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Sexism in magic

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
Ticker
16:10 / 09.04.07
For one, I can't see how Motherhood isn't an inherent aspect of being a woman, whether or not a woman decides to or is able to have children or not. To me, that smacks of intellectual dishonesty and denial on a massive scale. Forgive me if this comes across as asshole-ish, I truly don't mean to sound that way.

hey well is it also a part of an inherent aspect of being a man? Let's drop back to an example of two humans neither of whom have given birth or raised a child. Do either of these people have greater access to the Archetype of the Mother?

Can you also say that if someone looks into their personal toolkit and doesn't find an Archetype in the mix that that's somehow automatically denial?
 
 
electric monk
16:15 / 09.04.07
panthergod, if you feel you have something to add to the Epop discussion, please do it here. This thread needs to move away from the conduct of individual posters and back toward it's intended remit (thank you XK!).
 
 
Ticker
16:18 / 09.04.07
sorry for the choppy posting style but it's sort of where I'm at right now.

I like how alot of the time when people who consider themselves to be 'tolerant' and 'open minded' encounter someone with whom they deeply disagree, they try to stifle that voice at the first opportunity.

Frankly, much of what Epop said makes sense, from a surface standpoint, his problem is that he lacks nuance in alowwing the legitimacy of other expereinces, and comes across as too aggressive, arrogant and unlikable in approach for his legitimate arguments to be objectively considered by those put off by his net 'personality'.


I agree with you that Epop problem is his posting style rather than the topics and viewpoints he would like us to examine. However not be willing to respect other people's requests to adjust that language is a barrier I have no idea how to get around.
I personally ground my dislike of his posting style in his lack of third party scientific articles/links and yet he maintains his condescending tonality.

I believe, and please point out to me if I have failed in this, that I have constantly been asking Epop and anyone else who would like to explore gender roles to do so with me in a thread appropriate to the topic using the language the community is comfortable with. This includes using verifible fact rather than simply stated opinion as fact.

I'm interested in talking with people I disagree with in a polite civil manner so I may learn from them when possible and to educate them when I can. However Epop is not listening to my requests or accepting my invitations.

Can you make any suggestions, panthergod?
 
 
Ticker
16:29 / 09.04.07
Something I'm trying to express is this, all humans as an unknown collection of people we do not know personally should in our perception of them be granted every potential manifestation.

This means to me that non specific examples of individuals not grounded in verifiable facts are useless to make assumptions about.

I can speak of the Archetype of Man (sourced from my culture) but this does not mean I can speak about a specific man with authority.

I can speak of the Archetype of Woman (sourced from my culture) but this does not mean I can speak about a specific woman with authority.

I can speak of the Archetype of the Third (sourced from my culture) but this does not mean I can speak about a specific person with authority.

For someone to say 'all women carry the Archetype of Mother' is to ignore the voices of women who say they do not. To say 'no men carry the Archetype of the Mother' is to deny the men who say they do. To say 'only those who conform to our image of this construct we call woman/man/person are women/men/people' is to exclude all others.

This to me is more harmful than helpful and I urge you to consider who you are shutting out when you insist there is only one way of something to be.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:17 / 10.04.07
I'd like to re-iterate this: Then there are the more recent, less easily-defined issues relating to concepts of magic as a vehicle for personal freedom and the assumption by some that said freedom must necessarily include the freedom to dismiss, denigrate and abuse others on the grounds of gender, with an accompanying refusal to examine one's own attitudes; the concept of feminism and sexual equality as being (in some never adequately explored sense) counter-revolutionary, and I'd like to ask how the fuck--how the FUCK!--this has become the Gold Standard for so many people. Try and challenge it and you're politically correct, you're holding everyone back, you're spoiling the fun.

How in the name of all that's holy can you call yourself a magician if you are so weak and so fragile that you need to cling to this kind of rubbish, if you need to oppress in the tritest, most hackneyed terms? How can you free yourself if you are willingly embracing your enslavement to bigotry?

What the fuck, people, what the fuck?
 
 
Ticker
14:34 / 10.04.07
I think (and I'm using *think* very purposefully) many people are confusing Archetypes, symbols, and myths with actual living human beings. There's an entire layer of abstraction between thinking mythically/symbolically and then applying that thinking literally.

So you ask how do these people who have chosen self exploration and self actualization not confront and re examine these beliefs, or worse to a larger degree, what causes them to hold these prejudices as validated and confirmed by their studies?

