BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Trans men/women and men/women are/are not the same

 
  

Page: 1(2)3456

 
 
*
16:08 / 08.05.06
Sorry, sdv, I don't quite understand this:

I'm afraid it's simply ludicrous to raise the concept of 'opinion' given this context. If you read (Id)dentity's[sic] following note it is also merely 'opinion', except that that he is speaking from a different personal experience. Are you then addressing those who speak of personal experience and commitment on such topics or what?

I don't think that's quite what Haus was getting at, if I've understood you correctly. It's not that you aren't entitled to your opinions, it's that it's important to be self-reflective about what one is basing them on. Is it that women are a class of people for whom liking over-powerful cars is de facto not normal, or is it that trans women are a particular class of women for whom liking over-powerful cars says something about their gender or even gender in general? If the latter, why is it that trans women have this special status? That's what I was trying to get at. If someone said to you "I used to work with this woman, and she liked fast cars, and because of this I can conclude X big proposition about gender" would you feel as comfortable with that as you seem to feel with drawing a similar "big conclusion" about gender from your experience with this trans woman? As a trans man, why should my personality traits mean more about gender than any other man's?

Are we talking with each other here or am I missing something?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:15 / 08.05.06
That's about right - also that sdv did not actually meet Cherise before she transitioned, and is being remarkably uncritical about his sources, and about statements like "she desired women and so became one". I quite fancy a chicken jalfrezi, but I have no intention of following the logic.
 
 
elene
09:58 / 12.05.06
Natty Ra Jah, I strongly sympathise with your experience of men as "generally scary, oppressive people who i don't feel comfortable talking to," or rather, I suppose, with the experiences that got you there, and I agree with you that transmen are often unusually nice men. However I feel I must say that lots of men are nice, especially if one has the opportunity to see beyond a superficially aggressive stance. It's really easy to automatically overreact if one's been hurt.

The view that primary transsexuals are in fact intersexed, that for certain transsexuals this is realer, physical, is pretty common among m2f transsexuals, though there's a lot of variation as to what's considered primary. Of relevance to this thread is the consequence that while someone forced to transition by their nature can hardly not be considered a real man or woman - i.e. "the same as" - someone like myself, who decided to change because they were convinced they'd feel better as a result, can. This is politically important, and discussions that push the idea of true/real/primary transsexualism tend to be fierce and to bring out the worst in people. Nevertheless, it is a view that deserves to be represented on Barbelith. I hope you do bring your friend here.

Incidentally, I understand as primary someone who cannot integrate as a member of their assigned gender, someone who therefore must transition at the very first opportunity. I can easily imagine that such people are in some sense intersexed. As it happens I've never met such a person, but I may have sat across from one many moons ago at the Hirschfield Centre in Dublin. Wish I'd talked to her.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
19:54 / 16.05.06
I spoke to my friend about the primary/secondary thing yesterday. She emphatically doesn't see it as an elitist/"political" thing - she sees it as a biological subdivision (in fact she sees the whole transsexual thing as belonging far more in Laboratory than Head Shop territory - which probably has something to do with her having a biology degree, but, knowing her very well, i trust her scientific knowledge as just that, rather than a faux-objectivist political position) - primary transsexuals being those who knew what thewy were from childhood, and had always thought of themselves as girls/boys (delete as appropriate), despite having (superficially) boys'/girls' (respectively) bodies. She also strongly suspects (with good physical evidence in her own case and those of several people she knows) that many if not most primary transsexuals were actually born physically intersex (dual or ambiguous genitalia) and wrongly "corrected" (surgically) at birth.

I also had the impression that, at least among M2Fs, "primary" transsexualism was commoner than "secondary" (defined by my friend simply as becoming aware of one's transsexual identity/developing gender dysphoria at puberty or later, rather than any implication of "lesser" transsexual status).

