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Marriage, weddings, and other outdated traditions.

 
  

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Char Aina
20:00 / 10.02.06
i dont think its all that similar, just a bit like it.
the pressure to do things that are less than perfect in the service of an easy life, epsecially an easy life for someone you care about, is awfully strong.

that's really the only link.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
20:07 / 10.02.06
Another C21 wrinkle: who does the modern etiquette demand one seeks the permission of when considering entering into a civil partnership?
 
 
ibis the being
20:53 / 10.02.06
Jesus I can't believe we have two fucking people on this board who would even consider this shit...

Why?

Or to put it in Barbelith-friendly lingo, care to unpack?

As, presumably, fucking person number two on this board who would even consider this shit, I would be more than happy to discuss it... alternatively, you could just make your little drive-by dismissive snark and go on your merry, self-satisfied way.
 
 
alas
21:19 / 10.02.06
He's going to be paying the wedding...

Do we know this? And do we know that her mom has contributed nothing to the family economy, particularly in unpaid domestic labor?

I don't recall if you mentioned this Elijah...I know it's often done, but in these modern days I here tell that adults sometimes pay for their own weddings...

I certainly hope that my response wasn't snarky or elitist--and I was typing it when you posted your clarification that you planned to talk to her first.

I love my family, even though I disagree with them on issues like this. I say that they can be snarky about city folks and college educated people because, well, I've experienced that first hand. I am not better than them, and I am very sensitive to people seeing me and my hometown folks as backwards white trash--I think it is much more complex than that, as I hope my response made clear.

And, despite everything that others have said about it just being a polite ritual that you shouldn't think about too much, I still think that, even if she thinks it's a good idea for you to ritually ask the father, I would urge both of you, instead, that you do something like talking, after the fact, to both her parents, mom and dad. (If the bride's parents are paying for the wedding, that includes both of them, regardless of if the mother earns an outside income.) And, as I suggested, maybe also have her talk to yours, if she'd be up for it.

That way everyone is included, and can feel they've been paid attention to, it affirms new family connections (which is the good part of the old ritual) but it's not tinged by sexism. Sexism is bad karma, even traditional "harmless" sexism, and good marriages need all the good karma they can get. (I'm joking a little, but I actually believe this describes how things generally work in marriages--conflicts can have very twisted and untraceable roots in seemingly small, unimportant events...)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:27 / 10.02.06
alas, please can you stop being so wise? You're making the rest of us look stupid.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:42 / 10.02.06
Can I propose to alas now, or do I have to ask one of you guys first?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:09 / 10.02.06
In many communities it's deemed proper to ask Chuck Norris first.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:21 / 10.02.06
I don't feel I did anything wrong, so the statements bothered me more then if my question had been about buying a slave, in which case I would have been wrong and deserving of scorn.

Again with the slave-buying, Elijah. Acting like a tool will not necessarily get you put in a drawer.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
22:30 / 10.02.06
alas, please can you stop being so wise? You're making the rest of us look stupid.

It's worse than that, Stoatie. Because alas is sucking up more than her fair share of wisdom, this means there is proportionately less for us simple folk to absorb. In fact, if it wasn't for alas and Haus, I'd have won a Nobel Prize by now. And your head would be freakishly large because of all the knowledge crammed inside your cranium, like the lovechild of Davros and The Mekon.

Mind you, if Flyboy and Jack Fear hadn't got all those grizzly bear genes, I might be banged up in Broadmoor.

And, back on topic, you should only ask her father, Elijah, if you really really fancy him.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:35 / 10.02.06
the responses are being made as though I were some back woods yokel screaming "Git Er Done" during sex in an extended cab pickup truck.

Elijah, as a 24 year old brought up by a radical feminist that is what your opening post sounds like to me.

