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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Superman Returns - Post -release thread

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08:40 / 19.07.06

I see a few folk on boards are saying the game's up and Superman has already won, but really the only acceptable (as in, not making Superman a douche) resolution in a future film would be for Marsden's character to bite it.

You're absolutely right, and those people you've read online have spectacularly missed the point of the entire movie.

The most important dialogue in the film isn't all the riffing on Marlon Brando's material from the first Seventies film. It's two words that are repeated no fewer than three times throughout the film, oddly emphasised by Routh in a manner more akin to Reeve than the rest of his performance: "Goodbye Lois."

The Natural Way

09:07 / 19.07.06

Miss Tessmacher is the young woman, right? Because, if so, to answer yr point boboss - something Tricks failed spectacularly to do - yes, there's at least a couple of moments when she reveals she's got a big brain/it's a put on.

09:17 / 19.07.06

Mike got there first, Marriage.

Great fun at the time, but perhaps much less impressive the more it's dwelt upon.

I'm not sure anyone's actually said that, just that upon reflection it throws up a lot of questions, particularly on the subject of how it interacts with the audience and its source material.

12:09 / 19.07.06

Yeah, you're right, Boboss. In my hasty late-night post I was mixing other people's impressions with a dash of my own, and "much less impressive" is probably an exaggeration. I really enjoyed it in the cinema, but its impact has diminished somewhat (now that I'm far from the giant screen and loud sound system) and a lot of the details seem hazy now. Which doesn't make it a bad film, just harder to write about. Hmm, may return when opinions more fully formed.

12:37 / 19.07.06

I agree with Seth re: the "goodbye, Lois" stuff (and it was indeed the one point where it sounded exactly like they had just dubbed in Reeve's voice), but I don't think it's quite so tidy as that because of the lingering Superson issue.

As the movie was closing I wondered when they were going to break the news to Richard that Jason wasn't his son, and how he would react. Then the credits rolled and I thought, wait, Superman knows the kid is his and everyone's just going to let Richard keep thinking he's the father?

And when they finally do tell Richard, or he finds out, that's going to be an awfully painful scene, isn't it?

That's why I thought the "Superman flies around the world and smiles at the camera" bit didn't quite...fit here. In the earlier films, that bit kind of means "Superman wins! Yay!" but there's a lot less closure and a lot more ambiguity and uncertainty at the end of this movie, so the triumphant ending didn't seem...quite so triumphant.

Nobody didn't love the plane-save, though.

12:48 / 19.07.06

And when they finally do tell Richard, or he finds out, that's going to be an awfully painful scene, isn't it?

Whilst I did get carried away by the moment, that thought was in the back of my mind too. Here we're well and truly into sequel set-up territory, which, again, is another interesting way in which the film refers or points to texts outwith itself. Strange territory this movie has negotiated for itself.

I reckon he has to die. Whyte, I mean. That is, unless they plan on making him a villain, which would seem pretty unlikely (but not entirely implausible).

12:57 / 19.07.06

Actually, for some reason I kept thinking that he was going to become Metallo, and then when the movie ended I was a bit embarassed for having thought so.

But it would be sUpEr cOoL!!! though. "You broke my heart, Lois, so I got it replaced with a Kryptonite one!"

Mr. Singer may phone my house at his earliest convenience.

13:45 / 19.07.06

>> "You broke my heart, Lois, so I got it replaced with a Kryptonite one!"<<

That's hilarious. And totally befitting a Silver Age Superman comic.

I read that Singer tried multiple times to get Jude Law in Returns as Zod, but Law refused every time, so the character was written out of the script.

I'd like to see Brainiac show up in the sequel. Just as long as the series doesn't degenerate into self-parody like in Superman III and IV. In other words, I just hope Dave Chappelle doesn't show up as a computer programmer in "Superman Returns Again" or something.

BTW, having watched the first two Superman films the other week, I don't recall any scenes in which Ms Tessmacher was revealed to be intelligent. About the only thing smart she did was free Superman from his kryptonite chains in Superman 1, and that was mostly because he promised her he'd save New Jersey (where her mother lived) before stopping the second missile.

