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Marriage, weddings, and other outdated traditions.

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15:02 / 09.02.06

Yet another example of anti-hetero bias on Barbelith with people feeling obliged to imply that someone is misogynistically comparing a woman to a cow, when any decent groom-to-be can tell you that a good woman is worth *many* cows.

I would imagine that in heavily Catholic parts of the world it is still done, but I don't know.

Do any of you remember that part in the godfather where Micheal marries a sicilian girl? He starts off by asking for permission to court her, rather than permission to marry her. He also gets to go for walks with her while followed by a group of women dressed in black. Obviously, thats a film, and things have modernised since then. These days, the chaperones can include people other than the elder women - I know, I did this as a kid - but the bit about the elder women wearing black remains more or less true (its a respect thing or a manifestation of patriarchal oppression, take your pick).

In any case, even in that environment - and its hard to get more heavily catholic that the south of Italy - where permission from the family is definitely a requirement (unless you have had sex, of course, which forces the issue), consent from the woman is always a prerequisite.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

15:11 / 09.02.06

consent from the woman is always a prerequisite.

See, I thought that was obvious.

Honestly, I wouldn't ask HER if I wasn't 99.9% certain she would say yes, let alone talking to her familly. That is part of what suprised me about the responses I got. I can't imagine asking someone to spend the res of their lives with me if I wasn't sure they would say yes, my fragile ego couldn't take it.

15:29 / 09.02.06

permission to court her

There's always the traditional Barbelith thing of courting, marrying and whisking one's object of desire off on a big white horse in one's head, on the basis of her ambiguous femalien behaviour while watching cartoons/spooning/getting married to someone else.

17:55 / 09.02.06

I know people who think of their partner as 'family', and relations with the inlaws are close rather than just cordial[...]In such a case, it might be worth you and the affianced having a sincere and moving chat with the parents about how you both want to not only get married, but become part of the team.

This is the kind of relationship my boyfriend has with my family - well, except that he is already part of the "team," not waiting to join. My dad, stepmom, and sisters love him and he is very much part of the family... big piles of presents at Christmas and the whole shebang. I can see, if my boyfriend and I were to get engaged, him going to talk to my father about it. Not so much as two patriarchs enacting an exchange of chattel, but as two family members talking about a significant life decision. They're close, and it would only be natural for the two of them to talk privately about it if he & I were going to get married (or buy a house, or break up, or make any other big change). I wouldn't be surprised if they've already talked about it. My boyfriend and I have talked about it. My dad and I have talked about it. The three of us together have talked about lots of things, including marriage, having children, religion, and whether or not GWB is the Antichrist.

00:20 / 10.02.06

when any decent groom-to-be can tell you that a good woman is worth *many* cows.

My sister earned my folks cows and a blanket.

Among my people, it's called a lobola. I think they should have held out for more livestock, even though it's technically against zoning regs.

14:11 / 10.02.06

The reason you got snarky replies was because we expect you to ask us first

It may just be the lack of caffeine in my system, but I think that most of the folks in New Mexico (even if you include Taos) might raise an eyebrow (or a pitchfork) or two if the boy were to ask to marry the lot of us.

Am I way off-base with that?

pointless & uncalled for

14:30 / 10.02.06

You clearly haven't thought this out very well have you? This is the 21st Century we're living in. You don't ask her, you wait until she asks you.

Far better to have her as the liberated woman than you be the oppressive male trying to own another person's soul forevaaahhh. Also, should things not work out you can just say it was her that wanted to get married and therefore it's all her fault.

I'd make a great husband me.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:15 / 10.02.06

Jesus I can't believe we have two fucking people on this board who would even consider this shit...

15:28 / 10.02.06

I know what you mean. It is a little...unexpected.

15:35 / 10.02.06

You think I'm making the lobola bit up, don't you.

Mail-order steaks.

And the blanket was hand-woven from some damn place.

Not in the Face

15:50 / 10.02.06

Will it make the actual wedding day happier? And will it really make a difference?

Lets face it, if it is a strong custom in her family and it will cause some sort of unhappiness then you don't really want to spend your wedding day with your in-laws clustering in a corner, downing the free booze and muttering about tar-and-feathering you for failing to follow custom (or so late night telly informs me happens in americana land). Even if you and the woman in question laugh it off as 'one of those things' it may be the easier way that allows you to actually enjoy the day. My own wedding taught me that this event is very much a group exercise in compromise and clashing perceptions.