In the 21st century we don't use certain words to describe people racially because of the history of those words and we shouldn't perform certain actions for the same reason. To ask a man if you can marry a woman is suggestive of the idea of an exchange of some kind. In the same vein I don't agree with the bride being walked down the aisle by her father to be "given away" or a whole host of marriage traditions (the father of the bride traditionally speaks but not the mother), which I regard as primarily negative. In a very real sense elements of marriage prop up patriachy and remain unquestioned but here we can take them apart and I think we should do so. To be confined by the traditionalist attitude of others is to concede to systems that are unjust.

Seeking a blessing from parents is a fair action, it suggests that you recognise them as important people but is your bride to be going to seek the approval of your father? And if not then isn't that uneven?

The point I was making with the above quote from Shaftoe is that I can read something, think "Holy crap, people still buy into this?" and move on without getting in peoples faces about it.

But why shouldn't we get in your face about this if we feel strongly that you're missing something fundamental about the equality of men and women?

1) The main question I have is whether I should broach the topic with her father first.

2) It seems a bit old fashioned to me, personally

I think these points have been answered. Put your bride first, question marriage on the terms of gender equality. It's not just old fashioned, it's a continuation of the idea that women can be given away, traded between men, reliant on the family rather than themselves. It's 2006, women and men have the power to understand and question tradition and consign it to the scrapheap if they so wish. Sure, get married, it's an intimate event between a small and chosen community but think about what marriage is, what those traditions mean and where they came from and whether you want the symbolism of marital tradition to represent you and your marriage and your life with a woman who is in brain and body your equal.

I think I've explained why flyboy is so aggressive about the two fucking people on this board who would even consider this shit... Marriage in its traditional form is a reference to patriachy. We should not do things that we do not believe in when they are so easily recognised and destroyed, giving women away to other men is one of those things.
 
 
ibis the being
22:48 / 10.02.06
I think I've explained why flyboy is so aggressive about the two fucking people on this board who would even consider this shit...

Actually I don't think you have, and I would still like to hear it from the horse's mouth, or perhaps its other end as the case may be.

Marriage in its traditional form is a reference to patriachy

Is it really? By tradition I'm sure you mean the early Christian tradition of marriage only between male couples. Or do you mean the Ancient Chinese tradition of marriage for male couples, to be followed later by procreation with a female mate? Oh I'm sorry, perhaps you were referring to the marriage tradition of the Nuer in Sudan, where sterile women would marry one another? I would go on but I'm sure this has already gotten obnoxious.

My point is Marriage is teh Patriarchy!!!11!!1! is as much an uninformed, knee-jerk statement as You Must Ask Father's Permission to Marry His Daughter.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:59 / 10.02.06
Hmmm. I'm not sure it is. Given that we are most of us raised in the traditions of a property-based society, and one in which until very recently property was not naturally the province of women, and am epikleros was a conundrum to be resolved by discussion between men, I have a feeling that this tradition has a bit more weight for us than those of ancient China.
 
 
ibis the being
23:47 / 10.02.06
Well, the traditions of Ancient China are about as relatable to my life as are the traditions of Colonial America or Medieval Europe. If you're going to trace the origins of marriage (really a fairly huge topic that is being hideously oversimplified and stereotyped here) why stop at Victorian England? Because that's where it's ugliest and easiest to criticize? A look at the histories of all the components of the most stereotypically "traditional" American or English wedding reveals a hodgepodge of practices from many different centuries, countries, etc.... and still you're assuming ANY discussion of marriage or a wedding at all must cleave to such a stereotype, which is unfair and, again, totally uninformed.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:07 / 11.02.06
Actually I was talking about the western marriage tradition that is specifically connected to the first post in this thread and enacted in most churches (and a large number of synagogues to some degree) and some registry offices in the USA and UK.

why stop at Victorian England? Because that's where it's ugliest and easiest to criticize?

No that would be because it's the one that most relates to both Elijah, myself and I suspect to you.

My point is Marriage is teh Patriarchy!!!11!!1! is as much an uninformed, knee-jerk statement as You Must Ask Father's Permission to Marry His Daughter.

