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Feminism 101

 
  

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Tryphena Absent
13:35 / 28.02.06
In light of some recent posts on barbelith it seems that we need this thread. Some examples to outline the source:

I know a Thai girl called Pik Lin Hor

some men are total arseholes, just like some women are slags

so what if i WAS a misogynist! does that mean i shouldnt be allowed to raise my kids?

So it seems to me that we have a problem on barbelith at the moment that revolves around the fact that some posters think it's acceptable to generalise women or claim that misogyny isn't a problem when they are the people using sexist language. The argument tends to be that they have personal evidence that some women behave in a specific way in certain situations.

I think we need to discuss the instances of sexism among ourselves, what we think feminism is, how we want to deal with it.

For reference here are some topics that deal with feminism pretty overtly as part of the subject matter:

Examples of digital manipulation in celebrity pictures

The Death of Roe vs. Wade
 
 
Triplets
15:50 / 28.02.06
Go to page 12-13 (or so) of the Lost US thread. It's a treat. Yes, I do think there are posters here with misogynistic tendencies and it makes my dermis shuffle when it occurs. I consider the Barb to be extremely homo-friendly so it makes me ask "why?" when the woman-hate (or, at least, the woman-extreme-disrespect) is shown. Why?

What do I think feminism is? Equal treatment of both sexes. Important to me would be to remove the near-invisible denigrating language used to describe women on a daily basis.
 
 
Claris Dancers
16:03 / 28.02.06
Oh man, im getting myself in a world of trouble here, but I can't resist...

Your examples, Nina, seem to be mild misogyny at best, at best. You are being far too sensitive as well as the people in the other threads who complained. Men and women are different - get over it.

From (the thankfully late) Andrea Dworkin:
"No woman needs intercourse; few women escape it."

Marriage - "Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Rape, originally defined as abduction, became marriage by capture. Marriage meant the taking was to extend in time, to be not only use of but possession of, or ownership."

Seduction - "Seduction is often difficult to distinguish from rape. In seduction, the rapist often bothers to buy a bottle of wine."

Disgusting.

I am all for true actual feminism and equality among the sexes. My wife and I have the most equal and healthy relationship I have ever seen. But I have absolutely ZERO tolerance for the utter bullshit Dworkin spouted.

Now who here keeps track of all the misandry and female chauvinism on the board?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:14 / 28.02.06
So, you've decided to find one feminist, quote her selectively and then use that to condemn all feminist thinking?

Gosh. That seems to make perfect sense.

As it happens, there's a thread especially for that sort of all-in-oneism, just here. Enjoy!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:16 / 28.02.06
Sorry, my mistake. Not all feminist thinking. You are fine with "true actual feminism" - that is, the feminism which you decide is permissable. Do you see the tiniest problem with that?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:25 / 28.02.06
Right.

Point 1: Having looked through all of N's links, there's no reference to Dworkin made in any of themn.

Why then, do you immediately bring her up? If you really want to discuss Dworkin, there is a thread which Haus has already linked to in which to do it, which not-so-incidentally discusses popularised misreadings of her work.

Why not Judith Butler, Juliet Mitchell, Germaine Greer, Adrienne Rich, bell hooks or any of another million and one writers and thinkers whose work is feminist? Is it because bastardised Dworkin is the best straw-man for your argument?

Point 2: men and women are different. Get over it, which following on from your dismissal of the various examples Nina presents, would seem to indicate that by 'different' you mean 'unequal'?

Mysogyny is not about difference amd similarity, it's about power and inequality.

