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Superman Returns - Post -release thread

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
Brigade du jour
10:18 / 20.07.06
And kudos for the poster above that noticed Routh might have not smiled in that last shot intentionally.

Thanks, but modesty forces me to point out that I only noticed it because I know the '78 Superman film backwards, inside-out, upside-down, round-and-round and with a cherry on top.
 
 
buttergun
12:46 / 20.07.06
Sounds like we have the beginnings of a great Superman Returns follow-up gestating here. Where to meet to write? How about the "Creation" forum??

>>How about a Bizarro Zod? A Bizarrod! Wouldn't that be a surprise twist? Maybe Lex found Zod's frozen body underneath the Fortress and revived it using the power of the cristals!!!<<

A cool idea for sure -- but I think I've read somewhere that in Donner's ending for Superman 2, Zod was handcuffed and led away by the police(!). From what I've read, Singer has only considered Donner's plans for Superman 2 as canon, and none of the Richard Lester stuff -- hence Supes' kid having super powers can be explained because in the Donner version (apparently -- we'll find out when it's released in November) Superman and Lois have sex BEFORE Superman gets rid of his powers (whereas in the Richard Lester version of 2, this happened after he became a regular human).

It seems Singer was hip to all the stuff Donner had in mind for 2, and filmed Returns as a direct sequel to it, even if most of the stuff Donner filmed has yet to see the light of day.
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:51 / 20.07.06
Oh, btw, I forgot to mention this in my previous posts, but, man, I wish I had Lex Luthor boat, complete with helicopter, glass-floor library and all. A perfect mobile base for a criminal mastermind...
 
 
Henningjohnathan
19:41 / 20.07.06
How about a Bizarro Zod? A Bizarrod! Wouldn't that be a surprise twist? Maybe Lex found Zod's frozen body underneath the Fortress and revived it using the power of the cristals!!!

If they continue with the "this is a sequel to Superman 2" approach in the next Superman, I think Non would be a much more interesting Bizarro than Zod.

As far as sequels, I hope the next one, if the same team is on it, takes more risks.
 
 
buttergun
20:37 / 20.07.06
Not to be a nitpicker, but I think introducing an actual, non-"imaginary story" SON to the Superman mythos is a pretty big risk. In one film the producers showed more balls than decades of writers in the comics -- they've permanently affected the Superman storyline with a wholly new (and now integral) character.
 
 
Spaniel
20:58 / 20.07.06
I'd tend to agree with that. It has the potential to be a mighty big balls up, and they must know it.
 
 
Mug Chum
21:01 / 20.07.06
Indeed, this film was bold (not saying it was a good decision. But at least they went for something. I ended up loving having the kid in the film).

If they put Zod in a sequel, I hope there'll be also a Supergiant (maybe as the new version of the big strong russian-type dude from Krypton of Superman2), and Zod flies through his head like a bullet (yes, exactly like Apollo in The Authority. That is a moment to be filmed).

Yes, it'd be pretty weird (and pretty hardcore for a Superman film. But hey, it's a villain) for Zod to kill a fellow-godzilla, but maybe he would want to do it if the giant was about to kill Superman, and Zod wanted him to live so he could kneel before Zooood! or something.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
22:08 / 20.07.06
To me, the addition of the son was akin to the Father-Son conflict in the Hulk. It seemed like something the filmmakers tagged on because they had little faith in the original material. They felt Superman "needed" some inner emotional conflict.

Now, if they had had a daughter...
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
08:36 / 21.07.06
I just found an Kevin Smith interview in which he talks about the never made "Superman Lives" movie project(sorry if this has been already posted) check it out HERE (you'll have to scroll down a bit, its the second youtube window in the page)
 
 
buttergun
12:53 / 21.07.06
You can find the Kevin Smith script online. I recall reading it about 6 years ago. Don't remember much about it. Just some weird moment in the beginning where Superman saves some kid, then, seeing the spaghetti stains on the kid's shirt, says he like spaghetti himself, or something like that. I don't remember the script being all that great. Mostly because it was the Superman/Doomsday deal, with the death-and-resurrection-of, etc...you know, stuff that really never needs to make it into a movie. Like most (I assume), I always thought the "death of Superman" deal was just...well, stupid, so I've never thought there was a need to make a movie out of it. (Imagine a group of studio execs in conference: "Okay, what we need is a movie where Superman is DEAD!!")

