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Trans men/women and men/women are/are not the same

 
  

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01:58 / 26.02.06
So I'm engaging in a (so far) very civilized iteration of the usual "trans men are men, but they're not quite the same as, you know, MEN men" argument in another online community. It's led me to wonder about gendered spaces and to what extent I "am" a "man" and many other "things" in "scare quotes."

To elaborate: While many trans men are eager to assert our "just men" status, among ourselves many of us acknowledge that we have different experiences from those of non-trans men, and this probably has an impact on our personalities in a way which is quite gendered by our society. For instance, being raised in a female role, I suspect, leads me to listen more readily and express my ideas less assertively than I might if I were raised in a male role. These traits aren't essentially gendered, but they are accidentally gendered by the roles we expect men and women to play in our society. Similarly, it's commonly argued (particularly in a certain school of feminist thought) that trans women who have been raised in a male role upset the balance of women-only spaces by bringing in "male energy" or behaviours which remind some of male privilege in action.

On the other hand, there are many trans and gender-variant people who assert an identity other than simply male or simply female who should also be heard and respected. Because of this and the other reasons stated above, it is simplistic of me to keep stating that trans men are MEN and trans women are WOMEN full stop. As I frequently do for the "benefit"— or at least education— of people who would like to see us excluded from the gendered spaces of our identified group. But not all trans people desire to be "othered" for all of our lives; it's certainly uncomfortable for many of us.

The way I see myself is clearly not as a woman, but not simply as a man either, and yet I assert that I have a right to be treated wholly and simply as a man in society because of my greater comfort in that role. ("Society" here includes Barbelith, for those of you wondering.) This complexity clearly creates difficulties, one of which is that people may perceive it as inconsistency.

This thread seeks to explore the variations of transness and othergenderedness from both trans and non-trans perspectives. Can we talk about "trans men" and "trans women" as categories within "men" and "women?" Or are these intersecting groups rather than concentric ones? To what extent is it acceptable to assert a simplistic identity for the sake of political expedience? If we go that route, how do we avoid invalidating the identities of those who are wedded to their complexities? Is this making any bloody sense?
 
 
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02:17 / 26.02.06
Oh. And given the atmosphere on the boards lately, let me say right off the bat that certain positions are going to be considered too poorly-informed BY DEFAULT to be given much time in this thread. Examples of these, but not an exhaustive list, follow:

"Trans women are not real women because they have wee-wees."
"Trans men are not real men because they don't have wee-wees."
"Trans women are women because they don't have wee-wees." (where it indicates a fundamental vocabulary problem)
"Trans men are men because they have wee-wees." (where it indicates a fundamental vocabulary problem)
"Trans women/men are freaks because I don't understand/like them."
"Trans women/men are just homasekshuls in denial."
"If I think I'm a tiger/dragon/elf/skunk that doesn't make me a tiger/elf/skunk/wombat/whateverthefuck, therefore (anything)."
"If I think I have the soul of a (personofXethnicity) it's the same as/comparable to a trans man thinking they're a man." (I don't mind discussing this one in another thread if someone thinks it deserves time.)

Please note, however, that I have a lot of faith that most people who post in Head Shop are willing and able to discuss transgender issues respectfully and intelligently. It's not my intention to intimidate any of these folks out of posting in this thread. On the contrary, I hope by making it really clear what I find too offensive/ignorant/off-topic to engage with in this particular space, that others who might be needlessly worried about offending/looking foolish/threadrotting will be reassured enough to post.
 
 
Ganesh
11:17 / 26.02.06
Well... I think the 'trans men are not real men' viewpoint is flawed at least partly because even leaving trans issues aside, 'men' is not a single monolithic set with identical upbringing. There's variation across and within cultures with respect to the expectations placed on male children (I'm thinking of your comments re: assertiveness, Entity), as well as some variation as a result of birth order.

One could argue, for example, that gay men are not the same as heterosexual men by dint of life experiences - and, indeed, some cultures and individuals would claim that gay men are not men. I suppose it depends on the cultural weight placed on having been born with a penis versus the cultural weight of having a wife and family, say, or the cultural weight of being the primary bread-winner.
 
 
Ganesh
11:31 / 26.02.06
On a more personal note, I find that I often like and get on with trans men, generally speaking, and have been thinking about why this should be so. I suppose I perceive certain similarities in the way trans men and gay men (at least gay men of my generation and above) have had to consciously think about masculinity, their masculinity and how it intersects with the expectations of the society in which they live. Trans men arguably have to 'unlearn' more than do gay men, but I think both groups have probably had to actively examine themselves, their validity as men and their place in the world - to a greater extent than does yer average heterosexual natal male.

