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Stupid Music Questions

 
  

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Smoothly
23:27 / 27.01.06
I asked for this in the discussion here, and and it'd be a bit rich to expect one of the Music regulars to start it for me, I thought I'd kick it off myself and set a precedent for just how stupid the questions are allowed to be.

So, musical notes. I don't really understand what they are. I've done a bit of reading around, but even Wikipedia soars over my head pretty quickly.

I understand that different notes have something to do with pitch and that this in turn has something to do with the frequency something vibrates at. And I know that the A above middle C is (about) 440Hz. I also understand that the next A higher is 880Hz, and I can kinda understand how 880Hz might share some quality (sound similar to) half that frequency. Well, no, actually I don't really understand it. I'm willing to believe that that happens to be true, but if someone could relate it to something else, I'd be grateful. Colour doesn't work like that does it?

*But*, onward, what's the relationship between an A and a B? Does the frequency of a B have anything to do with the frequency of an A? And either way, what makes a particular frequency a note? If a string is repeatedly plucked as it is gradually tightened, do you arrive at certain points that are somehow special, that sound singular and/or appealing to the ear? Are the notes A - G (right?) essentially bookmarks?

Hmm, that's probably enough for now. I'll move on to keys, chords, bars, beats etc, once I've established people's tolerance and patience. Do tell me if my questions don't really makes sense or if I'm labouring under some odd misapprehensions. I'm quite alive to the possibility that I'm being utterly bone-headed about the whole thing.
 
 
Jack Fear
23:51 / 27.01.06
This is a large and complicated topic, but let me address just a portion of it...

Does the frequency of a B have anything to do with the frequency of an A?

Only inasmuch as the B relates to the A. Because...

[W]hat makes a particular frequency a note? If a string is repeatedly plucked as it is gradually tightened, do you arrive at certain points that are somehow special, that sound singular and/or appealing to the ear? Are the notes A - G (right?) essentially bookmarks?

...the individual notes in and of themselves are arbitrary designations. It's the relationship between them—what musicians call "intervals"—that create our notions of consonance and dissonance.

If we were to tomorrow redesignate "A" as 438 Hz, or 420, or any other number, music would still sound essentially the same—as long as the algorithm determining the relationship from the notes to one another remains constant, it doesn't really matter what your starting point is.

Have you ever used a tape player with a variable speed function? When you play back a piece of music and change the speed fractionally in either direction from normal, the music doesn't suddenly go out of tune—a song that's normally in the key of A will not develop any weird dissonances if it is slowed down to G#, or tuned up to A#, or set to any of the theoretically-infinite number of microtones in between the keys of a piano.

And as any sologuitarist will tell you, it doesn't matter if a guitar is tuned to rpecisely A=440, as long as it is "in tune with itself"—i.e., as long as the relationships between the strings are consonant according to the proper algorithmic relationship.

An absolute pitch like A=440 is essentially a convenience when dealing with ensembles of instruments that have to be in tune with each other. But i you're in a band with four other guys and you all decide among you that A=415 or whatnot, you're going to sound okay together.

Does that make sense?
 
 
Smoothly
00:36 / 28.01.06
Yes, thank you. I was thinking about it in the wrong direction, kinda. The notes are intervals in a scale between one A and the next one (at twice the frequency), right?
So how do those intervals work? Are they evenly spaced? Like steps rising in, um, 'pitch'? Is it a doh-re-me thing?
*Very Stupid Question Alert* Could you add more notes?
 
 
Smoothly
00:51 / 28.01.06
Just to add, on the tuning an instrument to itself thing.
If I set the top string of a guitar to an arbitrary tension, then tune the other strings to that one, will one of those string make a recognisable 'A' sound? Musicians can identify the sound of an A, say, in isolation can't they? I don't really understand how notes can have characteristic sounds if everything is so relative.
 
 
Jack Fear
02:54 / 28.01.06
The notes are intervals in a scale between one A and the next one (at twice the frequency), right?
So how do those intervals work? Are they evenly spaced?


Well, yes and no: no, they're not evenly spaced in the sense that you get a new note every (say) 55 Hz—because, remember, the "distance" between octaves keeps rising as you go up to higher pitch. It's an algorithm. Or a logarithm. Whatever. It's not a specific number, but a ratio.

