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Trans men/women and men/women are/are not the same

 
  

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Ticker
16:17 / 24.08.06
Men are treated better than women - that's what feminism is all about and if it's not obvious to you (it is to me) you'd better just accept it in this context.

Er, this maybe part of what is bothering me. Specifically:

Men are treated better than women - that's what feminism is all about

I'm young enough to have benefited massively from the first and second waves of feminist activism where this original premise was a core belief. However in my flavor of feminism it isn't restricted down to the equality of the biological sexes. For myself while I see areas of great need on the front of gender equality it manifests through the use of feminism as a means to liberate humanity from many forms of oppression. In fact if the goal of feminism is reduced to just the battle of equality between the biological sexes it becomes an archaic obsolete world view.
 
 
*
16:31 / 24.08.06
The trans man who showered at MWMF in 1999 was Tony Barreto-Neto, so maybe you can find more facts about that incident with the aid of his name.

(I do not advocate trans men in women's space, as apparently does the author of the linked article. I find the article confusing with regards to what is actually being advocated.)
 
 
elene
09:53 / 25.08.06
I suppose it was time to think this through again, I've been avoiding it for years.

Concerning the 1999 confrontations, Ex, this is how GenderPAC described them. The festivals account is completely different though. And, by the way, many more such documents are collected in Emi Koyama's Ultimate Michigan Handbook.

I was trying to provide a rough idea of the original roots of this disagreement - sorry if I keep repeating myself - but I don't know how exactly the organisers of the festival understand trans people today. I get the impression that, having watched many women become men in recent years, they are now more likely to understand this process as a genuine change than as a sort of masquerade, as they originally did. If that is the case, then this ongoing exclusion of trans women may indeed be a product of transphobia.

I also know the festival organisers call us confrontational even when we only try to teach. Camp trans just being there is apparently confrontational. Nevertheless the 1999 action was genuinely confrontational, in my opinion.

The popular and intuitive "no penises on the land" slogan, and the desire to exclude men that it represents, mean, in as much as trans women are identified with men either through the notion of "once a man always a man," the genitals of pre- and non-op transsexuals or the accumulated profit from former male privilege, that their exclusion will continue to be seen as legitimate by many. There is a firm intent to exclude men, for what are seen as legitimate reasons, combined with the potential ambiguity of trans people. It's seen as legitimate because society is structured to support men, and until lately, only men.

The ambiguity as well is genuine. When Wilchins brought a pre-op mtf and a post-op ftm transsexual with her she was promoting gender ambiguity as clearly as she could. This is certainly activism, promoting what many would recognise as a valid cause. Wilchins is trying to show everyone that you don't need know whether someone is really a man or a woman, that it doesn't matter, that all that matters is that they be good people, in this case that they stand on the side of women. Unfortunately doing this at the festival was interpreted by many as a violation. It's meant to be a safe space. There's a conflict of needs.

The action certainly polarised opinion, with many siding with her, with us, but unless polarisation was the only aim ... well, on consideration it probably was. Perhaps such polarisation and self-promotion is an unavoidable part of the process of changing people's understanding of realities like sex and gender and their relation to power.

I'm all for Wilchins standing up for everyone as opposed to those who only demand post-op trans women be let in, but if this succeeds it'll cost some festival-goers their sense of it being in a safe space. Perhaps that's fair enough, but I'm not sure.
 
 
elene
09:54 / 25.08.06
in my flavor of feminism it isn't restricted down to the equality of the biological sexes.

No one's saying equality's the only thing that matters, xk, but it's of primary concern to many people.
 
 
Ticker
19:16 / 25.08.06
No one's saying equality's the only thing that matters, xk, but it's of primary concern to many people.

I know but it reminds me of people who object to the use of racial slurs but don't examine their racist behavior in other ways. It's a shallow reading of a progressive philosophy that feels crappy to me.
 
 
elene
21:03 / 25.08.06
It might well be philosophically shallow, but that’s hardly relevant, xk. It’s politics. It doesn’t require a philosophy. It requires nothing more than a need must be filled.
 
 
Ex
21:13 / 25.08.06
xk, I know it's useful to have striking and powerful comparisons, but I think that race analogies are a bit dodgy (see this thread for some reasons) and using racial insults when you're making the comparisons may make the board a rather painful place for readers (this thread has some discussion spinning off that).

I've been reading this thread a bit tentatively in case something particularly sharp came up relating to my gender identity/sexuality - it was rather a left-field poke in the eye to come up against a racial slur.

Thanks for the ongoing discussion.
 
 
Ticker
16:07 / 26.08.06
thank you Ex

I am reading those threads.

I apologize to anyone I caused discomfort to.
 
 
Ticker
16:10 / 26.08.06
It might well be philosophically shallow, but that’s hardly relevant, xk. It’s politics. It doesn’t require a philosophy. It requires nothing more than a need must be filled.

elene, I'm not tracking with you on this. What drives politics if not a philosophy embedded in an agenda?
 
 
elene
17:11 / 26.08.06
I mean that one does not need a philosophy to recognise that one's kind is oppressed and to work to end that oppression, xk. A political agenda can be quite simple and direct and nonetheless convincing and effective. Philosophy might certainly help one not to take account of one's own best interests alone when changing the world, but it won't change the world. Only need and opportunity will do that, in my opinion.