Anyway...here's what I want to see in the next movie. There was a series of Superman cartoons in the 1950s (maybe it was the '60s, I'm not sure). This Superman was a bit more lethal than the current incarnation. His solution to most problems was just to hurl whatever he was up against INTO THE FUCKING SUN. One episode in particular (each ep was only about 10 minutes long) he threw a whole colony of aliens into the sun, eradicating them all. Something very un-Superman like, these days.

So, if Braniac was to be the villain in the next flick, I'd love a moment where Superman tears off his head and chucks it into the sun -- and this COULD bypass the "Superman never kills" law, as the movie could go out of its way beforehand to explain that Braniac is mostly an android-type thing, and that there would be more than a good chance that he'd return somehow.

As for the kid, my favorite part of the Superman Returns was the revelation that he was in fact Supes' son, when he slammed the henchman with the piano. So his introduction is fine by me. I figure if they'd given Superman a daughter, non-comics fans would've gotten the wrong impression and just figured she would one day become Supergirl, not understanding/knowing the Superman mythos. In other words, they'd probably assume that in the comics Supergirl is Superman's daughter.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:20 / 21.07.06
and being half human, there's a good chance of super-kid growing up to be a super-krunt. (he's already smushed someone!!)

ie. violent and not very nice.

film was kinda beautiful in parts but kinda forgettable too. bit laboured in parts too - tiring.

homage (tho to what precisely I'm not sure) all over it.

they tried hard to keep luthor away from dr.evil territory - and they pulled it off - but his input to the movie felt brief.

rumbles, supe's godlike distance from mortals, and the crystal terror sequences, all good.

didn't dig the louis = mary metaphor tho and didn't feel inspired by the ecological armageddon subtext either.

music was a bit wearying as well - apart from the signature blast o'course.

anyway, for the perfect lois, see hudsucker proxy's Jennifer Jason Leigh performance.

this lois was just okay. (miles better than kidder tho)
 
 
Dead Megatron
15:14 / 21.07.06
Actually, I liked Smalville's Lois better than the movie's.

And, although I agree with buttergun that Kevin Smith's script wasn't all that good in the end, I still recommend that you all watch his interview linked above. It is a lesson on the sutpidity of Holywood producers. Not to mention it's quite a funny story too.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:30 / 21.07.06
I still want to see this film again.

Was surprised Lois didn't figure out Supes and Clark were the same person when she visits him in the hospital ans sees him vulnerable and helpless. At his most "clarkish."

In our Dream sequel I'd cast John Malkovitch as Braniac in his most human form. Wearing the lab coat and sporting those red modules in his head. He could snobbishly dismiss Luthor's intelligence then decide Lex could still be more useful than the modified earth monkey he's collected. At least Lex can carry a conversation with-out the need for a diaper.

As the movie progressed the Braniac would be revealed to be less and less human. That humanoid body eventually being discarded for the giant Space ship with tentacles. Perhaps Luthor would be co-opted as a remote host for braniac ala Alan Moore's "what-ever happened to the man of tomorrow."

Part 3 could feature a grown up Superson returning to the present day to prevent a post WAR WORLD earth from happening. Lots of Time Travel, and sideways mentions of the legion of superheros & the 30th century, Mogul and an earth that's been occupied. Time could then be rewound back to the point just before Superman's 5 year departure.
 
 
Spaniel
18:49 / 21.07.06
didn't dig the louis = mary metaphor tho

I'm not sure how much that was developed. I mean, sure, you could read that into it, but I can't remember much effort going into that idea.

and didn't feel inspired by the ecological armageddon subtext either.