Another distinction she made, IIRC, is that primary transsexuals are much more likely to respond instantly favourably to female hormones - because they are getting what is actually the "right" hormone balance for their body and brain - whereas some secondary transsexuals may suffer unpleasant physical side effects, which she sees as evidence that in some cases, secondary transsexuals may actually be seeking to transition for social rather than biological reasons, in which case in her opinion physical gender reassignment is a very bad idea, since it could actually induce "somatic" (as opposed to social - sort of like somatic/"clinical" vs reactive depression) gender dysphoria (tho i know that's the whole body/brain dualism can of worms)...

(I'm feeling very conscious here of not possessing the right to "speak for" my friend, or put words in my mouth - so apologies if she reads this and any part of my attempt to represent her isn't accurate... also sorry, this is at least slight threadrot - but i felt the need to reply to elene's post...)
 
 
Ganesh
20:14 / 16.05.06
I spoke to my friend about the primary/secondary thing yesterday. She emphatically doesn't see it as an elitist/"political" thing - she sees it as a biological subdivision

What, then, would be the "biological" indicators of primary transsexualism? Of those you've suggested, only physically ambiguous (possibly corrected) genitalia at birth is readily establishable in any objective sense - and even that's open to a degree of subjective interpretation in that, presumably, some clinician has made a decision as to the degree of genital ambiguity present. The other stuff ('knowing oneself' from childhood, immediately favourable response to oestrogens) is commonly reported among all transsexual people - and, in the case of benefits of oestrogens, in a whole range of people who aren't transsexual (there's research suggesting that, in biological males, schizophreniform symptoms can improve with oestrogens). Similarly, those with primary transsexualism do occasionally experience unpleasant side-effects.
 
 
elene
06:01 / 17.05.06
Sorry to put you in an awkward position, Natty Ra Jah, I ought to have just waited 'til your friend can speak for herself here. Thanks for expanding on the ideas. I don't think this is threadrot.
 
 
*
20:49 / 05.07.06
So the idea that trans men are a different sort of men and trans women are a different sort of women is one of the factors in the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival controversy. I'd like to talk about this notion with specific reference to women-only space.

I have heard a Michfest supporter say that Michfest is meant to celebrate women of a common non-trans experience— women who, by virtue of having been raised female in a sexist society, have experienced sexist oppression for their whole lives. I have a great deal of sympathy for this position, but I submit that this is not how the festival positions itself. The festival positions itself as a celebration of all women, in all their diversity; if this is to be a truthful representation, I argue that trans women must be included. If it is to be a celebration of women who have overcome or are struggling against the burden of lifelong sexist oppression, let it say that. I submit that trans women who have lived as women for thirty and forty years have suffered sexist repression for longer than an eighteen year old non-trans woman, and that some younger trans women are living as girls from a younger and younger age, with parental support. I think a policy that excludes trans women on the basis of experience should take these factors into account.

The Michfest policy makes me feel angry and hurt, but as a trans man I am not affected personally. It makes people close to me feel ten times as angry and hurt. Some of the attacks on Michfest have made people associated with or supportive of the festival feel very angry and hurt as well. I will do everything in my power to discuss this issue with great respect, and keeping my anger and hurt under wraps; I don't necessarily expect the same from people with greater investment.
 
 
RetroChrome
02:00 / 06.07.06
id:

I want you to know that I am interested in engaging you and others on this topic.

I want to read this thread through a couple of times and digest it, so that I don't have a knee-jerk reaction.

It's a difficult topic, to say the least, and I'm committed to discussing it with care and respect.

In the meantime, I did notice that there were quite a few speculations about both MWMF and Camp Trans. Both are easily accessible on the web.

Here's a bit on Michfest that provides some background on the inception and intention of the festival.
 
 
RetroChrome
02:03 / 06.07.06
And here's the website for Camp Trans.
 
