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Underground > Comic Books >

The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Black Dossier

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12:37 / 07.12.07

I think you need to remember pacing. The spaceport sequence was primarily a spectacular way of framing the chase sequence - a necessarily tense episode before the big climax. I'm not sure a nice friendly time spent with a relatively sympathic and sympathising antagonist would have benefitted proceedings at that point in the narrative. Of course, that's not to say that more couldn't have been done with it, or that a Quatermass sequence couldn't have been used to create the same kind of effect.

Also, as you've acknowledged, the spaceport sequence was a way of highlighting the cracks - the colour and magic of the Sixties AND the forthcoming appearance of the BW (the way these two resonate together makes them pretty much synonymous in my mind) - in the drab grey space that the comic-strip inhabits. And, you know, it doesn't really matter that DD was set in the future, does it? He's very clearly a product of his time.

Why a problem with this and not the 1984 elements?

13:16 / 07.12.07

Dare raises interesting points. Dare was very much a product of the fifties and he reads as being a man out of time almost. He's clearly a very 1950s man living in a possible future and as such it makes sense, to me at least, that he should be present in the 1950's. When I saw his name mentioned alongside Jet Morgans I did briefly think that they were anachronistic but how much more of an anachronism would they be in the time periods that there stories were set in?

I wonder what the implications are for other men out of time such as, for instance, Richard Greens Robin Hood?

Is it as simple as the 'prime' original figure is the one that is extant in the Leagues world or is it possible there are multiple versions?

How do modern revamps of historical characters act in the Leagues world? If a time traveller journeyed back from the late fifties would he meet a substantially different figure to a traveller from the early 80's? Would a traveller from the Leagues today be slightly baffled as to why a Rodney Trotter lookalike is running around the green sward?

A beautiful tunnel of ghosts

13:35 / 07.12.07

I understand the need for a dramatic setting, but as you've written, I think it could have been done in a different way that, to me, would have retained a sense of internal continuity as well as serving the needs of the story.

A character like Quatermass could have been an effective antagonist who was revealed to have more in common with the protagonists than his companions. In addition, it could have given the 'real world' sequences a sense of hope for the future in terms of the antagonists' motivations, perhaps with Quatermass' intelligence and intellectual curiosity overcoming his allegiance to the government.

However, that wasn't the story that Moore told, and like Marc , I was disappointed in Alan and Mina's retreat from the 'real world'. To a certain extent I felt that was more Moore metatextually thumbing his nose at his publishers, as his characters escape, Flex Mentallo-style, to the realm of the imagination, presumably to reemerge for the next volume from the new publishers.

But anyway, the Orwellian references didn't jar me as much - although for me they were as internally as inconsistent as the Anderson and Hampson references - but I thought that these seemed again to be background set dressing: Wharton and his influence are entirely absent, his murder is a MacGuffin, and the architecture of his government seems to have been dismantled almost completely, to the extent that its purpose is only to include the reference, again without adding anything to the story.

14:20 / 07.12.07

In addition, it could have given the 'real world' sequences a sense of hope for the future [my italics] in terms of the antagonists' motivations, perhaps with Quatermass' intelligence and intellectual curiosity overcoming his allegiance to the government.

Ye-eah, but surely you'd only want to do that if you actually wanted to do that, which I'm not sure Moore did.

As for a metatextual thumbing... well maybe, but I think there are more immediate and likely explanations.

The Natural Way

14:29 / 07.12.07

'1984' was originally '1948' anyway.....

But moving on. If Moore was thumbing his nose at DC, it was definitely a happy afterthought. I feel like a stuck record, but I'll say it again - the book was one big build to the BW reveal, and the BW - what it is and what it represents - is at the heart of LOEG cosmology; the cosmology that Moore, in Vol 3, will completely unpack. By the end of the dossier, he has to take the story to the point that it's wading through 4d waters because the scene must be set for the next act, thematically, metaphysically and narratively. So nothing about the end is surprising or puzzling or, at the heart of it, a snub - it's essential to the flow of the piece as a whole (and by that I mean the entire arc of all the books) and it makes perfect sense.

I do agree with Granny, however, that it would have been nice to clock up a few more 'ordinary' advbentures before we take the express route to the end of the world, but at least most of those adventures have been inferred to the point that they're jostling around at the back of the brain unformed, but, nevertheless, very much present.

Janean Patience

16:22 / 07.12.07

I ain't yoh Granny, boy...

The Natural Way

20:44 / 07.12.07

Indeed you are.