In none of those threads does anyone argue that 'men' and 'women' are 'the same', in fact in several there are detailed explanations of posters' complaints that centre precisely on the fact that to apply certain terms to women is to produce a different effect than to apply them to men.
 
 
trouble at bill
16:43 / 28.02.06
Qwick, I agree with your assessment of the 'all men are rapists' school of feminism. However, trying to venture the opinion that feminism and misandry are not the same thing, and that one can support the former while resisting the latter is not going to be well received here on Barbelith, so yes, you have in all probability got yourself in the "whole world of trouble" you predict. More importantly, Nina Skryty is not Dworkin and I'm not at all sure that bringing Dworkin into this is going to do anything constructive at all. If people want concerns about alleged misogyny addressed, then so be it, surely? No one has actually played the 'all men are rapists' card yet. Oh and as for 'well it's only mild misogyny', jeeeez... %like, next time I hear someone make a racist remark I'll just think 'ho hum, guess that was only mild, not like anyone got beaten up or shot or anything' and continue about my busness like nothing happened.% And as for the "over-sensitive" line, er, %well, y'know, emotional things these women, prolly her time of the month or something so she's bound to be a bit hysterical.% I mean, Jeeeeezus, how totally reassured the women of the 'Lith will be to hear that you have judged the misogyny as mild and therefore acceptable and them to be being over-emotional about the whole business...
 
 
Chiropteran
16:45 / 28.02.06
Qwik, serious question: have you actually read Dworkin, or have you only read her quoted out of (the extremely relevant) context? It makes a World of difference. Those sorts of quotes used to really turn me off, not just to Dworkin herself, but (unfairly) to "political*" feminism in general, until I finally (thank you, Barbelith) took the time to read her original work and found her to be far different from the "manhating reactionary" her detractors portray her as.

I'll stop myself there since, as has been pointed out, there is a whole thread specifically dealing with various readings of Dworkin, elsewhere.

*a not-particularly-meaningful distinction I made at the time
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:48 / 28.02.06
From the other thread, since I an my imaginary wife both doubt that Qwik will make it to the end, from an interview between Dworkin and Michael Moorcock:

Michael Moorcock: After "Right-Wing Women" and "Ice and Fire" you wrote "Intercourse". Another book which helped me clarify confusions about my own sexual relationships. You argue that attitudes to conventional sexual intercourse enshrine and perpetuate sexual inequality. Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven't found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?

Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn't saying that and I didn't say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse--it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled.

The whole issue of intercourse as this culture's penultimate expression of male dominance became more and more interesting to me. In Intercourse I decided to approach the subject as a social practice, material reality. This may be my history, but I think the social explanation of the "all sex is rape" slander is different and probably simple. Most men and a good number of women experience sexual pleasure in inequality. Since the paradigm for sex has been one of conquest, possession, and violation, I think many men believe they need an unfair advantage, which at its extreme would be called rape. I don't think they need it. I think both intercourse and sexual pleasure can and will survive equality.

It's important to say, too, that the pornographers, especially Playboy, have published the "all sex is rape" slander repeatedly over the years, and it's been taken up by others like Time who, when challenged, cannot cite a source in my work.


Don't get me wrong. I hate women. I just hate sloppy research much more.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
16:51 / 28.02.06
What's that first link about? I read it, but all I could come up with was that her name sounds like "pickling whore"? Was that misogyny?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:56 / 28.02.06
Someone give me a concrete, not quoted-out-of-context/twisted beyond all recognition as per the Moorcock/Dworkin interview, example of 'all men are rapists' feminism, please.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:56 / 28.02.06
Oh, on 'what do I think feminism is', I haven't got the years to spare for a full answer but:

Feminism: an ever-more broad church of thought, theory and activism that encompasses many different and conflicting viewpoints. Rooted in/grows out of an examination/awareness of the way in which life for female-identified bods has historically, under patriarchy, been devalued, made unequal to that of male-identified ones.

Develops in many different ways, and I would say that I am a feminist because one of the ways in which it has developed is into a far-reaching examination of how expected/assumed gender roles are a trap/confinement for bods of many different genders, and works to undermine those gender assumptions.

Or as I've said elsewhere, I'm a feminist because feminist thought and action taught/enabled me to express my conviction/experiences that gender assumptions are a cage, under patriarchy, the cage for 'men' is just bigger and more comfortable than that for 'women'. The cage for other-gendered people is underground, out of sight and over crowded to suffocation levels.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:04 / 28.02.06
Would feminism be a branch of civil rights related to women's issues? Or is that too narrow a view?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:11 / 28.02.06
I think it might be, Jack - that is, that arguing for civil rights from the perspective of women's rights (to equality, to security, to property and so on) is certainly part of the project, but it doesn't cover everything feminism seeks to do. Especially as, as GGM noted above, one view of the feminist project sees it as a tool with which men can also help to deconstruct a system which also potentially or actually oppresses them...
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:14 / 28.02.06
First, let me say i never read anything on feminism and upt until starting reading this thread I've never even heard of Dworkin.