This means that you can fit the twelve notes of the chromatic scale (black and white keys on a piano) into the 440 Hz range between between A-above-middle-C (440 Hz) and the A above that (880 Hz). But there are also twelve notes between A=440 and the A below middle C (=220Hz), even though the "distance" between the two notes is only 220 Hz. Same is true for the octave between A=220 and low A=110, and for the octave down to the lowest note on an 88-key piano, the gut-rumbling A=55.

*Very Stupid Question Alert* Could you add more notes?

Absolutely. The 12-note scale is a fairly recent Western invention. Many other cultures use microtones—notes that fall between the keys on a piano. Avant-garde composer Harry Partch devised a 33-note scale, which he played by re-tuning a cheap Sears-Roebuck parlor organ. And when you're dealing with fretless stringed instruments, all bets are off. Theoretically, every single-cycle difference between pitches is a different note.

If I set the top string of a guitar to an arbitrary tension, then tune the other strings to that one, will one of those strings make a recognisable 'A' sound?

Not quite sure what you mean here. Although "A" is usually a pretty absolute concept, it's relative in this particular context.

Standard tuning for a guitar's six strings is (low to high) E-A-D-G-B-E. Let's say I tune my guitar's lowest string to C#, and then retune all the other strings to that one. What that means is that the ratios between the strings stay the same, but the starting point is different. In other words, I tune as if that C# were an E.

So my second string, which would ordinarily be tuned to A, is tuned to F#. The ratio between C# and F# is the same as that between E and A—the ratio between "Do" and "Fa." But I might still call that second string, the F#, my "A string"—because that's what it is in standard tuning, and that's how I think of it.

Similarly, when a guitarist talks about a particular chord—"A major," for instance—s/he's usually thinking less about the actual absolute pitches s/he's producing than about the form that s/he's making with hir hands—what strings s/he's pressing down at what frets. The chord that sounds when I press down my third, fourth and fifth strings at the second fret will be an A major when my guitar is in standard E-A-D-G-B-E tuning at A=440: If I'm tuned to C#-F#-B-E-G#-C#, as in the example above, then that same chord will sound as an F# major—but I'll still of the shape my hand is making as "A major."

Musicians can identify the sound of an A, say, in isolation can't they?

Some can—that facility is called "perfect pitch"—but true perfect pitch is pretty rare. But you can get pretty close just by listening and memorizing. If you listen over and over to that A above middle C, then you can memorize the sound of 440 Hz, and when you hear a note you can compare it to the "baseline" A in your head.

I don't really understand how notes can have characteristic sounds if everything is so relative.

Frequencies don't change. 440 Hz is always going to be 440 Hz. But most music is primarily about the relationship between the notes—the simultaneous notes that make up a chord, the sequential notes that make up a melody. It's not terribly important to start from one particular place—as long as you all start from the same place.
 
 
Smoothly
17:32 / 28.01.06
Thanks Jack, you're doing a great job of scrubbing out some of my uncertainties about this stuff.

In this bit:

If I'm tuned to C#-F#-B-E-G#-C#, as in the example above, then that same chord will sound as an F# major—but I'll still of the shape my hand is making as "A major."

So, if you are playing a particular tune, the changes from one note to another will sound similar, whether it's E major to A major, or C# to F#? Is that because the interval between them is the same? So the combination of notes that introduce Here Comes The Sun don't sound optimistic because it's an E followed by an A minor followed by a... (whatever they are), but because of the intervals between the notes. Is that right? (Apologies if this is painful).

What I'm realising is that one of the things I'm most vague about, conceptually, is way different notes have certain characteristics, like moods (eg. sounding 'bright' or 'plaintive' or 'sad' or whatever) that they can maintain through various permutations. By extension, certain changes from one note to another have a personality or 'meaning', and I think of music as being the art of creating phrases out of these units of meaning, like a writer makes phrases out of combinations of words.