Haus of Mystery

21:23 / 07.12.07

Granny Pigs.

01:21 / 08.12.07

Not getting all the references is part of the fun. I understood about half of Orlando's journey...but enjoyed all of it because you know you'll find out who was who and why later.

Ironically, I'd argue Orlando's journey is the best of the Dossier sections because it works as simultaneously a bunch of fictional references and a story unto itself. It's a cool concept, to follow the whole life of an immortal person, and in this case, the far past, the myth and the history are essentially one, so it wasn't hard to follow. I think that section was a great example of what the Dossier sections could do, create character rather than just allude to existing characters. By the end of the Orlando section, I know who this person is, and I'm happy to see him crop up later in the book.

As for the Britishness, I think that's a valid defense of Moore's intent with the work. I don't think it's a total failure, or even a failure at all, if you don't get much of what's going on, it just makes it less enjoyable. What magnifies the problem with the references is primarily the middle section set at the school, where "So, Harry Lime is in charge of MI6" and revelations like that are the substance of the work, not just a bonus on top. I'm familiar with Harry Lime, but just the concept that the character is the head of Mi6 doesn't give me a charge on its own, any more than the simple gathering of a bunch of pre-existing characters into a group does. That's LXG the movie, the book worked because it used what those characters already had and expanded them into a new arena, with more depth and previous implicit themes brought to the fore.

That's really what Moore has been doing his whole career. This book takes the deconstruction and reconstruction Watchmen/Miracleman did to the superhero, and applying it to the entirety of fiction. So. in the same way that Watchmen is enjoyable, but may not have the same meaning for a non superhero fan, non UKers won't get everything that Brits will, but can still enjoy it. And, I'd like to say that despite my issues, the book still has some fantastic moments, and makes me very eager to see where things go in Volume III.

09:30 / 08.12.07

you're all talking about quatermass like he's not in it elsewhere...

Janean Patience

17:36 / 08.12.07

Which is one of the disadvantages of using characters still protected by copyright. Quatermass would be superbly suited to a 1950s League, and Moore could do so much with a monomaniacal man who believes the furthering of science is worth any risk to the human race. But because he's not well known enough to be a nudge-nudge-wink we-know-who-he-really-is character like Jimmy, he's relegated to a cameo when he should be centre stage.

22:32 / 08.12.07

I'd argue that Quatermass is well enough known to genre fans. Maybe moreso that Quatermain...

00:48 / 09.12.07

I knew of Quatermain (as a Doc Savage/Indiana Jones ancestory, so to speak) but had never heard of Quatermass... and I'm quite reasonably well-versed in 'genre' stuff. (not trying to be contrary, just providing a perspective/chiming in about the Q's)

13:46 / 09.12.07

By the by several Quatermasses appear for a cameoat the climax of Scarlet Traces by glorious D'Israeli and Edgington.

15:59 / 09.12.07

There are quatermass references in the black dossier though
specifically to the astronught alien in the cathedral from quatermass 2 - th eone that mina gets the little toy of

20:52 / 09.12.07

no he's in it, as patience says - uncle bernie at the space zoo.

21:24 / 09.12.07

Where's Russ Abbott?

The Natural Way

07:03 / 10.12.07

Basildon Bond.

15:28 / 10.12.07

yahaaaa! Finally picked this up from a small comic shop in a southern coastal city (thank goodness for the gray market!) and it is, to be frank, wonderful. I hadn't read a great deal about it before purchasing, so the fact that there was another comic story with Allan and Mina suprised and delighted me. I was expecting, basically, a compendium of just the background info with no plot thread.

I still haven't managed to made through the beat section though, as with a few posters I found it pretty much impenetrable, but I'm going to give it another shot soon.

The character references were, as usual, top-notch. The ones I got made me feel all smug and superior, but only because of the weight of the ones that I knew I'd missed (who the hell is Hugo, for example?). A few things left me a bit confused though I did spot Emma Peel, but I think that was purely a visual thing, were there any other hints to her identity that I may have picked up on without realising it, or was it maybe just a lucky guess?
Who was Bunters mum, or is that irrelevant?

My favourite moment in the book was probably the foreshadowing that the naming conventions of the XL series gave the reader ("XL...XL...that sound familiar...OH DAMN!" )

Is it as simple as the 'prime' original figure is the one that is extant in the Leagues world or is it possible there are multiple versions?

weeelll, I don't think that would stretch the premise too much at all. I mean, the reformed league had an invisible man based on the television series version after Hawley Griffen was killed so, I guess, it could be quite possible. Especially given the ending.

