BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Sexism in magic

 
  

Page: (1)2345

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:57 / 16.03.06
This is a subject that has been touched upon fairly recently, in the Magic Without... Women? thread and also in Magical spaces and cultural signifiers but perhaps it would be beneficial to have a fresh look at the topic. This is obviously a complex area so I'm just going to throw a few talking points out there and we'll see what develops.

Firstly, there's a degree to which sexist attitudes have become ingrained at a very basic level, in the concepts which are presented as the foundation blocks of magic, specifically the idea of 'male' and 'female' as the active force and the passive vessel respectively. This feeds into the various roles ascribed to male and female magicians. Even in spaces where the female is valorised, this model can often persist unchallenged. All that happens is that supposedly feminine qualities are lauded over supposedly male ones.

Then there are the more recent, less easily-defined issues relating to concepts of magic as a vehicle for personal freedom and the assumption by some that said freedom must necessarily include the freedom to dismiss, denigrate and abuse others on the grounds of gender, with an accompanying refusal to examine one's own attitudes; the concept of feminism and sexual equality as being (in some never adequately explored sense) counter-revolutionary. In magical spaces, this seems to manifest in a model of magic as something primarily done by men, with women playing a supporting role--or no role at all beyond being the unwitting target of a working.

Like I say this is a massive area of exploration, so I'm going to leave it here for now. Thoughts?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:44 / 16.03.06
I think some of the worst offenders here, Muppet Warrior included, are the people who take a literal reading of the Thelemic/Crowley idea of "The Beast" and "Babalon" / "Scarlet Woman".

Rather than trying to understand what's going on there from an... alchemical perspective... Or grasp any of the mysteries that might be lurking about in the background of those ideas. There is a tendency instead for fuck-witted, male, would-be conjurors to identify with the "Beast" image - which in most cases is just a flimsy excuse for questionable behaviour towards other people under the auspices of being, "like, y'know, a beast!" Whilst simultaneously projecting a host of extremely questionable, totally subjective wish-fulfillment fantasies onto the female gender/sexuality under the auspices of the highly loaded "Scarlet Woman" role. A grisly, unpleasant combination of delusions...
 
 
trouser the trouserian
13:01 / 16.03.06
Nothing much to say at the moment, apart from recalling the Gender-specific magick thread wherein the whole notion of 'male' and 'female' energies was examined.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:21 / 16.03.06
It seems to me that their are many traditions that are sexist in there approach to spiritual practice.

Id be intrested to see studies on how male and masculine spiritual identity roles create negative roles for men in relation to themselves. Especially with regard to behavioural expectation in relation to male biological function, metaphysical castration of sexuality and insensitivity to there own bodies.

(traditional martial arts activities come to mind, that can (but not always) armour certain male warrior type identities over male sensitivities)

Also how spiritual father roles as part of psychology effect a sons relationship to there father figure and how perhaps they could also damage that relationship through the son seeking a perfect almost god like expectation from there father, rather than acknowledging a human being.

To be a man or a women carries with it the connotations of thousands of years exsistence, both equally carrying both negative and positive archtypes, rolemodels and identity. With regards to that would it be useful to identify masculine and feminine sterotypes from different traditions and how they can result, if adopted, in sexist behaviour towards women and men.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:55 / 16.03.06
For example the idea of the male monk with regards to attitudes towards the feminine and attitudes towards self. (perhaps)
 
 
LVX23
06:15 / 17.03.06
The male monk ideal is in some ways a reflection of animal behavior. Typically the male mammal is instinctively driven to copulate with the female. In the pious mind this is interpreted as an uncontrollable and lustful drive. Thus, women were regarded as harlots and temptresses because they caused men to have such beastial feelings that got in the way of communion with their god, the arch-father (or at least caused them to lose their wits and descend into behaviors more often ascribed to the lowly apes).

Otherwise, wrt this thread, I'd echo Gypsy and suggest that a lot of people get hung up on their own shallow impressions of what are really far deeper primordial archetypes. It's usually much easier to bend a magickal system to fit one's will than it is to bend one's will to reflect the system.
 
 
rising and revolving
13:03 / 17.03.06
As pretty much everyone has pointed out, it's the massive gulf betwixt engaging with a feminine mystery and engaging with actual real live women (and men, and people who identify at every end of the scale betwixt, beyond, and between). Out friend DEDI has ably demonstrated where this can go catastrophically wrong.

Then we come across to the nature of various branches of tradition, especially in the west. Given how much of the WMT draws it's line form Masonry, it's no real surprise that those branches have an ingrained reflexive (and rarely self reflective) sexism at their core.

Witchcraft on the other hand, despite it's origins in similar places, seems to oft end up with a nasty anti-male current running through it. Certainly growing up amongst Wiccans of various stripes there was a very reactionary element to a lot of the viewing of men - both in actuality and archetypically.