It also strikes a chord, Entity, when you ask

To what extent is it acceptable to assert a simplistic identity for the sake of political expedience? If we go that route, how do we avoid invalidating the identities of those who are wedded to their complexities?

because it strikes me as not dissimilar to much of the 'gay struggle'. For many years, "we're essentially the same as you" has been the political battle cry - a party line of sorts - but there's a significant minority of gay men (and apologies this being mainly about gay men in the UK) who feel we've 'sold out' by pushing an assimilationist agenda. Okay, so there's now much more legal parity (in terms of inheritance tax, next-of-kin status, civil unions, adoption rights, etc.) than was previously the case, but in achieving this almost-equality, have we oversimplified/overpackaged ourselves and our sexuality to the extent that we've 'sacrificed' those who are, as you put it, "wedded to their complexities"?

Some of this ambivalence is, I think, reflected in the spectrum of response, among gay men, to the introduction of civil partnership legislation in the UK. While there's certainly a large number of same-sex couples eager to 'do the wedding thing' complete with morning suits, blessings, big white wedding cakes, etc., etc., many are more hesitant - and a sizeable proportion see civil partnerships as utterly irrelevant to their relationship. We may argue that "we're just the same as you" and, to an extent, I think this is necessary lobbying shorthand, but on an important level it's disingenuous.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:18 / 26.02.06
I'm with Ganesh. There is no solution to this problem of transpeople being or not being 'real men' and 'real women' unless the 'basic' gender categories are acknowledged to be culturally and socially different depending on context and situation. The affective experience (and I would argue, the bodily, kinetic experience) of being male or female changes depending on culture, time, place, who you're with, what you're expected to feel or desire. So, everyone can get on with being the 'man' or 'woman' they feel they are.... And relinquish the need for categories in which everyone is 'the same', hopefully, as well as this somewhat spurious quality, gendered 'realness'.

The other direction I'd approach this conversation from is to ask, what is the significance of 'realness', what does it accomplish, what work does it do? Clearly, the desire to be recognised as a 'real' member of a gender does quite a lot of work in all kinds of places -- not only in 'cisgenderist' spaces, but in transpeoples' experiences and affective maps. But what does 'real' mean? Why are particular people invested in it; why do they need to be?
 
 
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19:01 / 26.02.06
there's a significant minority of gay men (and apologies this being mainly about gay men in the UK) who feel we've 'sold out' by pushing an assimilationist agenda.

The same is true in communities of which I am a part— trans, gay male, and larger queer (particularly youth) communities in the US. In fact there's a tension in my immediate community between activist queers who aren't into the party scene and think that's a distraction from the "real work" of changing our society, and party/club queers who think that the others are being assimilationist because they seem to actively disdain queer culture. (For some reason it has not occurred to these two groups that their interests are not mutually exclusive.)

But this is a bit of a tangent. I've more to say, but I'd like to let some other people weigh in first. Ganesh has nicely broadened the discussion to other kinds of queer identity, which is cool by me.
 
 
Baobab Branches and Plastic
13:12 / 27.02.06
Also... there is a line of feminist theory that suggests that homosexual ideotropes of femininity as evidenced by trans/vest/gender/sexuals are actually highly 'sexist' - in that they tend to have a fairly one dimensionally view of what maketh a woman. I.e. When I am in drag and pretend to be a woman I'm going to be catty/slutty/etc etc blah.

Interestingly this same viewpoint is put forward by South Park in the episode 'Mr Garrison's new vagina'

Which begs the question whether you can have your c*ck and eat it too.

On a serious note: the overarching question of what consists of a gender seems to be convoluted to such an extent that by and large it's polite to asciesce to whatever conceptions people have of themselves. *insert liberal backpedalling here, not pink pedal pushers mind, as well as non gender identifying remark*

Thought it has also become rather interesting the ways in which the gay/trans community informs straight female fashion.

Let the circle be unbroken.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:10 / 27.02.06
Also... there is a line of feminist theory that suggests that homosexual ideotropes of femininity as evidenced by trans/vest/gender/sexuals are actually highly 'sexist' - in that they tend to have a fairly one dimensionally view of what maketh a woman. I.e. When I am in drag and pretend to be a woman I'm going to be catty/slutty/etc etc blah.

is that strictly speaking feminist theory, or is it just thinly-veiled transphobia masquerading as feminism? I mean, I can think of Julie Bindel credibly coming out with something like that, but is there a body of theory? I'm afraid I'm not very up on modern feminism.