So the reason I was struggling with the absolute vs. relative thing is how the notes can be relative (in the sense of being either a true A major or an F# in the example you gave) while the character of a song using those notes remains - in some sense - absolute.
But I now suspect that I've been trying to locate things in the wrong place. When Nigel Tufnel says that D minor is the saddest note of all, I assumed that the note bookmarked that effect of a sound - and that although there might be several different versions of that note, it was a recognisable and consistant aesthetic quality that the 'D minor' was describing. That way of thinking seemed at odds with the idea that and E major can operate as a C#. But, ha, looks like I am as confoosed as Nigel.

I expect this stuff is much more easily understood with the help of an actual musical instrument. I can see this thread being potentially exasperating.
 
 
A
01:21 / 29.01.06
You seem to be misremembering your Spinal Tap, Smoothly. Nigel Tuffnell said that Lick My Love Pump is in D minor, the saddest of a;l keys, not the saddest of all notes.

D minor isn't a musical note. You can play a chord called D minor, or a song can be in the key of D minor.

The 12 notes in an octave are,(unless I'm badly misremembering) A, A# , B, C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G and G#. (The # stands for sharp, and you can call A sharp B flat if you prefer and so on).

I could have a crack at explaining the idea of key, but I think it's better left for someone with at least a basic grasp of musical theory to take you through it.
 
 
robertk
12:20 / 29.01.06
absolute vs relative: an a will always be an a, and the a in your example is at the frequency of 440hz. it's a convention, and every person having that "perfect pitch" will say when hearing a tone at 440hz that it is your middle a.

when you're playing a tune or a chord, anything involving more than one tone played simultaneously or after each other, it doesn't really matter though if the a is 440 hz or 486 hz or 321.5 hz since what makes you feel a chord or melody is harmonic is simply the intervals between the tones played.

some intervals sound strange or unpleasant to us, partly because of certain frequencies colliding and thus causing interference, partly to simple convention and listening habits. for example, the interval of six half tones, it's a kind of quart, was considered a horrible sound back some hundred years ago. people would cringe and hold their ears when hearing it. it was even called diabolus in musica.

today, however, this interval is not received with such strong feelings anymore, although it does sound somewhat dissonant. the point is: listening habits change, some intervals sound better, nicer, than others, but only to us, westerners living in the 21st century.

try to listen to some japanese court orchestral music from the 8th century, then you'll know dissonance.

another thing about relative: a is 440hz. okay. i play the alto saxophone, and my a is actually coming out as c, speaking of frequencies.

to match with a 440hz a played on a piano, to modulate the same frequency, i have to play an f# (that is, what's notated on my scale as f#). a tenor sax would have to play b to make it sound like an a to someone with a perfect pitch.

conclusion: the notes we know are all convention, as are the feelings connected to certain series of notes (intervals). there are absolute notes, defined through frequencies. absolute notes do not play an important role with melodies or chords - here it is the intervals that matter.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:08 / 29.01.06
Also, It's worth noting that This Is Spinal Tap is alleged—by some, at least—to be a comedy, and is perhaps the most reliable source for musical theory.
 
 
Smoothly
16:30 / 29.01.06
It's reassuring that Spinal Tap is perhaps the most reliable source for musical theory, but nevertheless I now realise that I don't know anything.

I don't understand what chords are. They're combinations of notes, aren't they? I just assumed that the chord G must be closely related to the note G (I kinda imagined that it was a combination of several Gs, more or less).

Similarly, I thought that the key of a piece of music referred to the home note (which I understood to be the note the piece starts and/or ends on - or at least a note that featured most prominently).

I don't understand what tones are either, robertk. What's the relationship between a tone and a note?

I fear I might be a lost cause. Looks like I should pluck my copy of This Is Spinal Tap from the dusty reference shelf and do some proper study before I spend any more of the diminishing fund of goodwill I have on here.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:27 / 29.01.06
*sigh* Sorry. It's the little words that mean a lot, don't they? Little words like "not."

Which is almost the same word as "note" (he said, segueing smoothly)(get it? smoothly? I slay me), which is also an anagram for "tone." The concepts are similar, but not quite the same.

Okay. Look at your piano, and find middle C...



Now, ascending those piano keys from C to C (left to right), we traverse the span of an octave, from do to do. This is a major scale, eight notes—do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti, do. Add in the black keys and you've got a twelve-note scale, also called a chromatic scale.