I know what you're saying but I'm not really sure there was too much of that going on either, except in the most obvious, ostensible way, in that I don't think that's where the emotional punch of Lex's plot lies. That's just boring surface stuff.
 
 
Spaniel
19:22 / 21.07.06
And the homage bit, er, c'mon.
 
 
Dead Megatron
01:18 / 22.07.06
Ok, enough with the especulation.


Singer Will Helm Superman Sequel
 
 
&#9632;
20:38 / 23.07.06
I was whistling the theme all the way home. I enjoyed it, but agree that it is little more than a homage to the Donner films with a few shiny bits and some fan-pleasing thrown in. I did get the inspiration thing, even if I was annoyed at the religious imagery.
I'm amazed no-one has mentioned yet is just how hard they worked to make it look like an Alex Ross comic. And, for good or ill, they nailed it. The lighting, the contrast, the angles - Singer must just love Ross.
My own contribution to the minor dodgy science irritation was the weightlessness scene in the plane. It was visually cool but just because you leave the atmosphere doesn't mean you're going to start floating.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:12 / 23.07.06
In a sense the most important scene for me was Clark Kent, as a child, jumping through maize fields. Years of sanctimonius republican Clark's adolescence in Smallville were completely wiped out for me as I watched this boy jumping around. There was a real sense of love for superpower in that scene, no weighty, miserable shackle around his neck just joy. What a fucking relief.

I didn't really feel that there was enough cohesion between the two plotlines in this film. Maybe if Lois had been a bit dogged about the blackout earlier it would have been more unified but I didn't feel they brought across why she got on that boat. It resulted in getting a bit impatient with the Lex Luthor scenes that often seemed to be tagged in when we were catching Superman's psychology. If Lois had been more investigatory then maybe his psyche could have been tied in through her.

Mostly I quite liked the idea that Lois and Supey did the deed at some point. Good to know they actually didn't spend their entire relationship making googly eyes at each other but actually, you know, behaved like real sexy people.

Also I almost wept with joy when the theme music came on at the beginning. Yay the music!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:21 / 23.07.06
By the way harking back to an earlier point in this thread I don't think Richard has to die. It would be far more interesting and binding to simply give him the knowledge of Clark's identity. Make him safeguard the secret... make him family, make him Jonathan Kent.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
23:34 / 23.07.06
I loved this film.

What I think some people might be missing about the "homage" stuff is this: it's not just a great example of a film that's part of a franchise doing what (some) comics had to learn to do years ago - i.e. reference the good things from past incarnations, ignore the bits you think are bad. It's also there because this is a film about our relationship with the past - about losing things, and whether you get to get them back. So when Superman takes Lois flying and we hear the same music that played during the similar sequence in Superman the movie, it's an effective way of reminding us of what it was like the first time he took her "up", but also how long it's been, and how things have changed in the interim.

Seth is quite right to point out the importance of that final "Goodbye Lois". Having been brave enough to not make Lois Lane's new man a complete dick, the film was equally brave to not then conveniently kill him off, and I hope they avoid the temptation in any sequels. As Tryphena has pointed out, Richard plays the same role as Jonathan Kent - the man who is willing to raise a child who is not biologically his son, as his own. That's why the film, and Superman, affords him so much respect. If we're going to get all New Testament (and hey, why not, the film does often enough), then Richard and Jonathan Kent are both analogous to Joseph, the earthly father of Jesus. Richard is earthly father, and whatever awareness the kid has of his bond with Superman, he still thinks of Richard as "Daddy", as we see from the drawing he gives his mum when they're at the Planet near the end of the film. When Superman cries in Jason's room, he's crying for what he and Jason have lost - and not just the five years he was away. The two of them will have a relationship now, and at some point the connection between them will be explained to Jason (it's entirely right that nobody tried to do that within the film - talk about messing the kid up), but it won't be quite the relationship they would have had if Superman hadn't left.