There's also the problem there that it conflates the experience and the relationship to gender of gay people doing drag (presumably straight male) transvestites and transgendered people, which strikes me as astonishingly unwise.
 
 
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05:14 / 28.02.06
I think you'll find this assertion more in second-wave feminism than in third, Haus, and if you care to read The Transsexual Empire by Janice Raymond, you may discover its fullest form.

I feel very confident in saying that this brand of assertion typically ignores or writes off enormous chunks of evidence. For instance, as I recall, Raymond asserts that female-to-male trans people like myself are fictions made up to give male-to-female trans people greater legitimacy. I think she knows nothing of what to do with butch lesbian trans women, either. Asserting that trans femininity is inimical to feminism forces one to write off powerful transgender feminists like Kate Bornstein, Riki Wilchins, and many others whose work has furthered modern feminist thought. Further, I can't see any evidence for it which does not appear to me to be the result of incomplete observation coupled with a reactionary fear of apparently simple gendered categories becoming increasingly complex.

Certainly you need to separate the gay community from the trans one if you are going to advance this argument, as the reasons for which gay men don drag differ from those for which heterosexual men wear women's underwear, which differ from those for which a transsexual woman nervously wears a women's blazer for work for the first time. As Haus pointed out, above, for which thank you.

I confess to having fairly little respect for the interpretations of feminist theory as expressed in South Park, since I've encountered superior articulations of feminist thought in the works of some of Trey Parker and Matt Stone's contemporaries— such as, for instance, Victoria Pitts' In the Flesh, a description of how body modification by women represents an effort to reclaim the body from the patriarchy. Or, for that matter, the liberation theology of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. But that is beside the point.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:10 / 28.02.06
Which begs the question whether you can have your c*ck and eat it too.

Someone did a survey once, which founds that 99% of men said they would suck their own dicks if they could. Transmen are probably no exception.

%Sorry, did I lower the tone?%

On a serious note, I always go to South Park for my feminist theory. It's sure easier to read than Judith Butler.
 
 
elene
11:53 / 28.02.06
I always go to South Park for my feminist theory. It's sure easier to read than Judith Butler.

Oh come on,

What is at stake is less a theory of cultural construction than a consideration of the scenography and topography of construction. This scenography is orchestrated by and as a matrix of power that remains disarticulated if we presume constructedness and materiality as necessarily oppositional notions.

Can't see the wood for the large, perennial, woody plants, Mr D.?
 
 
Baobab Branches and Plastic
15:19 / 28.02.06
I think you'll find twas I that lowered the tone with both the South Park reference and the auto-lingus pun (air lingus anyone!).

Re: trans as a form of Misogyny. I think it's possible but certainly not the rule. Though, without having gone through childhood as a woman (which I'm sure is a rare occurence amongst male born-trans) the normative assumptions of what they become might be passively misogynist given that the host society is misogynist. Though I haven't read any literature on this idea so I don't know its development other than the basic outline above, and certainly don't know any of its refutations.

As far as the topic of 'trans-gender gender roles or identification' I'm not sure whether we're talking about:
How trans people see themselves
How other people see trans people
How trans people see other trans people

Please clarify?

Do trans people measure the sexual 'authenticity' of other trans by the success of their trans strategies (from dressing to surgery)?

Do non-trans people measure the sexual 'authenticity' of other trans by the success of their trans strategies (from dressing to surgery)? I.e. If I didn't know that she wasn't born a woman and we don't tell anyone of our love, whats the harm

Do some trans consider other trans as non-trans by their inability to hide their birth-sex?

I don't know the answer to questions above, but would certainly help clarify the argument for me? Lil help!
 
 
Ganesh
16:45 / 28.02.06
Firstoff, what's "sexual authenticity"? And how would one go about quantify the "sexual authenticity" of a common-or-garden man?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:38 / 28.02.06
I often wonder what psychoanalytic difference reproduction makes. How much we as individuals of a certain sex are formed, not by the ability (as this might not be present in any of us) but by the pressure and expectation of an ability that subconsciously effects us and what this means with regard to the question posed by the title of this thread.

In real terms ie. this is a man, this is a woman, I don't think it has any meaning at all but the knowledge that it is a possibility to have a child in a way allowed by one's sex and what that means to people interests me. I suspect I'll never get an answer as it's an area that is often crowded by bias and also such an individual thing.

