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Too Many Agent Smiths?

 
  

Page: 123(4)

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:49 / 30.03.06
Ok. to start with, let's try to ascertain Alex's positive intent. His positive intent is that he wants Barbelith to proceed in a content-rich fashion without any interruptions.

The basic problem with his approach to this is made pretty clear with this opening paragraph, intended to address:


Now, Alex, you've already got into a bit of cleft-stick situation: although you have not read everything, you are claiming the right to comment as if you have. In fact, you use two words in a single sentence - "always" and "everything" - to suggest to the reader that your perspective is total. So, we've got a problem there. It's the second paragraph before you admit the possibility that you're not actually qualified to make absolute statements. So, there's a further problem there. There's an issue in the language, as well - we've got some emotional verb choices - "jump on", and, as a break from the dreadful metaphor, a dreadful simile about ... oxygen denial?


Alex responds to this with:

1) You must know what I'm talking about, and yet you chose to address my language. I don't spend all day constructing my posts (and I'm sure you're going to say that I should [ you're probably right] ), so there will no doubt be issues. Was this necessary? Sure I'm learning to be more careful with what I say, but does everyone need to read that? If it really annoys you, why don't you PM your lessons?

And herein lies basically the problem. The world of message boards can be divided quite easily into two schools of thought. There are those who believe that the words that they type are what represents them on the message board, which includes me, and those who believe that typing is simply something that one does to pass the time while one beams what one actually means directly into everyone else' s head, which includes Alex Gein. As such, he is bewildered by my insistence on looking at what he has actually written, which as far as he is concerned is irrelevant to what he meant. I must know what he is talking about - why the hell have I focussed on the finger-doodles he was making when he beamed that over? Nobody else will be. I should PM this, to avoid troubling all the other people, who are plugged directly into his intent through the existence of the post rather than by actually reading the words within it, with my weird fixation on content.

You see the problem here, don't you? Alex essentially refuses to acknowledge that the way he expresses himself has any bearing on how people understand what he is saying. See "cunty" - in his head, he has said precisely the right thing, and beamed it into my brain, to make me understand that he is right and behave as he thinks I should. As such, it is unfortunate that he can't think of a word to use to fill in the idle time spent typing that is not abusive, but it is hardly relevant, and certainly nobody has any right to react to it adversely, because he has disclaimed it.

As such, I don't see a lot of point in carrying on through points 2-6.
 
 
enrieb
14:47 / 30.03.06
I understood clearly what alex was talking about, and I fully agree with him.

This thread seems to be turning into yet another example of what VV was referring to in the original post.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:58 / 30.03.06


Fully? Ok, that's cool. In which case, could you explain to me what you understood him clearly to be saying? Only, I remain confused.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:31 / 30.03.06
Or, to put it another way:

I feel frustrated that enrieb has decided, on the strength of almost no acquaintance with Barbelith, to start telling us what is wrong with it, and I feel further that these brief, vatic utterances are not helpful, being as they are devoid of detail or actual information. As such, I feel that they demand a privilege that enrieb would not extend to others, as has cropped up quite heavily in the Policy recently.

I understand that enrieb has his own beliefs, which have been developed through a lifetime, and is merely bringing his own perspective and his own methodology to Barbelith. I understand further that he has no doubt developed convictions in other environments which will appear relevant to him here.

I resolve to treat him with civility and respect, and to expect the best of interaction with him.
 
 
penitentvandal
20:32 / 02.04.06
Okay, here goes.

Alex's positive intent is that he sees Haus, in his view, 'having a go' at Dead Megatron, and wants to defend him. Haus, for his part, feels aggrieved at being described as 'cunty', and wants to defend his own honour. Enrieb appears to have as his positive intent one ironically similar to Haus' when confronted with Dead Megatron's (admittedly inexact) anger/sharp sword metaphor: to whit, to return the thread to its main topic in letter and, indeed, intent (i.e. by returning a thread to its focus on civil behaviour towards posters by attempting to defuse an increasingly uncivil argument between posters). Haus' positive intent in response is that he feels aggrieved at being posted to in a perhaps judgmental manner. My positive intent is to try and defuse all the arguing by saying what I think.

