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Underground > Radio & Music >

The High Society or, On Music and Race

  
  

Page: 12(3)456

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:22 / 07.07.06
My overall impression is "yes, they broke the cookie jar, but it's really the fault of the person who put the cookies in the jar, and the person who put the jar so reachably on the counter, and the jar manufacturer for its lax manufacturing standards." The cookie-jar-breaker gets a passing mention, but the blame is swiftly shifted.

Interesting. Do you believe that that is Bell Hooks' intention, or that Bell Hooks betrays her own prejudices by saying that against her intention, or is there a reason why that is your overall impression outside the text itself, do you think?

Dead Megatron, please read the article.At least twice. Slowly.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:23 / 07.07.06
I don't think her comments are exactly buried in the context (which isn't exactly what you said - you said "not once" did it cross her mind).

I think what hooks is saying, and what I agree wholeheartedly with, is this: violent/misogynistic lyrical content in hip hop (and these days sometimes r&b) is usually treated as if it were a freak isolated case, the only instance of violence and misogyny in all of popular (or high) culture, whereas in fact our culture is thick with violence and misogyny, it is where we dwell (in the years since hooks wrote that piece, a new 'argument' has arisen that says "yes our culture is thick with violence and misogyny, and rap is to blame!", make of that what you will - I made a HEADDESK). I think she gives a proportional amount of time to the responsibility that needs to be taken by rappers, proportionate to the blame that can be realistically laid at hip hop's feet for spreading violence and misogyny if one were to genuinely apply the same standards the media apply to hip hop to the rest of culture and society.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:50 / 07.07.06
Flyboy, you're right. I totally overstated my case there. Upon reflection, I suspect I'm reacting more to what I want her to be saying, rather than what she actually is.

Going to make some space in my brain and re-approach all of this tomorrow, when work is a bit less frustrating and I have more time to think it over, and apply the Wikipedia "assume good faith" policy.
 
 
ibis the being
16:07 / 07.07.06
What exactly is the purpose of this thread? While there are fits and starts of some interesting discussions going on, I'm not sure this apparent catch-all of a thread will permit them to go anywhere productive.

Ostensibly the purpose of the thread, at least according to Kay, is to a render a simple "descriptive" statement -
some black artists produce music which portrays black people in a negative light. If that's the case I might as well start a thread that says "some American cartoons in the 1940s showed racist depictions of the Japanese," or even "some novels have sexist portrayals of women in them." Are these random "descriptive" statements of any use? This is the equivalent of the third grade book report - "This book was very long. I liked it." If you're going to start a thread about "some black artists produce music which portrays black people in a negative light," maybe you want to give an indication of why you are pointing that out, what larger issues it relates to either in music, black culture, American culture, or something.

But I suspect the truth is this stated purpose of the thread was disingenuous and the real purpose is to convince us that you, Kay, are not a racist. And frankly, it concerns me not at all whether you are a racist, or a unicyclist, or a Zoroastrian - I'm not able to see into your heart from here anyway. All that concerns me is what you contribute to the board, and yes whether your contributions are racist does matter, but it seems as though you're asking for some larger judgement on your soul, maybe just your personality, from us. And why would you want that?
 
 
Char Aina
16:59 / 07.07.06
seems to me like kay loves and respects barbelith* and, as a result, cares deeply about what barbelith thinks.

imagine for a second if barbelith was calling you a racist.
try it, all of you.
you'd prolly cry, wouldnt you?

thing is, no one has actually called kay a racist, and i dont think defending hirself as though someone has is having anything like the effect intended.

seems like barbelith could well have gone from not thinking kay was a racist to still not thinking kay is a racist, but with extra 'prolly hangin on a little too tight, though' frosting.


*
you kinda need to think of barbelith as one thing.
not really accurate, but perhaps useful on occasion?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:08 / 07.07.06
Dead Megatron, a couple of questions:

1) When you say of bell hooks ANd the conclusion she arrives at is, of course, "It's not our fault. At all"., what is the "our" there? It has already been explained to you that bell hooks is not a rapper, but a black feminist writer. Are we to assume that you are assuming that bell hooks is making excuses for all black people, in her role as spokeswoman for all black people?