This ties in with the sexism in religion thread as well but it has to do with cosmologies. IMO a magician forms a model of their reality and then through use of their tool set manipulates it. It's a sympathetic relationship between the model they carry in their perceptions and the reality they experience. Very few people can function when the entire model and structure of their cosomology, their perception of reality, is dissasembled. Most of us need to do this in small pieces taking out what we were given as children and replacing the bits with our chosen adult perceptions. Often we find pieces are interlocking and taking one out causes an entire section to collapse. This is a very unpleasant and often frightening experience.

There are some pieces that when we select them to put into our perception validate a piece that's already in there, or has a bit tacked on but we percieve it as an entirely new piece and we don't remove the chaf.

Often unless the perception is actively challenged we're satisfied that we already changed that chunk out. We need to be shown that more work remains.

I know I have a metric shit ton of unchallenged beliefs floating about but until I can see them in play it's very difficult for me work with them. An example I can give from experience is my recent work with Aikido as a martial art and a form of meditation. It has challenged a set of beliefs I held about my capabilities and a hidden set of how I perceived other people. By being put into regular contact with people I normally wouldn't associate with in a form of engagement I haven't experienced before, all kinds of assumptions and prejudices are being revealed. Yet what might have happened if I had taken a very different form of martial art that instead of challenging my assumptions reinforced them?
 
 
betty woo
14:23 / 13.04.07
XK: nicely put. I think a lot of the anti-PC response comes from an unwillingness to acknowledge that there is still this unpacking work which remains – sort of "I’ve already crossed the Abyss once, what do you mean I’ve got to do it again?" There’s also the challenge that, being constructed by the social framework around us, gender stereotypes are among the easiest to leave unchallenged, since we’re consistently presented with apparent evidence that supports those constructs. It is uncomfortable, which is why it’s unsurprising (although frustrating) to me that so many people respond with hostility and shouty-arguments when the topic comes up.

There was a comment by Talks to Strangers on the Ultraculture thread that I thought would be more on-topic to address here:

my impression (which I'm happy to have corrected) is that there are fewer female practitioners and thus far fewer women writing. What's stopping us? Why is it so hard to crawl out from the strangling influence of the fluffy shit most of us started out on?

For me, the answer ties partially into sexism - not in occult theory, but as it exists in many occult organizations. My path as a solitary practitioner was largely shaped by my inability to find a working group that wasn’t either a/ fluffy or b/ staggeringly male-biased. Unlike my male counterparts, signing up with the Freemasons wasn’t an option, and my experiences with most other groups had a decidedly lecherous, “we should talk about sex magic now” tone. Being welcomed into a magical group because you’re a potential Scarlet Witch isn’t the same as being welcomed in as an equal, and I tend to think that anyone who can’t distinguish between the two experiences isn’t much shakes as a magician, and thus not the sort of teacher I want to connect with.

Opting to work solo was my solution, but most of the women I know chose to go the wicca-pagan route instead, as a means of getting the benefits of a group practice while minimizing the gender-based hassles. The general perception that wicca = fluffy seems to work to their advantage by creating a space which is less likely to be male-dominated, but which doesn’t give them much incentive to branch out once they've made good progress under that paradigm.

This is why the evolutionary / biology concepts of gender tend to fall flat for me: they rarely unpack the cultural aspects of why individuals may make similar choices en masse, or even acknowledge that human behavior is a complicated mix of genetic and memetic influences. Women tend towards the fluffy, I suspect, because it’s a less frustrating option than inserting yourself into an environment that is consistently hostile and/or dismissive, not because they’re uninterested in correspondence charts and alchemical experimentation because of teh woooomb.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:44 / 16.04.07
Thanks for that, betty (good to see you BTW). Basically my experience too, yeah; little patience for fluff, and none at all for being a projection screen for anyone else's Scarlet Woman fantasies. Hence the solitary.

It's all rather wearing.
 
 
This Sunday
09:52 / 16.04.07
I really don't get the mentality behind the idea that men can embrace or experience all sorts of varieties of magick or of practice, position, et cet. and yet women are supposed to be locked into virgins, earth mothers, or delve into special whore powers. What sort of brain works that up in the first place? Seriously.

One thing I like with some of Crowley's stuff is that he's very clear that it's just suggestions. He's not knocking on (all the time) as though it were the law handed down and now we must all capitulate.