Also what aren't you going to compromise on?

You (and by that I mean both of you) need to decide what are your fundamental fuck-off points, where the rest of the world can just you know, fuck off. Everything else I learnt from experience is a carefully negotiated agreement of different perceptions.

Unless of course you and she are the type to just overthrow custom for the sake or principle of it, in which case the question is rather redundant.

Oh yeah - and do talk to her about it. It could be that she also wants her parents to be happy about the wedding and would see it as being nice to them rather than placing claim on her. She does have to listen to them for the rest of her life as well.

Personally I knew my prospective father-in-law would have liked to have been asked and my wife was keen on the idea because she wanted to make him happy even though it didn't actually matter what he said, and if he refused then the wedding would have been much smaller. However I discovered, much to my surprise actually, that the actual asking was one of those fuck-off points and having explained this to her we just went ahead and announced it. Being clear about why we didn't 'get permission' made the problem go away.

Final ramble is that if you are asking whether something is lame or classy depends obviously on how you do it. Many lame things have been made classy and vice versa. No real suggestions on how, but certainly I think a grudge-match challenge is a good idea - I knew my father-in-law had a weak knee so was prepared for a fight if he ever did get arsy about it.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

16:36 / 10.02.06

Kanye fucking West on the cross.

I apologize that I asked a question regarding traditions going back hundreds of years.

Of fucking COURSE I knew that in these modern and enlightened times you don't ask for a fucking woman like you were swapping baseball cards.

All I wanted to know was if it was still common practice.

Obviously it is in parts of the world, and it is a shame that those barbarians are living in such horrible, pre-Barbelith times.

Jesus I can't believe we have two fucking people on this board who would even consider this shit...

Funny, that's how I feel about most of the stuff in The Temple, but I don't feel the need to mention it.

16:38 / 10.02.06

You just did, I think.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

16:47 / 10.02.06

Well look at that, I did mention it, here, after being verbally "shaken by the shoulders" (which I can take) and insulted by Shaftoe's comment (which I don't feel I should be expected to take).

I never implied that I was buying a wife, I never implied that I thought of her as property to be bartered for. I never even said "I want to ask her paw because what he says goes even if she dont like me much"

But still, the responses are being made as though I were some back woods yokel screaming "Git Er Done" during sex in an extended cab pickup truck.

The point I was making with the above quote from Shaftoe is that I can read something, think "Holy crap, people still buy into this?" and move on without getting in peoples faces about it.

This air of superiority over us less enlightened 'Lithers is very disturbing, especially when we come asking honest questions.

16:50 / 10.02.06

Less flippantly,

Obviously it is in parts of the world, and it is a shame that those barbarians are living in such horrible, pre-Barbelith times.

Sure. One makes allowances for the cultural milieu that a person finds themselves in. I related a little bit my own firsthand experience with such a culture. But its a little hard to believe that that applies to where *you* come from, and even the people I know in "heavily catholic" southern Italy would find your question to be old fashioned to the point of absurdity.

And, to answer your implied claim that we are being patronising to those different from ourselves, I would say that it *is* a shame that feminism, say, has left some places quite untouched.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

17:02 / 10.02.06

What it boils down to is this was a question about etiquette in a situation I have never found myself in before. The implication that I was in some way being a misogynist pig is insulting to me. There have been many responses on this thread, none of them made me angry, although some were fairly snarky. What makes me angry is that, failing to have anything constructive to say, or advice to give, I got

Jesus I can't believe we have two fucking people on this board who would even consider this shit...

Followed up with agreement.

This statement, and the agreement I find extremely insulting, and again, I am troubled that this response is defended as acceptable.

17:24 / 10.02.06

I still think your dilemma is bizzare, and your responses haven't really clarified it for me. I'm not sure if you have asked your ladyfriend to marry you - I think you are saying not - or whether you intend to broach marriage to your special lady before approaching her father - I think you are implying no.