Is it possible to retain the concepts of gender/polarity/masculine/feminine within magic without letting them turn into active sexism? Are these concepts no longer useful and should they be abolished entirely?

They're so fundamental to my application/understanding of practical Qbl, that I'm not sure how I'd go about doing away with them ... but that doesn't mean I'm not willing to consider the hows. Certainly, I'm *very* open to the ways this effects my deals and perceptions of Men and Women - and ways that can improve.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
19:31 / 18.03.06
Is it possible to retain the concepts of gender/polarity/masculine/feminine within magic without letting them turn into active sexism?

Please call 'bullshit' if I speak it, but I think there is rampant confusion between masculine/feminine energy, and male/female people. By this I mean that I can imagine that a god might be completely masculine, dripping with martial/explorer/go-out-and-fuck-everyone-while-shaped-as-a-swan energy... but NO male person has only that flavor of energy, no matter how often they profess 'I'm not gay or nothin'. There is in fact no reason that a male person expresses even mostly masculine energy, or that a female person need express mostly feminine energy.

I had this dumb-but-weirdly-attractive idea about genital terms as insults. By calling someone a 'dick' you are saying that this person has an excess of untempered aggressive masculine energy; by calling someone a 'pussy' you are saying that this person has an excess of feminine receptivity. Thus calling a man a 'pussy' is not disparagement by suggesting that he is female, and thus inferior; it is only insulting his ability to properly moderate his yin-yang ratio. (This is, of course, nonsense. But nonsense I wish were true.)

Whoa, tangent. My point is, I claim that misandry and misogyny in magick arises from the confusion of entities (which might have actual, completely gendered polarities) with people (which never do).
 
 
*
01:24 / 19.03.06
I tend to call foul on the whole "masculine/feminine" energy polarity anyway. This is not to say that the concepts of yin and yang have not been useful to me— I studied acupuncture for years, and it's hard to get away from— but I quickly had to learn that masculinity and femininity were more or les irrelevant to yin and yang. It has enhanced my understanding of these two flavors of energy significantly to divorce them from societal judgments about gender.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:04 / 19.03.06
Isnt the problem in that example that identity politics is being applied to accupuncture, traditional chinese accupunture would have no problems but westrners who are clued up around identity and gender issues will, its the perceptual baggage of the observer/practioner that creates the associations from living in a gender aware western social environment.

The next step, which i am sure you wouldnt take, but some people will is that traditional chinese culture should become better educated and employ modern western social values to its culture.

Some of this is understanding masculine and feminine in the context of how they relate to traditions and cultures, and not only in the overt gender wars of the west.

In fact why should a spiritual/magical tradition be subject to the precepts of western identity politics at all? Then like religous institutuions this opens up magical/spiritual traditions to be used as political tools. (no matter how marginal the politics)

politicising a practice in anyway could be seen as a first step to corrupting what is spiritual in that practice, not a popular opinion. Certain western magical traditions and non traditions carry the imbedded politics of those involved and there percieved founders so to speak, so a certain kind of political bias is already inherant in the practice. If identified with this can colour how one relates to other traditions, if this is always the point of return.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:05 / 19.03.06
Apologies i misread your post
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:13 / 22.03.06
Mordant

Then there are the more recent, less easily-defined issues relating to concepts of magic as a vehicle for personal freedom and the assumption by some that said freedom must necessarily include the freedom to dismiss, denigrate and abuse others on the grounds of gender, with an accompanying refusal to examine one's own attitudes; the concept of feminism and sexual equality as being (in some never adequately explored sense) counter-revolutionary.

I think one of the difficulties here is that of establishing the relationship between an individuals' attitudes and their avowed spiritual beliefs - i.e. how far are existing stereotypes & prejudices reinforced and reflected by an individuals' occult beliefs, and how much do those beliefs shape an individuals' attitudes?

What's interesting about Barbelith in this respect, is that attitudes towards sexism are seen as important to magical discourse - whereas in other occult fora they may not be to the same extent - or may be placed at the 'periphery' (i.e. a concern of 'minorities' who can be easily dismissed or marginalised).

Some social psychologists make a distinction between 'Hostile' sexism (expression of antipathy towards women) and 'Benevolent' sexism - statements which appear to be positive, yet preserve attitudes wherein women remain subordinated.
 
 
Woodsurfer
11:05 / 22.03.06
The only thing I can draw on is personal experience and this is likely to be colored by being male in a society that has been patriarchal from time out of mind. That said . . .

In the tradition my spouse and I are members of, the only manifestation of male and female roles (at least, as identified in our charter) are those of High Priest and High Priestess -- they must be male and female respectively. This is a bit curious in that the founders of the tradition were largely gay and lesbian and there remain a significant percentage of gay, lesbian and bi folks to this day. I can only conclude from this that the founders, drawing from both Wicca and Western Magick, felt that actual gender polarity rather than masculine/feminine energies were required in these roles.