1) I actually think Alex does have a point, in his PM to Haus, when he points out that discussing Dead Megatron's metaphor is off-topic and is indeed what Haus would consider 'noise'. Oddly, I was about to make a similar (public) post myself, before I was distracted by my life for a few days, there.

2) I think Haus does have a point when he feels aggrieved ate being referred to as a 'c**ty schoolteacher' by Alex, though. It's not nice to call people cunts at any time, chaps, and it is in somewhat bad taste here, where we have recently had many discussions, often long into the digital night, over whether the usage of 'c**t' as an offensive term constitutes linguistic sexism.

3) However, I also think there is a point to be made that the post is not composed entirely of abuse. Indeed, Alex, to his credit, has tried to make an argument in his PM, but has decided, for his own reasons, to basically call Haus a c**t on his way out. But I accept that it was not Alex's sole intent to call Haus a cunt. If he had, we would have been privy to a post consisting largely of statements like the following 'Haus, you c**t, you're a c**ting c**t of a c**t and you can just f**k right off, you c**t.' That's an abusive post, you bunch of cockheads.

4)However, I uphold Haus' description of the post as abusive on the same grounds on which hate crimes are judged in UK law, i.e. that if the victim considers the action abusive then we must consider it abusive. In the end, the lesson, as often here, is this: try to avoid using abusive language wherever possible as you cannot always predict the reaction of others. And try to avoid getting embroiled in off-topic arguments, too. Like that time I got in an argument on the BB thread about Barrymore and I said he'd fisted some bloke and he hadn't, or like how Andrea Dworkin actually didn't say all penetrative sex was rape and anyway, where was I? Oh yeah, stay out of my food.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:11 / 02.04.06
I'm not sure "aggrieved" counts as a positive motivation, VV...

Interestingly, I've been sent a Private Message which almost perfectly demonstrates the dangers of the approach I described above, and of the "I understand this perfectly clearly" approach. Unfortunately, the person who sent it might be unwilling to have it used as an example. Would it be acceptable to synopsise it anonymously?
 
 
The Falcon
21:13 / 02.04.06
I think you'd best ask the sender there, eh? I suspect the likely answer will be no, though.
 
 
The Falcon
21:15 / 02.04.06
That totally looks like it was me. IT WASN'T ME, BARBELITH.
 
 
Char Aina
22:02 / 02.04.06
i'm not sure it can be sufficiently anonymous, dude.
 
 
De Selby
23:55 / 02.04.06
Y'know, I keep reading that post and I did not call Haus anything. I said that the condescending tone that he uses in his lessons sounds like it came from a school teacher who I would describe as *insert unfortunate adjective here*. I don't think thats the same thing as calling them that same unfortunate adjective. Offensive definitely, but abusive?

but anyway its offensive and lazy and yeah castrate at will.

Still waiting for you to be bothered answering those questions though Haus. It doesn't come across as particularly encouraging when a mod won't explain his actions.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:45 / 03.04.06
Oh, it's about being a moderator, is it? In what sense, exactly, do you feel this to be relevant to my status as a moderator, Alex? Please make reference to the wiki.

Only "How dare a moderator behave like this!" is usually the second resort after "you're using semantics!".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:48 / 03.04.06
I think you'd best ask the sender there, eh?

I did. Ze had not responded when I asked, and has now responded in the affirmative, in a triumph for accountability. Well done, that person.
 
 
De Selby
06:43 / 03.04.06
This is getting ridiculous. It seems like you are clinging to any reason you can find to not answer my questions. Why can't you just answer them?

but I'll bite anyway

Oh, it's about being a moderator, is it? In what sense, exactly, do you feel this to be relevant to my status as a moderator, Alex? Please make reference to the wiki.

On this page, it states
"A subsidiary function of moderators is to keep things in their forum moving, by introducing new topics or asking pertinent questions in existing ones."