Well perhaps you'd like to address the specifics of my post and explain why you object to them as an example of patriachal symbolism. I'd be interested to hear your argument.

I think I've explained why flyboy is so aggressive about the two fucking people on this board who would even consider this shit...

Actually I don't think you have, and I would still like to hear it from the horse's mouth, or perhaps its other end as the case may be.


Perhaps you would like to explain why I haven't explained his aggression? I don't speak on his behalf but our positions on this issue are unsurprisingly close. You see you keep talking about how wrong this is, how marriage isn't patriachal, how flyboy is talking out of his arse but Ibis- you haven't said why.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
00:35 / 11.02.06
As, presumably, fucking person number two on this board who would even consider this shit, I would be more than happy to discuss it... alternatively, you could just make your little drive-by dismissive snark and go on your merry, self-satisfied way.

I could indeed, and I would be well within my rights to. This is one of those issues the correct stance on which is so self-evident for anyone who is at all invested in making the world a better, more egalitarian place - anyone who is at all invested in valuing humanity - that it beggars belief that it needs explanation. Anyone who in 2006 still thinks that marriage needs the permission of their partner's parents is, at best, charmingly quaint, a bit like those people who dress up as Cavaliers and Roundheads and stage mock battles - except, um, I suppose for the comparison to be equivalent they'd actually have to think they really were Cavaliers and blah blah blah.

You weren't the other person I was thinking of, ibis ('twas Benny "I call her Mrs" The Ball), so that makes three. Christ on a unicycle.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
00:36 / 11.02.06
I mean, look who's sticking up for it! Dead Megatron, possibly the most useless waste of bandwidth Barbelith has seen in many a year! What does that tell us?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:45 / 11.02.06
See, now you wish you'd stuck with me.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:49 / 11.02.06
Well, the traditions of Ancient China are about as relatable to my life as are the traditions of Colonial America or Medieval Europe.

Hmmm. Not sure that's true, though, is it? I mean, the laws governing ancient China have never been on the statute books, and have not informed marriage law in the US or Europe in the same way that... well, law in the US and Europe have. So, no, sorry, not buying that. You may feel that whatever sort of marriage you have is unaffected by any of the traditions of Europe or America, but in that case what might possibly drive you to consult the bride-to-be's father before her? Without tradition, and its underpinning in property, that act would presumably be a frivolity - a whim?
 
 
The Falcon
06:30 / 11.02.06
I don't think anyone's suggested it was a necessity to have permission, have they? Rather it might be an appreciated, though evidently largely not by Barbelith, gesture.

Re: 'he's paying the wedding' - sorry, I was talking about my hypothetical one, (which I'd assume to be the case given that her dad has paid for her brother's - which is non-trad, but the bride's dad in this case is dead - and is paying for her sister's this year) not Elijah's.
 
 
diz
06:51 / 11.02.06
Two friends of mine recently got married. The bride's father is a sort of grizzled old biker guy. He's a Vietnam vet, worked on the Alaska pipeline or something for a while, then he fixed motorcycles for a few decades until he was inured on the job in such a way that he is unable to continue doing so. His wife was a junkie and he raised his kids as a single father. Now he's on disability, he has diabetes, he has a hard time making ends meet and has to borrow money from his kids from time to time just to get by. He's a cranky old bastard, frankly, but at the same time he's a victim of a system that sent him off to war and then chewed him up and spit him out when he got old.

Both my friends are progressive-minded people, neither of them like or approve of the patriarchal implications of the groom asking the father of the bride for his permission to marry his daughter, or of the father giving the bride away, but, well, they're both happy, young, successful, well-educated people with bright futures ahead of them, and he's a cantakerous old guy who basically embodies the death of the American working class.

Being able to give his daughter away at the wedding meant the entire world to him, and had my friend not asked him for his daughter's hand in marriage, he would have felt hurt and insulted and that would have caused problems for their relationship for years to come. He doesn't have much else going on for him, and, to be frank, rubbing his nose in the fact that they find his values outdated, offensive, and embarrassing would seem more than a little cruel, and there would certainly be an argument that that would be classist.