So then, it comes down to what this looks like "on the ground", that is, our socio-political structure and magickal practices:

At the moment, the "big guns" (elders and leaders) in the organization are mostly men, a core of people who have been around for 20+ years and have risen to 3rd and 4th degree. Most of the covens, on the other hand, are dominated by women (ours has ten women and three men) and it is damned hard to fill the HP roles. I am filling in as HP though I'm only a 1st degree initiate and one coven has been running for years with out and HP at all. When we do rituals that involve aspecting god-forms, women almost invariable aspect Goddesses and men aspect Gods though there have been times when it was necessary to switch because nobody with the requisite skill was available for the role.

In the main, I would have to conclude that there is no significant sexism at play in our organization but just because it's been raised, I think I'll ask around to see how others perceive it.
 
 
Ticker
17:23 / 09.08.06
*bump*
 
 
illmatic
07:45 / 10.08.06
The Temple seems quite lively at the moment so I thought this thread could do with some revival. I was reminded of it by the Policy thread “Moderating The Temple”. I’m not going to cut and paste the comments there as I don’t wish for it to appear that I’m directing the discussion at the particular posters involved in that thread.

Haus posed an interesting question though. Are their certain practices which are read as more “male” and perhaps taken more seriously as a result? He used the example of the Lesser Banner Ritual of the Pentagram* with all its pomp and circumstance. I’m sure we can think of many more under the git ‘ard magick banner.

Some practices we might read as “female” would be passive trance mediumship (we’re going into the whole trope here of female = passive, male = active)as well as folk “craft” traditions, which are often much more associated with female practioners. Also, in considering these questions we have to consider the institutions that support them be they on hand all boys clubs or monasteries versus the “village”/hearth, to put things very crudely. Obviously, I’m interested in examples that fly in the face of this as well.

The Crowley thread also seems relevant to me here as he’s the ultimate example of the macho magician (one who appears to have used a lot of the women in his life as passive mediums, often regardless of the impact on them, it would seem).

So, for an initial question – is there anything in this idea of gendered readings at all? If so, how much do people think these sort of readings affect their interactions with, and attraction to practices?

*Final note – I’m not sure to what degree we can still present the Golden Dawn tradition as male though. There seems to be some scholarship emerging on the importance of women in the crafting of all the GD stuff – Moina Mathers, Annie Horinmann, Florence Farr and others.
 
 
Ticker
12:34 / 10.08.06
On the whole Art vs Craft issue I often find people break them up into perceived opposites like intellectual/manual, thinking/doing, High/low, luxury/necessity, pretentious/genuine, discipline/intuition, and evolved/primitive.

Are there gender values floating around in this? I think so but I perceive them as false projections rather than absolute truths. Women aren't just out picking herbs for birthin' babies while the men make deals with Archangels for business take overs.

What I find ludicrous is the idea that Crafts don't involve discipline or intellectual contemplation or Arts intuition and manual effort.

"art, therefore, is craft that advances our culture."

Here we get to the evolved/primitive pairing where change is valued as better than sustaining and this is projected onto the (IMO) misconception that Craft is not a source of innovation.
 
 
Ticker
17:23 / 10.08.06
Not that this is about blatant sexism but I was poking around 'teh interweb and found a quiz thingie that had this as an either/or question:

For Magic, I Use Focused Will
For Magic, I Use My Inner Calling

Is this a pairing that is relative to Art vs Craft masculine vs. feminine?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:38 / 11.08.06
GH:

I just found this article: Sexism in Crowley which may be of interest.

re: gendering passive trance mediumship as 'female'

Alex Owen, in her book The Darkened Room (which examines the rise of the Spiritualist movement in the 19th century) argues that women were considered at that time to be innately predisposed towards mediumship due to their "feminine virtues" (one of which was passivity). Yet, she says, women as mediums not only reinforced the Victorian stereotypes of femininity, it also challenged them, insofar as women mediums became "voices of authority". She also looks at class issues, discussing one particular case in a middle-class household where the female medium was a servant. Part of Owen's argument is that women played a central role in the early Spiritualist movement as mediums, healers and pioneers, yet unlike their male counterparts, they were less prone to writing up their experiences for public consumption and becoming 'spokespersons' for spiritualist causes. Owen also discusses how women mediums were dismissed by the burgeoning medical establishment as suffering from hysteria (she discusses the case of a middle-class woman who was incarcerated in various asylums for over a decade on the basis of her practice of automatic writing). Early psychologists such as Janet and Hartmann described mediumship as indicative of hysteria or multiple personalities, yet it was the investigation of mediumship which spurred Frederick Myers to form his theory of the "subliminal mind."

