BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The Temple forum

 
  

Page: 123(4)56

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
03:43 / 21.01.06
Isn't there some old adage about never talking about sex, religion or politics?

Only on first dates, job interviews, or in front of children. Otherwise it's a free-for-all.
 
 
Morgana
12:27 / 21.01.06
Fluidity and open mindedness are pretty much everything. A willingness to entertain bizarre notions in order to deepen understanding of the human condition and the story-telling brain which is the only instrument available to make sense of it all.

I'm gonna print that out and pin it over my desk!

@ Dirty Ho: Concerning causality, I'm very much a fan of Hume's position that there is no objective truth behind the notion of a necessary connection between cause and effect:

"When we look about us towards external objects, and consider the operation of causes, we are never able, in a single instance, to discover any power or necessary connexion; any quality, which binds the effect to the cause, and renders the one an infallible consequence of the other. We only find, that the one does actually, in fact, follow the other." (David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding)

I'm finding this useful for every part of my life: to keep some scepticism about what the senses as well as reason are telling me. Naturally, I'm even more sceptic about my magical workings than I am in everyday life.

So, if e.g. I put a healing-spell on someone and that person actually got better, I'd be very aware of the fact that there's no way to prove that the healing is actually an effect of my spell. But then again, where's the proof that there's an actual causal connection between me taking an aspirine and my headaches getting better? Perhaps they would have vanished, anyway.

I know, this is a very controversial view and here's not the right place to discuss it. But perhaps it shows that you don't necessarily have to believe in the independent existence of weird "things" to do some magic.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:33 / 21.01.06
Well put, I'd say.

I'm prepared to accept the notion of cause and effect, it seems to make sense. I just have huge trouble telling which is which.
 
 
Quantum
14:39 / 21.01.06
It's not a controversial view IMHO, there *is* no logical justification for causation (or induction either) but we believe in it nonetheless. That's one of my key philosophical justifications for magic, that a faith in magic can be as rational as a faith in causation. Morgana, perhaps I can entice you over to this thread?
 
 
Quantum
14:43 / 21.01.06
Now we have soap-opera's to give people some sense of nuclear family relationships 'lula

Yeah, we have exchanged Elysian Fields for Eastenders. Grr.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:06 / 21.01.06
It's funny, a lot of people are expressing an (undesire? antipathy towards?) going into the Temple for the same reason that other people don't want to go in the Head Shop. Do people really feel anxious about engaging with people who, shock horror, might turn out to know more about something than they do? Maybe it's just me then...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:58 / 21.01.06
And while we're all here, The Origins of Magical Beliefs 19.00, 16/02/2006 at The Dana Centre. Might be interesting to people folks that have taken part in this thread, though in my experience the Dana Centre are crap at answering their phones.
 
 
HCE
16:35 / 21.01.06
But then again, where's the proof that there's an actual causal connection between me taking an aspirine and my headaches getting better?

Which brings us back to the topic of this thread, which seems to be less about the nature of reality than about the nature of the Temple.

If you ask your question in the Lab, you will get one sort of answer: we know there's a connection because when people take aspirin their headaches get better, whether or not they believe in aspirin or even know if it's aspirin they're taking. There's a set of guidelines for approaching questions: you try to reduce the variables, you have to have a minimum sample size to rule out coincidence, the test you devise has to be repeatable by others.

If you ask the same question as part of a writing assignment in Creation, you'd get a very different answer: perhaps somebody would write a story about a person with migraines for whom ordinary medication doesn't work, or a poem in which aspirin stands in for a ritual or habit that a person uses to soothe herself.

As Moneyshot points out, it's not so much whether *I* believe that any of what you're saying is real, it's whether *you* do (again, I cannot speak for others, and assume there is as much diversity of opinion outside the Temple as inside it). If you didn't think there was more to your experiences than what you made up, you wouldn't post it in the Temple.