BUT, I can say I really don't get this "all (or most) intercourse is rape" approach (not saying anyone here subscribes to it, though). I mean, are we men to blame as to how evolution equipped us to have sex? Or is it just the cultural environment that makes it so (which I'd be more inlcined to understand)? It never was my experience, though, that me wanting to have sex with a woman equals me de-humanizing her somehow. In fact, it is important to me that my sex partner comes out of the experience feeling better than when they went in.

SO, what I want to ask to the women here is: is the experience of intercourse unconfortable and/or demeaning per se? Something they just have to get used to, to learn how to like? Because that would really make me sad, honest.


Oh, btw, I don't think that "pickling whore" comment was meant to be mysoginistic. I mean, it was, but it comes from a thread dedicated to names that sound funny in a way or another, and there's plenty of male names that sound quite humiliating and no-one was accused of misandry because of it (although racism may have been brought up). It is an "out-of-context" case. Specifically speaking, of course.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:14 / 28.02.06
Qwick, I agree with your assessment of the 'all men are rapists' school of feminism.

Just to follow up - Bilious, you describe this as a "school". Could you tell me who espouses this doctrine?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:16 / 28.02.06
Nina Skryty is not Dworkin

I should hope not or I would be posting from the grave.

The problem with Pik Lin Hor is, I think, the word whore and its association with Thai women from a western perspective. Pretty misogynistic and racist as well. Pickling or pick Lin aside (one could be ageist, the other a comment on accents). Since the person who put it in the thread has chosen not to explain what the funny was I don't think its necessarily out of order to work on the assumption... I can't see anything else there at all.
 
 
■
17:17 / 28.02.06
OK, I think GGM's definition of feminism is pretty clear.
As we're starting from basics and this is likely to turn into an instructional thread later, could someone considerably better-versed in gender politics than me provide a good working definition of what misogyny is, and why some terms that may seem "innocent" insults to the casual/unexamined speaker ("bitch", the c-word, "slag") can feed/create an unacceptable discourse? Just so we can be really clear.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:19 / 28.02.06
BUT, I can say I really don't get this "all (or most) intercourse is rape" approach

Well, DM, might I suggest you look for ANY EVIDENCE OF IT WHATSOEVER IN CURRENT FEMINIST THOUGHT? That mmight help you out a bit.

Cheers.
 
 
HCE
17:19 / 28.02.06
BUT, I can say I really don't get this "all (or most) intercourse is rape" approach

Dead Megatron, don't worry about it, because that approach doesn't actually exist, as you would know if you had read the GIANT THING IN ALL BOLD RIGHT UP THERE ^

^
LOOK UP

^
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:19 / 28.02.06
Just to follow up - Bilious, you describe this as a "school". Could you tell me who espouses this doctrine?
Would it be a made up school of thought? Remember when Rush Limbaugh first hit the scene and he would talk about "feminazis"? Is it like making something we're not familiar with sound like a big scary monster?
 
 
HCE
17:22 / 28.02.06
classic cross post
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:23 / 28.02.06
Jack, I'd probably reverse that and say that one branch of feminism is definitely looking at/thinking about/campaigning for civil rights from a 'womens' issues' POV.

I do think it's important, for me, at least, to emphasise that as is, we do live under patriarchy, so my cage metaphor does work on a level that places female-identified people under greater confinement.
 
 
Claris Dancers
17:24 / 28.02.06
Sorry, my mistake. Not all feminist thinking. You are fine with "true actual feminism" - that is, the feminism which you decide is permissable. Do you see the tiniest problem with that?

No problem at all, since "the feminism which you decide is permissable" is the dictionary definition...
feminism
One entry found for feminism.
Main Entry: fem·i·nism
Pronunciation: 'fe-m&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Why then, do you immediately bring her up?