Another element which winds into the passive trance notion is the Darwinian idea of "primitive religion" as expounded by early anthroplogists such as Edward Tylor, coupled with the orientalist gendering of cultures such as India and Africa as 'female'.

Blavatsky also uses the "passivity" argument in her criticism of mediumship, albeit for different reasons. In Isis Unveiled for example, she writes:

Mediumship is the opposite of adeptship; the medium is the passive instrument of foreign influences, the adept actively controls himself and all inferior potencies.

She portrays Spiritualism as necromancy, and makes a clear distinction between the higher powers central to the Theosophical entrprise, and the mere "shells" of Spiritualist communication. A view echoed by other 19th century magicians such as Emma Harding Britten and Anna Kingsford. This distinction between spiritualism and the "occult sciences" is probably what prejudiced later magicians such as Crowley against mediumship. From the 1870s onwards, occultists stress both the necessity for Will and self-control:

Thus we see how far apart the medium and the Adept are, for the latter, instead of being controlled, controls all forces with an iron will. He has, in truth, made Nature his "ally, pupil and servant.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:00 / 11.08.06
Thus we see how far apart the medium and the Adept are, for the latter, instead of being controlled, controls all forces with an iron will. He has, in truth, made Nature his "ally, pupil and servant.

That's fascinating stuff. I got lured into this discussion at Treadwells the other week about possession, and the giving over of yourself to something perceived as a "foreign influence" and it was interesting to see how this process - entirely natural and healthy to me - was viewed as such a pejorative by someone coming from a western framework where Will and self-control are the key issues. It's interesting to see where those ideas come from, and the gender issues that they are rooted in.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:23 / 11.08.06
Gypsy

I think there's also an interrelationship with the western notion of selfhood, which stresses individual autonomy and seperation - what Storolow calls the myth of "the isolated mind" - there's been some interesting work by scholars examining the difficulties of engaging with radically different notions of identity between different cultures which are inherent within religious and spiritual practices. Anne Klein, for example, proposes that some of the difficulties westerners find with the transposition of Buddhist concepts of identity is down to the fact that Buddhism originated in a culture where the sense of selfhood was quite different to the contemporary Western perspective - where self-identity is embedded within a complex net of social networks and the boundary between self and cosmos is much more fluid and permeable. Similar criticisms have been made of western attempts to interpret asian sexualities' wholly in terms of western categories - hence Shivananda Khan's now infamous quip that "there are no heterosexuals in India. Just married men and men who will get married."
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:32 / 11.08.06
Gypsy
Found this article on Haiti in which the author makes a perceptive point regarding possession:

Possession is greater than the moment when a god inhabits a person. It is an act of making the god become present-presentification through a human being-and it is a validation of the connection between this world and the next world, or between the community on earth and the gods. In Haitian vodou, possession is described as a horse (the human being) which is seized by a god and ridden; hence, the name of the movie, "Divine Horsemen"-but this is not to be taken as the god exerting dominance over the person; there is a type of equality in which each becomes the other because the loa cannot appear on earth without a person's body; the person who is possessed is playing a significant role in a collective and spiritual drama.

Mama Lola covers similar ground regarding the social embodiment of possession practice. Also PDF of article entitled: Ambiguities in Santeria Possession Trance:Challenges to the Unitary Self examining possession in Santeria and its relationship to notions of selfhood.
 
 
Ticker
13:02 / 11.08.06
Here's another perspective on the correlation of sexual receptivity and mediumship/horsing and some interesting points about how the cultural value system of penetration extends to those spiritual practices.

(note: the article is sexually explicit in nature)

Opening Up: Penetration as Psychic Yoga
 
 
Saturn's nod
11:17 / 12.08.06
This is a long post, apologies. I won't get it posted at all if I take the time right now to make it concise. I hope you can bear with me, and I will stay with 'done is better than good' in this instance.

The way I see it overvaluation of the ideas of will and self-control and opposition of mediumship and adepthood spring out of an outdated idea about what a human is. My model of human beings is we are very complex systems, so our conscious minds are not capable of holding more than a fraction of what is going on in us at one time. Tapping into the less conscious processing happening in us is valuable because if all parts of us are in communication, we can be more congruent, flexible, adaptable, as a whole system and more able to follow an intended course. The knowledge residing in the body can be engaged through many kinds of body practice, and the nonverbal creative mind also through many means: divination etc as well as e.g. doodling on a piece of paper with some colours. I believe it is efficient to have those processes running beneath consciousness, but that it's necessary to make space engage with them so the vectors of all parts have the same direction.