I have tried to write this as simply as possible because this feels like a dangerous question to ask, as if I could be asserting a point rather than just asking. I feel I should make it clear that this does not effect my perception of gender. I quite simply see a trans-man as a man.
 
 
Ganesh
22:03 / 28.02.06
I quite simply see a trans-man as a man.

I do too, but a man who's had to go through a particular process (or processes) to be simply a man - in the same way as (I tend to assume) a gay person has had to consciously examine themselves psychologically, in the light of societal and possibly personal stigma. A trans man has had to do this and, in many cases, also wrestle with healthcare systems in order to effect a greater or lesser degree of physical transformation.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:35 / 28.02.06
Oh certainly, I was only describing my own response.
 
 
alas
22:37 / 28.02.06
Echoing Ganesh: As someone who has adopted children, I have come to one very firm conviction: History Matters. Personal history shapes who we are. There's a real desire to erase the past, in the U.S. especially, that I find troubling, and which possibly explains why I tend to insist on this point.

Our history of being perceived as belonging in one category or another shapes us in important, but not completely predictable ways. If I have grown up "white" but discover as an adult that a grandparent was "black," making me, at some level "black" too, it is still quite a different experience to growing up being perceived as black.

If I grow up being perceived as female or male, and deliberately go through a process to change that perception, I will be shaped by every aspect of that experience in some, certainly not completely predictable, ways. But I am wary, I admit, of any attempt to utterly erase that experience or at least to suggest it is trivial.

I am willing, however, to be corrected on this point.
 
 
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23:28 / 28.02.06
I agree with you, alas, and also with Ganesh. What I'm wary of is generalizations like "trans men are more gentle/better listeners/more egalitarian" by virtue of that experience; like "trans women use male privilege against other women." Which is also a part of the Janice Raymond line of reasoning that Chief alludes to (as cited in the eminent, although understandably flawed, scholarship of Trey Parker and Matt Stone). Both seem to me to be coded versions of essentialism. Trans men are regarded as more gentle and passive because they "are" "really" "women," whereas trans women are not only supposed to be more aggressive and sex-focused because they "are" "really" "men," they are loathed because they present themselves as women, which upsets the gendered power structure. I always get to this point and then cease making sense because I fail to see how this argument can continue to be called feminism, so I'll move on now.

As far as the topic of 'trans-gender gender roles or identification' I'm not sure whether we're talking about:
How trans people see themselves
How other people see trans people
How trans people see other trans people

Please clarify?


When I say identification, I mean how one sees oneself. When I say role, I mean what others expect of one. When talking about how trans people see other trans people, I usually talk about labeling within the community.

Do trans people measure the sexual 'authenticity' of other trans [people] by the success of their trans[ition] strategies (from dressing to surgery)?

Do non-trans people measure the sexual 'authenticity' of other trans [people] by the success of their trans[ition] strategies (from dressing to surgery)? I.e. If I didn't know that she wasn't born a woman and we don't tell anyone of our love, whats the harm

Do some trans [people] consider other trans [people] as non-trans by their inability to hide their birth-sex?


What you seem to be touching on here is something I've known as "good-tranny-bad-tranny" syndrome and the "trans enough" phenomenon. It happens in our community, but it's bad (sweeping value judgment mine). It's also not exactly what I was aiming at for this thread, although it might be worth considering.
 
 
Baobab Branches and Plastic
08:31 / 01.03.06
Thanks,

I expect that people see themselves in whatever they do; which may be as distorted and untrue for trans as it is for anyone else. Obviously trans people see themselves as truly whatever they trans into otherwise they wouldn't bother, would they? or would they?

re: personal history affecting identification.
Sure, but everyone's history is pretty meaningful to who they are and who's to say that a person growing up as man makes a better or worse woman. Its completely subjective, as who's to say whether someones background makes them a better or worse person (I might be missing the point here). A good case is siblings despite similar childhood sometimes one of them might be an asshole while the other one a good person (to you at least, for others they might think the reverse of the same person).

re: good tranny bad tranny, i agree thats probably another thread.
 
 
alas
10:09 / 01.03.06
who's to say that a person growing up as man makes a better or worse woman

So far as I can tell, no one has said this in this thread. There are (a very few) "women only" groups/events (Michigan Womyn's Festival comes to mind) that exclude mtf's from the space, because--as I understand it--the organizers have pledged to make it a safe place for women, and have come to the conclusion that mtf women somehow compromise that decision. They therefore do what they can to be sure that no mtfs are allowed onto the official site, but there is a separate "trans camp" outside the limits. This has been, I understand, very controversial. I also understand that, in this case, partly it's because the MWF is basically run by one woman who calls the shots, and that's how she called them.