That capitulation, the intense adherence to schools we know to be flawwed or awkward or otherwise almost useless, seems to me the major drawback of most eastern hemisphere-derived magick.

I'd pin it straight onto men, but there are clearly too many women who appear to believe wholeheartedly that these virgin/whore maidenmothercrone tools are the only ones they can work with. Which, if you're going to be strictly biological about everything, sure, why not? Adhere yourself to what appears to be biological truth or necessity, even if other people aren't seeing it. But as soon as a nonbiologic aspect is accepted, you can't even rely on a biologic appearance or lie.

No school should be one you stay in and obey forever. Even many good and strictured holy-types from a variety (Christian, Muslim, Shintoist or Hebrew or Buddhist, et al) have demonstrated that. Schools break apart, or practitioners begin to develop their own interpretations or reexaminations... and that's what ends up killing a lot of these group areas for me, especially when it comes down to gender/sex. Which, it often does. And is always absurd looking from outside.

I can't hold with a woman being in charge because she's got womanly energies any more than I can stand up and be counted when they're looking for people to join the new masculine-powered man-led cult of XY. But if you try to go pray or do anything emotional, psychological, metaphysical, or otherwise about examination of not-entirely-physical stuff, that's where it usually breaks down.

And you can stand there and watch entire groups of nominally intelligent people fall right into it. Of course women are caretaking and bound-to-the-dirt! Because they give birth. Even the ones who don't. and Men are warlike and intense and mechanical. Because they've got stuff hanging! Between their legs! as though as soon as someone says it, people are able to sublimate their own experiences or the things they know about other people in their lives suddenly don't count because someone's made this statement.

It's like hard-and-fast assertions of the nature of God and the World, or assertions about blanket astrology limited to a handful of types which everyone's got to fit. People will make someone fit X because they think they were born under it, and when they weren't, it's not that the system of labelling is flawwed, it's that the person somehow broke the rules by not falling into that X category, or been honest about being in the Y or M category.

Am I the default guy? Sure, why not? I'm the only one I've ever been.

Am I the default Libra? After checking to make sure I'm a Libra... yeah, sure. Why not? But if I thought I was a Leo, like my brother? Or looked at myself as a monkey instead of a scales? Or a lizard-rain-house-knife thingy, looking at another map? Monkey or sixlizard? Choices, choices.

That's what the gender/sex-based stuff always ends up looking like to me. And I know, when you have a map and the territory isn't fitting the map, we have a tendency to disregard the territory and recheck the map like it's definitely right and the world's gone funny, but in the end, the maps may just have flaws.

And I know most of us realize this. What worries me, is that so many people don't seem to. And I can't help but wonder why. Where the fundamental incapacity to realize this comes in.
 
 
Papess
11:07 / 16.04.07
...and yet women are supposed to be locked into virgins, earth mothers, or delve into special whore powers. What sort of brain works that up in the first place?

Yep. It sucks. Oh, and when women are too old for child-bearing, and too wrinkly for being a Scarlett Whore, well, there is always the Crone position to apply for. Maybe a little crazy, likes to eat children, you know the one....sometimes called a "hag".


Yay! Betty Woo!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:34 / 20.05.07
I've been thinking a lot about misandry in magic, and its prevelance. When I try to talk about the kinds of sexism I have experienced as FI and into teh majix, I'm often confronted with the spectre of the militant man-hating Goddess-worshipper.

I accept wholeheartedly that such people exist--I have met them and I have come across their writings, obviously. I've always been very careful to acknowledge the existance of misandry in magical discource and its impact on the people who find themselves exposed to it. However...

I'm in the process of slinging together some thoughts on the various -isms present in a lot of magical writing both fringe and mainstream, and I was looking for some juicy examples of misandry in magical writing to use in the section on sexism. And I found them, of course. But what I noticed was that I really had to do a bit of digging around to find them. It's out there, sure, ugly stuff that it is, but I just don't find myself stumbling across it in the same way I seem to stumble across anti-female bias all the goddamn time.

I also notice that I'm never criticised for pointing out misandry when I see it. Never, ever. I get nothing but praise and approval for registering and flagging an anti-male bias, whereas if I flag a similar anti-female bias the same thing doesn't happen. The most extreme reponse to flagging misogyny in magical writing is having such criticisms dismissed out of hand and then being attacked for raising the issue. But even if that doesn't happen and the complaint is acknowledged to be reasonable, I find that the offence often gets minimised, dismissed as a minor point when taking in contrast to the overall worth of a text.* Nobody has ever said to me: "Oh yes, the author's a complete manhater of course, but you should just ignore that--her techniques are so useful!"

