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Stupid Music Questions

 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
Mistoffelees
19:30 / 09.07.06
I´ve often wondered about that question. One answer I found for me is the division of mainstream vs. non-mainstream music.

As soon as a band gets successful (enters the charts, Top of the Pops, heavy rotation), it may still be considered as rap/metal/blues, but it then is also pop(-ular) music.

An example could be Metallica. I see them as pop music, even though they once came from metal.
 
 
Jack Fear
20:22 / 09.07.06
Popular music is music that is popular. Music of the people.

Metallica were making music of the people long before they started selling records in any numbers; all heavy metal is pop music. Hip hop is pop music. Country-and-Western is pop music. Indie rock is pop music. Folk and vernacular songs—"I Know An Old Lady Who Swallowed a Fly," "Darlin' Clementine"—are the most poppest music of all.

Once I would have told you that all music is pop music, but I no longer strictly believe that to be true. Jazz, for instance, was once a music of the people—and every few years threatens to become one again; but for now, jazz has largely become a music of the academy. Sacred music is likewise a music of the academy, albeit a different academy.

Ditto most orchestral and art music is academic music—although much of it was, in its day, pop music, and some of it remains so: Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, for instance, is (I would argue) pop music, in that the hypothetical Average Man In The Street might not know the name but could certainly hum a bit of it if you gave him a start—in fact, he might have it as a ringtone: and what's more pop than that?
 
 
Baz Auckland
00:19 / 10.07.06
I always think of pop music as being sort of light rock... at least that's how the record stores used to categorise things: The 'rock' section, the 'pop' section, the 'hip-hop' section, etc. etc.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:11 / 10.07.06
Pop music (1) is what Jack Fear describes it as, although I would add that the borders get blurry when you start looking at some artists who work within genres which are essentially subsets of pop music, but very much aim to be music for "the academy" rather than the people.

There's also:

Pop music (2), which is a subset of (1), but not a very sharply defined one. It could be described as the subset that is most popular, but that's often not true. In fact this definition of pop music could be said to be a genre in itself, although it's hard to pinpoint what the specific characteristics of the genre are, since it's even more magpie-like and ever-mutating than all the other genres encompassed by definition (1)...
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
10:08 / 10.07.06
I dunno. JF's above definition of "pop" music sounds to me like the old saw when a Canadian says "I'm an American because I live in North America. And so are Venezuelans because they live in South America!" True, but in terms of people saying "I'm an American," one does not immediately think "aha, he's from Chile."

I think most people's understanding of pop music, and in terms of Jeremiah's question, doesn't include Mozart or Strapping Young Lad. It's music that is created for mass consumption along a kind of "light bouncy rock" pattern. Or "blandly pleasant," if you want a harsher description.

"Pop" is, from an Eastern/Central Canadian former radio station manager's perspective, the default category for any music that isn't forcefully placing itself into another genre strongly enough to be that other genre.

Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears and Hillary Duff and Lindsay Lohan are all "pop," because they don't rock enough to be "rock" and aren't jazzy enough to be "jazz" and certainly not classical enough to be "classical." You could say that Metallica has recorded popular songs, but if you said "what kind of band is Metallica," I'd say "hard rock" or "light metal" rather than "pop." If you asked about the Pet Shop Boys, I'd say "electronic pop," because they're keen on the synthesizers and the keyboards but are essentially recording "pop" music. Shania Twain I'd call "country pop," because she's found in the "country" section of the music store and throws some steel guitar in there but is essentially not very "country" when you actually listen to the songs.

"Pop" also equals "inconsequential sell-outs" in the minds of avid fans of a particular genre. Being someone that used to be semi-Goth and listened to a lot of Industrial music, "oh, they've gone 'pop'" was a popular disparagement of a band that had gotten some sort of mainstream success and was therefore no longer cool. Skinny Puppy, Ministry and Nine Inch Nails were oft dismissed as having "gone pop."

