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The High Society or, On Music and Race

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
11:02 / 07.07.06
But not versed enough to mention any actual records when making generalisations about the terrible effects of rap music, or to have a discussion about music in the Music forum, lest you get thoroughly PWND up and down all over the place.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:05 / 07.07.06
Purely as an ironic nod, to anyone who recognised them, that I am rather more versed in the interplay of black and white music than Haus keeps suggesting

I suggested that you felt entitled to make proclamations about rap music despite, I guessed, not listening to it much or having anything more than the sketchiest of understandings of its history. Your subsequent citing of the "East-West" rivalry confirmed that my supposition was correct. I was taking issue with your self-appointed status as gatekeeper over what music made by black people says and does, despite limited knowledge. Actually, I don't think I ever even mentioned the interplay of black and white music. Perhaps you could point out where I kept saying that? Cheers.
 
 
illmatic
11:09 / 07.07.06
Well, I quite like the MC5 record, and it’s place in the rock canon is undisputed, but I don’t think it’s of much concern or relevance here – I think people are more interested in your views on contemporary Hip Hop and how you formed the opinions which led to your comments in Games & Gameplay started the thread – they seem to me pretty much impressions formed without hearing a lot of it, tbh.

More in a bit - going to try and address the issue of why I feel happy listening to music which is sometimes (though less frequently than most critics assume) uses violent imagery.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:12 / 07.07.06
Well, I like it because Iggy Pop is great!
 
 
illmatic
11:17 / 07.07.06
More succinctly: what relevance has a 40 year old rock record got to a thread about Hip Hop? It adds to the perception that you don't ever listen to the music that you're complaining about.

Will hold off on the other stuff till later.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
11:24 / 07.07.06
Haus, Flyboy: I've stated my position at the start of this thread. You have consistently ignored that statement, and persisted in repeating your own interpretations of what you believe my original post was about.

I would be upset, but I note with some interest that this behaviour is quite usual for the pair of you on this forum. By all means, Haus, keep building up your sandcastles; by all means, Flyboy, keep sticking your flag on the top. They aren't mine, as everyone else has hopefully concluded by now, and I have no interest in them.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:27 / 07.07.06
It'd be great to hear what everybody else has concluded by now, I agree.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:33 / 07.07.06
What I asked, Kay, was:

Actually, I don't think I ever even mentioned the interplay of black and white music. Perhaps you could point out where I kept saying that? Cheers.

If you are going to lie, at least try to do so in a slightly more imaginative fashion - that is, not in a way that can be disproved by reference to a single thread. Often this can be achieved by simply saying that your interlocutor does something "repeatedly", and then refusing to give specific examples. Oh, hang on - you did that too.

I would be upset, but I note with some interest that this behaviour is quite usual for the pair of you on this forum.

Much better.

Now, the fact that you realised that you were going to get completely PWNED, as my alternate suit puts it, made you revise your claim. If you want to pretend that actually you just had some sort of minor stroke that meant that the first time you tried to say this it just all came out a bit wrong, go for it. I have no problem with a second chance. However, as Illmatic points out, you are still not actually referencing any modern music produced by black people in support of your claims about modern music produced by black people.

Flouncing off claiming that you are doing so because you are being oppressed and not listened to, rather than because you are being listened to, is the next step in the trail down to being a zero-value contributor. Whether you decide to take it is entirely your choice.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:58 / 07.07.06
I've stated my position at the start of this thread. You have consistently ignored that statement, and persisted in repeating your own interpretations of what you believe my original post was about. - Kay

OK, I'm willing to listen to your points and your argument, but I think you should realise that you have some way to go before it starts to become convincing. I'd like to hear you justify the claims that "some black artists produce music which portrays black people in a negative light", most particularly paying attention to your point that other (sony's) racism is a "drop in the ocean" in comparison.

I certainly recognise the stereotype, Kay, but I am sadly ignorant of hip hop, say. So I need more from you, since I'm not happy with appeals to the *obvious* correctness of your points.

Some specific artists and songs illustrating your point, with an explanation by you would do well here (I realise this is some effort I am asking you to make, but then your point is a rather bold one, which needs *some* justification...I'm not resisting your points as a way to make this hard or uncomfortable for you). So far, you've referenced the MC5 and Skunk Anansie, but the relevance to what you are saying entirely escapes me. (Skunk Anansie had tracks about race, including the one you mention, but not in the way you are describing.)
 
 
illmatic
12:01 / 07.07.06
Okay, Kay I’ll bite:

1) Sony were obviously, blatantly wrong.
2) It's a drop in the ocean compared to the corpus of music and imagery which portrays black* people in a negative light.
3) Much of this music is, ironically enough, produced by black artists.