In several cases, when I was able to track down a quote that was good and manhatey it came complete with a thorough debunk by at least one person, as if such writing is too dangerous to be allowed out in the wild and must be served up pre-disembowelled for your protection.

I get that I may be working from a skewed sample here because my circle of the magical Venn diagram has a limited overlap with the areas where misandry is likely to rear its ugly head. (That in itself could lead off onto a tangent--how come my kind of magic is supposed to be bloke's magic anyway?--but I digress.) So I guess what I'm saying is, I'd be interested in hearing from people who have been subjected to misandry in a big way and how it's impacted on them.


*In one extreme case the text in question was a PDF plastered with soft-porn images of women and most of the techniques described ways of getting laydeez to touch the reader's winkle, the concept of a female reader apparently being a new one to the author. The person recommending it honestly meant no offence and was genuinely surprised at being pulled up. While it is certainly true that an inventive person could take the techniques therein for the getting of ladysex and retool them for broader applications, said inventive person would first have to not mind wading through page after page of writing that conceptualised those techniques as something whose primary purpose was to pick up women in bars, shaft them and dispose of them afterwards, and herself as something to be picked up in a bar, shafted, and disposed of afterwards. Which, you know, rather not.
 
 
This Sunday
13:59 / 20.05.07
I think part of it depends on where your sensitivities in reading/intake are set. I find a considerable amount of material, magick and otherwise, that is undeniable anti-female sexism, to also be anti-male, if simply for the presumptions it makes about its hypothetical male audience. That 'extreme case' PDF TTS mentions being a good example, or half a thousand 'they're your children, Crowley' moments involving someone churning on and on about unleashing the sacred beast in conjunction with as many scarlet women as possible befor they get all old and wrinkly and turn evil.

In Native American magicky circles it tends to seem more predominant to me, at least, in certain geographical areas. On the Plains, and a lot west of the Miss. I have a hard time dealing with a number of groups, whose individual members I sometimes can remain sociable with, because when it comes down to a spirituality, many of the men happily launch to how potent and protective they are to those who suffer bouts of a sick time, dirty evil wimmenz bleeding nasty noise, and many of the women get fired up about woman's inherent deeper connection to earth and life and hope, and man's violent warlike possessiveness.

The changes of the past few decades in the 'white buffalo woman' story/stories, and the why of the death of one or both of the guys who first see her illustrates this well. It used to be that they see her as she's appeared as a woman, naked and alone, and one of the men's brain goes straight to rape, hence the punishment. It's now usually told as if they simply had a thought or impulse towards something erotic, not even necessarily sex but a dirty thought and immediately he's eaten by snakes. The women who used to die, similarly, in the story (for having jealousy-turn-violent thoughts) have been excised completely.

The changes are misandrist, and being told to little kids, is doing what all stories you get as a kid do, and steering the way you approach everything else in life. Especially a religious story, whether taken as history or parable.

I can't help but be distresed by that, especially in conjunction with a growing tendency with many Native communities towards holding gender-specific ceremonies or operations that are then broken because someone's decided person X is important enough or good enough they should qualify as a man or woman, despite their physical qualifiers or what they personally feel they are. I don't want to be 'nice enough' I qualify to sit in a women's sweat. If we pull transexuality into the discussion, there's something to be considered, but who the heck has a right to make the call that woman X should be invited into a man's ceremony without consideration of whether she IDs as a man or not? The presumption, on either end, approaches misandry and/or misogyny.

I'm actually seeing it more with women's ceremonies. The apparent assumption being, being nice or functionally polite or whatever, somehow slides men out of the man club and into the woman club and that has to be misandry, ostensibly well-meaning or not. It's the gendering equivalent of complimenting with 'that's very white of you' which you can still hear nonwhite (and white people, for that matter) use, un-sarcastically.

It's not everyone in these communities certainly, but the vitriol makes it hard to operate alongside people who really are caught up in it, and I do note a progression towards these men believing quite a bit of these misogynistic myths but learning to keep quieter about it in mixed company, whereas the women seem to believe they shouldn't have to keep it under hat and anyone calling them on it, male or female, is mentally subnormal or culturally warped and trying to shut women up. Believing and keeping quiet for social reasons is still unhealthy and breeding another level of attack/opression, but being loud about it can't help, either.