I completely agree with the issues that Nina, Haus, and Flyboy have with the marriage rituals in question. They're beyond offensive, and they do in fact help prop up patriarchy. Any argument to the contrary is just naive. But Nina herself has pointed out that she was raised by a radical feminist, and I think Haus is in a similar situation, and I can't help but think they might see more nuance to the situation if they were saddled with relatives and loved ones with embarrassing and ignorant values.

I know my own family isn't exactly the model of progressive values, and as the 30 year old adult child of some fairly ignorant people (with regard to issues of race and sex and gender and sexuality), I know that there are some that just aren't worth going to war over. I mean, yes, her attitudes and expressed opinions are directly supporting all sorts of injustices and things I find horrible and oppressive, but she's my mom, and if she hasn't gotten it by now, she's just not going to get it, and she's just going to be hurt and offended, and all she's going to get out of it is that her better-educated son is ashamed of her because she didn't go to college and works in the mall.

I think my friend was in a similar situation, and I kind of bristle on her behalf at the sort of absolutism I'm seeing in here. I agree that the personal is political, and that the family and marriage rituals are sites of struggle and blah blah blah, but I think sometimes we need to temper our political zealotry with a little empathy. No, I wouldn't do it myself if I were getting married, and I will be happy to make my feelings on the subject known when and where it's appropriate to do so, but I just wouldn't agree that

"This is one of those issues the correct stance on which is so self-evident for anyone who is at all invested in making the world a better, more egalitarian place - anyone who is at all invested in valuing humanity - that it beggars belief that it needs explanation."

When you're dealing with real people that you love despite their appalling beliefs, it can be more complicated, and I just wouldn't agree that there's no grey zone here.
 
 
moonweaver
07:38 / 11.02.06
I gather the girdle of wisdom can be split graciously between alas and diz.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:37 / 11.02.06
Marriage is a pretty weird institution, all things considered. You have to do a number of things which are entirely bizarre in a modern context. And I found out something totally loopy the other day:

in the UK, if you choose to have a civil ceremony, one of the criteria for the place in which you do it (which you can license for a massive fee, with other wrinkles we needn't go into) is that it must be a permanent structure with four walls and a ceiling. No outdoor weddings, no tents, no gazebos. One of the reasons for this, according to the Registrar, is that the Register - the actual physical pen and ink book - is the official document of record. It is backed up to central offce once every three months. So for three months, that damn book is the only parish record of your wedding (or birth or death).

Pen and ink. Hardcopy. Only.

If that isn't 18th Century, I'd like to know what is.

Marriage, unless you're a devout believer, is a consensual game, defined by constituitive rules. I don't mean that it's play, but it is a created thing which derives its existence from our continued engagement with it and our respect for the form. The form book still includes a number of old-fashioned (patriarchal) things as options, and you have to feel your way through it. If that includes asking whether the players in your game will require (or at least wish for) old and frankly silly rules, that's a fair question. (Someone will require something silly. Trust me on this.)

I know a lady who's gutted because her father - to whom she has not spoken for eight years -will not be walking her to the altar to give her away. She's a capable, modern, successful and powerful woman, but this is how the game is played and she feels she's not getting her day because of it. So hell, if you're in the kind of environment where asking for permission is still part of the game, then that's what you do.

Two stories:

1. a friend of mine wanted to marry his lady, who was the child of very religious, north country English parents. He duly went up there, having discussed the matter with his would-be bride (a bisexual atheist who headed her college women's group), and asked her father for her hand. The father, of course, after years of being told to get his nose out of her lovelife, was so amazed and flustered that he completely blew his lines - he was supposed to say "yes", but instead he simply didn't see it coming and defaulted to "well, lad, what are your prospects?" which was what he thought the rules demanded of him. Huge row ensued. (It was all fine in the end.)