As a kind of default "non-category," pop is also subject to sort of retro-reclassification. Stuff that is pop may not stay pop. A lot of music that was once created to fill that "blandly pleasant" niche... Bing Crosby springs to mind... is not "pop" any more and has been swallowed by a larger genre like jazz. So a contemporary "pop" group now, in twenty years, might slide into "rock" or a genre subtype that hasn't been created yet. New Order, f'r'instance, were generally considered straight "pop" when they were new, but have been retro-classified as "electronic," both because of the later direction the band took and how "pop" music keeps sliding around and getting re-mapped.

Whew. Sorry about the length there. This was the subject of much debate among programmers when I was the manager of a community radio station, so it's something I can go on about for ages.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:03 / 10.07.06
There is so much so hilariously Wrong in that post, so much that betrays a profoundly stunted understanding of the history and meaning of popular music, that I hardly know where to begin with my sharp-knived evisceration.

How about this: Explain to me, if you would, (and leaving your own prejudices out of the matter) exactly how you extrapolate a particular sound—"blandly inoffensive"—from a word like "pop," which is patently a demographic descriptor and has no musical component whatsoever?

That will do, for starters.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:13 / 10.07.06
Wow, that was... really angry, dude. The guy asked what "people" meant when they said "pop," and I tried to answer as lucidly as I could, if not maybe as concisely.

But please, proceed with the evisceration. Or maybe start a new thread. I think it's an interesting topic.

EDIT: Having read this thread since being gobsmacked by Jack Fear's response, I'm totally willing to say my summary of pop above was presumptive, brutal and kinda ign'ant.

And hell, I'LL start the thread. Why let Jack monopolize the eviscerating?
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
23:44 / 21.07.06
My brother swears by a track from a, possibly, Norwegian guy that features the line "I cry when I come." Any ideas?
 
 
danb
00:03 / 22.07.06
Explain to me, if you would, (and leaving your own prejudices out of the matter) exactly how you extrapolate a particular sound—"blandly inoffensive"—from a word like "pop," which is patently a demographic descriptor and has no musical component whatsoever?

"Pop," was initially a "demographic descriptor," but as a certain style of music became popular, its meaning began to shift to what MattShepherd described, and it came to define that genre of music. "Indie" is going through the same thing right now.
 
 
Jack Fear
01:53 / 22.07.06
My brother swears by a track from a, possibly, Norwegian guy that features the line "I cry when I come." Any ideas?

Seems likely it's a Danish act called Dramaqueen.
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
02:04 / 22.07.06
Oy. That's the one. Thanks.
 
 
gridley
13:23 / 03.08.06
Almost forty years after breaking up, a reformed version of The Zombies (with core members Argent and Blunstone) is currently touring America. Are they still worth seeing? Or are all my fond feelings for them going to be tainted by the experience?
 
 
grant
20:12 / 03.08.06
Who's opening?
 
 
gridley
14:04 / 04.08.06
An interesting set of openers: The Mooney Suzuki, The Fleshtones, The Woggles & Jukebox Zeros
 
 
Seth
08:27 / 05.08.06
I spent three hours last night trying to track down a skinhead compilation called Your Country Needs You. I've been told about the artwork and it states affiliation with www.bloodandhonour.com and www.brotherhood28.com, the latter of which now seems to be defunct. It was some scrawl on the sleeve about Britains "failed multi-racial experiment (might have read multi-cultural or multi-ethnic instead)," and it may be handed out for right-wing recruitment purposes. At the end of the day it might be a home-made comp that some loser has put together, but I still need to exhaust all means at my disposal of finding it without first going insane through reading pages of nastiness. Please trust me when I say that I have legitimate reasons for doing so that I will not go into here.
 
 
*
09:23 / 11.08.06
Wow, Seth, good luck with that.

I have very uneducated tastes, but those tastes think this sounds quite pretty. Is it any good? by which I mean creative, skillful, thoughtful, engaging, worthwhile? Original I suspect it is not.
 
 
Essential Dazzler
19:34 / 13.12.06
Do genres like Grime and Dubstep count as UK hip-hop?

I've described tham as like hip-hop with DnB to friends, but only because I'm really not sure what other terms to use, my music terminology-fu is weak.