16:15 / 19.07.06

The "is Miss Tessmacher super-intelligent" question was answered on the last page. She's not, it's the woman from Superman III you're thinking about.

16:33 / 19.07.06

Actually the Kryptonite heart thing isn't too barmy, I reckon. That's kind of the way Hollywood films - especially fairy stories like Superman - tend to work.

16:39 / 19.07.06

Brainiac needs some movie RESPECT, I feel. The major problem is, probably, his name which - I don't know if that's the original use of the word, like Bizarro? but is kind of ridic. Reading Red Son and Earth-2 again recently, and it seems fairly self-evident to me that Superman's top 'rogues' are: 1. Luthor 2. Brainiac 3. Bizarro, probably (yeah, Richard could get mutated tragically into some Bizarro-type, that'd be workable. I'd likely bust a gut crying.)

The Milton Fine James 'Spike' Marsters character in Smallville was apparently supposed to be Brainiac, but they never used the name ultimately.

So obsessed am I with this idea that, while I want a sequel, I only want it if it has Brainiac(!!!) and (I could live without it but really it'd be best) the Bottled City of Kandor.

miss wonderstarr

16:44 / 19.07.06

Do you know what I'd like. Supergirl. With Helen Slater as a cameo. If we can have Super-EmoKid, we can have a pastiche/tribute to the Salkinds' Supergirl movie.

And Streaky the Super-cat, optional.

Of course, the potential wonder of a World's Finest movie now goes without saying.

16:54 / 19.07.06

Definitely, on the latter. I saw some bullshit MTV awards show where I think it was Routh, Bosworth and Spacey, actually, presented some award for badassness or the like to Batman Begins, and Baleman went up to collect. Inside I squeed, enormously.

There was some rumour of the sort a couple of years ago, to that effect, actually.

16:56 / 19.07.06

M. Falconer: Well, I love the name Brainiac (must stop myself writing Brianiac) but you could justify it in a Hollywood movie.

You know, computer-alien lands on Earth, maybe even in a small town like in Superman II, so Singer can keep referencing the old movies. He tells someone he's a twelfth-level syntellect on an information-gathering mission blah blah blah jargon blah and the Earth monkey says, "What are you, some kinda brainiac?" Computer-alien assumes that's a title of respect and fear on this planet and keeps using it throughout the entire movie, oblivious to what it means.

Mr. Singer, I am still waiting patiently by my phone.

17:07 / 19.07.06

I think they did use the name in Smallville, but only once, and very briefly, in reference to Fyne's super-computer designation.

Brigade du jour

17:19 / 19.07.06

That's why I thought the "Superman flies around the world and smiles at the camera" bit didn't quite...fit here. In the earlier films, that bit kind of means "Superman wins! Yay!" but there's a lot less closure and a lot more ambiguity and uncertainty at the end of this movie, so the triumphant ending didn't seem...quite so triumphant.

At the risk of picking nits, I think it's worth pointing out that he didn't really smile at the camera. He just sort of ... looked. I'm glad actually - that smile in the older films was all Reeve's idea, I reckon. The dude had teeth like sunshine.

18:03 / 19.07.06

I want Superman to smile at me.

18:04 / 19.07.06

The whole movie felt like an extended first act, which would indicate Synger does plan to make a trilogy out of it, and that would be no surprise, would it?

I can totally see a sequel in which Superman fights Bizarro. First, just Bizarro #1, but in the final act, a whole army of degenerated zombie-looking clones of Superman. Bizarro #1 can even change sides at the 11th hour (being the "prototype", he'd would be the only one of the Bizarros with a shred of intelligence and free will) and sacrifice himself to save Lois or Supes or something. Brainiac would be a cool vilain too. He can start as a virus program that comes from the space and takes over computer on earth, creating a robotic skeletal body for himself. And, in the final act, he can reveal that the program was only part of him, an advanced scout, and then he shows up in the full might of his true form: a gigantic ship with tentacles that comes to collect all human knowledge, as well samples of their technology and some living specimens for his museum/zoo, and then destroy all the rest. Another possible villain, and one that I'm amazed nobody seemed to remember, could be MXYZPTLK, as an incorporeal alien from a higher dimension that got curious about Superman and Earth and decided to "make some experiments". He can even look like a 4 feet bald guy, but that's not necessary. Lex Luthor, though, has to be in every sequel, of course.