I can see how one might want to have a chat with a future father-in-law in certain circumstances. I have no idea how this could possibly happen without discussion and probably extensive coaching from one's paramour. To imply otherwise, as you have done, is certainly worthy of the odd raised eyebrow. The fact that you are being so thin skinned about it all, given the actually quite mild challenges you have received makes me think again about the kind of stuff that was being said on the anti-hetero thread. You can't *really* find Flyboy's comments that insulting, can you? How on earth do you get through life?

17:28 / 10.02.06

You know, all jokes and barbelithian self-righteousness aside, It's all up to the specifics of the situation. You're the one who knows the girl, her family, and the environment you both live in. You have to judge by yourself what's the best course of action, as I'm sure you already know. I know in many circles your idea of asking the parents first would be considered "classy" for better or worse.

Also, it's not only the äsking the father for the girl's hand" that's an old fashion thing of the time women were little more than a property and a way to forge alliances. The entire institution of marriage is based on this. In fact, I believe the very concept of "romantic love" as we see it today in Western cultures may be an evolution of that same unfair view of boy-girl bonding.

So, ask yourself, what does your heart tells you, Elijah, and go with it. I'm quite sure no girl can ever resist your mutant purple eyes anyway...

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

17:40 / 10.02.06

I get through life because I am used to being insulted when I have done something wrong. I don't feel I did anything wrong, so the statements bothered me more then if my question had been about buying a slave, in which case I would have been wrong and deserving of scorn.

She and I have had many discussions regarding marriage, and our want to be married. We have not formalized anything as yet, because I have been in a serious amount of debt due to stupidity and drug use and will not push that on anyone.

I should, very shortly, be out of that debt, so I will be asking her to marry me in a formal way.

I'm not sure if you have asked your ladyfriend to marry you - I think you are saying not - or whether you intend to broach marriage to your special lady before approaching her father - I think you are implying no.

I have not formally asked her to marry me, as I just said.
My initial question: The main question I have is whether I should broach the topic with her father first. I know her family likes me quite a bit, so I am not worried about a negative response from the old man, but I wonder if it is still common practice. It seems a bit old fashioned to me, personally, but I wonder, is it expected these days?

See that bit I bolded at the end? That was in my first post, explaining that I was not sure if this was a common practice or if it is expected of me.

So the obvious answer is you don't go to the father and say "I am going to ask your daughter to marry me, are you ok with that" the correct, modern, hip, culturally aware person says "Hey, wanna marry me?" then says "Yo, future family in law, I'm marrying your daughter, hope you are cool with that"

I posted that on the first page, and aside from the flippant dialogue I wrote, it seems to be stating that I have accepted the posed statement that I should ask her first.

And here, at the top of page 2:

consent from the woman is always a prerequisite.

See, I thought that was obvious.

so where exactly is this raised eyebrow coming from, since before flyboy's post I had already accepted the consensus of the posters? Is the scorn because I dared to ask the question in the first place? Perhaps and addendum to the Wiki is in order.

17:49 / 10.02.06

See that bit I bolded at the end? That was in my first post, explaining that I was not sure if this was a common practice or if it is expected of me.

So you weren't sure whether you should ask your future father-in-law or your female companion first, about the issue of marriage (to her)? So clearly you thought consent was obvious, you were just slightly less clear about who you should obtain said consent from first.

And you are wondering wherefrom the raised eyebrow?

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

18:11 / 10.02.06

but why ignore the rest of the post, or the thread for that matter, where i explained things a bit more clearly?

It isn't like i assumed she was her fathers property up until yesterday, when I was enlightened by this thread. I was not clear in the initial post, and had since cleared things up quite a bit. I don't understand why I am still being harped on about it.

I also don't know if that is the proper past tense for "harping on"...

18:26 / 10.02.06

You are just being silly now, Elijah. The question in the thread, repeated by you, is whether you should ask her father first for permission to marry her. *Thats* the surprising thing - that you were or are unsure about who to approach first (despite feeling sure about what she would say). The fact that you assure us that you don't think of her as property - I believe you - isn't really the point.

18:29 / 10.02.06

Is the scorn because I dared to ask the question in the first place?

It might be. It does happen in Barbelith form time to time, i.e. people agressively over-reacting to any opinion/statement which clashes with their own pre-concepted ideas of what is the right thing to think, no matter how much they say they are pro-diversity or whatnot.