Speaking of the ending, are we to assume that Prospero is aware of his fictional origins, and does this knowledge extend to the rest of the blazing world (I would assume that Poetry, for example would be aware of his nature, but what about Orlando, or Mina?). What implications does this have for the rest of series?

18:21 / 10.12.07

Who was Bunters mum, or is that irrelevant?

Mother = M = Harry Lime.

"Mother" was the codename of the agent who commanded Steed and Mrs Peel in the Avengers.

Janean Patience

19:57 / 10.12.07

I think Mother may have been used for an English spymaster in some of the early John Le Carre as well - The Looking-Glass War, The Spy Who Came In etc - but I don't have any around to check.

21:35 / 10.12.07

Well, it is also synonymous with authority figures in general - especially among public school boys of a certain generation...

23:45 / 10.12.07

Mother = M = Harry Lime.

"Mother" was the codename of the agent who commanded Steed and Mrs Peel in the Avengers.

*headdesk*

The photo of Mrs Bunter in that panel where he's phoning M totally threw me...and I obviously don't remember as much of The Avengers as I thought I did. Time for a re-watch I think!

02:45 / 11.12.07

Well, it is also synonymous with authority figures in general - especially among public school boys of a certain generation...

Sure, but in a book which is a tapestry of cultural and literary references, I think it's specifically an Avengers nod.

04:04 / 11.12.07

That's not a picture of Bunter's mother, I don't think. I believe he said it was a picture of his sister, who seems to have been killed along with her husband, Lime's predecessor.

Almost done with the thing. It's been slow going and occasionally pretty opaque to my American understanding of pop culture, but I'd say it's as dense and sophisticated a work as Moore's written.

The sense I get from it is that Moore's a great deal more patriotic than he may be given credit for. It's interesting. More when I've finished, but I've enjoyed it despite the culture gap.

Haus of Mystery

06:53 / 11.12.07

Bunter also used to constantly refer to his Mother - his actual one - sending him postal orders or food hampers, but they were often not forthcoming as I recall. Which is why he was constantly nicking the other boys' food, and getting the shit kicked out of him for it.

Ahh public school.

Janean Patience

20:49 / 12.12.07

You can get the shit kicked out of you at comprehensive as well, you know. The posh don't have a monopoly on bullying and random violence. And hooray for that.

David X:Dare was very much a product of the fifties and he reads as being a man out of time almost. He's clearly a very 1950s man living in a possible future and as such it makes sense, to me at least, that he should be present in the 1950's. When I saw his name mentioned alongside Jet Morgan's I did briefly think that they were anachronistic but how much more of an anachronism would they be in the time periods that their stories were set in?

This is one of the things I liked most about this book, the synchrony between the period fiction was published and the world it was published into. IngSoc is so believable as a period in British history just after the war that nobody really likes to talk about, as an experiment that appeared as it it would be endless at the time but only lasted a few years, and now nobody likes to mention Big Brother. Of course Dan Dare and his clean-jawed chums could only be around in the 1950s, when the values of colonialism were collapsing but still unquestioned. These characters are a product of their times, and placed back in those times they fit perfectly. I hope we get to see some of the death-by-gameshow craze that gripped the US in the 1970s.

Patrick MM:Ironically, I'd argue Orlando's journey is the best of the Dossier sections because it works as simultaneously a bunch of fictional references and a story unto itself. It's a cool concept, to follow the whole life of an immortal person, and in this case, the far past, the myth and the history are essentially one, so it wasn't hard to follow. I think that section was a great example of what the Dossier sections could do, create character rather than just allude to existing characters.

The section that's blowing my boots off again and again is Fanny Hill's further adventures. Just perfectly realised in every way, a libidinous exploration of the fiction of the period with all the delicately-worked smuttiness and innuendo that the pornography of the period did so well. The southwest passage line... fantastic.

Haus of Mystery

21:56 / 12.12.07

You can get the shit kicked out of you at comprehensive as well, you know

Oh for sure. Just generally not for stealing tiffin.

Haus of Mystery

21:58 / 12.12.07

Oh and re: Fanny Hill. I think my favourite single image of the book might be that of Fanny and Captain Clegg *ahem* riding the storm. Such a powerful, sexy and ridiculous drawing. The look on her face is priceless.

01:22 / 20.12.07

I loved this, and managed to get of it (including Golliwag's unveiling) while not being British. Benefits of Australia I guess, we get both of the sides of the atlantic.