2) Now that Mattshepherd has admitted, very admirably, that his reading of the article was coloured by his personal feelings, will you go with his attitude shift, or maintain that your reading of the article is correct even though nobody who has actually read it agrees with you?

3) Have you read the article, and do you intend ever to do so? Will you read the source text next time something is referenced before commenting?

These are quite serious questions.

As for Kay - it seems that Kay will do anything to avoid conceding that he was a victim of the desire to spout a slightly better punctuated version of about the same prejudice Dead Megatron has espoused. This includes dissembling, when dissembling fails outright fibbing, and then storming off in a welter of vague accusations, followed by pretending that nothing has happened. It's not a great way to conduct one's affairs, but hopefully it's working out OK for him.

I'm curious to know how we feel about this apparently very modish readiness to make sweeping statements about race from a position of startling and carefully-maintained ignorance that we seem to be getting on Barbelith at the moment. I'm wondering if we ought to be thinking of putting something in the Policy.
 
 
Char Aina
00:27 / 08.07.06
i think that might be a little premature.
people sometimes need room to breathe, and i feel nothing will be lost by waiting a day or so.

i am assuming you are going to bed now, though, so i guess that day will pass anyway.

kay, i reckon you might want to take a day to think.
if you still feel the same way, you wont have lost anything.
if you dont... well, who knows?


and DM?
read the goddamn article.
please.
commenting without having done so is making you look like a buffoon.
 
 
*
02:01 / 08.07.06
imagine for a second if barbelith was calling you a racist.
try it, all of you.
you'd prolly cry, wouldnt you?

A year ago, yeah. Since then I've learned that I am, actually, racist, in that I hold ideas which are based on racial prejudice and my own white privilege. I've also learned that "racist" does not necessarily signify "has homicidal intentions toward people of other races" or "is not worthy of existence." Now, if "Barbelith" called me racist, I would thank hir politely and ruthlessly examine what I'd said or done to see what I need to change about myself in order to keep from thoughtlessly perpetuating racism. So yeah, I have sympathy for people who vehemently resist taking responsibility for their own racism, because it's a scary and painful thing to face— but it must be faced.
 
 
Dead Megatron
02:01 / 08.07.06
Haus, a couple of answers

1) When you say of bell hooks ANd the conclusion she arrives at is, of course, "It's not our fault. At all"., what is the "our" there? It has already been explained to you that bell hooks is not a rapper, but a black feminist writer. Are we to assume that you are assuming that bell hooks is making excuses for all black people, in her role as spokeswoman for all black people?

You can choose whatever “our” you want. Don’t make no difference. The point, for me, is that any given oneself gets to blame someone else for one's personal choices, be that "someone else" men, women, white people, rich people, George Bush, the Pope, mom and dad, the voices in my head, or God. The point is the “other-ization” of blame. In this case, we have a black feminist writer, making excuses for gangsta rappers (of any color, it seems) and their behavior. It's not for herself she makes excuses, but such line of reasoning can be applied to oneself or to anyone one feels any shred of connection with.

2) Now that Mattshepherd has admitted, very admirably, that his reading of the article was coloured by his personal feelings, will you go with his attitude shift, or maintain that your reading of the article is correct even though nobody who has actually read it agrees with you?

Yelding to peer pressure, you suggest? Weel, I would, and happily so, but the thing is, I don’t really care about the article in itself, only with the general Idea of “it’s not our/their fault”, etc, etc (read above again). And besides, what reading of the article? (see below now)

3) Have you read the article, and do you intend ever to do so? Will you read the source text next time something is referenced before commenting?

I might even read the article eventually, out of curiosity. Although, as far as I understand, it talks also of a movie called the Piano, and I have a huge problem with anything even vaguely connected to a naked Harvey Keytel (I still have nightmares with Bad Lieutenant). Anyway, since my interest is not in the article itself (read above again and again), it is unlikely reading it will change my mind on the subject. (And, if I do read, I'm not even sure I’ll tell anyway)

You see, as you may remember from previous episodes, I work as a reporter for the Police ruling Government branch in my hometown, covering crimes and military parades (depending on how good has been my day). In this profession, I keep hearing a lot, both from the criminal themselves and their families as well as from people who happen to live a thousand miles or more away from the actual problem, things like “society’s is to blame”, “they did it to me/him first”, blah, blah, and blah. So forgive if I don’t buy it. After all, I have to see up-close the aftermath of that attitude. Hell spare me, I have walked over the dry blood of dead people, of murdered people, not only fighter (from both sides) but also innocent bystanders. I know why that rationale doesn't fly, isn't supposed to fly. I can feel the why crawling under my skin sometimes.