(This is just an example of a major scale, by the way. C does not always equal do. C only equal do when we’re in the key of C: you could also play a major scale where do=G, re=A, mi=B, et cetera. We use the C major scale for convenience, because it’s the only major scale to use all white keys on the piano, which makes it easy to visualize.)

Now. A tone is a particular interval between two notes. For our purposes, a tone is the relationship between two white keys that have a black key between them. Do to re (in this case, C to D) is a tone. So is re to mi (in this example, D to E). Mi to fa (here E to F), though, is a half-tone, also called a semi-tone. Why? Because there's no black key in between them.

So that’s a scale. A scale is a way of organizing the notes in an octave. Visualize a flight of steps—twelve in all. You can go up them one step at a time, or two steps at a time, or any combination of single and double steps. A double step is a tone: a single step is a semitone. The major scale is tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone. But, as you can imagine, that’s only one way to ascend those steps. There are other methods, other combinations of tones and semitones that you can use to get you from C to C, from do to do. These different combinations are called modes, but that’s a subject for another time.

There’s a lot of useful stuff here, by the way, including sound files. to illustrate each point.


A bit about chords later, if you still need it...
 
 
Seth
19:37 / 29.01.06
What is meant by "modal?"
 
 
Smoothly
19:39 / 29.01.06
Thanks Jack. And that link is just the ticket.
 
 
Jack Fear
20:57 / 29.01.06
Well, a mode is, as we have established, any one of the many ways to traverse the octave in whole tones and semitones. Modal is often used as a (lazy) description for melodies that don't use Ionian mode (the de facto standard major scale) or Aeolian (the de facto standard minor)—i.e., music that uses one of the five other Greek or liturgical modes, or that uses some nonwestern scale that has more (or less) than eight notes—although not more than twelve, otherwise we'd be talking about microtonal rather than modal.
 
 
grant
14:59 / 30.01.06
I have a question, actually, and I'm sorry if this confuses people.

It's about intervals.

I know these are numbers that represent the spaces between notes or chords. I know this because I've heard plenty of people (and been one of 'em) saying, "Ok, this song uses a standard one-four-five blues interval."

I think that would be written as I-IV-V.

In the key of E, that'd be E-A-B.

OK. So what am I counting? Whole notes? Notes in the scale? What?

If someone says, "OK, now go to the two!" am I going to an F# or an F?
 
 
Jack Fear
17:03 / 30.01.06
That depends on the key of the song—whether it's major (Ionian), minor (Aeolian), or some other mode.

From the key of the song, you derive its basic scale. And the notes of that scale will be the roots of the chord in any progression.

For a song in E major (Ionian)
do = E = 1
re = F# = 2
mi = G# = 3
fa = A = 4
sol = B = 5
la = C# = 6
ti = D# = 7

Now, here's the interesting part: in an E major progression, the 1, the 4, and the 5 chords will be majors, but the 2, 3, 6, and 7 will typically be minor. Why? Because all the chords in the progression can be constructed using only the notes of the E major scale.

Well, almost. Check it:

1 = E major = E, G#, B
2 = F# minor = F#, A, C#
3 = G# minor = G#, B, D#
4 = A major = A, C#, E
5 = B major = B, D#, F#
6 = C# minor = C#, E, G#
7 = D# minor = D#, F#, A#

The major 7 is the exception, containing as it does the gawdawful flatted fifth, which is why straight Ionian major tunes rarely use the VII chord.

If you're playing the blues, you're most likely using a mode with a minor 7, so your VIII chord would be D major.

Anyway—the exceptions are confusing the issue. Do you get the general principle?
 
 
Jack Fear
17:05 / 30.01.06
By the way, I've never heard it referred to as an "interval" in this context. I've always heard chord progression or just progression if you're a blues or rock guy, and the changes if you're a jazz cat.
 
 
grant
21:12 / 30.01.06
I'm easily confused.

So it's chords within the progression, not notes in a scale, then?
 
 
Jack Fear
23:33 / 30.01.06
The one derives from the other. The notes in the scale are the root notes for the chords within the progression.

Changes will usually be written in Roman numerals, with the lowercase "m" indicating a minor—e.g., this classic between-verses vamp:

I-VIm-IIm-V

Can you but dig it, daddy-o?
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
07:09 / 31.01.06
Stupid question alert!
 
