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You seem to be so invested in this particular opinion you hold that you can't listen to people without getting angry. You can't defend your opinion without getting angry.
Well, if I gave that impression, it was unintentionally. I'm not angry over this. Mostly, I'm midly annoyed to the fact that my opinion on the issue seem to be only considered if I read the article. If you remember well, I only made a question regarding the fragment Flyboy copied and pasted in hir post. Reading the whole article would not have changed the question. Answered it, maybe.
Haus is not the only one who sees the racism in your argument here
Then Haus is not the only one who is misinterpreting me. My problem is not with nay race but with 1) the rationale that the environment - including moral values imposed from above and outside - is an excuse to one bad behaviour, when I find that it's not: althought it's an explanation to one's behaviour, not an excuse. One is suposed to acknowledge such influences and refuse them, I believe; and 2) gangsta rap glorification of consumerism. I'm not saying nothing new here. The article itself defends the same point (alhtough it refers to "white burgoise patriachy", and I prefet to go more of an abstract route and call it "the market" or "economics" or, to be a bit of a conspiracionist, "the System"), but that's not what I'm disputing. I totally agree with that view, which seems to be the main point of the article. I'm disputing the "excusability" And, since my "disaproval", as it is, of gangsta rap,and specifically gangsta rap (which, as the article itself implies, can be sung by whit burgoise apropriators as well), I see no reason as to why my criticism would be considered racism. The race of the gansgta rapper is not the point, it's the philosophy of the music ze sings, which can have a "bad influence" in the audience, be it of any ginven race, gender, etc.
I know in my heart my point was not a racist one, although I cannot objectively proove it to you. There's a mean side to my opinion, I admit, but it's more related to a sense of mysanthropy in general than to racism. To excuse onself from responsibility from one's actions is a common character flaw in humankind which kinda irritates me. And friday was being a particularly stressful day and I was feeling very little patiente towards people of whichever race, gender,sex orientation, nationality, and political view. It happens. Every one feels like that sometimes.
it's the racism that Barbelith has a history of intolerance toward, not disagreements with Haus.
Yeah, but Haus does like to provoke people until they say something stupid, then bully them until they shut up or things escalate. It's an unpolite, antagonistic attitude that prevents good, constructive dialogue and makes everybody defensive.
(If everyone who had ever disagreed with Haus were banned, Barbelith would be empty, and Haus would probably have to ban himself last.)
You say that as a joke, I imagine.
The fact that you are getting so angry and reactionary about this matter to me makes your argument suspect, since no one attacked you directly— although admittedly, since you nailed yourself down to your opinion, people have been getting increasingly frustrated with you.
I'm not angry of this matter, I'm midly annoyed by it, at most. And it's not even the matter itself, since, aperantly, I agree with everybody in almost everything about it, except that one little detail: the excusing such behaviour due to social pressure and influence, which can be summarized in the line "hate the game, not the player", usually said after someone did something they know it's wrong and yet feel no regret. If you ask me, if people refused to play, there would be no game, but maybe I'm being naive.
What exactly has been attacked here? The cultural system of white supremacism, which feeds/feeds on stereotypes of Black people. If you feel attacked, it's worth considering whether maybe it's because you have a lot invested in this system.
There's where I seem to be misunderstood: I'm not defending that system at all. That system is wrong, and I know it (duh). It's the attitude of excusing an individual's behaviour due to the collective society ze is inserted, a minor detail that nor the author of the article nor anyone here seem to consider right, right? I agree with everybody here, I'm just disagreeing with a secundary argmentation used in the attack of such system.
James Bond movies. FULL of violence and misogyny. (And racism, but we'll leave that aside for a moment.) Are James Bond movies to blame for the rampant spread of violence and misogyny in white culture? How about the proliferation of white-on-white crime? White men often identify themselves with James Bond, and he kills people, which to me is unacceptable behavior.