Which I guess leaves me agreeing with Blavatsky quoted above, except that I would problematize both 'control' and the idea that the unconscious mind is in any way 'inferior'. I know other more modern practioners also conceptualise & engage the unconscious mind as powerful creative force (e.g. to be specific I'm thinking of a meditation by Dave Lee) rather than an inferior one. I think it's important to note that Freud's descriptions of the existence of an unconscious mind (e.g. (1933)) were groundbreaking at the time he first wrote them, whereas we all have grown up >50 years after humans began to understand the self that way. I would say it's necessary to discipline the conscious and rational mind to the service of the greater Divine creative power that inhabits the 'whole' world and is experienced through the 'whole self': Joanna Macy's U.S. Buddhism is also going in this direction with an involvement of cybernetics & it's outgrowth in general systems theory, but I think a key point is that she is a westerner, building practice through western science as well as eastern conceptual material from Buddhism.

Hence I think mediumship vs adeptship is a ridiculous dichotomy. It's as crazy as pitting right brain against left brain. If I didn't work with science and computers, I might be doing maths or coding in my breaks instead to reach into my left brain more. As it is, I am using my left brain most of my day - sorting, categorising, analysing - hence my practice is a balance to that. Listening to the more wholistic levels of consciousness helps to keep the whole 'ecological self' on track. Trying to exert control via self-will is doomed, because top down control is a really inefficient way to process signals through a complex system. No-one could organise the signals to move a hand in writing on a completely conscious level - I have heard about this through both robotics and through the experience of a guy who has a rare nerve condition and has to operate his hands consciously - he and robots both can't cope with more than 3 digits at once, and yet as humans we continually use all five together through efficient essentially unconscious signal coupling.

I see a kind of self-as-embodied-creator model as most appropriate to western culture at this point in time. I see creativity as a building block of religious activity in Britain: many centuries in which arts of all kinds have been laboured for the glory of God: cathedrals as a collective endeavour of humans reaching into the sacred. That exercise of creativity as a gift, reflecting back the divine qualities, also I think builds up a self-as-creator. The more recent development I see over the past few centuries is for the self to be also understood as an embodied ecological organism thanks to the various streams of experimental science and then critical thinking e.g. academic feminism. Creativity I know is not seen as the basis of the sacred in every religious tradition, and even experiential mysticism is not taken for granted as foundational experience for practitioners e.g. in the article on Buddhist meditation that trouser linked to recently. But I see creativity, and the mysticism - participation in co-creation with a divine creative power - that it gives us access to as essential in the tradition I'm inhabiting here in Britain.

Grounding creative process in the body is important to me: ignoring the reality of the body is a way of splitting off from the creative intelligence working in us, and it's that which can lead into the sterile trap of over-control through small mind and into all the excesses of disconnection, from consumer addiction to nuclear weapons. Working with and in the body has the potential to lead us out into a larger self, as a creator in a creative community of beings, and hence towards some kind of sustainable life.

So, to be more explicit about where this links into sexism: I have a fairly conventional view of feminism I think: an analysis of power dynamics in nested hierarchies of oppression by race class and gender. Sexism harms all humans when it leads to undervaluation of useful modes of consciousness and communication. Overvaluing certain styles of communication means excluding certain people from discussions, and losing their contribution. Overvaluing certain modes of consciousness similarly cuts off some of the resources available to us: when the body is not given space to communicate, it is not available as an ally. The bodies of (white, educated) men are rendered invisible and unremarkable in sexist culture, but that serves badly because it can erase them from consciousness, or from being valued if the body is devalued by its association with feminine/nature/etc. I see that as an insult to all because so much useful information is lost, just as when the contributions of undervalued people are lost. In my worldview, we need everyone's creativity to navigate through this time of planetary crisis.

I think sexism acts unconsciously in discussions because it can be hidden behind discrimination on style basis - Dale Spender's work is particularly good at pinning down the mechanisms by which the contributions of women and people of colour get sifted out of teaching literature, often on justification of 'bad style'. She argues that 'bad style' can in fact be a catchall term for 'written as a woman writes'. I'm aware that I have the advantage of higher education and training in formal communication, so frequently I can if I chose fake a style that is less remarkable, more likely to pass into the 'unmarked category', in which it is less obvious that I chose to use and value parts of my mind which are unvalued in unexamined sexism.

Contributions made by women were undermined by the "narrative writing style" and were depicted to the courts as "irresponsible, capricious, and possible seditious as well" (Poovey 8). Misselden convinced the courts that the merchant-experts were superior to the women because the merchant-expert had the ability to "see" what the women’s narrative writings actually meant and could transcribe those writings into double-entry bookkeeping entries—which would be impersonal and free "from manipulation" (Poovey 10). This way, the women’s work was trivialized to the courts and made invisible by the merchant-experts. Gal says that "this ability to make others accept and enact one’s representation of the world is…a powerful aspect of symbolic domination," and that "authoritative linguistic practices are not simple forms; they also deliver or enact characteristic cultural definition of social life...(and that) they serve the interest of some groups better than others" (157). source: I think this illustrates the kind of selection processes that Spender and Lakoff amongst others have illuminated.

