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Too Many Agent Smiths?

 
  

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pointless & uncalled for
14:58 / 28.03.06
I don't really know alas, but to me the above seems intended as slightly self-deprecating. "I'd like to assign everyone here" would seem overbearing to me were it not for the preamble, where alas seems to, you know, put on a kind of teacher hat as a bit of a joke.

It was the "then let's talk" bit that did it for me. As in, it isn't worth me talking to you until you've read this book because, having read it, I'm far too clever for you to understand me. Catch up dumbass.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:58 / 28.03.06
Agree with miss wonderstarr. Plus, if there are those here really can't cope with the approach taken by alas, of all people - who, for example, was willing to keep politely engaging with (and even discouraging more aggressive attacks on) ShadowSax, of all cocking people - if anyone here really feels that alas is the kind of censorious, counter-revolutionary, close-minded bully who's ruining everyone's fun, then they really do need to think long and hard about the possibility of migrating to the Bizarre Magazine forum instead.
 
 
illmatic
15:02 / 28.03.06
BTW - It was A Room of One's Own But you both knew that, right?

Scientist: When are you going to post your thoughts then?
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
15:16 / 28.03.06
Hence my suggestion that a Room With a View would be less stellar reading on the subject.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:25 / 28.03.06
Illmatic - yeah, brainfart there. Doesn't alter my position that TSK's reading of alas' post was wrong, wrong and more wrong, in my humble but almost unerringly correct opinion (excepting book titles).
 
 
The Falcon
15:31 / 28.03.06
Yeah, it's not like Agent Smith was a big PATRONIZOR. I don't even think it terribly patronising to suggest reading a short story; if anything, it marks a good shift in engagement.

(Also, I got it confused with To the Lighthouse, instead of Forster in the Books thread, but it's a really common mistake that I've made before.)
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
16:06 / 28.03.06
I don't even think it terribly patronising to suggest reading a short story; if anything, it marks a good shift in engagement.

Is this book the sole gateway to understanding feminism?
 
 
The Falcon
16:09 / 28.03.06
Of course not.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:11 / 28.03.06
Please show on the doll where she said that it was.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
16:24 / 28.03.06
"then let's talk"
 
 
Dead Megatron
16:32 / 28.03.06
DM could certainly feel hard-done-by by alas' subsequent whupping of the quality of his contributions, but... well... I'm not saying that Dead Megatron does not, for the purposes of our inquiry, count. I'm just saying.

I'm afraid the language barrier is being a problem here yet again. Are you saying I'm one of the "bad guys" or the "good guys" here, Haus? I'm just asking.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:37 / 28.03.06
Right. I think we have a good example of the sort of issue VV might be describing. What TSK has done here is utterly misread somebody, both in terms of the content of their post and the tone in which it was delivered. Now, he is basically backed into a corner here. His interpretation is incorrect and he is starting to contradict himself - in this case, by citing "then let's talk" as demonstrating that alas believes and was claiming that the only possible way to look at feminism was by reading Giovanni's Room, when it clearly does not.

So, what do we do? That's tricky. His tactic here is basically to hope that he can stick to his guns until everyone else is exhausted. This will bring the thread to a grinding halt. Another alternative would be for him to prove that his reading is correct, which personally I believe to be possible, but only to a fairly small number of members of Barbelith. Finally, there is the possibility that he can be induced to review his position. This was my intention when I suggested that we see if anyone else took alas' statement the way he did - to make him reconsider whether it was in fact easy to take it that way, or whether it was in fact quite hard, and requiring of some effort. However, people who appear to depend openly or by implication on majority support or disagreement often turn out to be pretty much independent of that.

So, in the more civilised form of TSK, we have our basic problem - how do you make somebody rebalance the weight between themselves and their opinions?
 
 
Dead Megatron
16:43 / 28.03.06
What? No answer?
 