 
*
08:29 / 06.07.06
From the link:

Opponents of the policy, including transgender and transsexual activists, do not recognize the particularity of WBW experience

I think this is a misstatement, or at least it doesn't adequately represent my position. I think that the experience of being a woman is very complex, and it takes many forms. I think that a trans woman's experience and a non-trans woman's experience may well differ in some significant ways, but they may or may not be more different than the experiences of two non-trans women with very distinct backgrounds or life histories. I believe there is a difference between the experiences of a woman of transsexual history and those of a woman of cisgender history, rather like the way in which a woman who is Black will usually have distinct life experiences and a distinct perspective from those of a woman who is white(*). But I think to see these differences as in some way essential is a mistake. It's a mistake which makes some white people believe we can never understand the perspective of people of color, and it makes some non-trans people believe they could never understand the perspective of trans people, and some straight people believe they could never understand the perspective of queer people, and men believe they could never understand the perspective of women. It others, and it ends communication instead of facilitating it.

(*) I use the comparison advisedly. Generally speaking, cisgender privilege and racial privilege have very different effects in society, and can interact in complex ways.
 
 
Ticker
14:42 / 06.07.06
I'm not clear on why people identifying as women are not being welcomed into women-only spaces.

I have been discriminated against as a woman, a bisexual woman, a non child bearing woman, and as someone with visible body modifications. While I cannot speak to the experience of my transsexual sisters I am deeply aware that my self identification and personal experience of womanhood is problematic for other groups of women.

As someone who embraces a feminist world view of empowering each person to live their own life and speak in their own voice any act of silencing is disturbing to me.

I personally accept that every one's experience varies greatly. In the context of cisgender only experiences I am excluded from several areas most notably those involving bearing children. Yet if I was excluded from a Women's Inclusive event for this reason I would be outraged as I am on behalf of my transgendered sisters.


The idea of limiting what a female person is to biology is very dangerous as we currently know of many genetic grey areas such as androgen insensitivity syndrome. Possession of a uterus is not enough, nor breasts, nor chromosomes.

It is my experience that the only respectful way to engage with other people is to ask them how they would like me to engage with them. If a visibly engendered male informs me that their proper pronoun is 'she' I will respect that and use it.

I am in no position to define who is and who is not a woman, rather I feel very strongly that only the individual herself can make this assessment.

If some women have a negative reaction to visibly male gender signifiers embodied in the person of an identified woman at a women-only event, those offended may need to review their definition of womanhood.
 
 
some guy
00:17 / 07.07.06
The idea of limiting what a female person is to biology is very dangerous

I agree it's difficult to define "woman" but at the same time I'm not sure that MTF = F nor that it even should. This isn't to say that I have issues with MTF etcetera but rather a problem with the idea that we should be trying to cram ourselves into binary labels in the first place.

I'm not trying to raise anyone's hackles and I'm sure I'm missing something obvious, but what's wrong with just accepting everyone as:

F
M
MTF
FTM
Etc

...and acknowledging that none of these are the same as the others? Or am I missing something and such inclusivity is somehow exclusive? I may be being stupid here, I'm the first to admit!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:42 / 07.07.06
Well, most obviously, it's possible that people who have gone to the time, expense and personal demands of gender realignment do not want to be thought of as FTMs or MTFs, or more precisely not thought of exclusively as FTMs or MTFs.

So, while I'm not sure where the inclusivity you mention is, this can certainly lead to exclusivity. For example, the Michigan Womyn's Fair has a policy on transpeople which excludes people who think of themselves as and represent as women, on the grounds that hey are not "properly" women.

Now, this is a bit tricky, isn't it? Because, at that point, there is a terminological battle. The MTF believes herself to be taxonomically a woman. The organisers of the event believe that she is not a woman, because she does not have access to the experiences of being a woman froom birth, or has not experienced discrimination in the same way (of course, transitioning has possibly opened her up to forms of discrimination perhaps on a line with that experienced by women, but go figure), or because their masculine energy, regardless of current physionomy, would disrupt the female power of the gathering. So, the MTF category is being used to exclude her from female space.

Is that the right thing to do? Is there an experience of womanhood that is inaccessible to transwomen, without which one cannot be a woman convincingly enough to get through the notional scanners?