There's hardly a worse feeling than hearing a bigot divulge as soon as they think they're in agreeing company, but put on a polite face otherwise.
 
 
This Sunday
14:05 / 20.05.07
I should clarify that it 'seems more predominant' to me, because I'm not really paying as much attention to everybody else's magick/religion/spirituality stuff. So the scale's definitely weighted unfairly.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:58 / 20.05.07
DN/DD, thanks for sharing your insights and experiences. Your perspective is appreciated.

I find a considerable amount of material, magick and otherwise, that is undeniable anti-female sexism, to also be anti-male, if simply for the presumptions it makes about its hypothetical male audience.

Well yeah but. I mean it's obviously true that the kind of misogyny I've written about above has as its flipside a certain kind of misandry, in that it makes assumptions about the supposedly het male reader of the text which are hugely disrespectful to any het males who aren't, well, fucking wankers. I'd also agree that this is a good chunk of What Is Wrong With Misogyny--the fact that it damages men as well as women.

However I'd suggest that the message of such a piece is less damaging and easier to brush off if you actually are a heterosexual male, since it essentially positions you in a place of power: the narrative is framed around you as the active agent. The offended reader in this case is refusing to participate in an abuse of power.

If you're female and coming to the text, the relationship is a bit different. You're not being offered anything to accept or refuse. You're not an active participant in the narrative at all. All you are is the subject, the target of the work. If it was just one or two idiot How To Get More Chicks PDFs it would hardly matter, but this kind of crap seems so horribly ingrained. More subtle versions of the same narrative permeate the mainstream, and this has an effect on the people who read the books. The commercially-available texts that I cut my magical teeth on as a tiny spooky 12-year-old were riddled with sexim; I wish I could say that I had the integrity to resist the message, but in the absence of more positive input I internalised a lot of it.
 
 
This Sunday
15:33 / 20.05.07
Point(s) taken, definitely, but I would quibble, it only puts you in that point of power if you can fulfill the presumed expectations. Otherwise it really is damaging, especially if some guy's trying to sort out place in the world or personal 'how am I meant to be?' stuff. And by couching/excusing what may be considered negative or insidious traits as simply being male (which is how most of those 'seduce hawt virginal drunk chicks as spiritual fulfillment' tracts go) or a high calling for real men... well, I don't know that it's less damaging unless you assume men don't look at these things and presume if they don't live up, they're failing or not scoring right on the gender test of life (or Bornstein's); seen to many who react with anxiety just in that way.

I think a lot of the dickishness is put on, and wrapped around the fact I can call it 'dickishness', I guess.

None of which means women aren't getting a bad time of it in these situations, either, and in some situations, by far the worse time. It shouldn't ever have to be an either/or.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:58 / 20.05.07
it only puts you in that point of power if you can fulfill the presumed expectations ... I don't know that it's less damaging unless you assume men don't look at these things and presume if they don't live up, they're failing or not scoring right on the gender test of life

I think that's certainly an issue, since such an author is not only creating a particularly rigid, limiting model of manhood as well as framing his own shortcomings as artifacts of his maleness ("I can't help it, testosterone made me do it, something about evolutionary psychology, oh look a blimp"). Thus if a man does not construct his maleness along the lines assumed by the author he's automatically wrongfooted by the text.

However I would still suggest that the power imbalance is still there, because we're still being presented with the figure of the active magician as male and the subject of the working as female. Even if your identity doesn't mesh with the model created by the author, that's still less damaging than being written out of the active part of the narrative altogether.

(I guess I keep coming back to this because I regard magic as potentially a great equaliser, a way of redressing power imbalances, and so concepts of magic that not only shore up those imbalances but which come from a place where they are just, fair and natural really get on my fucking nerves. I've got stuff to say about the way a lot of magical discourse comes from and reinforces various forms of power imbalance, especially classism, but I think I'm going to need a bigger boat...)
 
 
This Sunday
16:16 / 20.05.07
I think my issue was/is more with the framing than the content, per se. Going by the content (male does to female) versus the frame (this is prototype male engram and here is how it/you do prototypical male things to this prototypical female), I agree with you, that the imbalance comes off worse for women.