Spender, from transcript, about the way male/female right to define the world specifically differed when she did her PhD research:

PETER: What did you find? What, in conversation, does happen?

DALE: Men talk more. Men interrupt more. Men define the topic. Men correct women all the time. They say, "I think you'll find," which is a very polite way, or else, "You're wrong.
It's not like that." Which is all that stuff about men's view of the world is the legitimate one. Women's view is an aberration. I mean, it happens again and again. Sometimes when you're being interviewed even it happens.

PETER: I've hardly said a thing.

DALE: Right.

PETER: How did you figure it all out?

DALE: I'd go and tape women and men talking and then I'd say to them afterwards... Well, sometimes I did it without them knowing, which was, you know, you had to go and introduce yourself and say, "I've just taped you. There's a tape recorder in the pot plant next to you." Etc. Things like... Couldn't do it now - privacy laws. And then I'd say to them, "OK. You've just had this conversation. I haven't heard it, but do you think you had an equal share of the talk?" And again and again women would say, "Oh, yes. I had an equal share of the talk." You know, "I probably talked too much!" The women say. And the man would say, "Oh, yeah, she probably talked too much." And we'd sit there and listen to it, and the woman would have talked 20% of the time. And then you just have to come down to the idea that if women are supposed to be quiet then the minute you open your mouth then you've talked too much.


Here's Spender's essay 'Man Made Language', if you want a bit more and I'd also recommend her book 'Women of ideas' if you can get a copy. I can't find online the essay of hers I really wanted, 'The writing or the sex? Or why you don't have to read women's writing to know it's no good.' (New York: Pergamon Press, 1989.)

Also, I can't work out in writing this stuff whether it's excessively obvious. It is deep in my background: this kind of analysis was provided to me as a young teenager in some of the first courses I studied at the Quaker theology college, and has been important in building my confidence so I feel I have the right to think, to speak and write about my ways of seeing the world. It is hard to see whether I am restating what is excessively obvious, or whether I am introducing new and useful material into the conversation, so I hope you can give me some slack or at least constructive feedback there.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:48 / 12.08.06
Great post, Saturn's Nod. I'm off out the door so no time to respond to any of it right now, but interesting stuff.
 
 
Ticker
15:12 / 12.08.06
SN I think it's great thoughtful stuff on a complex issue.
I'm fascinated by the privilaged packaging of information.

I've experienced the personal impact of making statements that were heard because of my privilage in groups while other's were not. I've been very conscious of having to fight for that voice and in moments when it evaporates because of external values including among other things age bias.

I do think there is something kicking around in the collective connecting the more 'superstitious' and 'supernatural' with the unpredictability and fear of nature and the feminine (all of these being semi fluid constucts).

In general I see a lot of emphasis placed on mastery, control, results produced by magical work rather than on service, submission, and faith. Not that both groups aren't useful but the power dynamics of the greater culture are obviously defining some folk's goals in the occult/magical/spiritual realms.
 
 
haeresis
15:42 / 14.08.06
The 'art vs. craft' thing interests me because years ago, it was rare to see female magicians who weren't pagan/wiccan, CM was a very male-dominated sport. Fifteen years later, and it's all changed...I meet more male Wiccans and just about every CM I correspond with these days is female.

The real irony to me is that these polarised ideas do still seem to stick (after all, how many mages value their cup over their wand? ;-) but few seem to mind the admonition to 'make the male female' and vice versa.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:08 / 14.08.06
I think the idea of penetration has alot to do with the possession vs will, the idea that a spirit penetrates a persons self could be equated to being equivalent to the practitioner being penetrated themselves.

I think one of the most damaging roles placed on men is that of the protecter, it promotes the idea that others arent responsible for there well being and that men should sacrafice themselves for something greater, but worst of all sets a man up to guard against something other. To protect an enemy is required.

The notion of will restraint and control when seen from a male perspective, reinforce the idea that being out of control is an undesirable quality, displays of powerful emotion, unless anger or socially sanctioned laughter or remorse become viable. Other emotions somehow penetrate the social armour revealing the human being rather than the male front worn as a social disguise. It becomes a recipe for isolation if that disguise is not worn or if society is not accepting of males who are other than what is considered the social 'norm'.(this largely depends imo on where you live and your income, from what i have seen it is alot easier to be yourself in a city than say a shitty little north hampshire town in the uk).

The idea of spirit penetration alludes to the male magician being penetrated, allowing something into him, something other than himself being in control, with a society that in my estimation is still largely sexuality uneducated i can see how largely male heterosexual traditions could perpetuate these myths and of what benefit they would be to keeping an established status quo.
 