18:12 / 19.07.06

It seems as if they're planning to make a Bat-trilogy, so a super-trilogy would make sense. As for first actness, wurrl, yeeah, but it's worth pointing out the SR was, structurally speaking, reasonably self-contained and subscribed to fairly neat three-act structure.

18:34 / 19.07.06

It was, it was. But I got a sense it was also part of a larger three-act structure yet unrevealed. It takes a filmmaker in complete control of hir game to pull that of, but I tend to think of Synger - and his writing partners - as the man(men) to do it.

The lack of a big bad fight in the end, the unresolveldness of the Lois-Richard White-Jor-El's grandson's affair, and Luthor still being on the loose, that gives me that impression.

Plus, I have to say: one would think a civilization as advanced as the Kryptonian is supposed to be, would come up with a spaceship with a propper landing gear, and a Fortress with an actual security system, don't you think?

18:50 / 19.07.06

The big fight is the beating/recovery/excision of the tumescent kryptonite growth.

19:00 / 19.07.06

Plus, I have to say: one would think a civilization as advanced as the Kryptonian is supposed to be, would come up with a spaceship with a propper landing gear

More than anything that's why I loved the change in the spaceship's controlled landing in the Bruce Timm animated series over every portrayal of Kal-El's arrival in the comics... superior alien tech but somehow can't get their head around putting someone in the equivalent of an interstellar pinball.

A bit like strapping your kid into an SUV, sticking the thing in neutral, rolling it down a steep hill into town and wishing him the best of luck. The scene is more dramatic looking in a crash but ultimately pretty stupid when it comes to safeguarding precious cargo.

And in the animated series, it made for better story economy to have an intact ship that could be used later for space exploration.

19:20 / 19.07.06

I get you, DM. I just wanted to point out that a few obvious plot threads notwithstanding the film was complete in itself.

As for star shaped ships and crash landings, I can think of some good reasons why a writer might choose to go the impractical route.

19:52 / 19.07.06

Will you be sharing them, then? ;-)

20:01 / 19.07.06

Well for a start a star shaped ship symbolises the meeting of the heavens and earth. Neat, huh.

Secondly the ship and the manner of its landing were adopted as part of the homage, retread stuff, and out of respect for the original source material.

Sorry for the brevity. There is more, but I'm pressed for time at the mo'.

20:03 / 19.07.06

John Octave, re your "how to make Brainiac's name work in a Hollywood film" post...you are on fire today, my friend. That's not only a great idea, but a funny one to boot. A rare example of a recurring joke in a film that would be funny all the way through. And you're exactly right, Singer would have the ability to set it up by referencing the Kryptonians' path of destruction in small-town USA in Superman 2.

I'd have Brainiac take Supes' kid hostage, after some sort of DNA diagnostics scan revealed to him (Brainiac) that the kid has Superman's genetic makeup.

20:09 / 19.07.06

I get you, DM. I just wanted to point out that a few obvious plot threads notwithstanding the film was complete in itself.

No arguments here, dude. But the best trilogies are made of movies that are complete in themselves, but also fit in the larger picture. Which is what I believe Synger et all are aiming at here. Major movie craftmanship, I'd say, if I'm actually right.

I dunno. Maybe I thought the ending a bit of an anti-climax. Yes, the lifting of the kryptonite island was a self-sacrificing feat worth of Superman, but it was not like a fight against a Big Bad Guy. Nor it was as complete or as exciting as the original Donner movie nuclear missle chase and the resulting chaos in California. I left the theater with a feeling something was missing, something was still to come. It's more of a hopefull emotional thing than it is cold analysis of the film merits and shortcomings, I admit.

