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Underground > Temple >

Sexism in magic

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20:10 / 22.05.07

some of the Lutheran branches just finished debating whether women have souls.

What? I pray to any gods that exist you're kidding.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:13 / 22.05.07

Nope.

20:20 / 22.05.07

What do people think of things like this: gender test ?

I find these things amusing, and they are accurate for some people but, I mean, I fed in a shortstory and got a considerably higher female scoring than male. Could it be plausible to engineer wording off these principles to some good effect? Does this sort of research give us anything useful towards how to structure things in daily life (aside from the fact I now know I dislike a lot of that test's 'masculine' words)?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:26 / 22.05.07

Oh wait! I've just Googled up this debunk of the women-don't-have-souls thing. Link.

Can't vouch for the site as I haven't seen the rest of it, but it looks thorough.

20:32 / 22.05.07

Whew, I hope. Although, with religious stuff, I wouldn't be surprised by branches holding on to things they know had false beginnings. But, TTS, I hope you're right and someone was just misinformed or they were BSing me and I took it straight.

21:20 / 22.05.07

That site looks sound, the current issue has a debunking of the Londonistan nonsense. TTS, thanks for the link, I'm relieved to learn you lot have souls, phew.

Unconditional Love

09:57 / 23.05.07

Its debatable as to whether anybody has a soul. I have a question are we going to need another long period of time to establish an equally gendered or genderless point of view or narrative both socially and in communication?

Alot of time and effort has gone into creating a divide or emphasising a division, how long will it take to undo that division in spiritual structures? let alone social narratives and community structure.

I ask because where i live, the only experience i dont have of that structure is in a goth club where differing perceptions are welcome, although that script is also there as well. pretty much everywhere else i look, the social script is creating the levels of narrative it needs to create to keep the division alive for those whom it benefits.

It seems any form of communication that keeps that division alive is useful to the social narrative as it stands, highlighting that a division exists. Social narratives that use attack between genders, keep the very structure they are trying to attack ticking over in my perception.

Unconditional Love

10:07 / 23.05.07

When all the genders involved finally stop fighting each other, then maybe people can grow up and move on. At the moment i see gender wars as doing nothing but reinforcing the various angles of the social scripts as they stand. Continually cycling over and going nowhere. The fight rather than the results of its achievement have become the focus of attention, its the continual struggle that is kept going, cycling on and on, that fuel and fire has become the social narrative and is fast becoming absorbed as just another one of the social games that people play. Excuse my cynicism but its what i see not just in spiritual literature, but in society at large.

10:31 / 23.05.07

Its debatable as to whether anybody has a soul.

%Gosh, is it?%
I'm glad the story about the Lutherans doubting women's souls turns out to be false, because it made no sense to me.

Unconditional Love

10:45 / 23.05.07

Yeah , Yeah.

14:01 / 23.05.07

for every sensible person you have to have ten people saying I can't understand the moon because I don't have a womb, or that Enochian is too hard for girls or some other shit.

More like 50 to 1 in my experience.

Is my view jaundiced? The limited experience of real life groups I've had is that they stick to the typical witch=earthmoonmother wizzard=skysunfather roles as though they were true like gravity and are pretty old fashioned.

I can understand why they do this from some traditions viewpoint but the fact that alot of people are not prepared to think outside what they were taught or learnt is right for their path whether from books, web or from a group/tradition is the problem in my eyes. Perhaps when they were interested in experimenting they were slapped down and now they are repeating that behaviour on newer people hence it goes in circles or perhaps they don't like people doing their own thing or experimenting with what they hold as sacred.

I come across similar roles as the witch=earthmoonmother wizzard=skysunfather in groups and individuals I know in real life, the worst thing I find is when you ask why these roles you get "female is the moon always and the sun is male" type answers then any attempted discussion runs in circles, if it continues via email then I have had lengthy discussions where the person pulls up anything from the web to prove their point yet never once bothers to consider another viewpoint.

If I don't agree with someone's viewpoint it doesn't make them or me right or wrong, but I was taught to consider all viewpoints.

*

14:24 / 23.05.07

When all the genders involved finally stop fighting each other, then maybe people can grow up and move on.

Raniel, the problem is that this "fighting" has led to a power imbalance, and efforts to address that power imbalance has been reframed by people empowered by it as needless, childish fighting. I'm sure there's some needless, childish fighting going on on all sides as well, but as long as the power imbalance exists there's going to be a good reason for people oppressed by it to point out problems.

14:35 / 23.05.07

Quants, the types of occult/pagan orgs I see most actively challenging the witch=earthmoonmother wizzard=skysunfather are queer and trans friendly groups.