I love the way, as remarked above, that each fragment of the dossier was a LOEG series in compact. Though I did find the beatnik section a little difficult to break into, I loved the vivid imagery in there. Plus, its in my beloved San Francisco, and I really dug that you got a sense of being there.

I found myself slowing my reading just to tease a bit more longevity out of it, LOL!

Can't wait for the next installment, though I know I will... for a very long time...

though next time Mr Moore, can you make your margins a little wider? Made some of the reading harder than it needed be, with words falling into the centre binding...

07:18 / 20.12.07

I think I'd address that complaint at DC

Our Lady Has Left the Building

08:01 / 20.12.07

I really, really loved this, though I had to skip the Beat stuff, I just can't process stream of consciousness. I think Kevin O'Neill's visuals saved the day, the Almanac stuff at the end of series two was incredibly hard going, so we had some relief.

I'm wondering about the sources for Orlando, the medieval stuff ties in with a few epic poems (I admit I got this from Wikipedia), but is there anything for the pre-medieval stuff? What's odd is that Moore seems to ignore the Virginia Woolf novel, even deciding to throw in a reference to Orlando being changed into the cat from the childrens books instead.

At the end I wonder what it's all about, what qualifies someone for entrance in to the Blazing Realms.

23:57 / 31.12.07

Just seen in the New Year by polishing off the final couple of sections of this - really taken my time with it, savoured it. A few quick points that I've not seen anybody make yet:

The format is highly reminiscent of yr 1950s comics, specifically Eagle. Maybe. Comic strip mixed with prose stories mixed with 'factual' accounts mixed with cut-away diagrams of naval hardware.

I think I was expecting there to have been more versions of the League prior to the Murray group being set up. I've got to admit that I've still not read the Almanac sections of Volume 2, mainly because I forgot they existed until I read this thread, so it could be that the large gaps of time with no league activity might have already been explained there and others were ready for it, but... I dunno. Slightly disappointed on that count. I just thought that there'd have been a lot more of this stuff going on through the years, and that I'd get to read about a lot more of it than I did.

The 3D glasses are the wrong colour. I've no idea what's going on here, but they should have been red and blue, not red and green. I mean, they shouldn't, because the text clearly states that when entering the Blazing World you need a lens of ruby and another of emerald, and that's what the characters themselves are kitted out with, but for some reason it's all been printed in red and blue, and is best read with a pair of red and blue specs to match. I don't understand how it's gone through like this.

You can see how it affects the effect most clearly on the spread with the windows into the overlapping dimensions - if you view them with just yr left (red) eye open, you can still see the blue image and the effect is ruined.

It's utterly bizarre. Is it a printing error? Is it just my copy? Is it just my set of goggles? Is it just my eyes?

Those two complaints aside, I love the book. I need to put a lot more thought into it before I post up why, tho.

07:15 / 02.01.08

on the subject of the googles aand BW has anyone else noticed how certain characters change when you look at them through different eyes? nyalarthotep being the most obvious one, and when you look at him with both eyes he looks very odd, like two images crashing into each other. brilliant use of 3d, easily the best i've seen in printed form.

as for me favourite bit a month in, the bertie wooster section easily.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:03 / 08.01.08

I say, you chaps wouldn't happen to have any BUNS on you, would you?

I love this book, although sadly it is true that the colouring on the 3D bits is fucked up - especially sad since one has to look like a bit of a muppet to read that section. But yeah, apart from that and the fact that Pysse and Shyte ought to talk in prose, it's super. What makes it great is the love story at its heart, arguably (the whole message of the book is parodied in that 1984 sexcomic). It actually is very like a more tightly structured Invisibles!

I agree absolutely with this:

I don't have a lot of time for the idea that the Beat section is difficult to understand.

The Crazy Wide Forever is not a very accurate representation of how Kerouac wrote - it reads more like Joyce, really - but it's also fairly easy to get the gist of, intuitively, and it has a nice rhythm and feel to the prose.

It is not unreadable, or really even that difficult. I think it's hilarious that some Moore fanboys who previously stressed his literary merit in a po-faced manner had a meltdown as soon as he did anything at all challenging. Of particular note, Jess Nevins' annotations to the Dossier, which someone thinks deserve to be published as a book, don't go into detail about this section, as "I find this style of prose almost unreadable, and so I’m refusing to annotate it except for the crucial ones... I just can't bring myself to do it." Ironic that Nevins quotes Auden saying "Other [critics] fail because they are insular and hostile to what is alien to them" above that.

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