 
Evil Scientist
16:47 / 28.03.06
threadus rotticus

Scientist: When are you going to post your thoughts then?

Umm, the dog ate my brain?

Sorry, I've been a bit shit about getting round to the Book thread on Matrix Room Wolf Warrior. Will post directly.

endus threadus rotticus, ave!
 
 
Char Aina
17:09 / 28.03.06
i'm not sure what the opposite is to the 'too many agent smiths' model.
i find all the matrix storyline is too flubbery a metaphor to help much...
anyone?

what sort of society do we want to engender in our sunken cave of dodgy rave?
 
 
Seth
18:47 / 28.03.06
There are sections in the wiki that talk about posting etiquette when you’re angry: Please do not be personally rude even when people are really really annoying. Always try and argue the point not the person. If you get into a big fight with someone then sometimes it's hard to get out of the spiral. Flamewars never end well and we try to avoid them because sometimes people get cornered and go nuts and we have to boot them out. This is regrettable and (thankfully) rare. I try to remember this from time to time.

I agree that it was never in the non-existent Barbelith charter to do our best to talk informatively to people even when they have said things that trigger a reaction in us to see red. To some extent I see appeals to the nature of this site and it’s perceived values as a smokescreen behind which we evade personal responsibility with a brisk comment that’s the equivalent of “Well, there’s no sign on the door saying that we seek to educate.” Who cares if there is or isn’t? Whether you choose to try to educate and inform or not, be clear on that choice, the way you’ve chosen to do it, your motivations for doing it and what you are aiming to achieve. And be clear that it was your choice. Be responsible for it and the effects it may have.

Where this applies to people who commit potential or actual hate crimes on Barbelith is much more highly charged, because whenever a hate crime is committed it’s not just the group it was targeted against (whether that targeting was intentional or not) who is aggrieved. It’s everyone in earshot, everyone who can read the post, and arguably even the person who posted it, whether they understand the issue or not. I don’t think hate crimes is necessarily too strong a term having experienced the way these things are policed, or are supposed to be policed. Because these posts have the capability of harming the whole community it’s understandable that the many members of the community choose to comment in anger. At best those comments are an intelligent refutation of the ideas espoused by the poster. They also allow us to vent our anger, to give it an outlet, and that’s also understandable. They allow us to publicly state our values, in that they make it clear what we are not, or what we believe we are not. There are also occasions at which I wonder whether the comments are an othering of the horrible recognition of the same prejudice within ourselves, or the remembrance of prejudice in ourselves, or a resemblance we recognise on some level to prejudices that we hold, and the need to push all of that outwards and away from ourselves and onto a public scapegoat. They can be one or all of the above, or any combination.

All of that is understandable and we have a huge variety of choices in how we can respond, more than we probably ever realise, and we are responsible for those choices, arguably even when we never realised we had them. Something that I’ve found fascinating recently is the willing removal of one of these options in service of what I believe to be the best way to do my job dealing with hate crimes for the police, and that’s the personal choice to remove the option of reacting in anger at all. Sometimes I come away from those calls and I’m spitting fire, at which point I have to take a break, or pray, or speak in tongues, or breathe deep, or get another jasmine tea, or massage the point at which my skull joins my neck, or stand up and shake it off, or tell someone about it and sometimes analyse (by myself or with the help of others) whether my anger is justifiable. I try to have a few ways up my sleeve of dealing with this anger so it’s not still in my system for the next call, and sometimes I fail to do that. One of the best ways of dealing with this kind of anger to very calmly and rationally detail my opinions of the caller’s prejudice in the police log (when it’s appropriate for me to do so) with no emotive language, so that any officers dealing with the situation are aware of my experience in a manner that is professional and balanced.