Okay, Kay - what I find discomforting about your statements here is:

a) that your willing to jump analogies so quickly – to move between two completely different sorts of media. Even if your points about hip hop were completely correct that still struck me as a very odd thing to do, and this links to
b) Your willingness to transfer the blame for racism back to black artists. I say this is part of the reason for a).. If every time, racism is mentioned you say “but really, it’s their fault”* – which is what you’re saying, that in itself is a racist act. See Id’s posts above on awareness of our complicity in racism etc.
c) I think a lot of the argument you’ve employed is a lot more about defending yourself than impartially describing. For instance you didn’t include 2) above in your original statement, you pretty much went straight into blaming black artists.

I don’t know where this argument is going but I think people would simply like you to acknowledge that your original post and some parts of the argument were/are unwisely employed and a bit fucked up.

* we could add “if only they started making some responsible music that didn’t make white people feel uncomfortable, music about how terribly oppressed they are” but that leads us into the whole misery of conscious Hip Hop which is slightly off-topic.
 
 
illmatic
12:10 / 07.07.06
BTW having just read Lurid’s post – I don’t think simply citing some "negative" Hip Hop lyrics would make all the points about your argument hunky dory. You could find plenty of examples of violence and sexism within Hip Hop in 5 minutes on Google. However, focusing on these misses the point that:

a) they are a product of the wider culture, and if you really want to critique these things you’ve got to get to the root of them. TBH, I’d love to hear less critique of Hip Hop and violence and more about economic inequality and wealth divisions along racial lines but these take us into areas where it’s a lot less easy to “shoot the messenger”.

b) It would take the focus away from the way in which you’ve employed your arguments here.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:17 / 07.07.06
Illmatic is right, of course; quoting some dodgy lyrics isn't going to be enough. Giving a sense that there is a wide movement out there which can be criticised in the way you are doing - perpetuating negative stereotypes in a way that is much more harmful than racism - would be useful. However, starting with some lyrics, some artists and some commentary of these and how they exemplify what you are talking about would be a start.
 
 
alas
13:42 / 07.07.06
I'm also interested in this bit, Kay, which I'd really like to see you address:

Race, sex, and sexuality carry very little weight with me. I had assumed that this was recognised as a sine qua non here.

Maybe we can find some common ground. Is it fair to say that you, and I, both believe that one's perceived or claimed race, gender, mode of self-presentation, etc., should carry no weight in terms of whether one is recognized as a complex, potentially vulnerable, human being who deserves to be treated with dignity?

But, I sense, where we differ, is that, while many intelligent people, including, it seems, you (?), seem to want to drive us away from categories as inherently limiting to people, I am not sure this is the answer. I think I get this desire to avoid giving social categories any "weight"; I think it is understandable--race categories in particular have a very ugly history. I don't think any of us want to mindlessly replicate that history.

But there is another way of seeing this issue, which I think Judith Halberstam begins to explain pretty well (in this interview about her book Female Masculinities), although she's primarily thinking in relation to human sexuality (and I try to be fairly careful about not conflating these differing aspects of personal/social identity too much):

For me, the term female masculinity also records what can only be called a "taxonomical impulse." My book argues for greater taxonomical complexity in our queer histories. Unlike a theorist like Butler who sees categories as perpetually suspect, I embrace categorization as a way of creating places for acts, identities and modes of being which otherwise remain unnamable. I also think that the proliferation of categories offers an alternative to the mundane humanist claim that categories inhibit the unique self and creates boxes for an otherwise indomitable spirit. People who don't think they inhabit categories usually benefit from not naming their location.

As I see it, we're all in a position where, culturally, we haven't decided what to do with all this messy history of oppression and cruelty and denial of subjectivity based on class, race, gender, and etc. We are in a state of confusion.

Striving for "color blindness," as a response, doesn't seem to work, because it often just translates, first, into an ability not to see the on-going oppression and problems, and, second, for me, to allowing me to believe I'm perfectly race neutral in my approach to others and not to ask any hard questions of myself when I'm reacting negatively, for instance, to one of my black students. It lets me off the hook pretty easily, and, being human, I'm prone to wanting to let myself off the hook.

