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Marriage, weddings, and other outdated traditions.

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Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

21:02 / 08.02.06

I have purchased an engagement ring for my signifigant lady friend. I don't know when I will propose, sometime in the next few months (we are currently moving into a much nicer place, and I want to wait until we are there).

The main question I have is whether I should broach the topic with her father first. I know her familly likes me quite a bit, so I am not worried about a negative response from the old man, but I wonder if it is still common practice. It seems a bit old fashioned to me, personally, but I wonder, is it expected these days?

Tryphena Absent

21:05 / 08.02.06

If anyone asked my dad if they could marry me before they asked me I would not marry them. In fact I would probably leave them as soon as I found out.

Tryphena Absent

21:08 / 08.02.06

Basically this tradition harks back to a time when women couldn't own anything including themselves. It would be a good idea for you to think about that long and hard and what it would mean in the context of history to ask a man if you could get married to his daughter.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

21:21 / 08.02.06

I'm pretty sure we've had a thread on this before...

I'd say it's polite to broach it with the family- but hideously, hideously wrong to do that BEFORE asking her.

21:27 / 08.02.06

Never mind all that nonsense! What about the dowry?

21:37 / 08.02.06

We have indeed had this question before...ahem!

I'd talk about it with you other half first. Ultimately, although it doesn't hurt to ask Dad for "permission" especially if he holds the tradition dear, and might get offended by not feeling involved, it really is a decision that you and her have to reach together.

Good luck!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:01 / 08.02.06

I think if you want to do this thing properly you really have to challenge the father to single combat, kill him, and put his head on a spike. Then you make off with your intended and her mum and any other female relatives hanging about. And his sheep. Don't forget the sheep.

Sorry, but dude.

Tryphena Absent

22:05 / 08.02.06

How is 1956 for you Mordant?

I'm sorry Elijah, recently I promised to be nice to people on barbelith and I'm really trying but I just... I mean... we're not cattle. We're people. If you ask him you're assigning him more importance than your future wife.

Goodness Gracious Meme

22:16 / 08.02.06

what Mordant and Nina said, basically.

Especially on the 'would probably leave you if you dared ask my father about me spending the rest of my life with you BEFORE checking it out with me first'.

Alternately, you could ask her mother? That'd at least have the merit of novelty to it...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:19 / 08.02.06

I guess if you were planning on marrying her mum there could be a case for mentioning it to her dad fairly early on... avoid any unpleasantness later, that sort of thing...

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:20 / 08.02.06

Oh and congratulations and I hope you're very happy together and that.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:30 / 08.02.06

I asked my lovely wife's father for her hand before I asked her. Mind you, she was in a persistent vegetative state, so I figured he kind of had the swing vote.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:32 / 08.02.06

"Lovely wife"? Haus, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop taking these sleazy and abusive potshots at yourself.

23:14 / 08.02.06

I'm a old-fashion kind of guy. I say: gather a group of marauders, plunder the vilage, kill the family and kidnap the woman to your pirate ship (and don't forget to kick the dog on the way out)

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

23:16 / 08.02.06

wow.

I realize this IS barbelith, and a certain level of extreme response can be expected, but I did not expect the level of sarcasm dripping with venom over a simple question.

Had my post been, say "Since they liked it back then, what do you all think about be buying a black man?" then I would have expected a bit of this.

Many people in my demographic (thats yer 20-30 year olds) around here still hold the tradition of asking the father for permission to propose. I understand that it goes back to the days of women as property to be bartered, but is this still how it is intended?

I live in a part of the states that is predominantly Catholic, so perhaps the fact that I see this happen in almost every marriage is due to the old timeyness of the locals.

From talking to folks around here about it they see it more as a sign of respect for the womans familly, showing that you care what her father thinks. IS there a way to put a modern spin on the tradition without pissing somebody off ya think?

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:36 / 08.02.06

Had my post been, say "Since they liked it back then, what do you all think about be buying a black man?" then I would have expected a bit of this.