There are other problems involving enforcement - specifically, how do you do it without DNA testing? Is the feminine peace-and-love energy benefit going to outweigh strip-searching butch lesbians? But these are relatively minor considerations. The immediate questions are:

1) Is it reasonable (or advisable) for an event aimed at women to exclude transwomen?
2) Would Michigan's Womyn's Fair be OK if it stopped purporting to be an event for women (or womyn) and instead starting calling itself "Mihigan Biofem Pride", or something to that effect?
 
 
Ex
07:44 / 07.07.06
I don't like binaries either, but I think I'd add a few things for consideration:

- There is a (very very limited) amount of stuff on offer to Fs. There is less equivalent stuff available to MTFs. If you're going to institute a new scheme of gender recognition which isn't based on binaries, then what happens to these institutions? This is just a pragmatic question - I find safe space and identitgy politics problematic, but in the short term, hell yes I want every person who identifies as a woman to be allowed into Michigan WF.
To some extent, you could say 'transpeople can set up their own resources'. But given the compartively more financially and socially hamstrung state of transpeople in general, this seems a bit tunnel-visioned. (not to neglect the fact that transpeople are setting up their own stuff). Also, it ignores the fact that transpeople helped to set up a lot of the stuff that bio-women now monopolise - they've been very active in queer politics and feminism, despite the repeated exclusions.


- would you still say that the Fs have more in common with each other, broadly, than the MTFs? Because I think this is a problem with the idea of identity groups based around gender. I have a lot more in common (I think) with middle-class transwomen my own age who haven't had children than anyone significantly older, less well-off or more kidded-up than me. So although in general I don't see why we can't recognise people's individual gendered histories, I don't know quite what we'd be recognising, or what kinds of access issues we'd base on that.

- Many MTFs identify as Fs. I don't intuitively 'get' this - I don't really get gender identification, full stop - but then this position comes from the luxury of being a nontransperson. I haven't had extreme alienation from my body, or felt strong identification with a gender that wasn't assigned to me at birth. I can afford to say 'oh, I don't like labels, I don't have anything invested in my gender,we shoudl avoid binaries and try to create a wonderful spectrum of lovelystuff' with very little risk to myself (not saying that's what you're saying - it's what I' say if I was feeling optimistic). So I have to take other people's word for what gender identification feels like, and having had a look at their word, I don't see why transpeople should have to have their history permenantly on display.
I think society should be able (for example) to embrace and recognise the complexity of someone who used to be straight and is now gay and doesn't disown their history. But I also think they shouldn't have to drag it out if they don't want to. Can one have one without the other, and without splitting into weird factions around 'stealth' transpeople and more 'out' transpeople? I'm not sure. I found your suggestion very interesting, though.
 
 
elene
08:17 / 07.07.06
... am I missing something and such inclusivity is somehow exclusive

MTF (Male-To-Female) is essentially a transient state, like "immigrant." Do you think "once an immigrant, always an immigrant, who cares?" Is it important to remember that one was not born here, and for others to remember that too?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:36 / 07.07.06
MTF (Male-To-Female) is essentially a transient state, like "immigrant."

Really? I may be misusing my terminology, then. I was using MTF to mean "a person born biologically male who is at some stage in the process of transition to being in a manner satisfying to themselves, and perhaps also legally, female". Is your position that one is described as MTF while transitioning, and once transitioned one is simply female, or a woman?

Which, incidentally, is precisely the opposite of the MWF organisers' position - that no matter what you do to your body, you remain in some way your gender of birth, and thus in certain cases you should be "filtered" out of the stream of women. This has its own practical problems, of course - how do you determine whether someone was born a particular gender? Invasive searches? Do you start discriminating against people on the grounds of how muchthey have spent on reconstructive surgery? Do you demand copies of birth certificates?
 
 
elene
09:01 / 07.07.06
Is your position that one is described as MTF while transitioning, and once transitioned one is simply female, or a woman?