This is my understanding of the event, which may be in error, because I not only haven't attended myself (although people who are very close to me have) but it's almost certainly not how I would approach the question.

The way I try to understand it is that experience of physical violence by men against women and the, often repeated experience of male-born men taking over not just women's spaces, women's organizations, women's lives, but being of course in control of most of the infrastructure already and dominating mainstream cultural space makes some women very very wary of men and, by extension, persons with a history of being male. Some then become, or have always been, very essentialist in their approach to gender. Some become strategically essentialist.

And I want to emphasize that there are a very very small number of separatist feminists, distorted versions of whom are regularly trotted out as straw women for anti-feminist positions (see Feminism 101 in the conversation!), and ... well, that really pisses me off. I don't hold their position myself, although arguments like that tend to give me a perverse desire to claim it, because it is a classic backlash approach to arguing against social change all the while claiming the moral highground. ("I'm not against feminism! Just bad evil man-hating feminists!" Bullshit.)
 
 
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15:35 / 01.03.06
alas, I think your assessment is substantially the same as mine. I would further encourage you to check out the michfest discussion boards if you haven't already.

Learning experience— I went to the boards just a moment ago to find an example of michfest supporters being terrifyingly transphobic. On first glance all I found was mild trans-skepticism, which quite surprised me— as it shouldn't have. Personal prejudices in action.
 
 
Ex
17:50 / 01.03.06
Haus - it's fairly well-established strand, unfortunately. I don't know how much influence it has, or how well it sells. As mentioned, Janice Raymond's The Transexual Empire, but also more recently:
Sheila Jeffrey's Unpacking Queer Politics in 2002 - general argument was that transmen are opting out of lesbian culture to 'trade up', thus bad, and transwomen are parodic, stereotypical women, and thus bad.
Ariel Levy's Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture 2006 - has a chapter on 'boi' identified lesbians and transmen in the US, and how they're all about the sex and the misogyny.
I've read a couple of articles/papers by Tamsin Wilton (can find refs) that implied that transwomen have a distorted sense of female identity. Wilton and Jeffrey are much-published theorists, Levy's a less academic newcomer.

I think a common rhetorical problem is that commentators collapse the cultural issues around transgender down onto the person of transpeople themselves. Thus Raymond (I think, from memory) makes some cogent points about the systems of diagnosis and the medical gatekeeping for transwomen, and how they favour stereotypical gender expression - but then she decides that means the transwomen themselves must be stereotypical infiltrators into womanhood. Similarly, Wilton protests she's making a distinction between the people and the cultural mechanisms that surround them, but when discussing the mechanisms always seems to come back to querying transpeople's right to identify. These explanations seem to see transpeople as always not only in accord with the sexisms of the systems, but also causing them. Which seems very cart-before-horse - blaming a tiny and fairly disempowered bunch of people for culture-wide misogyny.

alas - spot on, I think, but just to clarify, 'Camp Trans' is a protest camp, and not part of the festival. It runs workshops and creative events and hands out literature, I think.

When I'm talking to people about transgender stuff, I rely on a few routes round the 'real'ness question. My usual response is to throw the gender of either the person whose asking the question, or my gender, into question (not in a hostile way, I hope - more a reflective way).

One I used last week, on the identity question:
'But my transgender mate [some of my best friends - I know...] has lived as a woman for thirty years, and I've only done it for ten years - doesn't that mean she's got more experience of being a woman than I have?'

And last month, on transwomen with girlfriends ('Why would they bother?')
'But you're a woman - you know it's not all about fancying blokes, is it? Also, I fancy ladies - does that change my gender?'

And last year (on genital surgery and making a big pre-op, post-op distinction):
'But you have no idea what my genitals look like - does that change how you see my gender?'

And when it gets to the bottom of the barrel, I usually end up saying:
'But there are thousands and thousands of nontranssexual women whose gender expression, and the way they relate to being women, really annoys me. But I still see them as women. Given the numbers, shouldn't I go and poke them first?'

I hope this expresses that I support the gender identities of transpeople, without me having to say 'NO! They are Real WomenTM! Trapped in The Wrong Body !' (which I find a perfectly plausible as an expression of the somatic feelings some transsexual people have, but ineffectual as a universal explanation).
Not identifying as - well, anything, actually, but a woman primarily - I try not to rely on arguments where I have to say 'I AM WOMAN! I welcome transwomen as WOMEN!' Although that's probably assumed by most people I'm discussing it with. Also tricky because I don't want to sound as though I'm Officially Recognising transwomen, from my position of authority of having-a-lady-part (thus, my right to self-determine is never in question, and I get to ratify other people's genders).