Even so, the return of the absent father = the film's emotional core. It's such a persistent narrative: it's what every abandonned child wants, it's the reason Superman went into space in the first place, looking for some trace of his "heavenly" father who's absence is still felt in the film no matter how often his words are heard (and then respoken, passed down like scripture). Are the Christian touches* in Superman Returns appropriate? Yes, because the return of the absent father is a big part of the Christian mythos - alternatively you could see it as the returning Sun God - the two don't contradict.

Another I liked about this film, and one of the reasons the people complaining about a lack of "action" have got it so wrong, is the awareness that what Superman is about primarily is saving people, not beating up baddies. There is no final one-to-one conflict in which Superman "beats" Luthor - he defeats him by saving the people he'd intended to destroy.

I've enjoyed a lot of the comic book adaptations that have come to the cinema in the last five or so years, but this one had an emotional richness and depth to it that somehow hit harder than all the others.

*And there are loads - Superman can't just come back to life from his near-death state, instead a woman has to find the tomb empty and the linen he was wrapped in cast aside, do you see?
 
 
Dead Megatron
00:03 / 24.07.06
I agree with everything yoy say in your post, FB, excet this:

When Superman cries in Jason's room, he's crying for what he and Jason have lost

I don't think he cried for what he's lost, but of what he's just gained: he has a son! After his visit to the graveyeard that is Krypton, the realisation he's no longer, nor he will ever be again, alone, is enough to make even a demi-god cry.

And it's also the moment he pass his legacy onto Jason, as Jor-El once passed his onto him.

You will be different, sometimes you'll feel like an outcast, but you'll never be alone. You will make my strength your own. You will see my life through your eyes, as your life will be seen through mine. The son becomes the father and the father becomes the son.

Wouldn't you cry at a moment like that? The (super) man is exploding with joy, not grief.
 
 
&#9632;
07:44 / 24.07.06
Ooh, ooh, just remembered one of my favourite jokes where Lois asks: "How many fs in catastrophic?" Now that's how journalism really works.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:12 / 24.07.06
I think it's a mix of the two, DM.
 
 
Dead Megatron
09:11 / 24.07.06
It's quite possible indeed
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:21 / 24.07.06
homage issue, boboss, 'precisely' was the key word.

lots of homage going on, to brando, donner and reeves, to recent developments in comic books, to the baby jesus bejesus - even some nods to batman 1989 with keaton and nicholson. I thought spacey did a nicholson as far as reimagining supervillains is concerned. (his goons were kinda like jack's and posey was a bit like jerry hall's moll).

There was even a nod to buseik's overated superman story - prestige format thing he did a couple of years back about a boy realsing he's superman . . . the running jumping scene - I think - was a direct lift.

ok, so maybe reference rather than homage is the word here, whatever - I found the re-orientation stuff a bit confusing and unnecessary.

anyway, I liked the way perry white said, 'truth, justice and all that stuff' or words to that effect rather than adding in 'the american way' at the end - was this a brian singer nod to genral distaste with the american way today? or was it a script tweak to welcome a wider audience, one which is no longer in thrall to the 'greatness' of the US?

there was another cute move when someone said, 'is it a bird, is it a plane . . .' without completing the phrase.

I liked that.

but from the 'I'm off to challenge Luthor' bit onwards, I kinda lost interest.

tho yeah, probably more good than bad.

nevertheless superman 2 still does it for me, more.

ps. sorry if some points made here have already been made - been skim reading the thread.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:52 / 24.07.06
>> was this a singer nod to genral distaste with the american way today? or was it a script tweak to welcome a wider audience, one which is no longer in thrall to the 'greatness' of the US?

Both. This has been mentioned by the filmmakers in various interviews.

I still would've liked to see Superman say towards the end "I'm going to hunt down Luthor and bring him to justice for all the damage he's caused, people he's hurt, etc." It was like everyone forgot about Luthor once his scheme was stopped.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:57 / 24.07.06
Perhaps he should have said it to camera? Whilst pointing his finger with great emphasis.
 
 
Spaniel
18:53 / 24.07.06
Superman 2 does it for me, big time, Yawnster.