My apologies, I wasn't aware of a pre-existing thread. And you are right, it was a bit of a strawman - but it is the impression i have of oversensitive people who feel they are being slighted from every corner.

would seem to indicate that by 'different' you mean 'unequal'?

Not necessarily. Overall i think men and women are equal, but men generally excel in areas where women generally do not and vise-versa. Specific exceptions in individuals also apply.

I agree with your assessment of the 'all men are rapists' school of feminism

Those are your words. I never said that and I dont believe she ever said that either.

Don't get me wrong. I hate women.

Misogynist!
 
 
trouble at bill
17:27 / 28.02.06
Just to follow up - Bilious, you describe this as a "school". Could you tell me who espouses this doctrine?

Subsequent to various pms and your quoting AD in context above Haus, it would appear that I went off half cocked there (to use an in no way phallogocentric turn of phrase) and that I was in all probability merely attacking a straw woman, or a straw school full of straw women, invented by wicked Patriarchs to discredit Feminists.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:27 / 28.02.06
And you are right, it was a bit of a strawman - but it is the impression i have of oversensitive people who feel they are being slighted from every corner.

(As if to a small child)

Well, of course it is. You need to believe that in order to continue to create straw man arguments. Like your use of selective quotation from a writer whose work you have not read to justify a hate-on against people who approach the world with a viewpoint different from yours. You could hardly do that if you had the impression of people of commendable sensibility who are applying rational judgement to external stimuli, now, could you?

God, we should set basic SATs for this board.
 
 
Quantum
17:28 / 28.02.06
I watch the board like a hawk for misandry and man-hate and burn any offenders at the stake. It's not exactly a busy job. Not many man-haters here, dammit.
 
 
illmatic
17:28 / 28.02.06
Would feminism be a branch of civil rights related to women's issues?

I think a problem with that might be that it links feminism to strongly to a particular time, when there are a number of historical precedents. Alas mentioned in the F4J thread the meetings of the first (?) women's group in the USA, back in the 1850s, I think. Obviously, groups like the suffragettes spring to mind also.

I'd be interested in finding out about how these movements saw themselves - to what extent would we recognise them as feminists? Any thoughts?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:30 / 28.02.06
the 'all men are rapists' school of feminism.

It's a class that runs at the community college. I see them emerging. Every night. Oh sure, they SAY it's printmaking, flower-arranging and aromatherapy, but I know the truth. Those two-colour floral boquets in fresh yet subtle spring shades? Really, they are POISON. Undetectable poison, which will be administered to innocent husbands. And they'll call it a heart attack, because no-one dares say different.

Witches, I tell you. All of them.
 
 
illmatic
17:34 / 28.02.06
Actually, scratch that request. I've a feeling this thread is going to be rather involved anyway.

Though if anyone wishes to PM some links or book titles, feel free.
 
 
Claris Dancers
17:38 / 28.02.06
damn Haus, take it easy. Did i personally offend you somehow?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:39 / 28.02.06
You're just being oversensitive.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:43 / 28.02.06
Not at all. I merely find bad arguments interesting. There's no personal component involved.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:46 / 28.02.06
So civil rights are a small part of feminism, but it's broader because it's challenging beliefs about women and their role in society trhoughout history? Am I getting warmer, and/or is there a feminsim for dummies type link someone could throw out for me?
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:48 / 28.02.06
BUT, I can say I really don't get this "all (or most) intercourse is rape" approach

Well, DM, might I suggest you look for ANY EVIDENCE OF IT WHATSOEVER IN CURRENT FEMINIST THOUGHT? That mmight help you out a bit.


Well, I don't think I really need to, because, when I said that, I was already feeling it could not be right. I mean, talking about simplistic world views.

But I'll bite: is there any current feminist tought that subscribe to that? Really?

And I'll repeat my question (which I think only women can trully answer) Regardless of ideology or feminism or whataver, is the experience of intercourse demeaning for women? If that were true, would not the same be true for passive gay men, or lesbians who like to use any kind of phallic sex prop? Just asking...
 
  

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