 
Ticker
18:55 / 14.08.06
The idea of spirit penetration alludes to the male magician being penetrated, allowing something into him, something other than himself being in control

I agree, there's an entire backlash to the societal norm of males being in control 24x7 and inpenetrable to anything other than their own ideas and Will. The degrading use of the receptive roles of males re enforces this sadly and I suspect it has furthered the devaluing of systems that are about taking in, being affected, and union. On the otherhand females exhibiting Will and 'penetrating' intellect are spurned for being 'bitches' and 'overly masculine'.

It's one thing to use years of training to reach union with the Divine and quite something else to just have it bust in on you. Fear of loss of self and being overcome by madness abound.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:26 / 15.08.06
The penetration metaphor is all very well, but it has - if you pardon the pun - bugger all to do with my actual experiences of possession. It doesn't feel like a "penetration" by some foreign influence at all when it happens. In Voodoo, you tend to get possessed most often by the Lwa who are closest to you, by your 'Master of the Head' principally: the Lwa whose horse you are - and sometimes some of the others that you have a lot to do with. There's already a serious intimate familiarity there. They are always with you. They are a such a fundamental part of your being that the lines between you and them can get a bit blurry at the best of times. In my experience of it, there are many levels of possession ranging from the full displacement from which you don't remember a thing, to the instances when they might suddenly step in to impart something or handle a situation, to a mild overshadowing where you can feel them riding and know that they are with you. Possession, of varying degrees, becomes such a natural fact of everyday life, that the whole "penetration of the self by something other" thing seems like a totally ridiculous, even fairly juvenile spin on it. It's just what happens when you hang out with Spirits. Anyone who worries about their "loss of self" ought to look long and hard at what they actually mean by "their self": what that entity appears to consist of and the parameters of its identity. The "self", or Gros Bon Ange in Haitian terminology, is the same collection of habits, behaviours and imprinted patterns that is similarly undermined by any meditation practice.
 
 
Saturn's nod
11:55 / 15.08.06
GL wrote:The "self", or Gros Bon Ange in Haitian terminology, is the same collection of habits, behaviours and imprinted patterns that is similarly undermined by any meditation practice.

Interesting, cos what I call the self is probably more like: the essential part of me: the part of me that links the divine creative reality to the particularity of this body/mind's circumstance.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:56 / 15.08.06
I am putting it forward as an idea as to why the conflict arises in the first place, not as an experience. some people would not even consider the idea of possession because they may actually percieve it as the idea of somehow being penetrated or invaded by that which is other, its not nessecarily how its experienced, but it can be, take for a reference point the churches idea of possession, this portryal is the most common in the western imagination and it seems to me the one that has been lumped in with the idea of mediumship.

The force that possesses is seen as demonic, alien and hostile something that is other than god the kind beneficient father, an extreme of an unsocially sanctioned emotion in many cases. Think for example the devils of loudun. I think that this has bearing in the times these dualitiys were created and to an extent today.

Women as mediums form a kind of priestess hood of there own and offer a direct conduit to that divine power, i think the clergy and any man like for instance crowley would consider that as a threat to the masculine and male institution that is considered god. Just as the growing popularity of wicca and witchcraft also represents a form of feminine power and politics that is in direct opposition to masculine god based traditions and institutions. (and imo so they should be)

Its my experience that these institutions are just as destructive towards femininty as they are masculinity. If you wish me to back that up i will write about my experiences of christianity from childhood to the present.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:24 / 15.08.06
Interesting, cos what I call the self is probably more like: the essential part of me: the part of me that links the divine creative reality to the particularity of this body/mind's circumstance.

In Haitian terms, that would probably be more like the Ti Bon Ange. The Gros Bon Ange is what is unseated by the Lwa during possession. (I'm not really doing the concepts justice here though, and don't want to take this off topic with a lengthy discussion of the dynamics of the soul in Vodou).
 
 
EvskiG
15:32 / 15.08.06
As I understand it, Hindu philosophy has something similar: a distinction between (i) the individual soul (the atman), which sometimes is equated with the divine (brahman) and (ii) the psychological self (the jiva), which is bound by the chains of ego, action, and illusion.

I believe that the Egyptians also had a roughly similar division between the ka and the ba.
 
 
Ticker
15:54 / 15.08.06
In my experience of it, there are many levels of possession ranging from the full displacement from which you don't remember a thing, to the instances when they might suddenly step in to impart something or handle a situation, to a mild overshadowing where you can feel them riding and know that they are with you. Possession, of varying degrees, becomes such a natural fact of everyday life, that the whole "penetration of the self by something other" thing seems like a totally ridiculous, even fairly juvenile spin on it. It's just what happens when you hang out with Spirits. Anyone who worries about their "loss of self" ought to look long and hard at what they actually mean by "their self": what that entity appears to consist of and the parameters of its identity.

