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Underground > Radio & Music >

The High Society or, On Music and Race

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Kiltartan Cross

20:03 / 06.07.06

This thread refers to my post and reactions over in the Games and Gameplay thread, Id Entity Thinks (&c.).

(Id Entity)

This, just like Kay's digression about Black people and how they all like to perpetuate racism against themselves by portraying themselves as violent misogynists, places the blame for racism squarely on the people who are oppressed by it.

Forgive me - I was trying to refrain from posting again - but that is not and was never the point I was trying to convey, nor do I wish to be associated with that viewpoint in any way. Hence this thread.

In fine:

1) Sony were obviously, blatantly wrong.
2) It's a drop in the ocean compared to the corpus of music and imagery which portrays black* people in a negative light.
3) Much of this music is, ironically enough, produced by black artists.

Let me add, then, to hopefully put my point beyond further question:

4) The ethos of music produced by black artists, or anyone else, is of course not homogeneous, over distance or over time.
5) By stating that some black artists produce music which portrays black people in a negative light, I intend only to describe. I intend no condemnation, or criticism.
6) Music itself has, in my perception been the single greatest cultural export of black (United States of) Americans over the last hundred years**. I realise that this is a sweeping generalisation, but I believe it to be more or less correct. Music, therefore, in my belief, is a reasonable, representative and powerful example to cite.

And further, personally:

7) I am a music lover. To use music as an example falls naturally to me.
8) I am a natural philosopher. I hold no ambition higher, for any given subject, than finding and stating the best possible approximation to the truth.
9) Race, sex, and sexuality carry very little weight with me. I had assumed that this was recognised as a sine qua non here.

I apologise for any offence I have caused by my failure to state my point clearly. I believe it stands better as stated above.

*I am reminded that the word itself is perhaps offensive. I aim purely to describe.
**And also of white (USo) Americans. Perhaps I subconsciously rank music higher than other arts.

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:15 / 06.07.06

Why the aversion to posting in the Music forum, where there's already been a significant amount of discussion about hip hop, politics, lyrical content, etc?

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:20 / 06.07.06

But, Kay, what you actually _said_ was that it was pointless to worry about these little bits of colour prejudice thought up by Sony in the face of all the colour prejudice that was being facilitated by black people, by producing violently misogynistic music. Are you saying that this was absolutely not what you meant? If so, can you clarify what you meant by come on in the thread where you said that? Only, we come across this phrase quite often in these situations, and it seems to have a meaning akin to "I order you to assume that whatever I am saying is acceptable by dint of the fact that I am saying it". Which ties into:

Race, sex, and sexuality carry very little weight with me. I had assumed that this was recognised as a sine qua non here.

To which I think the short answer is "I would very strongly advise you not to assume that", but I'm not quite sure how you're using sine qua non here. Could you explain?

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:23 / 06.07.06

I aim purely to describe.

I'm pretty sure, by the way, that this defence has been used a few times by rap artists. Any reason we should give you the benefit of the doubt, but not them?

21:01 / 06.07.06

Shouldn't we give everybody the benefit of the doubt?

Regrettable Juvenilia

21:10 / 06.07.06

Well, in this case that would mean giving Kay the benefit of the doubt with regards to the use of the term "black", and giving musicians the benefit of the doubt with regards to their own lyrical content. That would be a consistent line to take, but it's not the one Kay is proposing.

21:12 / 06.07.06

I see your point. Sorry for interupting

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:18 / 06.07.06

Well, Dead Megatron, that's an interesting question. The short answer is that the benefit of the doubt means different things to different people. Shadowsax, for example, still wanted the benefit of the doubt at a point when there was for many no doubt left in which to stash the benefit.

In other case, the benefit of the doubt is simply redundant. If somebody leaves no reasonable doubt, there can be no reasonable benefit.