Yes, as far as society in general is concerned. My health insurance provider needs to know my history, as does my doctor, the authorities already know it. Other than that it's my business and I'll tell you if I think you need to know or I want to, or if you ask.

As far as Michigan WMF is concerned, personally I'd respect their wish that I stay away. I'm sure there would be some women present who would find the thought of my being there threatening, in theory.

The rest of it's just the usual Artentfremdung we humans are so very, very good at.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:08 / 07.07.06
I'm sure there would be some women present who would find the thought of my being there threatening, in theory.

I'm sure there would be some white women present who would find the thought of non-white women being there threatening, in theory. I'm sure there would be some middle class women present who would find the thought of working class women being there threatening, in theory. I'm sure there would be some femme women present who would find the thought of butch women being there threatening, in theory. Should all these wishes be respected?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:25 / 07.07.06
Yes, as far as society in general is concerned. My health insurance provider needs to know my history, as does my doctor, the authorities already know it. Other than that it's my business and I'll tell you if I think you need to know or I want to, or if you ask.

OK - so you're positing that there is a distinction between official existence, in which your path of transition is recorded, and personal existence, in which it may or may not be recorded, right? However, this doesn't, for example, look at whether you are now legally represented by your gender-of-presentation - whether or not this can occur varies from country to country, and has implications for how one is treated, whom one can marrty and so on - and whether and where one ceases to be FTM or MTF and simply becomes a woman/man who used to be a man/woman - where does the boundary lie? As I understand it, you're saying that during the process of physical alteration/medical intervention/legal existence as a member of a gender not the one you want to occupy, one is in a transitional state and can be described as a FTM/MTF transsexual, and after that one is a woman/man, and no longer a FTM/MTF transexual - birth gender becomes only autobiographically relevant, yes?

I guess I'm thinking about that because the MWF cuts across that somewhat - you can choose as a personal choice not to go, certainly, but if you did want to go (because, as Ex says, precious few such events exist for members of your gender), the WMF would represent itself as an organisation entitled to know about your gender history - like the authorities or a doctor, in your model - and further entitled to make decisions about whether to treat you as a member of your current gender based on that history.
 
 
elene
09:36 / 07.07.06
Should all these wishes be respected?

The problem is their being able to reduce me to a man, flyboy. There is a power imbalance between men and woman and, insofar as I am a man, a member of a group with a history of profiting from the systematic oppression of women, I ought to respect a group of women's right to associate without my being present. They obviously have no right to exclude me as a type of woman, but I think they do as a type of man.
 
 
elene
09:55 / 07.07.06
... birth gender becomes only autobiographically relevant, yes?

Yes.

... the WMF would represent itself as an organisation entitled to know about your gender history - like the authorities or a doctor, in your model - and further entitled to make decisions about whether to treat you as a member of your current gender based on that history.

No, I don't think they do. They say they don't want mtf trans people attending, and I think that's an appropriate request, and one that I feel I must respect as I'd lived many years as a man before I transitioned. I don't feel I can simply disown my history. Had I transitioned as a teenager or a youth I'd rightly feel otherwise, and I feel it's up to me to decide.

It's not really different with the doctor, though I think it would be very inadvisable to keep it a secret. A health insurance company is on a different level, they clear have a right to know.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:23 / 07.07.06
They say they don't want mtf trans people attending, and I think that's an appropriate request, and one that I feel I must respect as I'd lived many years as a man before I transitioned.

Well, yes, and you have no problem with respecting that request, which is fine - the MWF doesn't want you, and you don't want to go. However, if another mtf transperson did not feel that request was repectable - did not feel that they wanted to be treated as "a kind of man" - then what happens then? How far are the WMF allowed to go to ensure that they are not letting in transwomen? Are they entitled to demand, for example, that you present proof that you were born biologically female - that is, are they entitled to expect as much information on you as a government authority?