I have a very hard time separating a lot of social/racial/classist elements from sex/gender elements, I'm afraid. Even my astonishing ability to be totally crap at pulling off any kind of noble savagery feels as much a sexist expectaton as any other kind of -ism when it comes up. Or hearing people (more than once, and more than one person) stand up and tell someone like mixed-blood former Poet Laureate of California, Quincy Troupe that he doesn't sound 'old', 'black', or like a 'man.'


Magick really should be a route out of that nonsense. An equaliser. It should be the route out if you're treating everything as inherently magickal, which I have a tendency to do.
 
 
*
20:29 / 20.05.07
I find a considerable amount of material, magick and otherwise, that is undeniable anti-female sexism, to also be anti-male, if simply for the presumptions it makes about its hypothetical male audience.

Huh. Actually I was going to say that a lot of the misandry I've seen in magic is misogyny in disguise. i.e. The Great Mother Goddess Limited To Great Mother Goddessing narratives—it may locate the power of fertility/creation with women, yes, but it rests on the assumption that the only function of women is to be fertile. That is, it's roughly the same as the kinds of "feminism" that suggest that the Problem With Gender Relations Today is that women need to stick to women's stuff, and they would do that if we just better appreciated how important the women's stuff is.

Anyway, some people would interpret the Great Mother Goddess theogony as anti-male, because it locates the source of power over all creation with women (instead of with men). But its primary effect is to validate the notion that a woman's role is to make lots of babies, thus symbolizing the power of the Great Mother Goddess. If a woman in a Great Mother Goddess society (or who adheres to such as a minority faith) wants to do something else, like be a mighty hunter or a skilled flint knapper or a successful financial consultant, she is not just defying society, but the Great Mother Goddess Herself. And it's a problem that this mythology would first be seen as anti-male, because then the simplest solution is to set up the Great Father God as a counterpart, which may solve the anti-male problem but doesn't fix the problem of emphasizing that a woman's role is to make babies.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:47 / 20.05.07
Whew! Thank you, id. I was just coming back here to make exactly that point, and you've done it far more ably than I.
 
 
This Sunday
21:22 / 20.05.07
That's some smooth walking-through, id. And very true. Until we've worked things into a parthenogenic process, though, the single entity which is gendered and then a repository of all the creative or generative energy is a bit unbalanced.

I would go further and suggest that, rather than make it a dual-position, parental gods (ie, old, authoratative, fonts of generative energies) who haven't anything going for them outside being parents (eg, Mother Goddess; The Great Inseminator; Mary or Yahweh) are just a bit out of place with progress in the world. If only because they tend to be placed at the head of the table, as it were, and the most significant. It produces a cultural or personal atmosphere valuing reproduction over everything else, which is silly on all fronts, not the first being overpopulation. Excise or find new roles/levels for both, if it's to be a duality or shared position, but as the top wrung?

Outside of the parent-gods section, every other position seems open to either gender, really, and most cultures have at least one transsexual-type deity that can put on the right hat or mask and be another figure, of another gender. Depends on the cultural inclinations, I guess. And then down to the personal, if you're going to go for a do-it-yourself arrangement.

I don't know that I ever want to sit for a prolonged period to the either/or sensibility some people are able to use to excuse flaws in their beliefs or practices, or even those sitting nextdoor to their own. You have to, to a degree, just because the day ends and things take time, but too many changes in spiritual practices or worship I see in the flesh and air world, tend to be of a six of the one traded for half a dozen of the other, with both of them equally unappealing or oppressive to someone (and usually the same someone either way).
 
 
*
21:30 / 20.05.07
I'm sorry, DN, I think you might have missed my point. The Great Mother Goddess thing is just one example of the ways in which those few instances of misandry in magic(-oreligiouswhatever) are also, or primarily, misogyny in disguise. I'm not sure I understand your post in how it relates to the larger point.
 
 
This Sunday
21:40 / 20.05.07
I am, in fact, agreeing that it's misogyny is disguise. And that adding a male parallel does not fix the misogyny at all. The single-gendered generative force doesn't work very well, for either women or men, though, at least as a top-wrung figure/model/god - that where the going 'further' comes in. Also, I seem to've cut the middle out of my first paragraph, where I agree with you some more.
 
 
*
21:45 / 20.05.07
Okay, I was just having some trouble following you. Sorry. I'd better eat some food as hunger is making my brain slow.
 