If we are operating a policy of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, then logically we must further state that, unless a rap artist specifically tells us that they are seeking with their lyrics to express their desire to kill and fuck hos, they are merely reporting, describing or otherwise dealing with difficult subject matter the best way they can. Interestingly, this is a test that is usually applied mainly to our darker brethren to start with - rarely is it suspected that Nick Cave actually does want to do and then kill Kylie Minogue. If this is the case, well and good, but we will have to apply this _consistently_.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

21:24 / 06.07.06

Interesting point Haus, although Eminem is a white man he was attacked because people thought he actually wanted to cut a womans head off.

I wonder if it a genre-ist (genrephobic?) idea that is applied to rap specifically, but not, as you said, to the work of Nick Cave.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:29 / 06.07.06

Well, Eminem's an interesting case, certainly. He's a white man who has surrendered the protections of white privilege, which is possibly even scarier. There's a half-formed thought here involving that tragic arse Marilyn Manson, who has done something similar by abrogating lines of gender and sexuality. Maybe compare him being blamed for Colombine with the surprising lack of heat Alice Cooper got for all wife murders after "Cold Ethel"...

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

21:29 / 06.07.06

A couple quick thoughts, because dinner's on the stove:

1. If we're talking about cultural exports over the last 100 years, I think the most significant contributions of "black culture" in the United States would be jazz, gospel and arguably rock n' roll music. Rap's just a phenomenon of the last 20 years, give or take.

2. The deplorable qualities of rap -- mysoginy and materialism -- are shared by a bunch of other types of music. '80s "hair metal" springs to mind. And yet I don't see anyone trotting out Poison or Slik Toxik whenever they need to say that white men with longish hair are doing a fine job of putting themselves down, culturally speaking. OTOH, country twang is often used as shorthand for "Cletus, the Slack-Jawed Yokel," so maybe white culture DOES have its own echoes of the same phenomenon.

3. Adding points one and two together: rap is so new, culturally, that I think it's still going through growing pains. Rock, metal, and vocal jazz all went through some nasty early phases. So even if rap has some negative elements now, I think (a) it's trending positive, and (b) it's still young, and it's hardly fair to say that it casts bad aspersions on all black people, and dangerous to assume that it will still do so in 10 years time.

Arrrgh something's burning gotta go

21:30 / 06.07.06

I think it may just be, Elijah. No-one ever bangs on about Slayer or Cannibal Corpse poorly representing white people, either.

I'm a bit bewildered by the topic title - any help?

21:32 / 06.07.06

He doesn't?

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:33 / 06.07.06

Sorry, Matt. I think there's some really interesting stuff in your post, but I just can't get past Slik Toxik. Really? There was a band called Slik Toxik? Cripes.

Regrettable Juvenilia

21:33 / 06.07.06

Re: Eminem.

Two things going on there: firstly, I think a genre can be seen in a way influenced by racist assumptions even when individual artists in that genre are white; but secondly, Eminem also got a lot more "ah no he is a poet really DO YOU SEE?" press and pieces written about him a lot more quickly and a lot more prominent a level than many of his peers - this was in substantial part due to his own abilities, but only a fool would think the colour of his skin wasn't also involved (it was also involved in some of the negative reactions to him - whole threads could be written about dude).

Regrettable Juvenilia

21:37 / 06.07.06

See, this is a Music thread. I'd suggest a retitling* and a move.

*No idea what the original title is about - maybe Kay is high right now?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:44 / 06.07.06

I thought it was a reference to the exalted status of hir interlocutors.

Just take a look at me
Olympian in ivory
Despair at will at what you see
I'm oh so terrible
Just take a look at me
Whilst I revel in your jealousy
Despair at will at what you see
I'm still Olympian
Within my ivory...

21:44 / 06.07.06

Well, there's the phrase 'It's easier for my whiteness' in the abstract, so it could refer to white privilege? Either that or an 'inner circle' of posters THE HORRORS OF IT?

I would like it clarified, personally.