2. another friend married a woman whose family on one side are African. The bride's grandmother - an immensely sgacious tribal elder - was extremely concerned because no bride-price was being paid - not because of the money angle. To her, this demonstrated a terrible lack of appreciation for the good qualities of the bride, and she was concerned, quite simply, that her grandchild's future husband might not love her. When she met the groom, it took about ten minutes for her to change her mind and adapt to a new set of game rules.

The point?

Make sure you're playing by the same rules as the bride. She's the one you're marrying. After that, the more you can satisfy those you love, the easier your life's going to be - but don't kowtow at the expense of your own feelings on what is and is not appropriate.

(For my money, asking the bride's father for permission is just a bit weird - unless she wants you to do it because it'll make the old fart's life a Heaven.)
 
 
Ganesh
09:20 / 11.02.06
(Off-topic: could people using terms like "his lady" spell it "laydeee" so I know they're not being wholly serious? Cheers.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:15 / 11.02.06
Jesus I can't believe we have two fucking people on this board who would even consider this shit...

Funny, that's how I feel about most of the stuff in The Temple, but I don't feel the need to mention it.

Except as a sort of limp tu quoque nonargument/snide dig, shuffled in where you hope nobody's going to pull you up on it. I was kind of trying to put together something temperate and olive-branchy to explain how my post was powered by a strong emotional response, probably wasn't helpful, sorry ect, but since you're handing out mugs of STFU I guess I needn't bother.

Good luck with the whole marriage thing though.
 
 
Smoothly
11:28 / 11.02.06
Elijah, I know you're not worried about a negative response but, hypothetically, what if he says no? Would you marry her anyway?

In other words, would it be a genuine request for his permission, blessing or whatever (ie. will his response have any bearing on whether or not you marry) or would it be an empty gesture?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:50 / 11.02.06
When you're dealing with real people that you love despite their appalling beliefs, it can be more complicated

You just said that to someone who was brought up by charismatic christians and is an atheist. I am weeping laughter from my eyes.
 
 
HCE
13:50 / 11.02.06
The thread summary asks whether a specific ritual is lame or classy, and people have weighed in on that. There is heated language on both sides, though you will note that despite all the fuckings, flyboy still referred to people as people, and didn't use this thread as an opportunity to call people names, as ibis did, or slip in a nasty comment about other fora, as elijah did.

To take the thread in a different direction: Smoothly asks an interesting question above, about whether asking is an empty gesture. I was reminded of an element of Iranian culture called tarof. It's a sort of false protest that functions to give people some wiggle room. An example would be a case in which you have guests over for tea, and you ask them to stay for lunch as well. Typically, they will say no a few times and you will ask them a few times. This gives each side a chance to indicate their real wishes sort of obliquely, through tone and body language, rather than very directly through plain speech. The asking thus is and is not an empty gesture: it's sort of a gesture in which the subtext is more important.

Though clearly elijah and his partner will do what they want irrespective of their parents' wishes, is there perhaps something like this in their culture (I'm afraid I don't know which culture/s are at play) that would allow for the couple to get feedback from their families, but that isn't as loaded as the whole asking the dad thing?
 
 
ibis the being
18:10 / 12.02.06
I just want to thank diz for saying what I wanted to say much better than I would have.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:17 / 12.02.06
At the risk of sounding rude, "did" rather than "would have".
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:45 / 12.02.06
Is it acceptable to use "lady" if the person in question actually has a peerage?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:52 / 12.02.06
Certainly not! That's precisely the moment when you shouldn't use "Lady".
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:05 / 12.02.06
You certainly have a point. It would be a damn good reason for marrying her, though.
 
 
Smoothly
23:23 / 12.02.06
At risk of sounding demanding, I'm still kinda hoping for an answer to my question.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:24 / 12.02.06
But what if she's a tramp?
 
 
Bubblegum Death
01:53 / 17.02.06
I never asked my father-in-law. When he found out he kicked her out of the house and she moved in with me. He didn't get invited to the wedding either. The bastard. Of course my wife was only sixteen at the time.
 
  

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