What does STMTCG stand for...?
 
 
Smoothly
07:17 / 31.01.06
Ooh, ooh, Something I know! Songs That Made This Country Great.
 
 
Jack Fear
09:25 / 31.01.06
One more reason I wish we could do "sticky" topics on this board...
 
 
Seth
12:21 / 01.02.06
In the absence of sticky topics I suggest writing in black on orange paper and sticking it to your screen, JF.
 
 
Char Aina
13:57 / 01.02.06
its my understanding that modes follow the same pattern of a standard scale, but starting in a different place.

if playing a major, for example, the intervals are

tone
tone
semitone
tone
tone
tone
semitone

say i am starting on C, the next note will be D. if i play the same major pattern starting on F, the second note will be G.
its the same pattern.
its a major scale.

if i take the notes of G major(one sharp and no flats) and play it from C to C i have a scale that sounds quite different and it would go

tone
tone
tone
semitone
tone
tone
semitone

i can then apply this 'starting on the fifth of the major scale' pattern of intervals elsewhere and it can be given a name and treated as a sort of scale to go alogside major, minor and blues and pentatonic scales in my arsenal.

are there as many modes as there are starting places in the major and minor scales?

am i right?
am i close?
 
 
Jack Fear
14:59 / 01.02.06
You are pretty much correct, as far as the Western, named modes. On a piano, Dorian mode is white keys D to D: Phrygian is E to E, Lydian F to F, Mixolydioan G to G, Aeolian A to A, Locrian B to B.

But not all scales limit themselves to whole and half-tones. The Turkish scale used in "Misirlou"—the surf instrumental that opens "Pulp Fiction"—is E F G# A B C D# E, or semitone, tone-and-a-half, semitone, tone, semitone, tone-and-a-half, semitone. (That tone-and-a-half interval is technically called a minor third, but you know what I mean).

And it's perfectly possible to construct scales or modes with less than eight notes, or more. It's really a lot less circumscribed than it may seem.
 
 
lekvar
18:58 / 20.03.06
Not even remotely music theory-related:
The Sisters of Mercy will be cruising through my area on one of their rare U.S. tours. I'd love to go see them as a farewell to the young man I used to be, but are they actually any good live?
 
 
De Selby
23:10 / 20.03.06
Not even remotely music theory-related

So why isn't it in its own thread? Not that I really care, but it seems a little daft.
 
 
lekvar
02:22 / 21.03.06
Errrr, 'cause this is "Stupid Music Questions."

"Thread summary:
Everything you wanted to know about music, but were afraid to ask."
 
 
De Selby
03:27 / 21.03.06
Fair enough, I assumed it meant music as something you study or practice, rather than listen to. It just seemed strange that you acknowledge that its not related to the rest of the thread. The disclaimer kinda reads like

"yeah I know this is in the wrong place, but I'm gonna post it anyway"
 
 
Baz Auckland
03:00 / 22.03.06
From what I've heard (close friends who saw them about 6 years ago), they're pretty awful live nowadays...
 
 
lekvar
20:23 / 24.03.06
Thanks for that. I'd kinda assumed I'd missed the boat by about 10 years, but it would have been nice to hear otherwise.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:36 / 25.03.06
They were a bit poo about 5/6 years ago last time I saw them, but I think the line-up's different again now, so who can say? I'm planning on seeing them in May just in case...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
00:35 / 05.04.06
I like the Fall a lot, I like Blake a lot, but can anyone tell me why they're supposed to be similar? Who started saying that? The similarity's just not jumping out at me.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:12 / 05.04.06
Blake is journalistic shorthand for "English and idiosyncratic". That's it, really.
 
 
Mike Modular
06:59 / 05.04.06
Mark E Smith is a big fan of Blake. The Fall covered Jerusalem and MES quotes him on the Code: Selfish sleevenotes and in the song W.B. (Guess what that stands for...?)

In his book Hip Priest, Simon Ford says:
"They had much in common: Blake, like Smith, was single-minded and eclectic, an autodidact with idiosyncratic spelling and a keen interest in occult and esoteric systems of knowledge. Both found it difficult to establish long-term relationships because of their erratic behaviour and short tempers and both were resolutely anti-commercial."

So there you go...
 
  

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