So, to its own extend as opposed to actual crimes like murder or theft or rape, the glorification of misogyny, consumerism, violence, and self-interest sung in gangsta rap (which I find to be a, let’s say, “lesser” form of music that ruins, or at least hurts, the good political work hip-hop often does) is not excusable in any way. After all, I, being raised as a Catholic, believe in such a thing as free will (as opposed to this "determinism" invoked in that rationale).


These are quite serious questions.

There, there, of course they are.

As for Kay - it seems that Kay will do anything to avoid conceding that he was a victim of the desire to spout a slightly better punctuated version of about the same prejudice Dead Megatron has espoused.

You gonna have to help me with that. What prejudice, exactly? Against black people? Against gangsta rapper? (actually, a little bit guilty on that one) Against feminist writers? Agsainst Harvey Keitel mighty nudity? Against articles? Against, perchance, you? Weel, I can't talk about Kay, but I just don’t like the line of reasoning that says… well, by now you must’ve got it.

This includes dissembling, when dissembling fails outright fibbing, and then storming off in a welter of vague accusations

ok, now you’re just making up words...

followed by pretending that nothing has happened.

Well, let's be frank now: not much has happened here, has i? Nothing important, at least. In the big picture, I mean.

It's not a great way to conduct one's affairs, but hopefully it's working out OK for him.

Well, I’m so sorry if I didn't respond right way and in proper length to your post, but you see, I was working at the time (I’m home now), and just so happens today some guy who probably thinks life is not his fault decided it was a swell idea to put a home-made bomb on a train car full of people going to work and we got eleven wounded and I kinda spent the whole day on the phone after details (oh, such fun!), which left me only a couple of minutes here and there to make a quick, unwinding stop on Barbelith’s fora that less serious than Convo – where, paradoxally, we can find much better conversations – for some short comment on something like a possible Hulk sequel, and not this monster I’m writing right now. Unless you’d settle for “Nope”...

Anyway, I assure you I'm right here.

I'm curious to know how we feel about this apparently very modish readiness to make sweeping statements about race from a position of startling and carefully-maintained ignorance that we seem to be getting on Barbelith at the moment. I'm wondering if we ought to be thinking of putting something in the Policy.

Christ Fucking His Mother on Prime Time Television, for the last time: NOT ABOUT RACE. ABOUT EXCUSES FOR UNACEPTABLE BEHAVIOR*...

[* a behavior which I'm sure you don't approve that much, and of which, as explained above, I am nowhere near a "position of startling and carefully-maintained ignorance"]

But, wait a moment! Did you just threat me with possible banishment over me disagreeing with you and not wanting to read an article and not subjecting and conforming to you and your cadre of followers? Really? Seriously?

Ok, then.


By the way, how much of your day exaclty do you spend thinking and writing all those admonishing posts on the 'lith?. Because, in here, it's 23:32 and I'm leaving for the night of Friday [note: posted 23:55, after my "date" arrived to pick me up] You, I imagine, was at home at, what?, 2 a.m. of a Fridat night, writing all these. Is this your only hobby? Or you just suffer from insomnia?

PS. aftger that, it's weekend. Don't expect any swift response to any response to this response. In the mean time, I'll leave you with the words of... The Dogg Pound:

Yeah, this is for the ballers - gangsta rap
What all the hoes love - gangsta rap
What the hoppin six-fo's do - gangsta rap
You could do what you want to - gangsta rap
[Crooked I]
Nigga, I buy new blocks for war
A few shots, a broad, that make you drop
Then I'ma pop two cops or more
I'm too hot, come through wit two proper whores
Playin Tupac Shakur, gettin 'em blue socks the Lord
Crooked I's the name, man that boy just hopped off the train
wearin a platinum chain striked with thang
It's the youth game, doin it big
You don't like it, you and yo' kid get you and the whip, shit
Nigga, I spray clips, shots flop quicker than space ships
Then shapeshift yo' facial Matrix like a facelift
So face it, y'all ain't nuttin to see
Ain't a nigga dead or alive who fuckin wit me

Thank you for listening and good night.
 