I totally agree with you, James Bond is a very bad role model. I wouldn't say it's to blame for the rampant spread of violence and misogyny in white culture, but it certainly is a reflection of it (as gangsta rap is also not the cause, but a consequence of to blame for the rampant spread of violence and misogyny in, say, "black" culture). Every damn James Bond movie I keep hoping for him to have his ass kicked by the bad guy of some foreign nationality. It only happens once, usualy, in the middle or begining of the movie, but it's always my favourite moment.
If you see a white guy dressed in a James Bond tux, do you worry that he might consider himself to have a "license to kill"?
Well, no, of course, but nor do I fear black men using golden chains, in pimp-up rides will do a drive-by shooting at any moment. My issue is not with the people who sing gansgta rap, it's with the consumeristic message in gangsta rap.
What's the unacceptable behavior you refer to, anyway? Is it anything which can be realistically traced to rap music in terms of actual evidence and logical reasoning?
It's only the message the music is passing. I don't like whem music defend nazism, anti-semitism and other forms of violence against other groups (as some metal bands do), nor misogyny and consumerism and banalization of "in-group" violence (as gangsta rap sometimes do). But what prompted my first post was, specifically,the excuse for such behaviour as in "they [the musicians, mind you, not black people] are a product of their environment". Of course they are. Everybody is. But that's no excuse for me, it's all I'm saying.
Oh? So, you read the article?
Ah, hang on. No, you didn't. You decided that you didn't need to. After all, you must know what it said better than any black woman - even the black woman who wrote it.
Actually, now I did. And I have to confess, I didn't find it all that interesting, nor did it add anything new to my understanding of the issue. But my point was never the article, alhtough, back-reading, it does sound like it is (and for that misstep, I do apologise). My point is just that: gangsta rap message is not a good one; and that gansgta rappers are still responsible for what they advocate, regardless of the fact they may believe in it due to social and economics conditions they are exposed to and can't control. Is that so wrong?
And Gorilazz is one of the few new things I can listen that were made in the last 12 years (since Kobain got "deaded")
Now, Kurt Cobain is a bad example for kids anyway, since he makes irresponsible firearms behaviour sound "cool",
And I agree with you, Kobain was bad example for kids (what example can be worse than comitting suicide?). I indeed wasa fan at sometime, but hey, I was a teenager then, I was still learning about the world and all. But, one thing Kobain did right is, he never truly accepted the consumeristic cult of celebrities (as bad as gansgta rap, since it advocates one must be "above others" to be "loved": celebrities by fame, gangsta rappers by sheer money and violence). I stopped listening to new music after his death because "the industry" took over completely the rock'n'roll scene since then (IMHO). Ang Gorillaz is cool because it is a discrete criticism to this consumeristic celebrity cult of nowadays. And the music is cool, with lots of hip-hop, rock'n'roll, and eletronic music influence.
btw, kudoz for digging the Barbelith so deep to find something I said in a different context to use as an argument point. That shows commitment.
And the things Pink Floid says in its musics are sai in character, as an ironic form of protest and warning. And you know it. You're just using it because you misintrepet me as saying context does not matter. I thing context do matter, and a lot, otherwise this debate would be mute. I just think context is not everything. Intention does count. And I don't personally like gansgta rap intention (i.e. to say it's all right to do whatever it takes to be rich, including killing people from your own community, so you can spend the money on "hos"). it's just that.
Dead Megatron really is one of the most wilfully ignorant people ever to post on this board, isn't he?
You exagerate out of irritation, Flyboy. Although I indeed don't believe that the importance and correctness of one's opinion on any given subject is directly proportional to the ammount of reading one has on the subject (it helps, of course), I do read most of what is linked here. I just dind't want to do this once because the article seemed boring, redundant, outdated (1994?), after a first glance, and I didn't had the time nor the energy to read it then. And, after I did, i still think the article didn't say anything I didn't agree with already, except, of course, that one point I already mention ad nauseum. A point, I might add, you highlighted and removed fro context yourself, when you posted it separatedly from the article.
and also suggests that the man in question has got all his opinions on crime and society from reading The Dark Knight Returns...)