The only time I baulked was when I had to explain the existence of transmen to my father, who said they couldn't exist as you can 'take something away but not stick something on'. I chickened out and didn't say 'But you're a man - isn't there more to it than having a cock?' because he is my father. I instead suggested that as very few people ever see one's genitals, they aren't the be-all and end-all of living in a gender.


On the good-tranny, bad-tranny thing - I was teaching Trumpet by Jackie Kaye this month. It's a novel about a musician who is found to be female-bodied after his death. While I still think it's an amazing book, one of my students pointed out that it valorises, maybe even glamourises and mystifies 'passing'. I think it's a strategy that's essential for what the book is trying to do - completely naturalise the identity of the deceased hero, and I really appreciate the effort. But it does it by having this Real Man - handsome, masculine, very heterosexual, tailored chap who nobody 'clocks', not for a moment. Which is tricky - what about people who can't pass, or whose gender expression is more ambiguous?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:00 / 03.03.06
Do trans people measure the sexual 'authenticity' of other trans by the success of their trans strategies (from dressing to surgery)?

Do non-trans people measure the sexual 'authenticity' of other trans by the success of their trans strategies (from dressing to surgery)? I.e. If I didn't know that she wasn't born a woman and we don't tell anyone of our love, whats the harm

Do some trans consider other trans as non-trans by their inability to hide their birth-sex?


Yes to all of the above, depending on individual and cultural circumstances, unfortunately. Authenticity is a really difficult and contentious topic in trans communities. and it relates on an individual level to a transperson's perceived success at 'passing' (by which I mean, the strategies used to be visibly coded as a different gender.) In a weird way, dividing this question of authenticity between 'internal' trans community issues and the 'external' issues of non-transpeople conceals the enormous divisions and differences between trans individuals (which make the concept of a 'trans community' inadequate, IMO). This is what I was trying to get at with the questions above about gendered realness.

Argh, it's 33 degrees here and my brane is melting. More after the cool change.
 
 
*
20:03 / 26.04.06
This philosophy/performance by Dr. Talia Bettcher addresses some of the issues here, and may raise others of interest. To sum up:

Sexual violence against trans people is related to outrage at the notion of deception, that trans people are deceiving others. This is because the system of gender expression is viewed as a way of nonverbally communicating one's genital configuration. This nonverbal communication is taken as seriously as verbal communication, and violations of it are seen as just as grave as a verbal lie, perhaps even more so. This places trans people in a double-bind—either we can be "stealth" and not disclose our transness, and if we're "discovered" we are guity of deliberate deception, or we can be open about our trans status and then be treated as a person persistently playing an annoying and childish game of let's pretend. Even trans people become complicit in this double-bind when we criticize all those who take one path or the other.

This reminds me of a comment on an old thread, which I reproduce below:
Can "passing" be thought of as analogous to learning another language? I say this because in my admittedly limited experience of the subject there seems to be an initial phase wherein the "passee" overemphasizes certain secondary characteristics of the stereotypical "male" or "female", much like the way a beginner at a new language would overpronounce hir accent or stick to sentence formations ze is familiar with.

Is gender structured like a language? And if so, are some people repositories of "overdetermined" gender, "displaced" gender, etc.


In this viewpoint, trans men are men, but many of us speak Man with an accent. It's a little odd to consider that people may be hating, hurting, and killing us because of the fact that it's not our native language— if we learn it well enough to hide our accent, we're thought of as immorally deceiving native speakers, and if we don't or if we choose to be open about our native tongue, we're treated condescendingly and we get Talk Loudly At Foreigners a lot.

I suppose this is only surprising to me as a white, English-speaking native of the US, isn't it?

(Re the link: I have not been able to get the video to work, but the audio is worth your attention, if you have the same problem.)
 
 
Sterra
00:38 / 27.04.06
This places trans people in a double-bind—either we can be "stealth" and not disclose our transness, and if we're "discovered" we are guity of deliberate deception

I'd disagree. I mean if gay people don't tell others that they are gay are they involved in a deception?

In my opinion truthfully most people just don't want to know. To make a comparison I went to a southern baptist church in south carolina and at one point we were (supposedly) reading a book. And at one point one person admits that she hadn't caught up to the latest chapter. The response pretty much was "you aren't supposed to say that".
 