 
Aertho
04:03 / 08.07.06
Id:

So rascism's like herpes then, and not like a runny nose?

We must be personally responsible to use preventative medicines to avoid visible flare-ups as well as transfer of the virus. I like that. I wonder if that analogy will work with my grandpa.
 
 
*
04:07 / 08.07.06
Sleep well, DM. I hope you'll feel more like an adult when you next post here.

You seem to be so invested in this particular opinion you hold that you can't listen to people without getting angry. You can't defend your opinion without getting angry. Haus is not the only one who sees the racism in your argument here, and it's the racism that Barbelith has a history of intolerance toward, not disagreements with Haus. (If everyone who had ever disagreed with Haus were banned, Barbelith would be empty, and Haus would probably have to ban himself last.) The fact that you are getting so angry and reactionary about this matter to me makes your argument suspect, since no one attacked you directly— although admittedly, since you nailed yourself down to your opinion, people have been getting increasingly frustrated with you.

What exactly has been attacked here? The cultural system of white supremacism, which feeds/feeds on stereotypes of Black people. If you feel attacked, it's worth considering whether maybe it's because you have a lot invested in this system.

James Bond movies. FULL of violence and misogyny. (And racism, but we'll leave that aside for a moment.) Are James Bond movies to blame for the rampant spread of violence and misogyny in white culture? How about the proliferation of white-on-white crime? White men often identify themselves with James Bond, and he kills people, which to me is unacceptable behavior. If you see a white guy dressed in a James Bond tux, do you worry that he might consider himself to have a "license to kill"?

What's the unacceptable behavior you refer to, anyway? Is it anything which can be realistically traced to rap music in terms of actual evidence and logical reasoning?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:52 / 08.07.06
In this case, we have a black feminist writer, making excuses for gangsta rappers (of any color, it seems) and their behavior.

Oh? So, you read the article?

Ah, hang on. No, you didn't. You decided that you didn't need to. After all, you must know what it said better than any black woman - even the black woman who wrote it.

Jesus.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:49 / 08.07.06
id: James Bond movies are indeed providing bad role models for our young people by suggesting that all international problems can be solved by killing. Let's have a look at another contributor to our violent, misogynist society. Dead Megatron said elsewhere:

And Gorilazz is one of the few new things I can listen that were made in the last 12 years (since Kobain got "deaded")

Now, Kurt Cobain is a bad example for kids anyway, since he makes irresponsible firearms behaviour sound "cool", but let's have a look at his lyrics:

Load up on guns and bring your friends

Is that a good message for our kids?

She had a moist vagina
I've been tickling the circumference
I've been sucking the walls of her anus

Disgusting.

Elsewhere, Dead Megatron expressed his wish for a Pink Floyd reunion. The Pink Floyd who said:

Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one's a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There's one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I'd have all of you shot!

Remember, we don't have to think about context, here - we wouldn't if they were black, and we are, absolutely, positively, not treating people of different races differently. Remember, this isn't about race, it's about not making excuses for unacceptable behaviour - unacceptable behaviour like gang violence, rather than unacceptable behaviour like repeatedly misrepresenting the writing of a black woman as exculpating gang violence, despite not having read it. Not to refuse to read what a black woman is saying before deciding what she has said would be the very worst kind of racism - PC racism.

So, the Pink Floyd:

Waiting to cut out the deadwood.
Waiting to clean up the city.
Waiting to follow the worms.
Waiting to put on a black shirt.
Waiting to weed out the weaklings.
Waiting to smash in their windows
And kick in their doors.
Waiting for the final solution
To strengthen the strain.
Waiting to follow the worms.
Waiting to turn on the showers
And fire the ovens.
Waiting for the queens and the coons
and the reds and the jews.
Waiting to follow the worms

Then, of course, there's the bling:

Money, get away.
Get a good job with good pay and you're okay.
Money, it's a gas.
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash.
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team.

Money, get back.
I'm all right Jack keep your hands off of my stack.
Money, it's a hit.
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit.
I'm in the high-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet.