If philosophy does not put the needs and rights of women first, who’s are first then? When we think of “one” or of “man,” who do we mean? What are the attributes of the default person for whom we seek to remodel the world with our politics?
 
 
alas
18:06 / 04.09.06
This article makes a case for including ftm's in women's spaces, specifically the MWMF, but for "welcoming them as sisters," not brothers. She concludes:

Some people — I’m among them — worry that the trans movement is encouraging our most masculine women to abandon their female bodies for male ones. We worry that instead of fighting a world culture that discourages women from being strong and masculine, they simply give up and decide to join, well, “The Man.”

Of course, many trans men continue to identify strongly with the lesbian community, calling themselves — as Sam does — gender queer. And Sam assured me that he is a feminist. In fact, he said his activism on behalf of women is stronger than ever.

THESE WORRIES OF some lesbians, however, aren’t illegitimate. Think about breast augmentation, as opposed to breast reduction. We can support an individual’s right to enlarge her breasts, and even celebrate her choice, while still worrying that such a choice is a concession to the dominant culture that tells us that women’s bodies must look a certain way.

Even so, we know that there is always going to be body modification of some sort or another.

After all, we all do things to modify our bodies. We go to the gym. We color our hair (mine changes color several times a year). We pierce and tattoo and take pills and have plastic surgery and tan and wear makeup. I understand about feeling more comfortable in a body that’s a certain way. I think all of us do.

But is it necessary, really, to also take on a male identity?

I wonder if trans men like Sam, who aren’t planning on changing their vagina to a penis and so who still are, technically, women, could think about keeping the female pronoun even as they “masculinize” their bodies.

Instead, let’s expand our definition of women to include the gender queer, to embrace people who have more male bodies, even when those bodies are achieved through hormone therapy and surgery.


Obviously, she doesn't seem to be able to think about how hard, potentially life-threatening, this approach would be for the individuals who have to live in this binary gender world while going by the "wrong" pronouns. They get to be the guinea pigs...

And, this is less-well-formed in my head, but I'm thinking about what might be lost in this utopian world where "she" becomes, ever more increasingly, defined as the "flexible" pronoun, where "he" would mean, increasingly, something quite distinct (essentially "male born men" only only by this standard.) This argument's goal of "she" as an open and accepting category reinforces the idea that men cannot be flexible or ambiguous in anyway about any aspect of "masculinity." The idea that women are "inherently" more flexible, more able to expand and adapt to suit changing times and other people's needs... This gendered understanding of "flexibility" is part of sexism, also...

(I think I remember Judith Halberstam critiquing "flexibility" and its connection to globalization also...must think.)
 
 
*
22:51 / 04.09.06
That article makes me really angry. I hate when non-trans people speak for trans people and try to explain to us how we should or should not deal with our transnesses from an utter lack of experience. It's terribly patronizing, and it comes from such a position of privilege. I feel totally disempowered sometimes trying to educate non-trans people, because when the first thing people know about me is that I am trans, it seems like it invalidates everything I say about transness in their eyes. I don't know how to get out into the world the simple message that trans people are who we say we are, we're not deluded, and we're not trying to delude anyone else, when there are well-meaning people promulgating the opposite message to much greater effect. I feel so frustrated about this right now.

I know you know all that, alas, and you weren't promoting the views in that article, but I just needed to say it. I often try to talk about trans issues somewhat dispassionately, because I suppose that people might be more inclined to respect my opinions then, but I can't always be dispassionate about it.
 
 
Ticker
18:52 / 12.09.06
I mean that one does not need a philosophy to recognise that one's kind is oppressed and to work to end that oppression, xk. A political agenda can be quite simple and direct and nonetheless convincing and effective. Philosophy might certainly help one not to take account of one's own best interests alone when changing the world, but it won't change the world. Only need and opportunity will do that, in my opinion.

If philosophy does not put the needs and rights of women first, who’s are first then? When we think of “one” or of “man,” who do we mean? What are the attributes of the default person for whom we seek to remodel the world with our politics?


I suspect we have different definitions of philosophy as to paraphrase you:

"Only need and opportunity will change the world"

...reads to me as a philosophy.

If philosophy does not put the needs and rights of women first, who’s are first then?

For myself it is not about the needs and rights of any group first or before another group. To use the binary gender model women are not advanced by men being second placed that is merely an inversion of the oppression. To use the non binary gender model gender born gender oppressed people are not advanced by transgender oppressed people being second placed. The idea of a group which has its needs placed first in any social agenda is automatically flawed and I believe the conflict over the slot is a legacy struggle from the overall system of oppression.

The system says only one group is the most privilaged and while we pass that crown around someone else will always be underfoot. The goal must be to willingly dissolve that system of privilage and to refuse the crown unless we all share it.
 
  

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