How far removed from traditional or "mainstream" US Hip-Hop can it be and still be called Hip-Hop?

Erm... not quite sure what my question is anymore, I'm pretty sure it's stupid though.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
10:57 / 14.12.06
IMO, they're not. UK hip hop is people like Roots Manuva, Rodney P, Blak Twang, Ty, Phi Life Cypher, Klashnekoff etc to me - both the beats and the structure of the MC flow tend to reasonably closely resemble what people from the US would recognise as hip-hop, with the biggest difference being the fairly large reggae influence which can be seen in both a lot of the production values (choice of samples, prominence of bass) and MCs often using styles influenced by reggae toasting as well as by "classic" hip-hop (which is itself influenced by reggae toasting, tho few US MCs other than KRS-One really acknowledge this, but that's probably a separate debate). It's still "obviously" hip-hop tho (ie, if a listener used to US hip-hop but not to UK hip-hop heard some for the first time, ze would probably think "wow, this is kinda different from the hip-hop norm", but ze would probably have no doubt that it was hip-hop)...

A lot of UK hip-hop artists got pretty pissed off when the "mainstream" music press started describing grime as UK hip-hop, because it felt like a denial of the existence of the actual UK hip hop scene, which had existed under the radar of the press since at least the early 90s...

On the other hand, since grime has got big in the "mainstream" and has had some cross-pollination with the US, there have been some collaborations and crossovers between grime and UK hip hop, so it's not totally clear-cut...

Dubstep is even less like hip-hop, not usually featuring MCs AFAIK, and i'd describe it as a hybrid between garage/d'n'b influences and UK digital reggae (what some would call "dubtronica" - people like Zion Train, Alpha & Omega, Twilight Circus, etc). Grime is arguably a hybrid between the same garage/d'n'b mix and ragga/dancehall with maybe a bit of the "party"/dance-oriented end of US hip hop...

(others will probably come along and correct bits of that soon...)
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
15:42 / 02.01.07
Have Muse recently done a song with a very Iron Maiden style riff to it?
 
 
haus of fraser
18:15 / 02.01.07
The Muse track Knights of Cydonia has got an iron maideny type riff and a suitably daft video- check the link if its the right track...
 
 
Peach Pie
03:38 / 03.01.07

Do you think the common notion that there was a musical revolution in the sixties will be upheld in a hundred years time, or will it be viewed in the future as a brainwashing assault on mass consciousness with so much diatonic repetitive pap?
 
 
Pepsi Max
03:39 / 03.01.07
I've described tham as like hip-hop with DnB to friends, but only because I'm really not sure what other terms to use, my music terminology-fu is weak.

Which if you've never heard grime before is not actually a bad first stab at a description. Altho I'd substitute "UK garidge" instead of D&B - but that assumes your mates have heard of that genre as well.

As nataraja notes, there was already a separate UK Rap scene in existence before grime MCs came to prominence.

How far removed from traditional or "mainstream" US Hip-Hop can it be and still be called Hip-Hop?

Hmmmm - anyone can call what they do "Hip Hop", I don't believe it's been trademarked. In the US, there are a whole host of cultural gatekeepers for Hip Hop such as "The Source". Outside the US, it's pretty much a free-for-all.

I suppose the key thing is the mode of vocal delivery. You can rhyme over the top of whatever you like but make sure there's not too much of that singing.

I suppose another way of phrasing this question is: "What artists/tracks do you think fall closest to the boundaries of Hip Hop?"
 
 
Peach Pie
03:53 / 03.01.07

is today's "conscious" hip hop movement really carrying on the tradition of sixties civil rights poetry?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
19:42 / 03.01.07
secret_goldfish, both of your questions definitely deserve whole new threads... i'd attempt responses to them here, but they a) wouldn't be answers, so much as tentative musings, and b) would hardly even scratch the surface...

Very stupid (and possibly slightly strange) question from a vinyl newbie: is it normal for second-hand vinyl records to sound, on first attempt to play them, like the vinyl is absolutely fubar (skipping every couple of seconds, vocals sounding "chopped up", bass distorted beyond listenability, crackle louder than the tune itself) - and then, on second play, to sound slightly crackly but otherwise absolutely fine? Or is my turntable possessed?
 