Or, of course, the gun culture:

You have a natural tendency
To squeeze off a shot
You're good fun at parties
You wear the right masks
You're old but you still
Like a laugh in the locker room
You can't abide change
You're at home on the range
You opened your suitcase
Behind the old workings
To show off the magnum
You deafened the canyon
A comfort a friend
Only upstaged in the end
By the Uzi machine gun
Does the recoil remind you
Remind you of sex

Not to mention:

One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces

Is that the message we want prog rock to teach our kids?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:28 / 08.07.06
Dead Megatron really is one of the most wilfully ignorant people ever to post on this board, isn't he?
 
 
feline
15:10 / 08.07.06
Cheap shot, Flyboy. There have been some interesting replies about DM's post, but a statement about what kind of person he is doesn't add anything to the arguments in this thread, in my opinion.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:12 / 08.07.06
I've said it before and I'll say it again, but it's funny how the people who get really, really angry about all that nasty misogynistic gangsta rap music these days tend not to be radical feminists, but rather men who are quite happy to spend a lot of time themselves banging on about their winky and how much they love the sexy ladies and how the sexy ladies love the way they sex (indeed in this case it's someone keen to discredit a radical feminist, through the rather odd process of not reading what she has written and instead indulging in a monologue which simultaneously attacks a position she explicitly opposes and also suggests that the man in question has got all his opinions on crime and society from reading The Dark Knight Returns...).
 
 
The Falcon
15:14 / 08.07.06
Also:

Oh, so I was right,after all? Well, I wish I could say that was a surprise.

Statistically, I would consider this amazing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:15 / 08.07.06
lazy feline, if you can come up with a better example of a behaviour that defines "wilfull ignorance" other than "fiercely and defensively maintaining an opinion about a (remarkably short) piece of writing which you consistently and proudly refuse to read", I'm all ears.
 
 
ibis the being
17:39 / 08.07.06
Sorry if this is off-topic (not sure as I'm a little foggy as to what the topic is at this point) but Haus's latest posts reminded me of a piece by Damali Ayo where she tells a story about going to a bar with her girlfriends and the Rolling Stones tune "Brown Sugar" comes on the jukebox. One of her friends exclaims, "I love this song!" Ayo responds, "Do you know the words?" The friend says of course she does but Ayo insists she probably doesn't and then 'sings' along loudly in a wry tone (I heard her do this on the radio) -

Gold coast slave ship bound for cotton fields,
Sold in a market down in new orleans.
Scarred old slaver know hes doin alright.
Hear him whip the women just around midnight.
Ah brown sugar how come you taste so good
(a-ha) brown sugar, just like a young girl should
A-huh.

Drums beating, cold english blood runs hot,
Lady of the house wondrin where its gonna stop.
House boy knows that hes doin alright.
You should a heard him just around midnight.
Ah brown sugar how come you taste so good
(a-ha) brown sugar, just like a black girl should
A-huh.
 
 
matthew.
18:11 / 08.07.06
I read the article fully and liked it. I followed the discussion here, mostly skimming DM's posts (no offense, buddy!).

I have a question for Haus, non-snark.

Here's how I'm understanding your argument using Pink Floyd. Floyd's lyrics have context and meaning and are not to be taken at face value while gangsta rap is currently being taken at face value, which is a bad thing because there is a deeper meaning to it?

I'm an avid Floyd fan, so my first reaction was to say, "Holy shit! You are completely misrepresenting the lyrics to In the Flesh!" But then I thought what is outlined in the previous paragraph to this one.

Am I understanding your argument correctly, Haus? That gangsta rap is no more dangerous than Pink Floyd? And that people allow Floyd to be complex and layered and revoke that from rap? Correct me if I'm wrong, the rest of the post relies on my assumption.

I'm also a hip-hop* fan thanks to, in part, Barbelith. I think there's quite a bit happening in that genre that the mainstream media and MTV is completely ignoring. Not all of it is bling, bitches and pimps. Unfortunately, MTV/media critics latches on to that aspect. And takes the approach that it's dangerous and morally bankrupt and possibly detrimental to the completely innocent and perfect white suburban culture. Which is utterly bunk, if I'm understanding Haus' argument correctly.

What is interesting, and I think I'm going to start a thread on it, is the materialism so present within mainstream music as a whole. My thoughts are a little cluttered here, so bear with me.