Carding might be a comparable example - in the US, a shopkeeper is not only able but ordered to check ID if he has reason to believe that somebody trying to buy alcohol is underage. This is done to protect younger people from alcohol. The organisers of the MWF wish to protect its event from the presence of transpeople. There is no legal compulsion to do this, but they have undertaken to do it. Does getting a ticket to the MWF carry with it an expectation of being able and willing to prove one's birth gender at anny moment?
 
 
elene
10:45 / 07.07.06
Does getting a ticket to the WMF carry with it an expectation of being able and willing to prove one's birth gender at anny moment?

I don't think the MWMF organisers ought to be permitted to do more than make the request. For instance, I don't think it should be permissible to eject a trans person, for being a trans person, if found. I would expect it to be illegal to couple information gathered from an id used to buy alcohol to the request that trans people stay away. Even if I wanted to I couldn't permit the MWMF any rights in this regard because that would give every organisation - the NSDAP of America, or whatever they're called, the KKK - the same rights.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:55 / 07.07.06
For instance, I don't think it should be permissible to eject a trans person, for being a trans person, if found.

Forgive me for my lack of clarity. My question was a factual one - do they, not a hypothetical one - should they.
 
 
elene
11:02 / 07.07.06
I've no idea, Haus. Why do you imagine I'd know that?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:20 / 07.07.06
Well, I was asking the board rather than you specifically there, elene - I know that there are people who have attended here, as well as people who have or plan to protest at Camp Trans. I figured somebody would probably know.
 
 
elene
11:35 / 07.07.06
Oh, sorry.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:38 / 07.07.06
Oh, no problem. "Would they be entitled to" is absolutely valid as a further question.
 
 
RetroChrome
11:46 / 07.07.06
Is the feminine peace-and-love energy benefit going to outweigh strip-searching butch lesbians?

I'm not sure where you got this, but no strip-searches are performed. No ID is required to purchase your ticket. MWMF just asks that its policy be respected.

I have never heard of a trans-woman being ejected. Women are there to enjoy the festival and I think outing a trans-women is truly the last thing on their mind when they get onto the Land.

I plan to engage more in this discussion. Limited on time right now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:34 / 07.07.06
I'm not sure where you got this, but no strip-searches are performed. No ID is required to purchase your ticket. MWMF just asks that its policy be respected.

Just to clarify, that was a hypothetical. I have had butch biofem chums of mine suffering from people attempting to exclude them from women-only events. On the other hand, does this mean that if a transwoman decided not to respect the policy and bought a ticket, they would be allowed in because the alternative - to suggest that they were in fact a transwoman - was an unacceptable imposition? That's interesting in itself, raising as it does questions of "passing"... how about if the transwoman admitted to being a transwoman at the gate?

I have never heard of a trans-woman being ejected. Women are there to enjoy the festival and I think outing a trans-women is truly the last thing on their mind when they get onto the Land.

And that's why I ended my previous sentence with the word "gate", because we're back onto gatekeeping. If you are confident that transwomen have already been kept out, then outing transwomen (in the sense of publicly identifying and in the sense of keeping outside the walls) wil not be a major concern.

I'm in two minds about this one. One hand one, you've got the need for people in identity groups to set their own parameters for safe space, and on the other you've got the right of people in even smaller and potentially more discrimination-affected groups to be supported and resourced by their notional allies even when not convenient or ideal. Also, there's the statement made by the marketing of the MWMF as a celebration of the diversity of women - which it is, to a point, just as it is women-only, to a point (as I understand it, male children are allowed to attend up to the age of ten, although they are segregated in a specific part of the festival area).
 
 
RetroChrome
13:09 / 07.07.06
One hand one, you've got the need for people in identity groups to set their own parameters for safe space, and on the other you've got the right of people in even smaller and potentially more discrimination-affected groups to be supported and resourced by their notional allies even when not convenient or ideal.

Yes, the need, which is often very visceral and hard to define.