 
Katherine
09:41 / 22.05.07
The biggest problem with some of this, regarding writing style from the male's point of view (ie the male magician in texts) is the fact that the author should be writing from their perspective and experience.

If the author is male and writing about something he does whether be a text of a ritual he carries out or his magical lifestyle then of course it will be one sided how can he write from a neutral or female viewpoint when he may never have that viewpoint or work from that view in the first place. So how should someone write so that it is considered more balanced?

Just something I am curious about, I am probably way off in the wilderness here though.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:06 / 22.05.07
I see what you're saying but I don't really think that's going to be a problem. I for one am not terribly bothered if a working is being described by a man or a woman; I care if it's a good solid bit of gear that I can replicate myself or learn from. I share ideas and experiences with male magicians all the time. The only way I can see a problem arising would be if the activity described was an act of gendered oppression, as in the PDF I mentioned above. It's not the male perspective that bothers me, it's the "default human = male (probably straight + white), everyone else = subhuman and fair game" perspective.

What magicians of any gender can do is to keep readers of a different gender in mind reader when they write. I write from an embodied-female perspective because never having lived as a male it's the only perspective I've got, but I try to keep things as general as possible. My hope is that anyone of average intelligence can benefit from what I've written.

(One thing I do like personally is the use of female or neuter pronouns, either as the default or just thrown in every so often. It's a pleasant nod of the head from any author: "yes, I know you're out there, and this is for you too." I understand that some people find this irritating though so YMMV.)
 
 
Quantum
12:42 / 22.05.07
One thing I do like personally is the use of female or neuter pronouns

I don't find it irritating but it does sometimes read as a bit forced. I tend to stick with one pronoun per example and vary them, as though my imaginary exemplars are as likely to be female as male, and sometimes neutral to suggest it's not important. Some people use 'she' as the standard default which I do like but it doesn't suit my style.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:47 / 22.05.07
I've started using "she" as the default myself. Partly I want potential female readers to feel acknowledged, although I have to confess that my primary motivation is to wind up the kind of people who get wound up by female pronouns.
 
 
Ticker
17:57 / 22.05.07
I just finished reading a great book by a male author and noticed he skillfully employed female pronouns in a great non intrusive way. I should go dig a quote out (and it was a magical text and many levels).

I feel like echoing TTS about using the female pronoun as a default as a way of signifying my own gender kit, but I don't want rephrase TTS's statement if it wasn't intended that way?

Anyhow. Yes I find it is a bit scary to use female pronouns when wanting people to look seriously at something I'm expressing and need to value it more myself by using it and upholding it as valid.
 
 
This Sunday
18:13 / 22.05.07
I find myself, in speaking, using female pronouns to discuss hypothetical people, more if I'm not entirely paying attention to what I'm saying. Probably from being raised mostly around women who were fond of saying 'she', and defaulting or something. In typing, I often go back and change them to male, because with female pronouns, someone almost inevitably will presume I mean a specific person and confusion ensues. Spivak-style genderless are fun and should be functional, but they also tend to confuse people in ways I feel are almost put-on. Confusion of that sort doesn't come much with 'he' however.

But, just while typing this and talking to my grandmother on the phone, I realized she never uses a male hypothetical. It's always 'To each her own' or 'if she...' and she pulls it off. Been pulling it off for roughly ninety years.

Maybe a dose of deliberate is what's called for in magick, but deliberate in a smooth enough way nobody notices/minds, and if they do mind, they might not be in the conversation, anyway. Certainly couldn't hurt to see how things read with the gender flipped or reversed, when speaking/writing in hypotheticals. It'd at least probably make me reconsider certain statements. And really, optimally, it shouldn't make us reconsider anything.
 
 
Quantum
18:18 / 22.05.07
I find it is a bit scary to use female pronouns when wanting people to look seriously at something I'm expressing

Really? Blimey. As a reader the only thing I think when someone uses them is 'Oh, that's good' briefly as I try and grasp the point. Without wanting to expose my massive ignorance, do people really take things less seriously if you say 'She summoned Beelzebub' instead of 'He summoned Beelzebub' or whatever? I would've thought it was only the people TTS refers to, who can frankly suck my gender-neutral balls and learn to get over teh wimminz.

my primary motivation is to wind up the kind of people who get wound up by female pronouns

Ha, you're starting to convince me to default to 'She'.
 