And it’s thankless, apart from those rare instances in which colleagues or supervisors are aware of my work and give me feedback. I’ll usually never know whether I got through to them. I have only the duration of the call to speak to the person, we’ll probably never know each other outside of that environment. But what’s interesting is the effect that it has on me and developing my flexibility in ways to handle those situations. I find myself wondering about the person I’m talking to, about what ways I could employ to introduce the ideas, about whether I can make them see other points of view, how I can draw their attention to the effects of their actions, whether I’m betraying that I’m angry in my tone of voice or communication style, thinking about where their beliefs come from and what it might take for them to change. At my best I approach these situations as a fresh unknown wondering what might be possible. And often I’ll fail. Some of them might never chose to listen, or I’ll notice something I’ve done that’s caused my efforts to collapse through being inept. But if I don’t act from a belief in what is possible from the outset I might let opportunities pass me by. So it’s not just about the person I’m trying to talk to, but also about me and how I can change myself.

But then the situations aren’t fully comparable. I spend ten hours a day getting paid to adopt that approach. None of us get paid for our hours on Barbelith (with the possible exception of grant who I believe sometimes uses it as a resource for story ideas for work and therefore may have a vested interest in this place having a high content value. He’s one of our most educational and non-confrontational posters). We have other demands on our time, and attempting to understand and communicate with people whose opinions we hate takes a lot of time and effort and soul-searching. And while this is all true, Barbelith is always at its best when we turn our ability to critique on ourselves and our posts at the same time as on other people and their posts, so that what we put on here best represents us and our thoughts and we are sure that everything we put on this site is of the highest value we can manage at any given moment.

Yeah, it’s an ideal and I’m probably quite an idealistic (read: insufferable) person. Do with as you will.
 
 
Seth
19:04 / 28.03.06
And to be even more insufferable, above and beyond the call of duty, as one last thought on the subject before I head out for a beer or three, here's an Aristotle quote: “Anyone can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person at the right time, and for the right purpose and in the right way - that is not within everyone's power and that is not easy.” It's on the wall at the training room at work.
 
 
illmatic
19:12 / 28.03.06
Links: Anger on the board and Anger in Real life.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:14 / 28.03.06
I'll repeat some wise words told to me years ago: "Anger is a weapon of war, it is a sharp sword. To yield it idly is foolish, if not dangerous"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:12 / 28.03.06
As somebody who has encountered both, no it isn't.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:14 / 28.03.06
I want Seth and Alas to be my adopted parents.
 
 
*
20:22 / 28.03.06
In the A Room With A Moose thread, Alas even said she would be happy to engage in discussion about the book with people who hadn't read it. I think your argument for elitism is not very convincing to me, Seldom, and I think it might be based on a decision about the "tone" of her posting which is mostly projected by you. "and then we'll talk" might be interpreted as closing off discussion until condition A is met, or it might mean more talking can also happen after condition A, and that's largely a matter of tone. I've had a problem, myself, that because I'm an auditory person I tend to read tone into people's posts where none is present, and often I react negatively to what I think people are saying based on a tone that I don't realize at the time I've imagined. Could something similar be happening here?

As I see it, the responsibilities of Barbelithers are 1) to avoid the combination of stupid and offensive which is considered over the line here (granted the line shifts as the norms shift, which is unavoidable) 2) to own their words, and be responsible for any failures to meet (1), including apology if necessary. Something else which we encourage are thoughtful contributions which add to the quality of discussion ("thoughtful" here being inclusive of certain kinds of humor and disincluding others, which is also unavoidably subjective). The latter is not required; we have lots of members who have never posted at all but some of whom read avidly, and that's great too, I think. Certainly I've been through periods of avid reading and never posting.

Helping other posters understand new points of view falls under a thoughtful contribution. It's not a requirement, but it is greatly encouraged.

However, when a poster is genuinely offended by something, for reasons which others may not fully understand— perhaps someone says something which appears funny or thoughtful to others but wounds me deeply because of some personal experience, or perhaps hearing the word "lame" used as a synonym for "bad" makes me fly into a rage that day— their anger is also a thoughtful contribution, in my opinion, provided that anger is genuine. I think that the opportunity to see the effects of our words on others' feelings is something generally missing from message boards, something we could benefit from. I don't mean people should "post angry" if it's going to cause them to be abusive, but I also don't think that anger should be dismissed as undesirable to see on the board.