No one argues that the plane rescue was the high point of the movie, though.

20:16 / 19.07.06

I'd have Brainiac take Supes' kid hostage, after some sort of DNA diagnostics scan revealed to him (Brainiac) that the kid has Superman's genetic makeup

I second that. In fact, the super-kid could be the one to name the evil 12th-level A.I. from outer space "Brainiac". It would make perfect sense, in a Holywood kind of way.

And, we can even make Brainiac presence on Earth Superman's fault (to add to the drama): Brainy was scanning Krypton ruins for useful technology when he detected Supes ship, dedicing to follow it to what could be a new target he hoped to be a high-teck Kryptonian refugee colony, but turns out to be just Earth.

SO, where and when do we meet to start writing the script?

20:44 / 19.07.06

Thirdly, elements such as the rough, painful, irreversibility of the process (this is a crash, afterall), the definite outcome, the unnegotiable link with the world (that would be weakened or, indeed, invalidated by a ship that could simply take off again), are all there to cement Superman with Earth, and also work as a rather obvious birth analogy.

The starship also cracks open, a bit like an egg.

20:58 / 19.07.06

And the fact that, with the crash-landing, Supes can faint on his mother's arms, which makes a scene that resembles Michaellangelo's La Pietá statue, further playing the "Superman as Jesus" analogy:

For the bad security system at the Fortress of Solitute, though, no excuses?

21:11 / 19.07.06

None.

Henningjohnathan

22:07 / 19.07.06

Yeah... Where's the big f---ing key?

22:29 / 19.07.06

in case my earlier posts could be interpreted otherwise [don't even know if the replies were for them... hum, anyway], I'm not complaining the comic continuity was not respected.

but that it respected the Donners movies so much it wasn't allowed to breath on it own. it's mostly a very expensive remake, so worried about living up to them that there's even some lines directly lifted from those scripts, like the bit about not being afraid to travel by plane. I loved many many things about RETURNS [there was applause here as well], but Luthor is not among them.

read this week a sequel rumour about Zod... so, maybe there'll be a Bizarro in the 4th one, after Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle in the third.

02:43 / 20.07.06

How about a Bizarro Zod? A Bizarrod! Wouldn't that be a surprise twist? Maybe Lex found Zod's frozen body underneath the Fortress and revived it using the power of the cristals!!!

And, who knows?, we can never rule out Supergirl. Or Krypto, for that matter.

07:42 / 20.07.06

I'm surprised no one mentioned this. I'm almost sure my judgment is sober, and not through my fandom for Mozz, but All Star not only provided a more genuine feel for a genuine Superman that's way more contemporary (with no EletricBlue and no grit!) but also is playing better (on 4 issues only) on it's themes far better than SR. The treatment on woman's empowerment, and clark's risked emasculation are top notch new viewings on a subject that's still treated -- in comics and film -- like those anchormen from "The Anchorman: Ron Burgundy" treated women.

Ok, in SR not that much, Singer had a pretty sophisticated touch in DailyPlanetLois (except for "takeUrKidEverywhere") and Mr. Richie White 'triangle', but that meant a huge change on Lois & Clark/Sup relationship to an almost zero dynamics (to state Superman through his excellent manners). Even though this one seems to be admittedly (and boldly) a gentleman's "Goodbye Lois", it seems the character suffers a bit withouth it's America's Sweetheart.

And kudos for the poster above that noticed Routh might have not smiled in that last shot intentionally. But even with most of the film's threads incompleted in the back of my mind, I felt that was a major and even bigger reason for that particular ReeveEnding. Even with things not completed and cemented, there's no need to lose it amidst the task (so AllStar, so SuperhopefulSpark).

But I'm still waiting for Mr Sunshine Teeth in the sequels (I showed my teeth at the time, but that's no comparison). And I'm also hoping the sequels will be uberglow (or at least in key with that beautiful last sun penetration shot).

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