And, third, it typically leads to an unexamined expectation that there is some kind of "race neutral" behavior--which is usually, in fact, a behavior pattern that is more typical of the dominant so-called "white" culture--to which we can all simply be expected to conform or "cover" non-conforming behavior. ("Covering" is Kenji Yoshino's term for hiding stigmatized behavior--e.g., avoiding wearing ethnic clothing to work, or behaving in ways that are marked as "gay").

There are differences in British vs. American cultures here, and I realize I may be misinterpreting your claim, so I'd like to hear more from you.
 
 
Ex
13:56 / 07.07.06
Adding to what Illmatic and Lurid mentioned - bell hooks talks about how it suits white American society to have black music artists producing songs with (particularly) sexist lyrics. She says:

"It is useful to think of misogyny as a field that must be labored in and maintained ... And what better group to labor on this "plantation" than young black men."

Which is a really gutsy metaphor. Anyway, I thought the suggestion that the cultural set-up is complex and involves more than the motivations of black music artists could do with repeating.
 
 
grant
14:02 / 07.07.06
I wish I could say something more thoughtful than this but just *ding ding* to alas' observation, second-hand or not, on the problems with "color-blindness" and living without categories.

(Scare quotes necessary. Sorry.)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:03 / 07.07.06
I would urge absolutely everyone, especially Kay, to read that entire article. I think the crucial point, which might be missed from that extract alone, is this:

To see gangsta rap as a reflection of dominant values in our culture rather than as an aberrant "pathological" standpoint does not mean that a rigorous feminist critique of the sexist and misogyny expressed in this music is not needed. Without a doubt black males, young and old, must be held politically accountable for their sexism. Yet this critique must always be contextualized or we risk making it appear that the behaviors this thinking supports and condones,--rape, male violence against women, etc.-- is a black male thing. And this is what is happening. Young black males are forced to take the "heat" for encouraging, via their music, the hatred of and violence against women that is a central core of patriarchy.

...

To take "gangsta rap" to task for its sexism and misogyny while critically accepting and perpetuating those expressions of that ideology which reflect bourgeois standards (no rawness, no vulgarity) is not to call for a transformation of the culture of patriarchy.

...

Mainstream white culture is not concerned about black male sexism and misogyny, particularly when it is unleashed against black women and children. It is concerned when young white consumers utilize black popular culture to disrupt bourgeois values. Whether it be the young white boy who expresses his rage at his mother by aping black male vernacular speech (a true story) or the masses of young white males (and middle class men of color) seeking to throw off the constraints of bourgeois bondage who actively assert in their domestic households via acts of aggression their rejection of the call to be "civilized. " These are the audiences who feel such a desperate need for gangsta rap. It is much easier to attack gangsta rap than to confront the culture that produces that need.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:17 / 07.07.06
So, what tha article is saying is, if gangsta rap is misogynistic, it's the white burgoise's fault?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:24 / 07.07.06
Did you read the whole article, DM?
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:33 / 07.07.06
Nope, only that part you copied and pasted.

I just wonder if we're going to look for the ultimate cause for every fucked-up human behavior before adressing the behavior itself. Because it seems a bit utopic to me, is all.

it's like:

"Gansta rap is mysoginistic"

"So, what do we do? Try and make gansgta rap and gangsta rappers less mysoginistic?"

"Oh, no! Gangsta rap is mysoginistic because young Afrincan American have been victims their whole life and it would be thus unfair to blame them for their behavior. We should instead punish white men for creating the situation"

"And what about the gangsta rap? What do we do?

"Nothing, of course. Once the whole society is completely fixe din all its aspects, gangsta rap wil fix itself, and we don't have to feel like disaproving 'black culture' in the mean-time"

"Wow, how very PC of yours"

Does that work? In practical terms, I mean?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:37 / 07.07.06
Read the whole article, DM. Perhaps then you'll stop grossly misrepresenting anyone's* position as being that we should not "Try and make gansgta rap and gangsta rappers less mysoginistic", that we should do "nothing" about it, and that "Once the whole society is completely fixe din all its aspects, gangsta rap wil fix itself, and we don".

*I assume it's bell hooks you're misrepresenting, but since nobody has said the things you're saying, who knows, eh?
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:40 / 07.07.06
Perhaps then you'll stop grossly misrepresenting anyone's* position

yeah, ok. And that's something you don't do, right? If you pay attention to my post, you'll notice I'm asking, not stating, if that's the point after all.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:43 / 07.07.06
Um, no you're not, DM.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:47 / 07.07.06
Seriously, DM, you're wasting time that you might reasonably spend reading the article, as was recommended in the first place.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:50 / 07.07.06
Or listening to the Sex Pistols, Bikini Kill or Clipse.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
14:57 / 07.07.06
Having read the whole article, she is blaming mysoginy in gangsta rap on the white bourgeousie, though.