That's probably not a good comparison to draw. You asked a question, people answered. They also suggested a way to be considerate of custom and modernity - discuss it with your partner, then ask her father.

23:36 / 08.02.06

A modern spin...

You could shoot her father. With a phaser.

Goodness Gracious Meme

23:39 / 08.02.06

IS there a way to put a modern spin on the tradition without pissing somebody off ya think?

Yes. (congratulations btw, I should have said that) By talking to her first and working out a ritual based on her consent being the prime factor and herideas of how to approach this.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

23:44 / 08.02.06

HAus, I was just being overly defensive after a shitty day on the job, its my new thing, since i gave up hard drinking and kicking the dog.

23:59 / 08.02.06

Oh, poor Elijah.

I can recognize that if asking Pop's consent is tradition in your region and in this particular family, it might be considered rude NOT to follow tradition. And because you love and respect your wife-to-be, you don't want to offend her family unnecessarily... so you propose to her first and then have a little chat with the parents about your plans.

And congratulations to you.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:37 / 09.02.06

Alternatively, ask her mother. In front of her father. Then kiss him squarrrr on the lips/

09:48 / 09.02.06

I don't recall you asking Barbelith's permission. The reason you got snarky replies was because we expect you to ask us first, then you can quibble over whether to ask the father or girlfriend.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:49 / 09.02.06

That's actually a very good point. Have we met this.... woman?

And you know what rhymes with "have we met?"

Anti-het.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

13:35 / 09.02.06

Haus, if you were here right now I would kiss you squarely on the mouth.

Although since I am at work that would likely lead to tension when, in a couple of weeks, we were required to work closely on a presentation.

I need to sleep more...

A

14:04 / 09.02.06

I realize this IS barbelith, and a certain level of extreme response can be expected, but I did not expect the level of sarcasm dripping with venom over a simple question.

If you'd merely posed a hypothetical quandary here, then perhaps the severity of the response here would be a tad extreme. However, you are seriously considering this ask-the-father scheme in real life, a plan which would seem to have the potential for considerable disaster.

Now, in the future, I'm sure that technology will have advanced to the point where a concerned Barbelite will be able to actually physically climb out of your computer screen, grab you by the shoulders and shake you vigourously while shouting "For the love of god, man! Have ye taken leave of your senses?!", should the need arise, but for now, the "sarcasm dripping with venom" is just the Barb's way of showing that- 1) it cares, and- 2) holds grave doubts about your controversial scheme.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

14:10 / 09.02.06

It seems a bit old fashioned to me, personally, but I wonder, is it expected these days?

This was actually the question I posed. I mentioned that I wasn't sure if I should broach the topic with her father, and then asked if the practice was expected anymore.

I was actually hoping to learn where in the world people still do this beside backwater New Mexico where I live, if it is indeed done anywhere else in the world. I would imagine that in heavily Catholic parts of the world it is still done, but I don't know.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:16 / 09.02.06

What I don't get is what if the father accepts and she doesn't? Do you then have to pretend to him that you've married her, while making up reasons why he couldn't come to the wedding.

"It's such a shame you couldn't come to the wedding, Mr Missusprophet, but you're right not to trust the local airline since it was taken over by Nazis. And flights to Mars are a bit dear..."

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

14:23 / 09.02.06

Dammit Haus, cut that out before I start questioning my sexuality and motives.

Talking to people around here yesterday about it, it seems my views of the way it is practiced were incorrect.

The men I know who spoke to the parents of their signifigant others did so after getting an affirmative answer from the lady in question.

So the obvious answer is you don't go to the father and say "I am going to ask your daughter to marry me, are you ok with that" the correct, modern, hip, culturally aware person says "Hey, wanna marry me?" then says "Yo, future familly in law, I'm marrying your daughter, hope you are cool with that"

Next question -

Engagement rings, nice gifts or on the same level as branding cattle?

Ex

14:37 / 09.02.06

It's a point, actually - I suppose how you break the news to the parents depends on how you view yourselves in relation to them.