Where I see the problem coming in is when people join a "dogpile" just to be counted as one of the good guys. I think it's unnecessary. But there's a tension between some of the feelings expressed in the Feminism thread— i.e. that some people were doing all the work of challenging sexism, and never hearing agreement or support from other posters— and my feeling that maybe people who don't have a reason to add to a thread other than to show that they also disagree with X offensive or seemingly wrongheaded statement should refrain until their contribution becomes more needed or helpful. (Or when it's asked for, like in the Sensitivity Training Needed thread.)

What I really want to avoid is the perception that people who are hurt, angered, or offended by something are being the Barbecops. (And I feel the reference to Agent Smiths leads in this direction, if we're not careful.) That is, as always, a tactic which has the effect, if not the intent, of making people feel silenced and unable to express their feelings freely here. I realize that people may begin to be afraid to express their opinions for fear of making others angry or offended— see hoatzin's tentative but valuable threads here and here— still, my anger doesn't have to be wielded as a silencing force. Can we figure out how to do that? I think that's a great discussion to have in the Anger on Barbelith thread.
 
 
*
20:41 / 28.03.06
(I don't have the excuse of cross-posting with Seth— I'd already come up with some things I wanted to say, and wanted to get them down, and skipped over his eloquent and beautiful post, which I must remind myself never to do again. Thanks.)
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:41 / 28.03.06
As somebody who has encountered both, no it isn't.

It can be, if properly focused.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:01 / 28.03.06
Tell you what, DM. You have the anger, I'll have the sharp sword. On account of how you have both anger and, with the proper focus, a sharp sword, I think it's only fair that I have five minutes free hitting.

All right? Marvellous. Now, as you were.
 
 
*
21:19 / 28.03.06
I'm sure you're familiar with metaphor, Haus; I believe it's a rhetorical device. Is it the use of metaphor here you object to, or is it that this one in particular is not very good? Only I think DM might be confused about why you're seeming to pick at him, and maybe if you're clearer about your motivations it will save time and hurt.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:25 / 28.03.06
His interpretation is incorrect and he is starting to contradict himself - in this case, by citing "then let's talk" as demonstrating that alas believes and was claiming that the only possible way to look at feminism was by reading Giovanni's Room, when it clearly does not.

So, what do we do? That's tricky.


Well, I'm prepared to chat with TSK.

The Seldom Killer, at first glance when I looked at the post by alas with which you raised issues, I tended to agree with you.

However, I asked myself if it could be interpreted in another way, and indeed (above) I saw that it could.

If I'd found the link in the Feminism thread that led to A Thread of Its Own, then I would have been swung to the reading that alas had meant that "assignment" lightheartedly, as a book-group topic rather than a requirement of joining in further discussion at all:

In the Conversation's Feminism 101 thread I somewhat jokingly said that everyone should read A Room of One's Own (1929) by Virginia Woolf

Like (id)entity, I can see how you would have read "then let's talk" the way you did. It could sound like "go away, read this, then when you're done, you're entitled to speak again."

Or, it could have sounded like "how about we read this book, and discuss it."

Looking at the phrase in context -- "Then come back and let's talk--here or in the quiet old books forum. I'll bring the tea, if one of you men will bring the crumpets" -- I think the latter, cosier meaning is what was meant.

I don't entirely agree with Haus that you have "misread", or made an incorrect interpretation. I think you read it in a way alas didn't intend, and I think there was a degree of ambiguity in tone. I could also have read it the way you did.