It would be far more interesting and binding to simply give him the knowledge of Clark's identity. Make him safeguard the secret... make him family, make him Jonathan Kent.

I think that would be interesting, but I can't see Lois and Clark being kept away from each other for the duration of the forthcoming series of films, and if they are intended to get together (and, seriously, would anyone want to argue that things might not go in that direction), something is going to have to be done about Richard. I suppose he could be the big man and stand aside, but that could serve to make Supes a slightly more morally ambiguous , dare I say flawed, figure than perhaps he should be.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
23:50 / 24.07.06
I think Richard will find tru luv with Kitty. They both deserve it!

Favourite moment: the bit where Lois drops her bag and Clark bends down to help her, dropping his glasses in the process. She's rooting around for her fags and tampons or whatever and there's a wonderful "will he, won't he" heartbeat where Clark has to decide whether to replace the specs before she looks up and remain Clark, or leave them on the carpet and reveal himself to her as Superman. A real "miss the kiss" moment. Just superb.
 
 
buttergun
12:34 / 25.07.06
>there was another cute move when someone said, 'is it a bird, is it a plane . . .' without completing the phrase.<

That was a clever scene, with Perry White, Lois, and Jimmy looking at the photos. Then as soon as they said "plane," Clark walked into the room, and everyone looked up at him -- "it's Superman" himself.

As for the "truth, justice, and all that stuff" deal, believe it or not, that was prime material for right-wing talk show hosts here in the States. They were actually saying the movie was anti-American due to its removal of the phrase "the American way," and I know the producers were called in on a lot of these shows, to defend themselves. I even have a pretty intelligent friend who unfortunately happens to be on the hard-right side of things, and this guy, a Superman fan since he was a kid...that was all he could talk about (and he hadn't even seen the movie yet!), that he'd heard the producers had dropped the phrase "the American way." Pretty sad.
 
 
John Octave
15:12 / 25.07.06
Frankly, I think it's just in character for jaded Perry White to sort of deflate such an idealistic slogan. If it had been "truth, justice and freedom" or whatever instead, one gets the sense Perry still would've said "all that stuff" or "blah blah blah," just so the newsroom wouldn't think he's gotten caught up in the moment. He's a professional, dammit!

If Singer took "the American way" out of it for any reason beyond that, the veryfine journalists at Fox News may debate all they like, but it still makes sense for Perry to say it.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
11:53 / 26.07.06
perry white needs a comic of his own.

could call it the daily planet.

don't think its been done.

would be cool.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:47 / 26.07.06
The son becomes the father and the father becomes the son.

Exactly how is that Supes? I can understand the first bit, but how exactly do you become the son? Both of your Dad's are dead, and you weren't there for either of them, Superdick.

And I don't think you're in any position to stop Lois smoking since you had unprotected supersex with her and then left her to bring up the baby. You're lucky the sprog didn't initially have powers and so didn't kick it's way out of her womb.

What an annoyingly awful film. What I don't understand is how the people that brought us X2, the best of the trilogy, fucked this up so badly. It's like the Fantastic Four movie, it doesn't work to keep the goodies and the baddy apart until a short while before the end of the movie because the audience will spend their time impatiently waiting for the fight. Brandon Routh was aces as Superman but everyone else sucked.

I should also point out that if you're going to do a storyline where Superman disappears for five years, it might be advisable to cast actors who are in their mid-thirties. Routh was born in '79, Bosworth in '83 and they both look their age. It simply never convinces that the real Superman left Earth was not just to avoid being done for sex with a minor.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:05 / 26.07.06
What about the film did you think was bad, Our Lady Who Hates So Many Good Things? Apart from Superman not being able to save Jor-El from dying when he was a baby, or something, or people looking too young.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:12 / 26.07.06
On the "keeping the goodies and baddies apart" complaint - that's only a problem if your audience is only interested in the more obvious conflict resolution rather than the rich, resonant emotional stuff that's going on.
 
  

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