I don't think it's necessarily a negative thing that music is approaching a very materialistic and commodity-obsessed viewpoint. It's not new, as Haus points out with his quoting of Money (even though Roger Waters was being ironic with those lyrics (and has explicitly said so in interviews), not everybody is going to search for deeper meaning and will take the lyrics at the surface). (I would like to avoid annoying nostalgia about flowers in my hair).

I get a sense that mainstream rap is more concerned with material goods than other mainstream genres. It is a commodity that 50 Cent sells us, along with the legend of the hustla. The article said that white suburbanites take on gangsta rap as a rebellion to the white supremacist capitalist patriarchy . Why have they not taken on other types of rap to rebell, like an anarchist, a terrorist, or a freedomfighter? Why are we consuming so happily the image of a pimp, a hustla? Why do we want to pay tha cost to be tha boss? IMHO, all the mainstream "types" in rap are all businessmen. Why is that exactly? This is not rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested. Once again, I must point out that I don't think it's negative, but I would prefer to see a broader scope of mainstream MCs. Let me see the feminist intellectual ecofriendly MC get played on MTV right after Chamillionaire. I want to see it all.


* or gangsta, or trip-hop, or whatever. Rap, let's say.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:48 / 08.07.06
This strikes me as very much ontopic, considering that the title of the thread invokes music and race, and the first post argues that music largely produced by black people is responsible for negative perceptions of black people. When you think how many times "Brown Sugar" has been played and listened to, I suspect it has had a greater impact than, say, the Geto Boys, not a single note of whom I think I could recall.

Of course, the Rolling Stones also penned such classics as "Under My Thumb":

Under my thumb
The girl who once had me down
Under my thumb
The girl who once pushed me around

It's down to me
The difference in the clothes she wears
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb

Ain't it the truth babe?

Under my thumb
The squirmin' dog who's just had her day
Under my thumb
A girl who has just changed her ways

It's down to me, yes it is
The way she does just what she's told
Down to me, the change has come
She's under my thumb
Ah, ah, say it's alright

Under my thumb
A siamese cat of a girl
Under my thumb
She's the sweetest, hmmm, pet in the world

It's down to me
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Ah, take it easy babe
Yeah

It's down to me, oh yeah
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Yeah, it feels alright

Under my thumb
Her eyes are just kept to herself
Under my thumb, well I
I can still look at someone else

It's odd - I never knew they were black, but with that level of racism and misogyny, I suppose they must be.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:50 / 08.07.06
even though Roger Waters was being ironic with those lyrics (and has explicitly said so in interviews)

Nuh-nuh. No context!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:54 / 08.07.06
Is the Roger Waters suit still here? It's keeping veeery quiet, if so.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:59 / 08.07.06
It has mutated Stoat. Word to the wise.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:01 / 08.07.06
OK, I'll rephrase that. Is the Billy Corgan suit still here?

I want them to have a fight.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:02 / 08.07.06
Actually, more the 'meme' perhaps than the 'suit' - Roger Waters would never wear a suit, unless he was accepting an award at the 'Mojo's' or related, I guess.
 
 
Ganesh
19:06 / 08.07.06
Yeah, in an interview in April '92's Rolling Stone, Waters is quoted as saying, "it was a JOKE!!1!"
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:09 / 08.07.06
I meant more a type of battlesuit, with guns and missiles and stuff.

For both of them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:01 / 08.07.06
Sorry, Matt - I do have a fuller answer to that, but I have been out having a "date", so it may have to wait until tomorrow.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:04 / 09.07.06
Holy fuck this is so depressing.
 
 
Ganesh
01:17 / 09.07.06
I dunno. The thought of Haus "dating" makes me feel quite jolly.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:47 / 09.07.06
Well, at least he'll be regular...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:44 / 09.07.06
Well, that was sexy.

Matt:

Here's how I'm understanding your argument using Pink Floyd. Floyd's lyrics have context and meaning and are not to be taken at face value while gangsta rap is currently being taken at face value, which is a bad thing because there is a deeper meaning to it?

I'm an avid Floyd fan, so my first reaction was to say, "Holy shit! You are completely misrepresenting the lyrics to In the Flesh!" But then I thought what is outlined in the previous paragraph to this one.