Elsewhere on here there was a mini discussion about non queer identifying people seeking access to these spaces and unsure of the welcome/etiquette they might run into.

Each group will differ and may have some open and some closed events but holy crap, get yer butt over and ask!

14:44 / 23.05.07

I'll stop fighting when people stop being sexist.

Any day now.

Any day.

14:53 / 23.05.07

x-post. queer and trans friendly groups

Well, you'd think in Brighton, LGBT capital of Britain, there'd be loads. I'm sure I'll find one any day now.

Any day.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:12 / 23.05.07

When all the genders involved finally stop fighting each other, then maybe people can grow up and move on. At the moment i see gender wars as doing nothing but reinforcing the various angles of the social scripts as they stand. Continually cycling over and going nowhere.

Care to unpack? Because right now I'm rather coming away with the impression that you think "the gender wars" are largely a matter of ideological dispute conducted on a purely theoretical level between roughly equally matched combatants. If this were the case then yeah, we could grow up and move on, great. But it's not theoretical. It's real.

The "gender wars" aren't between people who've chosen to selfapply pronoun A over pronoun B. They're between the people who think there's a right way to be male and a right way to be female and want to be able to treat anyone who doesn't fit into those categories as a subhuman freak with an option on subhuman freakitude for being 'female', and the people who recognise this as oppression and wish to resist it.

These aren't just nebulous ideas, this is stuff that directly affects the real lives of real people. People get turned down for jobs they deserve, get denied healthcare they need, get their kids taken off them, get beaten, get murdered. Magic also is not just a nebulous idea; it's real force for change that offers a way for people to empower themselves and resist the structures around them.

This is not a high-scool debate. It's life.

16:34 / 23.05.07

Well, you'd think in Brighton, LGBT capital of Britain, there'd be loads. I'm sure I'll find one any day now.

Well I can only say from my experience I had to go look and ask in places that particular community feels comfortable in. For me that was another state about a two hour drive, each way.

As much as a pain as it is to travel that distance I find it well worth the effort.

Unconditional Love

20:57 / 23.05.07

Your point is well taken, i was beginning to drift into the realm of purely abstracting what is a very real issue.

Apologies.

trouser the trouserian

07:38 / 24.05.07

Well, you'd think in Brighton, LGBT capital of Britain, there'd be loads. I'm sure I'll find one any day now.

Quants, my experience of the Brighton magical scene is limited - in fact the only people I know in Brighton are queerfolk. So yes, there are groups of queer-oriented pagans/magical folk active there - but whether or not they are seeking new faces from outside of their existing friendship networks is another matter.

Have you considered starting a group yourself?

15:25 / 24.05.07

whether or not they are seeking new faces from outside of their existing friendship networks is another matter.

I think one issue is that I'm not sure I've got much to bring to a group, and I feel a bit appropriate-y. Also shyness is a barrier of course, and unfamiliarity with the queer community/scene.

Have you considered starting a group yourself?

I'm thinking about it at the moment. I'm spurred on by the example of the poster The Invisible Voice Of Reason (prev. Black Cat Bone) in this thread. A group for anyone interested in the occult that's LGBT friendly is my ideal, having a pint and talking about magic. Getting the right people to come along is the hard part, and getting over my experiences of rubbish moots and groups I've encountered in the past.
Sorry, this is off topic- erm, my hypothetical moot would explicitly oppose sexism and unexamined gender stereotypes? Maybe I could kick it off with some talks on perceived gender roles in magic.

15:27 / 24.05.07

I think XK's advice is probably sound- thanks. I'll tap my queer contacts for information on what's about already.

*

15:44 / 24.05.07

I think it's a good idea to start one, Quants. And very often putting on the flier something welcoming to people of all genders, races, ethnicities, and sexual orientations will not only encourage the people you want to show up but discourage those who would be uncomfortable with those other weirdoes.

Once you've got people in a room together, it will be important for you to explain what your intentions were for starting the group and where you're coming from as a straight guy practitioner. It will be important for you not to be "the leader" just because you put the posters up, although facilitating discussion the first time will probably be necessary. Having everyone take turns facilitating would probably be a good way to do things.

*

15:44 / 24.05.07

Oh, or that.

15:59 / 24.05.07

Having everyone take turns facilitating would probably be a good way to do things.

I was thinking of conscripting some help, preferably f-id and/or queer. I desperately want to avoid cliquery too, which I've found a big obstacle in the past.

18:11 / 24.05.07

Yeah and do allow for shake down time. It may take a few moots for things to gel and to connect with your people. Usually I'm on the outer edge of these events and hear about them a few months after they've started up.

Also if you're going to put contact info on anything, get one that is anonymous so the annoying anti-people don't hassle you.

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