And, I get really squirmy when we're talking about minority (minority equaling presence or access to power and resources) groups and which ones face more oppression. It's not black and white; that's part of the myth. The reality is that we're complex individuals whose lives are defined by intersections of class, race, socioeconomic status...

And, I said I couldn't devote time to a good response right now.

OK, back to what I'm supposed to be doing.
 
 
Ticker
13:09 / 07.07.06
I'm fairly certain that there have been confrontations at the MWF though I shall go dig up a link...

Looks like it started nasty and is still prone to it..
No Penis On the Land

Nancy Jean Burkholder, an electrical engineer from New Hampshire, had attended the Michigan festival in 1990 without a problem. But for some reason, in 1991, another festival-goer asked Burkholder if she was a transsexual, and she told the truth. Despite the fact that she had yet to enjoy a lesbian relationship, the postoperative Burkholder defined herself as a lesbian feminist. In what must have been a frightening display of force, security guards ejected her from the festival grounds at midnight, without allowing her to contact any of her friends or collect her belongings.



I'm deeply troubled by the idea of saying a person with a penis is not possibly a woman. Especially now when children born intersexed are more likely to have their genitals (all sets and forms) left intact until such time as they may choose (or not) to alter them.

Separate but equal is not equal, giving privilege based on genitals smacks of the same nasty power dynamics we're supposed to be united in over turning.

"Said Camp Trans organizer and attendee Riki Wilchins, "The big change was that five years ago at the original Camp Trans, it was transexuals struggling with the Festival. But this year it was young, radical lesbians struggling with other lesbians. After one shouting match, I thanked one of them for her outspoken support, and she responded, 'I wasn't supporting you. If you're not welcome, I'm not safe here either. This is my issue, too.'" Her sentiment was echoed by a growing chorus of women who took up the cause as their own."

I believe that the fear of anyone with a penis is focusing too much on the symbol and not on the substance of the issue. The power of oppression does not live in the groin but in the mind. The organizers who reject transwomen are displaying the same exclusionary agenda as the society they claim to be a refuge from. In fact the 'no penises on the land' reduces the greater issue of gender equality to something absurd.
Genitals are not the enemy and if we fight a war against what's in each other's pants we haven't learned a damn thing.

[rant]

This kind of narrow minded, reductionist, and bigoted version of feminism ( 'us vs. them/ vaginas vs. penises'' ) unconsciously helps perpetuate the overall system of oppression by dishing out another kind of oppression. Misanthropy is as disgusting as misogyny. Just as I would be offended by an exclusive men only group indulging in misogynistic drivel I am offended by the misanthropy being waved around in the language of this divided perspective. The answer to ending misogyny is not going to be found in framing another kind of hatred as acceptable. While the state of privilege may be deeply bound up in perceptions of gender, we cannot allow ourselves to believe it is inherent in gender.

[/rant]
 
 
alas
14:21 / 07.07.06
I think you mean misandry, rather than misanthropy.

I understand and to some degree share your anger about forms of feminism that demonize men/male genitalia, but I am also a little wary of it. Feminism has been ridiculed, trivialized, and demonized as "man-hating" from its inception, even as men continue to have economic and social privileges, and, most important to this context, have used, and continue to use, rape and the threat of rape as a means of social control over women--and over weaker, and therefore feminized, men.

I wish that the penis did not seem to embody this threat for so many women, but it does. I would like them to change this perception, I would encourage them for their own mental and emotional health to change this perception. But it's sort of like the what we've been discussing in the "national language" thread: just as learning a new language as an adult is a very very hard task for many people, I think unlearning coping mechanisms (even those that are arguably at least somewhat maladaptive ones), is very very hard, and individuals are going to differ in their abilities to change these perceptions--and the speed.

We can scream "you should change!" all night long, but if we're asking someone to change something that they believe is protecting them from deep and grave psychic damage, we should not be surprised that they feel it's more important to be self-protective in this instance. When rape is no longer used to reinforce a still essentially patriarchal power system, it might be more reasonable to demand immediate change from those who have been victimized by it.