However, now I've looked more thoroughly at the passages we're referring to, I think the meaning and the tone are clear enough. I don't think there's any shame in me or you taking a meaning that wasn't intended by alas, at first glance. Perhaps you will join me though in accepting that alas' intended meaning is also there in the text, and that it's quite possible, even more plausible, to read it that way; as jokey and friendly, rather than patronising and sneering.

I think it's easier and more positive to accept that than to keep arguing that the first reading you took is the only possible one.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:27 / 28.03.06
O not "rhetoric" again
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:38 / 28.03.06
Tell you what, DM. You have the anger, I'll have the sharp sword. On account of how you have both anger and, with the proper focus, a sharp sword, I think it's only fair that I have five minutes free hitting.

I Accept your terms, and I'm betting I still would win the fight. But, to be fair, you seem to be more angry at me than me at you, sooo, I'm not sure it's gonna be fair.

And I know you know what a metaphor is, so I won't even get into that.

Explaining the quote, once upon a time, a buddhist zen master gave a lecture in our university, to which some friend and me attended. He was answering questions from the audience with the help of a translator. Someone asked him about how to control emotions, since his anger outbursts were destroying his friendships. And the aforementioned metaphor was used to explain why we should not be angry at our friends under no circunstances. (He then proceed to say that hatred - which was part of the question, can't remember exactly, it was almost ten years ago - should be avoided even in was, for it destroys the soul of the hater more than the hated. "It's like the Dark Side of the Force", he said next. He was a very funny Chinese person)
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:39 / 28.03.06
Sorry, "some friends and I attended"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:56 / 28.03.06
Only I think DM might be confused about why you're seeming to pick at him, and maybe if you're clearer about your motivations it will save time and hurt.

Fair point. In this case, my annoyance with Dead Megatron, once again, is because rather than attempting to contribute to the ongoing discussion in a thread, he has picked up on a single word - in this case "anger" - and simply shared whatever bounces happily into his mind at the thought of that word, in order to remind us that he is still here. He has subsequently fallen into the same trap as the late, lamented Vladimir J Baptiste, by adding more irrelevancy, rather than less.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:01 / 28.03.06
Having said which, it is a toss metaphor. Anger is like a weapon - well, of course it is. It's like a bubbling pot and a thrown rock and a sharp sword and a sharpened spoon and a poke in the eye. So what? Where's the metonymic bridge? What, simply put, is the bleedin' point of that metaphor?

Also, double points lost for the Internet tough guy nonsense.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:09 / 28.03.06
Fair enough. My point was, and still is: I believe that anger is counter-productive in the attempt to correct one's faulty behavior in Barbelith. The same thing can be said with a calm and polite tone and be extremely more efficient into getting the message across (people don't feel bullied that way). But, instead of writing a long post explainning my position, so that people would have to think exactly like me (which I beggining to feel is your style), I choose to leave a metaphor that was passed to me by a wise man. Why? Because, this way, people can think about it for themselves and reach whatever conclusion fits better whatever moment they are in their social and spiritual development. "chewing it" themselves, to use yet anopther metaphor.

And, since you brought it up, I fail to see how your attempt to pick a fight with me would "contribute to the ongoing discussion in [this] thread" instead of just "remind[ing me] that [you are] still here".

You know, I keep hearing what a great guy you are, and I want to believe it. But you seem to be going out of your way to prove me otherwise, to demonstrate how much you despise me and my way of contributing to Convo. Please, please, let's just have peace.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:12 / 28.03.06
The point of the metaphor is that we, as part of a community, should not be angry at each other. There, I "chew it up" for you.

"Metonymic bridge"? Are you serious?
 
 
*
22:51 / 28.03.06
You know what, DM? I really generally like you; I think you're well-intentioned and you're catching on and you occasionally have pretty good things to say. And Haus you know I respect the hell out of you and I completely sympathize with why DM irritated you just now. Please take it to PMs because it makes me angry when I have to watch you guys spooge personal disagreement all over threads that still have some worthwhile left in them.
 
  

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