 
Quantum
18:24 / 22.05.07
Post-scriptum; those comments on my usage don't apply here so much, on Barbelith I use ze/hir because people here know about it so it isn't as obtrusive as in paper text or elsewhere on the web.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:27 / 22.05.07
I'm not exactly signifying my gender kit, although as an assigned female living as same I generally self-apply the female pronoun. (Even if it chafes slightly, I'm far enough off-centre that that jumping up and down screaming "me = teh sacrid 3rd!!1!" would be presumptuous and appropriatey.) It's more to invite the female reader in, to encourage her to look at the tools as something she can handle too.

In fact, I've sometimes been sorely tempted to create a male persona to write under. I don't write fiction that is acceptably 'female', and my magical and spiritual writing is even worse, since I don't engage in the kinds of practices seen as acceptable for a female magician. In the past I have taken a certain amount of flak over this, and not just from male-identified people who seemed to think I should get my arse back to Fnanpville.* More rarely but enough that I'm wary of it happening again, I've also come in for stick from certain women who are hostile to "male" magic and spirituality and to my "male" way of communicating on the topic. Apparently I write with a 'male voice'** therefore I have Male Privileges, therefore I can be snarked at QED. Just pretending to be a bloke looks a lot easier, some days.


*not here so much, of course.

**How can it be male? It's my voice! My magic isn't male! I'm not male! Nothing I do is male, coz it's me doing it! Grr!
 
 
Ticker
19:42 / 22.05.07
Quants I think TtS just summed it up nicely why writing from a gendered perception can be scary.

To some extent using the common male catch all pronoun as a default kicks up less dust (unless as noted it kicks up the male priv dirt cloud).

Positioning work as from a female perspective automatically (IMO) attaches it to certain traits and values associated with the female experience. It can be traced back I think to the discussion about discrimination in science where male priv places things as 'serious and worthy of examination' and female as 'look, it thinks it's people!'. Okay I'm being a bit extreme but that's what it feels like sometimes.

Mix that in with the religious and magical and you get this aggrivating conflict over perceived 'experts'. Which people have more valued voices in a community starts to float to the surface in nasty ways.

I especially get teeth grindy over tthe shoehorning of Chthonic Deities vs. Heavenly Deities getting lumped into the Nature vs. Culture/ Female vs. Male perceptions of our society. But I ramble.
 
 
This Sunday
20:04 / 22.05.07
Unfortunately, I don't think, depending on how deep-rooted you feel some things are, that 'male priv places things as "serious and worthy of examination" and female as "look, it thinks it's people!"' is being too extreme.

The people who get insist they're confused by a female hypothetical pronoun, or a genderless, seem to me deliberately making themselves confused/uncomfortable, a lot of the time, to try proving some meta-point that the male default is right and natural. I almost was giving them more credit, but the convers. with my grandma got me thinking, I know what she means when she says 'Imagine she...' or 'If her...', can sort out 'hir' or 'e' without hassle, and I'm by far not the sharpest cat in history, so no, no credit.

And, to put it on a magick/religious base, some of the Lutheran branches just finished debating whether women have souls. Again. That's a defaulting of horrendous levels, in a wholly dehumanizing manner. One of the wicca groups in LA that a friend of mine was working with, has decided women were a correction of man, coming in somewhere down the temporal road, which makes them 'better' in name, but younger and therefore more naive and in need of assistance in realworldy practice. (They bailed on the group.)

So, the split is extreme, but it's not too extreme.
 
 
Quantum
20:07 / 22.05.07
Nature vs. Culture/ Female vs. Male perceptions of our society.

Oh yeah, Earth vs. Sky = Man vs. Woman, Mars vs. Venus...

Every so often I feel like I should spend more time looking around other occult sites and IRL meets 'n stuff. Then when I do they're usually mediocre at best, and the testimony of people like you & TTS and others makes me realise it's horrible out there, for every sensible person you have to have ten people saying I can't understand the moon because I don't have a womb, or that Enochian is too hard for girls or some other shit. What my comfortably-embedded-in-Barbelith brain can't get over is that they are the majority and nobody seems to support voices for gender equality. I know this place isn't perfect but at least it isn't one person against everyone else as it seems to be elsewhere. Is my view jaundiced? The limited experience of real life groups I've had is that they stick to the typical witch=earthmoonmother wizzard=skysunfather roles as though they were true like gravity and are pretty old fashioned.
 
  

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