Do you think posts like this and this move the forum along or just create more disputes?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:22 / 03.04.06
Actually, neither seems terribly rude, or terribly threadrotty. Also, this is the Conversation.

More generally, I think you've once again demonstrated pretty conclusively what I mentioned earlier about you not seeing what you have typed as anything other than the wormcast of your psychic transmissions. Your graceless and oh-poor-me post above:

Y'know, I keep reading that post and I did not call Haus anything. I said that the condescending tone that he uses in his lessons sounds like it came from a school teacher who I would describe as *insert unfortunate adjective here*. I don't think thats the same thing as calling them that same unfortunate adjective. Offensive definitely, but abusive?

but anyway its offensive and lazy and yeah castrate at will.

Still waiting for you to be bothered answering those questions though Haus. It doesn't come across as particularly encouraging when a mod won't explain his actions.


in your head was a brilliant and noble response which entirely exculpated you and gave you the moral high ground 4 EVAH. As such, how very rude of me not to answer your questions.

If I were to adopt your methods, your behaviour could therefore be described as like that of a (scuse me, can't think of a better word) fuckwit, who has no real sense of the people on Barbelith as anything apart from mechanisms by which you can pump your ego, without any consideration of their selfhood.

So, let's try again. Start by acknowledging that putting that offensive and abusive paragraph in at the end of your PM essentially removed your right to an answer, since nobody, moderator or not, has any obligation to respond slavishly to anyone who,, acting like a (scuse me, can't think of a better phrase) needle-dicked Internet tough guy, decides to spam him or her. Then apologise for it to me. Then ask if I could, despite your obnoxious behaviour, respond to your questions. We'll go from there.
 
 
De Selby
07:39 / 03.04.06
Actually I already apologised in a private message. And I responded to your "mod" post with a reference to the wiki.

Now I am tired of these stupid games. Do what you want Haus, as you are clearly a "triumph for accountability".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:49 / 03.04.06
You made an irrelevant reference to the wiki. Further, can I quote the PM in which you believe you apologised, Alex? I believe again you are confusing what you say in your head with what you actually type, and this might be useful.

Now, if you are honestly done with this, in the sense that you will not now stalk me, popping up and insulting me every so often in the hope that eventually I will leave Barbelith, so sick am I of dealing with the same misrepresentations being offered over and over again by people with far more patience with themselves than I could ever have, then that's fine. However, if you mean that you will become a very specific troll, that's less good.

Once again, I would ask you to take responsibility for your actions:

Start by acknowledging that putting that offensive and abusive paragraph in at the end of your PM essentially removed your right to an answer, since nobody, moderator or not, has any obligation to respond slavishly to anyone who, acting like a (scuse me, can't think of a better phrase) needle-dicked Internet tough guy, decides to spam him or her. Then apologise for it to me. Then ask if I could, despite your obnxious behaviour, respond to your questions. We'll go from there.
 
 
De Selby
08:35 / 03.04.06
All I have to say, I have said already. This is an exercise in futility so go ahead and do what you want. As for stalking you...

um

Are you serious?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:41 / 03.04.06
I'm serious that I would very much hope that you will not respond to this by foloowing me around the board, harrassing me, yes. Experience shows that this is one of the dangers of somebody not taking responsibility for their actions - it leads to a profound but non-specific resentment for the person who asked them to do so.

Speaking of which - I asked if I had your permission. I did not ask for another insulting cri de coeur. If I have your permission, I think it might be instructive to look at the PM you believe constituted an apology. If I do not, I will not. In either case, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask you to apologise inthread in order to allow us all to carry on with equilibrium restored.

Now, does anyone else feel that Alex G's six statements provide a case that needs to be answered? If so, I will attempt within the limitations of my non-psychic brane to do so.
 
 
De Selby
08:51 / 03.04.06
Haus, I am honestly interested in improving my use of the english language. Please PM me and show me what I've done wrong.

Otherwise, I'm not going to waste any more of anyones time posting in this thread. I have turned the thread into what I dislike most about barbelith. I apologise to everyone involved.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:07 / 03.04.06
Thanks, Alex. I'll PM you in a bit.