I don't believe it's fair to the history of patriarchal relations, in other words, and those who are victims of it, to draw a direct equivalence between misogyny and suspicion of masculine power.
 
 
some guy
14:26 / 07.07.06
For example, the Michigan Womyn's Fair has a policy on transpeople which excludes people who think of themselves as and represent as women, on the grounds that hey are not "properly" women.

I suppose this raises the question of exclusionary policies in the first place. Perhaps we make the case that the MWF ought to accept MTF into its fold. On what grounds do we then support their decision not to allow FTM or M into their collective? This isn't to suggest that MTF have no place at the MWF but rather asking how we make such determinations. I have no idea.

Is there an experience of womanhood that is inaccessible to transwomen, without which one cannot be a woman convincingly enough to get through the notional scanners?

I think the second half of this question is somewhat disingenuous. I suppose we should ask whether there is a difference between "passing" and "being" and whether the unique experience of being "raised as a woman" due to biology might be better served by using different terminology to free up "woman" as a more encompassing term that can include "raised as a man" and other situations. I am not against any of these things but I can sympathize with all sides of the issue. This is why I asked if it might be helpful to expand our gender terminology to recognize "equal but different."

Now, this notion might be offensive to some, and I recognize that and ask for clarification, explanations and so forth because my intent is not to offend. If my thoughts are taking me down a bad path I'd like the opportunity to be led to a good one.

If you're going to institute a new scheme of gender recognition which isn't based on binaries, then what happens to these institutions?

I agree it opens a can of worms. And I agree that it gets tricky when we consider the limited resources available to emerging minority groups. Again I have no idea what to do about it, except include everyone. But does that inclusiveness end when a M shows up and asks for a chair? Should we define our terms based on self-identity or perceived identity? Which overrides the other in group situations? If the W of a random safe space institution feel threatened by the presence of a MTF, whose needs take precedence? More questions I don't know how to answer.
 
 
Ticker
14:59 / 07.07.06


You are correct I did mean misandry not misanthropy. Thank you.

I don't believe it's fair to the history of patriarchal relations, in other words, and those who are victims of it, to draw a direct equivalence between misogyny and suspicion of masculine power.

I have an issue with the idea of 'suspicion of masculine power' rather than 'suspicion of automatic privilege'.

I agree that the historic context is important but I also believe that there is a degree of misandry being allowed through in the argument of excluding transwomen. It feels to me as if the prejudice of someone having born with a penis or owning a penis, regardless of their personal experience of oppression and self identification, is being used as a legitimate basis for exclusion.

I think unlearning coping mechanisms (even those that are arguably at least somewhat maladaptive ones), is very very hard, and individuals are going to differ in their abilities to change these perceptions--and the speed.

While I agree, there are some prejudices even if they are coping mechanisms that we do not tolerate a slow learning curve for. As racism is unacceptable in any direction of the privilege ladder, so to is sexism. While compassion for someone unlearning perceptions garnered from abuse is an absolute requirement, allowing them to operate in the greater culture with those behaviors is destructive.


When rape is no longer used to reinforce a still essentially patriarchal power system, it might be more reasonable to demand immediate change from those who have been victimized by it.

As part of honoring rape victims I'd like to remind everyone that there are female rapists and male victims and that rape is not confined to those possessing a penis. Until rape itself is viewed as a violent attack and an abuse of power using sexual acts, the roots of our rape cultural will not be properly addressed. Rape maybe due to a large extent to the patriarchal structure but we must remember that being prejudiced against someone because of their assumed position in the imposed hierarchy is still that, a prejudice.

We cannot be afraid to be critical of feminism as it is practiced and be true to its purpose. If individuals are being discriminatory under the banner of feminism there is something seriously wrong.

I have no issue with an exclusive space for women who wish to be absolutely shielded from whatever they wish to be. My concern is the MWF is being hypocritical by the use of their language it is not inclusive of all women.
 
  

Page: 1(2)3456

 
  
Add Your Reply