Am I understanding your argument correctly, Haus? That gangsta rap is no more dangerous than Pink Floyd? And that people allow Floyd to be complex and layered and revoke that from rap? Correct me if I'm wrong, the rest of the post relies on my assumption.

I'm also a hip-hop* fan thanks to, in part, Barbelith. I think there's quite a bit happening in that genre that the mainstream media and MTV is completely ignoring. Not all of it is bling, bitches and pimps. Unfortunately, MTV/media critics latches on to that aspect. And takes the approach that it's dangerous and morally bankrupt and possibly detrimental to the completely innocent and perfect white suburban culture. Which is utterly bunk, if I'm understanding Haus' argument correctly.


That's about right, yes. Essentially, if we look at what Dead Megatron did above - which is a pretty common tactic for members of the censorious right wing - we see that he has quoted some lyrics by Snoop Dogg, on the grounds that these lyrics, wihout context, are proof positive that rap (which he is using here in opposition to "hip hop" - Flyboy talks about this also) is violent, misogynistic etc.

However, we do indeed find that if you apply the same rules - total denial of any possible interpretation of the lyrics except that they are precisely mirroring the thought processes and life choices of the singer - to the music of bands of whom Dead Megatron expresses admiration, we find that by those rules they are espousng violence, hate, misogyny, gun crime, et alia. However, DM would never have thought of doing this, because he is exceptionally credulous, and has only ever been told that one should do that with rap rather than with prog rock or grunge. Because, of course, as soon as you do you find people saying:

(even though Roger Waters was being ironic with those lyrics (and has explicitly said so in interviews)

That is, pulling out supporting materials that exonerate the artist from accusations of advocating the behaviour they are describing.

That's the first thread. The second thread is a rather nasty set of assumptions about how the people who listen to rap (broadly, black people) are so very easily swayed that they will uncritically go out and repeat whatever they have heard, whereas people who listen to Nirvana (broadly, white people) will not then abduct women or kill people, people who listen to Pink Floyd will not go out beating up black people and people who listen to the Rolling Stones will not attempt to subjugate women, because they are all clever.

Must restart PC - more later.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:29 / 09.07.06
And speaking of PC, was it only six months ago that we were enjoining Dead Megatron to read the barest and most basic source materials before shooting his mouth off about a term that he is still using from a position of ignorance? Why, so it is. Lazy feline, this might help you to understand why, after going through this pretty much every single time he opens his yap, we're all a bit tired of it.

So. Matt, you then said:

I'm also a hip-hop* fan thanks to, in part, Barbelith. I think there's quite a bit happening in that genre that the mainstream media and MTV is completely ignoring. Not all of it is bling, bitches and pimps.

Fortunately, there's a thread in which this is discussed at some length, before it descends into madness, which can be found here - I'm not an expert, but the thrust of much of the conversation there is that it seems harder to separate "bling, bitches and pimps" from "conscious hip hop" than it might at first appear, and also that there are different standards by which these things are judged, and that it is worth noting that the one that is often perceived by the middle classes on message boards as most well-argued and reasonable is often the one put down by the middle classes. For example, I might well see somebody talking about their big car as vulgar and gratuitous, while not feeling the same way about somebody talking about their big angst, but that's just me. To quote Flyboy quoting Jay-Z:

"Rap critics that say 'he's money, cash, hoes'
I'm from the hood, stupid, what kind of facts are those?
If you grew up with holes in your zapatoes
You'd celebrate the minute you were having dough..."
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:09 / 09.07.06
That's the first thread. The second thread is a rather nasty set of assumptions about how the people who listen to rap (broadly, black people) are so very easily swayed that they will uncritically go out and repeat whatever they have heard, whereas people who listen to Nirvana (broadly, white people) will not then abduct women or kill people, people who listen to Pink Floyd will not go out beating up black people and people who listen to the Rolling Stones will not attempt to subjugate women, because they are all clever.

I wouldn't say this is entirely the case. Nowadays hip-hop really is a pan-cultural phenomenon, and there are people of all races who copy negative behaviours and attitudes from hip-hop. Perhaps it's based more on class than race.
There could also be another implicit assumption at play here, that black hip-hop artists are incapable of grasping concepts like narrative and irony and generally lack the imagination to create stories or present their lyrics 'in character' (Roger Waters, for example, is in character as a racist, like Edward Norton in American History X).
 
  

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