Back on the dangers of assuming that what you meant is clear from what you wrote, and that anyone not getting exactly what you meant is being deliberately obtuse, I reprint this email anonymously and with permission:

From the Agent Smiths thread:

Fully? Ok, that's cool. In which case, could you explain to me what you understood him clearly to be saying? Only, I remain confused.

Haus, Alex Gein simply noted that you continue to take DM to task over grammatical construction and semantics. At times, it seems to drown out your actual attempts to encourage ze to refine hir posting style, and it happens with an almost clockwork regularity lately. Additionally, and with regard to the Brokeback Mountain issue, please note that constantly bringing up and belittling someone for a homophobic statement they made once, a while ago, and were already called bullshit on and repented against isn't necessarily the way to encourage spiritual/social enlightenment.

I'm sorry if I'm out of line PMing you this, but it's been bothering me.


This PM is a pellucid summary of where I have gone wrong. However, it is a pellucid summary that is incorrect in almost every particular, because assumptions have been made about this fully-understood statement which have no actual basis in fact.

First, the explanation of Alex G's point. It's worth noting that Alex G does not mention grammatical constructions or semantics in his PM to me. He is wise not to do so, because I don't appear to have corrected either Dead Megatron's grammatical constructions or mentioned, referenced or employed semantics, as far as I can tell, either in this thread, in any other thread or indeed with "clockwork regularity". This seems to be based on the idea that "Tannhauser corrects people's grammatical constructions and talks about semantics", an idea so powerful that it has actually overwhelmed the less compelling evidence of what has actually been said and done.

Second, Brokeback Mountain. It's worth noting that I don't think at any point anyone has suggested that Dead Megatron's comment in the Brokeback Mountain thread was homophobic, unless Cassandra did it very obliquely. Offtopic, yes. Based on no knowledge of the film itself, also yes. Threadrot and threadrot-generating? Hell, yes. Homophobic? Not so much. Once again, it seems that the idea, "Tannhauser is all about the political correctness gone mad, mad I tell you" has proven more enticing than the tedious minutiae of what I actually said or did in this particular instance.

So, this was a simple explanation, based on a full understanding, which actually had no relation to the reality of the situation as expressed in what I actually wrote on Barbelith. As an example, it's almost too perfect.

What's the takeout? Well, to an extent, that what seems obvious to you may not be, and that what seems to you to be Agent Smith might just be somebody in a dark suit with a white shirt on.
 
 
Char Aina
14:06 / 03.04.06
well, if you will dress that way, then it's hardly surprising you get all that attention from would be saviours of the expenda-humans.

i mean.
you're just asking for a kung-frontation in a subway station, arent you?


on a serious note, i recognise much of what you say from my own conversations with you, and feel i should say something about those perceptions.

i think the 'haus-weiler' label is appealing to those of us involved in an argument with you, because, well, it makes us right. nothing feels quite so good when that sinking "oh god i'm being a twat" feeling kicks in as the life raft of buck-passing.
that you write well with an extensive(and accurately applied) vocabulary and explain things clearly(and often therefore at length) i think you can come across as didactic, something that many of barbelith's 'rebel scum' will have a reaction against almost without realising.

you sound like an authority, basically
you use language precisely and therefore expect people to look at the precise meaning of things you write.

i think.

it takes a while(and a dictionary!!!1) to realise quite how careful you can be to stay on the right side of the 'fair enough' line sometimes.
i'm sure you are not as careful as you would like all the time, and you have crossed the line in my head, albeit very rarely.

i do think its accurate to say that you get way more shit for things your challengees would like to be wrong with your shit than for things which are, however.
way more.

i also think that you get left to it more than is fair, as with vlad the bad, mad, racist cad. this may also be part of the problem with regards to the sometime perception of you as in-house haus-weiler. there seems to be some venn-over between the troubled seeing you as protector and the troublesome seeing you as overseer.

i dunno.
just thoughts.
feel free to ignore me and get on with the rest of the thread if it feels appropriate.
 
  

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