21:48 / 06.07.06

sorry, that was meant to come after the comment about Nick Cave wanting to kill Kylie Minogue....

there's also the argument some have made that the FBI and other groups have intentionally exacerbated the conflict between rappers to keep the (potential) movement divided, a la COINTELPRO. some info here

Kiltartan Cross

22:23 / 06.07.06

The High Society? "Kick out the Jams"
Easier for my whiteness? "Paranoid and Sunburnt"

*

23:07 / 06.07.06

It's also interesting in that white record company execs, white marketing gurus, white consumers of rap, and white people who let scary lyrics influence their perceptions of Black people, are in no way to be held accountable for perpetuating or holding onto racist stereotypes.

If, in fact, some Black people do take on racist stereotypes— perhaps for the sake of detournement, perhaps to go ahead and exploit the white people who find comfort in seeing those stereotypes perpetuated— that's for Black people to discuss and respond to. I can only be responsible for my own racism, and if I cross the street because I see a young Black man dressed all gangsta coming my way, it's up to me to be critical of why I did that and what led me to feel endangered, if in fact I did. Then I've got to dismantle the racist attitudes I hold and not pass them on to young people. I've got to examine and critique the cultural institutions which perpetuate racial inequality. I've got to speak out when I see something perpetuating racism, even if racism wasn't intended. I need to listen to and support people of color who point out racism to which I am blind due to my privilege. That's part of seeing injustice and recognizing the ways in which I benefit from it and contribute to it.

Racism will only be ended when white people stand up, act like grown adults, and take responsibility for fucking ending it, instead of whining about the big bad scary people of color and their big bad scary rap music, or placing the blame on "illegals" for not knowing how to speak English, or asserting that in fact brown-skinned people should know better than to walk around in broad daylight when there's a War on Terror going on. Point: Kay, your assertions are part of a larger social pattern of white people desperately wanting to deny any responsibility for racial injustice. Racial injustice exists, and white people have a responsibility to address it, not in spite of the fact that we aren't being hurt by it, but because of that fact. It's not some kind of extra super nice thing we can do for the poor brown-skinned people to try not to be racist every now and then; it's accepting a minimum level of responsibility.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:17 / 06.07.06

That's a good post, id, and I have only one question...

why capitalise "Black" and not "white"? Personally, I wouldn't capitalise either, but I'm interested.

23:20 / 06.07.06

The High Society? "Kick out the Jams"
Easier for my whiteness? "Paranoid and Sunburnt"

Right, so they're from songs - but what was the point you were making in using them, I'm asking?

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

23:34 / 06.07.06

if I cross the street because I see a young Black man dressed all gangsta coming my way, it's up to me to be critical of why I did that and what led me to feel endangered, if in fact I did. Then I've got to dismantle the racist attitudes I hold and not pass them on to young people.

I read that and thought "right on," and then when I was going to do the dishes I thought "hang on, I'd also cross the street if I saw a shaven-headed tattooed white guy with Slayer on a boombox..." and then I'm right back into "you do it to yourself, culturally" trap.

I know you're making a wider point, but the flaw in the argument is that reactions aren't just racial, they're cultural. I'm as likely to cross the street to avoid a white scary-lookin' dude as I am to avoid a black scary-lookin' dude. So then I'm back to square one, because both dudes are making choices in how to present themselves to the world that result in them being scary, as opposed to me being scared of their race per se.

*

00:46 / 07.07.06

Because it's usage I've seen before consistently among antiracist people and communities, and I'm comfortable with it at the moment. I don't feel the need to affirm my whiteness as something I have pride in, but I respect people who affirm their pride in their Blackness, and I want to acknowledge that. Maybe this method isn't effective, but I have access to it.

As far as using the word Black— I asked a friend of mine something about African American social concerns, some time ago, and he looked at me as if I had two heads. "Honey, I'm a Black Jamaican; I can't speak for African Americans." So in some cases, Black is more accurate. And "people of relatively recent African descent" is really long, and I'm lazy.

*

00:55 / 07.07.06

I know you're making a wider point, but the flaw in the argument is that reactions aren't just racial, they're cultural. I'm as likely to cross the street to avoid a white scary-lookin' dude as I am to avoid a black scary-lookin' dude.