What part of "I work with the police as a reporter and got exposed to 'crime and society' everyday" did you not get? Well, nevermind. Anyway, here's a piece of advice from me to you: never underestimate the ammount of shit in anyone's life. Ever. As a rule.
Statistically, I would consider this amazing.
Personal attacks? Ok then. But, think about this: when you are the one deciding what's right and whats wrong, it's not amazing that, statistically, people who do not think like you exactly tend to be more wrong than right. I'm not saying you decide what's right and what's wrong. But think about it.
I followed the discussion here, mostly skimming DM's posts (no offense, buddy!).
Can't really blame you there. I should've know better than to express any disenting voice in this thread.
That's about right, yes. Essentially, if we look at what Dead Megatron did above - which is a pretty common tactic for members of the censorious right wing - we see that he has quoted some lyrics by Snoop Dogg, on the grounds that these lyrics, wihout context, are proof positive that rap (which he is using here in opposition to "hip hop" - Flyboy talks about this also) is violent, misogynistic etc.
However, we do indeed find that if you apply the same rules - total denial of any possible interpretation of the lyrics except that they are precisely mirroring the thought processes and life choices of the singer - to the music of bands of whom Dead Megatron expresses admiration, we find that by those rules they are espousng violence, hate, misogyny, gun crime, et alia. However, DM would never have thought of doing this, because he is exceptionally credulous, and has only ever been told that one should do that with rap rather than with prog rock or grunge.
You underestimate me as well, Haus. I mentioned gansgta rap because the subject of this thread was gangsta rap, but hey, there's a lot of criticism to be made (and praises as well) to every kind of music. Rock'n'roll also show lots of misogyny as well, just as an example.
But you see, I'm not sure gangsta rappers are being ironic when they thing about violence, gatting money and "hos", and all that, unlike prog rock examples you gave, are they? Of course, the music lyrics may hav plenty of hidden meanings, but is this the case of gangsta rap (and not rap or hip-hop or "black music" in general, just the gangsta)? because, if it's not, that's not good, IMHO.
That's the first thread. The second thread is a rather nasty set of assumptions about how the people who listen to rap (broadly, black people) are so very easily swayed that they will uncritically go out and repeat whatever they have heard, whereas people who listen to Nirvana (broadly, white people) will not then abduct women or kill people, people who listen to Pink Floyd will not go out beating up black people and people who listen to the Rolling Stones will not attempt to subjugate women, because they are all clever.
I never said that, you assume I was saying that because the subject of this thread is gangsta rap. But any kind of person, and any kinda of music can be bad to some people. It's not the affect the message it has on the audience of gangsta rap i criticise, it's the message itself. Of course people are ot turn "evil" from hearing gangsta rap, that's absurd. And I never said or implied that. It's the consumeristic message I don't like, sorry. And making excuses for bad behaviour (of any kind, in any form, by and to any people) is not nice too. That's all, and that's it.
And speaking of PC, was it only six months ago that we were enjoining Dead Megatron to read the barest and most basic source materials before shooting his mouth off about a term that he is still using from a position of ignorance? Why, so it is. Lazy feline, this might help you to understand why, after going through this pretty much every single time he opens his yap, we're all a bit tired of it.
Six months is a long time in Barbelith years, dude. And also, you really get obsessed over this stuff, don't you? I must say, you really commit yourself to prove your point no matter what. But what I particularly like is the way you speak for "we all". I gotta tell, Haus, there's a lot people tired of your yapping too. Every time we get into one of this arguments, I get at least one PM of someone commenting on how out of line you are. It's not me against every body. It's a bunch of small cliques against every other clique...
But, hey,if people keep asking me things, i'll keep answering them. But, honestly, I don't think I have much more to contribute to this thread. I hade one comment to make about one specific, and not central to the issue, line of reasoning. In every other way, the truth is I agree with you. Sorry, but I do. |
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