It does come back to personal experience often. If the person being possesed does not have a context for the experience or a relationship with the Entity it can be a terror inducing conflict. Interaction with the Other has deconstructive effects, being dissolved, broken down, and rebuilt especially when the human experiencing it has very rigid perceptions. We need to honor those that experience this as a violent or uncomfortable experience and assist them in coming to terms with how it manifests in their life.

Not all Entities court Their horses, not all acts of possesion are at an adult level of a developed thoughtful magician/priest welcoming their Gods, not all who undergo it have a supporting community. Plenty are the unexpecting who have been taught they are experiencing mental abberation/ hysteria/ foolishness. Yet the Entity will still come in and that may very well feel like the loss of sanity and what our culture says is a loss of self.

I personally find the common sex act often ridiculously labeled 'penetration' because from my POV it's an enveloping exchange of equals. Yet I have compassion for people who are afraid of having another person enacting what they percieve as a dominant act upon them. Especially considering that we live in a culture that also projects this as an universal truth.
 
 
EmberLeo
00:48 / 16.08.06
GL -
It doesn't feel like a "penetration" by some foreign influence at all when it happens.

I've heard the penetration paralell used a lot in posessory discussions, and I kind of understand where they're going with that, but I don't entirely dissagree that the specific sexual act of penile penetration is more applicable than intimate sexual relations are in general.

There were two concepts about penetration that were at all specific that I thought were useful.

The first was a description of spiritual "ergi" or openness being compared to the moment in sex between thrusts when one has been penetrated, and will be penetrated again, but at the moment isn't - that emptiness, and urge to be... er... filled again. It's rather evocative. The flamboyantly gay man who used that description managed to embarass everyone in the room with it, but he got his point across. ;}

The second is more personal, but I think it's not actually a gendered question. I happen to be a heterosexual female, and I'm thinking about how penetration feels for me, emotionally, during sex with a man I'm very emotionally attached to vs. how I feel about the idea of penetration with somebody I'm not attached to. Not the act itself, per se, but the depth of intimacy or violation involved seems to be a reasonable paralell for me to how posession feels with a god or spirit I'm very close to vs. how it feels to get posessed against my will by a god I prefer not to work with.

I do hesitate to use the latter paralell because I haven't ever been physically sexually violated (thank the gods!) and therefore can't say for certain that it feels even remotely the same as involuntary posession felt. I don't want to minimize the significance of physical rape by comparing my experience to it, but I don't want to minimize my own experience by refusing to consider the comparison. That's just a useless can of worms, I think.

But I certainly DID feel like my Self had been horribly violated, and I'm still dealing with the repercussions of that. But in the exact same way there's nothing demeaning about my having sex with my lover just because I'm female, I don't see anything sexist about using that as a metaphor. I guess I assume penetrative sex is just as intimate to my lover as it is to me, so it doesn't really matter which end of the physical act one is on - it's the intimacy that matters, and forced intimacy of contact where voluntary intimacy of connection does not already exist feels like a violation. Gender has nothing to do with it.

In my experience of it, there are many levels of possession

That is my experience as well. Well, actually, I've never experienced "full" amnesiac posession. I'm not sure how I feel about it, which is probably why I haven't yet been able to let go to quite that degree. I have once managed to let go far enough for it to be a problem, and still didn't black out my memory, so I'm not sure what the heck it would take to get me out that far. I seem to cling to conciousness and memory further out than average, if my ability to remember dreams is any indication.

Possession, of varying degrees, becomes such a natural fact of everyday life, that the whole "penetration of the self by something other" thing seems like a totally ridiculous, even fairly juvenile spin on it. It's just what happens when you hang out with Spirits. Anyone who worries about their "loss of self" ought to look long and hard at what they actually mean by "their self"

Well, I am, so that's okay, but I don't see what's juvenile about it from an experiential perspective. I mean "penetration" is indeed a loaded word, but there's certainly a difference between me and Ghede or Freya or Odin, and it utterly weirds me out that I can't always tell where I end and Freyr begins (or more accurately, how the hell He got in here without my having to conciously open up to Him). Whether that's a masculine "penetration" to my feminine "ergi" or whatever is totally beside the point, though. I've seen goddesses do the same thing to men.

XK -

Not all Entities court Their horses, not all acts of possesion are at an adult level of a developed thoughtful magician/priest welcoming their Gods, not all who undergo it have a supporting community

Not all gods wait for that level of welcome...

Though I did have community support and all, so the damage is minimal, "merely" emotional, philosophical, however deep.

I personally find the common sex act often ridiculously labeled penetration' because from my POV it's an enveloping exchange of equals

Exactly. And both in that sense, for a positive posessory experience, and in the negative sense for a negative posessory experience, I find sex to be a reasonable, but not totally equivalent metaphor.

But sex can happen between any two or more genders, as posession can, in theory anyway, happen between any coporeal and non-coporeal being pair.

--Ember--
 
  

Page: (1)2345

 
  
Add Your Reply