I said the reaction is worth interrogating, not that it was immediately wrong, so I don't see this as a flaw in the argument. But to interrogate it a little further— I said a young Black man dressed "gangsta". Would you cross the street to avoid a young white man dressed "gangsta"? What other signals might you respond to, other than skin color and dress, which might tell you if a person is a danger to you? How did certain kinds of clothing acquire the image of being dangerous? Goth music is full of violent imagery; do you cross the street to avoid goths? Do you know people who do and think less of them? These are the kinds of questions I ask myself.

Yes, this is not just racial, it's cultural, but our constructions of race are cultural. They play into one another in interesting ways.

Kiltartan Cross

08:43 / 07.07.06

As far as using the word Black— I asked a friend of mine something about African American social concerns, some time ago, and he looked at me as if I had two heads. "Honey, I'm a Black Jamaican; I can't speak for African Americans."

I used to work in a very mixed-race environment (in England), and it (black) certainly wasn't viewed as an offensive term. Two peoples divided by a common language, huh?

(edit)

For the record, I started this thread in Conversation, rather than Music, because the original thread was in the Games & Gaming forum, and I hoped that a post in General was more likely to be seen by the readers of G&G.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

09:58 / 07.07.06

But to interrogate it a little further— I said a young Black man dressed "gangsta". Would you cross the street to avoid a young white man dressed "gangsta"?

Yes. But I was pulling a "stereotypical scary white guy" image to avoid any confusion about whether I was crossing the street because the guy was "dressed black."

I think we're on more or less the same page, really -- my point is just that reacting to somebody dressed "gansta" isn't a racial reaction necessarily. Every individual interaction has a thousand different gradients of threat -- build, behaviour, body language, number of people, "crazy eyes," past personal experience, cultural baggage, general vibe, race, my mood that day, the neighborhood I'm in, and what I've had for lunch.

I can't argue that race doesn't factor in, but I don't think it's a major factor. Somebody that's broadcasting "gansta" or "skinhead" or "Goth" or "Bavarian ukelele player" at full force may just be somebody I don't feel like dealing with at the moment without race entering into it at all.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:14 / 07.07.06

You don't think it's a major factor? Seriously? I think for a lot of white people it takes a lot less dressing up for non-white people to appear "scary" - although I think class-based visual cues (or ones that are read as involving class) often trump this, but then reading race is just a subset of reading class anyway if you want to get theoretical...

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:18 / 07.07.06

Well, it's certainly where goths are an interesting example. Their music is full of aggressive imagery, and there's prior art of goths committing acts of violence - Klebold and Harris spring immediately to mind. But is a goth on the street scary?

10:23 / 07.07.06

Sometimes and to some people, yes, definitely. A gang of goths can get people quite surprisingly scared - crossing the street and looking to be on the edge of a panic (not sure how to describe this well, but people can communicate fear, and an imminent fight or flight response through body language without actually doing very much) are all things I've seen in response to goths.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:25 / 07.07.06

Really? Wow. I had no idea.

10:33 / 07.07.06

Yeah, if you know any goths it seems so implausible.

My rather imprecise take on it is that Flyboy is about right; it would probably take a lot more goths than young black men to spook someone, and that the more the goths gave out class based cues (looked more punk, essentially) the scarier they would seem.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:44 / 07.07.06

I think there's a whole thing about pseudo-homophobic panic as well - the more queer/kinky goths look, the more likely they are to produced a reaction - which of course might be aggressive instead of avoidant, as with reactions based on "race" (scare quotes there for a reason).

Kiltartan Cross

10:59 / 07.07.06

Right, so they're from songs - but what was the point you were making in using them, I'm asking?

Purely as an ironic nod, to anyone who recognised them, that I am rather more versed in the interplay of black and white music than Haus keeps suggesting. I'm slightly surprised no-one recognised the Jesse Crawford intro to the MC5 gig; once heard, never forgotten. It's one of the best records of all time.

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