 
*
00:41 / 27.04.06
Sterra, I'm sorry for being unclear. I was explaining the popular perception of trans people as deceivers.
 
 
Ganesh
04:54 / 27.04.06
I'd disagree. I mean if gay people don't tell others that they are gay are they involved in a deception?

It's not uncommon to encounter people who believe that, yes, a gay person who's not wearing their 'I AM TEH GAY' t-shirt' is practising deception - particularly if, by omission, they allow others to assume that they're heterosexual. I've been in that situation several times.

With trans people, I would imagine it's similar or worse.
 
 
elene
11:19 / 27.04.06
As far as I know no one's felt I've been deceiving them since I stopped passing as a man. I haven't got that close to someone new in all this time, so close I'd need to tell them about my trans nature, so it's hard to tell. I find it hard to believe I pass that well anyway. Over my shoulder (one gets to see this while trying on cloths) I look incredibly solidly built. I think.

On the other hand and surprisingly for me, some friends felt deeply deceived when I first told them about this. I should have told them long, long ago, they say, and they may be right.

I'm shocked that just being trans makes some people want to completely destroy one, and that they clearly feel justified in doing so. Does this too spring from a perceived deception? One person with considerable power and influence in my life told me that no one could ever have any respect for me now. People can be so vicious about this, and it's odd how weak this leaves me in their eyes. They are sure they have the might of prejudice behind them, and I fear they do. For this particular person I'm definitely no longer a man, but I seem to be something less than a woman. She doesn't like other women though so that need not in fact be the case.

In my youth several people felt I'd deceived them at various times, and one got very obnoxious when I told them I was gay or later bi, and when it eventually happens again I don't doubt it'll be much worse now.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
20:16 / 07.05.06
Very interesting topic... ideologically, i definitely hold to the view that trans women are definitely women, and trans men are definitely men (ie, "trans women" as a category within "women", and "trans men" as a category within "men"), and (largely because my closest friend, without whom i probably wouldn't now be alive, is a trans woman* and the secretary of a trans-and-intersex-women's support group) tend to shout at people who think otherwise...

on the other hand, from an emotional point of view i must confess to feeling slightly differently about trans men than i do about trans women (as i'm a newbie to Barbelith, i should probably point out a couple of things about my own identity/background here: my gender/sexual identity floats somewhere between "male=presenting androgyne" and "queer hetero man", but, due to various events/experiences in my life, i have something between a phobia and a prejudice towards, and find it almost impossible to speak to, non-queer men), in that, in my head, where "women" is (sometimes) shorthand for "generally nice, non-oppressive people who i feel comfortable talking to" and "men" is (sometimes) shorthand for "generally scary, oppressive people who i don't feel comfortable talking to", trans men don't register as "men" (although they do register as "men" in the rational/classifying side of my mind, but often the irrational/phobic side wins)...

(bloody hell, that makes me *really* look like a complete fuckup... i do recognise the irrationality of my own emotions there, and have some success separating them from my rational thought - for instance, i'm nowhere near as androphobic in online interactions as i am in "real life"... also, it's probably worth noting that gay/bi/queer men also don't register as "men" for me in a negative way, so this could just mean that i think of "trans men" as a category within "queer men"... also worth noting that i don't actually personally know any trans men in meatspace, and hence am quite pleased to find quite a few of them here...)

Oh yeah, and Janice Raymond can fuck right off. Put her in a steel cage with "Doctor" Money and make them fight to the death, whoever loses, we're all winners...

* it's also worth noting that the aforementioned friend [who doesn't currently have an internet connection, but who i'm intending to get one in order to introduce her to Barbelith] also identifies as intersex, and actually believes all "primary" transsexuals to be undiagnosed/misdiagnosed intersex people whose brain sex happens to be the opposite of their assigned gender... tho that doesn't invalidate for her the label "transsexual"...
 
