

* What functions does religion serve?

* To what extent does religion serve as a psychological crutch for some people?

* Does religion have legitimate functions other than as a psychological crutch?

* Was there a historical Jesus, and if so, what did he do or teach? Can one meaningfully say he was God or divinely inspired in some way? Can one meaningfully say anything about him so long after the fact, and with so little reliable evidence?

* Is there a significant connection between religion (as opposed to other aspects of human culture) and violence?

Sam Harris recently wrote a book called "The End of Faith" that addressed a lot of these questions. Here's an interview with him on Salon. And here's a quote from his book, which might serve as the basis for further discussion:

It takes a certain kind of person to believe what no one else believes. To be ruled by ideas for which you have no evidence (and which therefore cannot be justified in conversation with other human beings) is generally a sign that something is seriously wrong with your mind. Clearly there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are. This is not surprising, since most religions have merely canonized a few products of ancient ignorance and derangement and passed them down as though they were primordial truths. This leaves us believing what no sane person could believe on his own. In fact, it is difficult to imagine a set of beliefs more suggestive of mental illness than those that lie at the heart of many of our religious traditions.
 
 
Ticker
14:57 / 18.08.06
EvkG you've managed to retrieve some gold from the cesspit....can we number those points for quick ref?

I find a lot of arguements against religion are aimed at monotheistic traditions and not very aware of polytheistic traditons and how they are different.

For example in my polytheistic tradition there is no claim of an omnipresent Omniscient single Creator. My definintion of my Gods ability is wholly different than what is represented in monotheistic traditions. I know there are limits to what They can and will do.
 
 
illmatic
15:21 / 18.08.06
I like Sam Harris, because for one thing he differentiates between different religions, and has taken the time to understand the specificity of terms used in some Eastern faiths. He's quite taken with Taoism (a religion that doesn't have a God - which I'd imagine would be news to the woefully underinformed thread starter), IIRC and some variants of Buddhism. Most atheists that I've encountered don't seem to do this, and focus as Seth said, on a very narrow strand of Christianity.

Khoshoro: I think you should start with the realisation that the words "religion" and "God" mean a lot of different things to different people, and your understandings of the terms you are using is not necessairily shared by your audience. I feel I understand what you mean when you are using these words - but I'm pretty certain you don't have a clue what I mean, or what my beliefs are. (Unless you've been secretly lurking and reading the Temple everyday and not posting, which I doubt.) I'm unsure even that the possibility of another understanding has even occured to you. Possibly a good way to find out what they mean to differing individuals would be to ASK them, and then listen with both your ears open, rather than tell them they're wrong.

I think religion was created by cave-dwellers to explain certain things occuring at the time in their then science-less world.

Well then, to go back to my early question which you failed to even acknowledge, let alone answer, why does it still exist? We have the wonders of science all around us. They make the modern world possible. So why are people still religious? What is it giving them? What is it doing? Is it doing somethign that science fails to do? What exactly?
 
 
petunia
15:27 / 18.08.06
I'm sorry to hear about your friend, khorosho.

I understand that you are feeling incredibly frustrated and angry at humankind's propensity for unmitigated meanness and stupidity.

I can see that you want to change this situation, but that it all seems a bit fruitless - like arguing agaisnt the wind.

Sometimes, you just gotta shout your anger and vent the welling frustration, eh?

But relax. You're around good people here. Nice people (Even when Mordant says mean things, she's often just trying to do you good...). So there's no need to shout.

We can have a nice, relaxed discussion about the craziness of the humaners, and how a lot of this madness seems to stem from religious or ideological roots. Maybe we'll even approach some new ways of thinking for you. Perhaps we'll find 'answers'... Sound good?

Great.

So.. Where to begin? I don't suppose it matters, so i'll just make a few points as they arrive at my head...

- Ignoring the fact that the critiques you have posted are not particuarly great in terms of either originality or effect, why did you choose to use a critique of a certain conception of the christian god as a tool to 'combat' religion as a whole?

I doubt the'Odinists/Ra followers or Holy Monkey worshippers' are particularly fussed whether or not ol' yahweh makes much sense or is imaginary. I doubt many Muslims are that fussed either, though I can see that they are closer related to this conception of divinity.

So how to counter these other religions? Would you say that their god(s) are imaginary too?

- What's so bad about an imaginary god anyway? Have you read Patrick Harpur's Daimonic Reality? It poses some very interesting thoughts about how we interact with reality and frequently preceive things which seem to blur the 'reality/imagination' line.


Promethea also has a lot to say about how imagination works in our lives. It has lots of pictures and hot goddesses in it too, if that's your thing.

To put it simply, both books point out that imagination plays a much greater role in our lives than a few hundred years of rationalism would have us believe.

I recommend you look into how imagination informs the reality you are currently experiencing. You might 'discover something'.

- One idea to put forward - is it specifically people who have religous beliefs who cause war, pain, suffering and all that, or is it people who cling unnerringly to certain ideas and ideals?

Communism has already been mentioned. Communism is explicitly anit-religious - many religious buildings, organisations and people were destroyed by the communist regimes in Russia and China (and, i assume, in other places where communism has taken off).

However, some of the most ridiculous genocides, wars and human rights abuses have occured in communist societies. Can we blame religion for this?

Personally, I'd say that ideology is one of the major causes of human strife. The human mind seems to enjoy clinging to certain ideas about how life is, or should be, and often goes to great (sometimes awful) lengths to try to make reality accord with these images.

That religions usually entail groups of people getting together and adhering to/forming an ideology makes them a rather easy target, but people have been killed in the names justice, progress, society, rationalism, revolution...

So do you perhaps want to look into how our ideologies (yes, we all have them - yours in 'anti-god') inform our relationships with reality?

- Does the fact that Christianity holds such a powerful grip over your imagination point to some unsolved issues you have with this particular form of religious thought?

So. Whaddya think?
 
  

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