18:37 / 10.02.06

Yes, DM, on Barbelith people have opinions. This makes them intolerant hypocrites because being "pro-diversity" means you can never object to anything that anyone says in any way or in any context.

18:43 / 10.02.06

Yes, but having a big swear about how the community has let you down, once again, might be deemed excessive. It's not a hivemind.

Assuming I get married, at some point I will most likely ask my girlfriend's father for his permission - this will most likely be entirely ritualistic, since frankly it won't be needed, but given the family nature of the event, and the oldfashionedness of the man in question, I expect he'll appreciate the gesture and it'll make him feel a little special and involved. Which will be nice.

18:52 / 10.02.06

I am failing to see the horror in this, altogether. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the woman being asked will have ultimate sanction regardless.

18:52 / 10.02.06

how much is the right amount to react?
how does one find out the correct level of reaction to something?

i ask in the interests of always giving a correctly proportional response in future.

18:53 / 10.02.06

Yes, DM, on Barbelith people have opinions. This makes them intolerant hypocrites because being "pro-diversity" means you can never object to anything that anyone says in any way or in any context.

I agree, I just don't see the point of all the hostility that often comes with those opinions. People take it all way too personally

Duncan is right on the money, I reckon, when he says the father-asking is a ritualistic thing and nothing else. Like, you know, marriage

18:55 / 10.02.06

how much is the right amount to react?
how does one find out the correct level of reaction to something?

Hard to tell exaclty, as is all that involves human beings. But no hostility and no personal-bashing is a good start

19:03 / 10.02.06

if it is expected by the dad, it might be a bad idea to do something that could mean it would take you a while to regain his trust and favour.

its a bit like suffering racist language from a grandparent, i guess; you dont want to, you know you shouldnt, but you just cant bring yourself to piss off people who care about you or whom you care about.

it is a bit of a throwback, mind.

perhaps instead you could do some kinda public proposal where the whole family vote on it? one family member, one vote and your spouse to be could have a veto if she doesnt wanna say yes.
you might also want to look into killing a few rival suitors too, just to make it look like you give a damn.
how's your sword arm?

19:09 / 10.02.06

Not a bad idea form toksic up there. Invite the whole family out for a dinner in a restaurant and ask the fahter for permission to ask the girl in front of the girl. It would be classy, without being back-dated, and if you word it correctly, it might even be a bit funny (good story to tell your grandchildren 50 years from now). Two birds with one stone.

And the sword-fighting might even turn her on too, which would make for a great celebration after the dinner is through and the family has gone home...

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

19:10 / 10.02.06

how's your sword arm?

quite good actually. Do you really think I would consider proposing if I had not already eliminated the other suitors?

As it stands now, to clarify, I am going to ask her to marry me eventually, whether her parents say it is ok or not. Afterwards I am likely to ask for her parents blessing. I am tired of trying to explain why i felt personally insulted by the internet, because after thinking about it on lunch, it really doesn't matter, and nobody is going to change their minds.

So, watch the Conversation for an eventual thread about a wedding, and then we can all argue about the validity of marriage as a modern institution.

19:12 / 10.02.06

Are you addressing me, toksik? I'm a bit confused here.

I don't even think it's particularly analogous to racist or sectarian grannies; it's a family ritual, about families. He's going to be paying the wedding. It seems pretty much the least you can do to ask at some point; the alternative is simply telling the father of the bride to be that he's precisely that, which seems in comparison a little rude.

19:14 / 10.02.06

And (I forgot to mention) if you ask the whole family out, belive me, they'll be guessing you're up to something already, which would give them the chance to prepare a non-akward way to let you down in case they (the father and/or the girl) are planning to say "no". I see only advantages with that approach (except, of course, for the restaurant bill you'll have to pay)

19:26 / 10.02.06

My personal opinion would be that it is kind of lame, but I guess if my (hypothetical) fiance (who had already said yes) asked me to talk to her father I'd do so, but I'd find it horribly uncomfortable. All other variations on this I would find bizarre , and I imagine if I was the individual (in some kind of bizarro world) who'd been paternally by-passed I'd find it incredibly offensive, and can therefore understand the heated reaction the thread provoked.
However Elijah has said that he meant the former, I think we should therefore perhaps cut him a little personal slack.

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