Last sentence:
Yet, our feminist critiques of black male sexism fail as meaningful political intervention if they seek to demonize black males, and do not recognize that our revolutionary work is to transform white supremacist capitalist patriarchy in the multiple areas of our lives where it is made manifest, whether in gangsta rap, the black church, or the Clinton administration.

...pretty much says that wherever a problem rears its head, it can be traced back to "white supremacist capitalist patriarchy."

I'm not saying that she's wrong -- the article, if I can attempt to summarize, says that "gangsta" rap is largely the product of distilled and distorted white cultural fuckeupedness absorbed by black youth, and she makes a strong case -- but yes, she's blaming it on the white bourgeoisie.

Am I wrong in thinking that this is maybe a problem that needs to be addressed on multiple levels? She excoriates Time for a whole paragraph for not taking Snoop Dogg to task for the misogynistic cover of "Doggystyle," but not once does she even consider that Snoop Dogg himself might deserve a good smack in the head for that one.

I don't think anyone deserves a free pass here. This whole thing is starting to look like Bill Cosby Pound Cake Redux, to be honest.
 
 
Ex
14:59 / 07.07.06
And dude, bell hooks is a black American woman from a working class background. She's not contructing these arguments to strive to be 'PC' - she's trying to make sense of the conditions of her life.

My motivations in quoting her are undoubtedly more mixed.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:00 / 07.07.06
not once does she even consider that Snoop Dogg himself might deserve a good smack in the head for that one

Matt, when you read the whole article, did you just ignore this bit:

To see gangsta rap as a reflection of dominant values in our culture rather than as an aberrant "pathological" standpoint does not mean that a rigorous feminist critique of the sexist and misogyny expressed in this music is not needed. Without a doubt black males, young and old, must be held politically accountable for their sexism.

Or this?

Feminist critiques of the sexism and misogyny in gangsta rap, and in all aspects of popular culture, must continue to be bold and fierce. Black females must not be duped into supporting shit that hurts us under the guise of standing beside our men. If black men are betraying us through acts of male violence, we save ourselves and the race by resisting.
 
 
Ex
15:02 / 07.07.06
That last to Dead Megatron. But on smacking Snoop Dogg - possibly hooks is reacting to the phenomenal smacking that went on when mainstream white feminism decided that gangsta rap was a useful embodiment of sexism. It's an adjusting of the smack. She interviews another rapper and that's an interesting blend of challenge and alliance - I'll try to dig it out...
 
 
Dead Megatron
15:03 / 07.07.06
Having read the whole article, she is blaming mysoginy in gangsta rap on the white bourgeousie, though

Oh, so I was right,after all? Well, I wish I could say that was a surprise.

Poor rappers, forced to be sexist, materialistic, violencemongers by the eeeevil white men...
 
 
Dead Megatron
15:05 / 07.07.06
And dude, bell hooks is a black American woman from a working class background. She's not contructing these arguments to strive to be 'PC' - she's trying to make sense of the conditions of her life.

Seh certainly is. ANd the conclusion she arrives at is, of course, "It's not our fault. At all". I don't say she's not right about it, but - and that's my question - how does that help in solving the problem?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:06 / 07.07.06
Read the article yet, DM?
 
 
Dead Megatron
15:07 / 07.07.06
Nope
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:08 / 07.07.06
Right. Could you then refrain from offering an opinion of it?
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:13 / 07.07.06
I didn't ignore, Flyboy, but those comments are buried in an overwhelming context. Your latter quote is directly followed by my quoted last sentence.

My overall impression is "yes, they broke the cookie jar, but it's really the fault of the person who put the cookies in the jar, and the person who put the jar so reachably on the counter, and the jar manufacturer for its lax manufacturing standards." The cookie-jar-breaker gets a passing mention, but the blame is swiftly shifted.*

I do agree that most of the crap that gets spewed sources from the dominant culture. Again, I'm reminded of the Bill Cosby "Pound Cake Speech" of two years ago and the debate that raged afterwards. I wonder if that was ever a going concern here on the 'lith.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:16 / 07.07.06
Re-reading that, I can see that I'm starting to react rather than analyze. I think I need to do more reading and thinking about all this. Bowing out for now.
 
  

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