 
*
22:09 / 07.05.06
I don't have a lot of time but I wanted to post briefly and say that you're not going to get attacked for that ambivalence about trans men; not by me, anyway. I think there are more effective ways to make the determination about which men are going to feel safe for you and which are going to feel phobia-inducing than putting queer&transmen in the former category by default and hetero cisgender men in the latter by default, but I have a lot of sympathy for that classification system myself. Due to similar problems, it was difficult for me, and still is to some degree, to articulate my own identity as a man. I finally realized that it is transgressive in a very positive way to be a man without the attributes which I associate with "man" and find troubling, so I'm struggling to do that. But I think Ganesh articulated this in an interesting way when he said that trans men as well as gay men (perhaps especially gay trans men?) often have had to examine their articulation of manhood/masculinity in a way which makes us more sensitive to certain social dynamics, and perhaps that removes some of the discomfort for you, as well as others that I know of who have similar feelings about trans men and non-trans men.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
08:56 / 08.05.06
I can't say that I can speak with any authority on this, mostly because I'm philosophically and personally indifferent to the subject. However my personal experience might offer a different insight/thought about it.

I used to work for and with a post-op transgender from man to women. It may have been because of my genral indifference but it was only after six to nine months of working with Cherise that I realized she had once been a man. It was only after this realization that I had an enlightening discussion with Sue, who told me that Cherise 'yes Cherise was always that aggressive and a 'control freak' even before the operation, and of course her sexual orientation hadn't changed.... ' (she desired women and so became one).

The somewhat indifferentist point of the story is that neither her character, sexual orientation, liking for over-powerful (350+ bhp) cars, and her liking for Jaeger suits can be understood as anything but social-cultural constructs. In other words her gender was as much a construct as her consumptive desires.

Without wishing to be essentialist about this, perhaps the only difference(s) between the genders remains that women can biologically have children and that there bodies are still marked by the social as inferior. To engage in the process of 'becoming woman' does not appear to fundamentally change the person engaged in this. Actually as I write this note I'm rather pleased by this because I've never been to happy with the alternative that changing of a physical body/gender might result in a radical change in the subject.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:25 / 08.05.06
I think probably the most revealing and interesting thing about that is that these conclusions were reached on the strength of acquaintance with one transwoman, and also without having any experience of that transwoman before transition. I suspect that one of the ways in which transpeople passim either retain or acquire traits socially ascribed to the feminine is that they are opened to ascription - everybody gets to have an opinion on you, and in fact it is considered strange not to have one. Once Cherise's status as transwoman was revealed, it became incumbent upon the observer to have an opinion on how much or how little she differed from the pre-realignment article, whether or not the observer had actually met him (as she was then identified).

I think we'd probably need a broader analysis pattern to determine whether gender realignment affect broad change in the subject, and for that matter whether those changes in the subject are themselves socially determined.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
14:23 / 08.05.06
Natty Ra Jah: I think that if you met some transmen, you'd probably find that some would set off your 'androphobia' radar and some might count as 'queer' in the sense you describe, regardless of their sexual orientation. I know some transmen who are quite macho, sexist and "boysy", and am quite happy to avoid them when I come across them.

(Speaking as a transboy/transgendered male here.)
 
 
*
14:39 / 08.05.06
Thanks, Haus. SDV, I don't know if you got that. Before you realised that Cherise had been assigned male at birth, did you consider her behavior aspects of her gender, or aspects of her personality? I'm a soft-spoken man, and would likely have been even had I been raised male. I had no interest in sports really, I read a lot as a kid, and being polite is extremely important to me. These are things which make me not so different from many another man. They're facets of a particular kind of manhood which is just as valid as any other kind. But when I disclose to people that I was assigned female, suddenly these traits seem to them to be the product of being raised as a woman, or an indication that I can never truly escape my "real" (!) gender. Or better still an indication that trans men are "safe" in some way that "regular men" aren't, because having lived as women somehow leaves a mark on us that makes us kinder and more noble or something like that. And these might be people who normally avoid thinking of these traits as gendered, who might think "Right on!" of a non-trans man who is gentle or a non-trans woman who knows a lot about cars.

My father told me when I came out to him that I wasn't masculine enough to be a trans man. I asked him if my mother (who had just come in from repairing a motorcycle) was feminine enough to be a woman. He said she was feminine in her own way. Many people cannot observe my mother's femininity, or at least it's not obvious to them. My father could not observe my masculinity. But I was the one whose gender he felt he had the right to make judgments about.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
15:52 / 08.05.06
Haus,

I'm afraid it's simply ludicrous to raise the concept of 'opinion' given this context. If you read (Id)dentity's following note it is also merely 'opinion', except that that he is speaking from a different personal experience. Are you then addressing those who speak of personal experience and commitment on such topics or what?

The issue of whether a personality might be a non-socially determined hadn't occured to me, in part because the idea that someone might seriously believe that behaviour and personality could be (for example) genetically determined... (genetic essentialism is such a socially and politically dangerous topic...) as opposed to being socially constructed.
 
  

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