I know people who think of their partner as 'family', and relations with the inlaws are close rather than just cordial, and the newly-wed is expected to pull their weight in the project of family (hosting, developing emotional relationships, all that jazz).
In such a case, it might be worth you and the affianced having a sincere and moving chat with the parents about how you both want to not only get married, but become part of the team. Possibly at some point they will say 'Call me 'Pop'', I don't know if that happens any more.

Whereas I, being a rebellious teenager at heart, haven't thought of any of my partners as family. I associate 'family' with non-optional encumberances and forced cohabitation and shouting. I've tried thinking of my chums and loves as my 'intentional family' but it's not sticking.
I prefer it now I'm all grown up'n'shit and can see my family as individuals, so I don't want to absorb other individuals into my 'family'.

So - if you're of the latter school, probably just a breezy anouncement and a bottle of champagne.

Good luck!

(And if you get diamonds, make sure they're those Fair Trade ones with certificates that feed donkeys and start schools - I'll try to find the name of the scheme...)

14:37 / 09.02.06

Hey, Elijah, I grew up in a rural protestant part of the US where my brother-in-law asked my dad, and for sure a cousin of mine, who worked on our farm and was like a brother to me, asked his wife's father's permission (after, I think, the two of them had already decided, he'd asked her and given her the ring and all.) And that's really just my immediate family--I have about 40 cousins and more than 150 second cousins, so I'm sure there's a bunch of others out there.

Still, my reaction would be basically the same as Nina's, GGMs and others: Don't do this. (Take the grabbing of the shoulders and "for the love of god" as read.)

When young men do this back home, most of my relatives say "Gosh, isn't that just wonderful! What a polite young man!" (And they think snarky thoughts about how all those citified people just aren't as good as we wholesome farm folks.) When I try to put down the rising bile in my feminist gut, I remember that this is an economically depressed region, and this kind of group solidarity helps give a kind of dignity to a place that is emptying out--my home town's population has dropped by at least 1/4 since I was a child, unemployment is high. Clinging to traditions and having a sense of "honor" are a way to say: we are not "white trash." And I can understand that. But.

This either would have been a deal breaker for me OR--worse--as a 22 year old, I would have tried to see it as romantic. But honestly, a few years later, I am sure it would have festered. I'd have felt like a piece of meat, like the real players in this whole relationship were my dad and my supposed partner. They were the real partners in this affair, talking over my head. Even if I might have seen it as a courtly gesture at the time, what you risk is that, under the surface, it may gall.

Talk to her. Even if she's for it, I'd urge creativity. This is not an empty ritual; Nina, GGM and others can feel that it would/could have real consequences. Why not, instead, have both of you talk to the other parents privately, after you've come to an agreement? It's still a respectful gesture, but doesn't risk setting your relationship up as purely an exchange between men.

A

14:39 / 09.02.06

They tend to give cattle plastic tags on the ear, rather than brands, now, I believe.

Not that I'm suggesting......

14:43 / 09.02.06

"What kind of dowry am I looking at here, Daddio? Pony rides in the park ain't free, you dig?"

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

14:45 / 09.02.06

They tend to give cattle plastic tags on the ear, rather than brands, now, I believe.

So earrings then?

14:52 / 09.02.06

Yes, that seems to be more the way it is done these days, at least with people I know.

Some people seem to still be more traditional about it, especially, as you say, Catholic families. In some places, particularly in the American South and the Midwest, I should think, that sort of thing would be considered gallant and romantic in an old-fashioned way. My husband didn't, but I don't think I'd have minded if he had. I would have found it rather sweet and thoughtful, a sign that he cared about my family and their feelings, as an extension of his caring for me.

Of course, we would have still got married if he had and Dad had said no, so it really would be for tradition's sake only, you know?

Er, and engagement rings are good.

As long as they're not ugly. And a lot of them are. Do you know here taste in jewelry?

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

15:00 / 09.02.06

In order to get her something she would like I was a bit sneaky and walked her into a jewelry store while we were in the mall months ago, just to poke around. Found out what she liked and what she hated.

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