 
Jack Fear
19:44 / 03.01.07
Depends: how dirty are these records? Sounds to me like the first time through, your stylus is clearing the dust from the groove, leaving it clean for the second play-through.
 
 
illmatic
22:38 / 03.01.07
That's what it sounds like to me. I'd google for cleaning old vinyl if I was you. One of my mates used to put them in a very dilute solution of washing up liquid and then rinse 'em. You can't do that with mp3s.

is today's "conscious" hip hop movement really carrying on the tradition of sixties civil rights poetry?

Well, was the poetry of sixties civil rights movement largely aimed at an audience of white *alternative* music fans? Did it fail to reflect any of the more complex issues and contradictions about race and class and give some nice soundbites for white hipsters to nod along with? If so, yes.
 
 
Saveloy
13:40 / 08.01.07
Question: What was the first jungle tune?

I expect that's as stupid a question as "what was the first rock'n'roll tune?" and as impossible to answer with any certainty, but have a go anyway, please, someone.
 
 
akira
14:33 / 08.01.07
Did Led Zeppelin ever do a cover of Steppenwolf's Magic Carpet Ride? Untill last week I thought it was them and they wrote it, then I thought to myself Robert Plant's voice has changed alot.
 
 
doctorbeck
15:30 / 08.01.07
seth said he was looking for:

'a skinhead compilation called Your Country Needs You. I've been told about the artwork and it states affiliation with www.bloodandhonour.com and www.brotherhood28.com'


so how about a starter for 10, can you enjoy music whose politics really jars with your own? whether it is explicitly in the lyrics / artwork or something the artist has said in an interview.

something i struggle with, am a long time neil young fan but during the 80s when he went all gung ho reaganite asshole i found that Live Rust lost some of it's lustre (as did a lot of his 80s output), skin / Oi! bands are another difficult one as my understanding is a lot of the bands were not nazi but had a sound / look that was co-opted by the fascist movement. tho some were and are odious rightwingers and no mistake.

and of course a lot of bands i think have good politics make awful music (chumbawamba), however when politics i like and music i like come together the effect is often awesome (aretha franklins civial rights soul songs)
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:18 / 08.01.07
I've enjoyed a lotta Norwegian nineties all out Satanic-nazi-fascist-odinist-pureutterhatredandfilthridden black metal for a good 15 years now. It was more than a little off-putting when Darkthrone put that "True Aryan Metal" shite on their Transylvanian Hunger album, but hey, that shit's some of the best there is in terms of music! Ditto for Public Enemy and their Nation of Islam/black supremacy agit-prop.

That said, neither Darkthrone nor PB are for me defined in terms of those appellations. In other words, I generally don't care much about the political leanings had by musicians whose work I enjoy. Luckily perhaps, most out-and-out nazi music (Oi! f.ex.) bores me to blisters and rashers.
 
 
Tsuga
22:24 / 08.01.07
I've actually been looking for a thread about separating the art from the artist, creator from the created, things like that. Not seen it, does anyone know of one? Perhaps I'll start one, but I'll really need to feel like I've got the time to pursue it, y'know?
Forgive the digression.
I'm pretty sure Led Zeppelin never covered "Magic Carpet Ride", by the way.
 
 
Seth
18:13 / 11.01.07
To clarify: my *legitimate reasons* have nothing to do with wanting a copy of the music for listening and enjoying purposes. And no, I can't go into it in public.
 
 
Seth
18:18 / 11.01.07
If anyone's offended that I included links to sites in my post above, I'm very sorry. My motives in looking for the comp (without going into detail) were to assist in taking some positive action against those kind of messages. The links were there as a starting point if anyone was willing to help me look. It wasn't my intention to hurt or upset anyone here.
 
 
grant
19:53 / 27.02.07
Why is "Don't Stop" not the last track of Rumours?
 
 
Jack Fear
20:09 / 27.02.07
Because then the record would only be four songs long, silly.
 
  

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