What can somebody contribute to the Temple that will be respectful and useful when that person is at odds with the way that questions are approached, in a very basic sense?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:04 / 21.01.06
(Well said)
 
 
Morgana
18:58 / 21.01.06
It's just that most of the magical folk I'm working with is approaching all that occult stuff in quite a scientific way - as far as you can do that. I.e. being sceptical about your experiences, trying to get repeatable results, comparing them with others, building up a consistent theory etc. The difference to empirism being of course that you can't really do "magical research" in lab-conditions.

Still, I found that many magical concepts are translatable into the languages of philosophy and psychology. Also there seem to be some similarities between certain spiritual worldviews and modern physics. In fact that's an area I think is highly fascinating - but of course that's my personal preference.

I don't think anybody should be coaxed into posting in the Temple - I just wouldn't like it to be seen as a kind of parallel universe, as in fact there are many connections to "real life".
 
 
HCE
21:33 / 21.01.06
Still, I found that many magical concepts are translatable into the languages of philosophy and psychology. Also there seem to be some similarities between certain spiritual worldviews and modern physics.

I don't want to rot the discussion here, but if you'd like to pick that notion up elsewhere, let me know.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:56 / 21.01.06
I just wouldn't like it to be seen as a kind of parallel universe, as in fact there are many connections to "real life".

I think it would be a little foolish to suggest that it wasn't about "real life" simply because magical practice is about real life. It's about the difference in individual experience rather than what is definitely shared. There's no doubt that there has been an experience in a lot of cases but others potentially misunderstand the limitsof the event. For instance Money $hot's recent experience is a little like someone saying they have a niece that you're never going to meet, an anecdote really. It's not a thing that anyone else is going to experience in the same way. This means that there are questions involved about responses to that niece, the relationship with the whole experience. To question that the niece is a person present in the world... that might cause someone to react with a variety of negative emotions: confusion, anger, upset but perhaps you have a good reason to ask that question that isn't evident to the person with the niece.
 
 
Morgana
13:39 / 23.01.06
I don't want to rot the discussion here, but if you'd like to pick that notion up elsewhere, let me know.

Sure - is there some existing thread we could go to? Quantum's one in the head-shop (to which I'll contribute as soon as I find some time to read it thoroughly) would work for philosophy and magic; and spirituality vs. physics is so common, it just HAS to have been mentioned before...
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:43 / 23.01.06
Its been mentioned countless times before, I think. Those of us coming at these things from the physics side tend to find it all much more tenuous than those from the spirituality side, imo.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
15:54 / 23.01.06
Dirty Ho: If you didn't think there was more to your experiences than what you made up, you wouldn't post it in the Temple.

I have always been on the 'whether it's real is irrelevant' side of the fence, which is why I find your contrasting of the Temple with the Creation is a highly useful one. I think that the difference is that Temple work requires you to engage things as though they were real, regardless of whether they are or not.

A common ritual in the modern world (at least on television) is ritually burning a destructive ex's pictures and love letters. Even by people who do not consider themselves magicians in any way, this is used as a symbol of severing the emotional connection. Contrast this with someone burning their ex's pictures and letters while thinking, "This is a physical act of destruction which I made up (at least, got from television), and there is no causal link between what I am doing an any emotional state I may experience in the future." This is probably not going to be all that effective, because the participant didn't treat it as a real thing.

By contrast, the Temple gets threads on 'narrative magic' once in a while, in which writing is used as a magical technique. There, the writer is treating the text as some sort of model for reality, which ze considers to have some sort of causal effect, or which may be spookily writing itself through the writer. This just is 'making things up,' but it is used differently from fiction. (It occurs to me that someone who was approaching fiction as fiction, and then had the through-writing experience unbidden would also have a nice start for a Temple thread.)


What can somebody contribute to the Temple that will be respectful and useful when that person is at odds with the way that questions are approached, in a very basic sense?

I guess that depends on what manner you're at odds. I love scientists, and I am a mathematician, but I skip the 'What is the evidence this works?' threads because even though I know enough math to know how common 'spooky coincidences' are, I still derive useful information from them--I guess I treat the change from magic like the change from reading an abstract painting I love. But I can imagine all sorts of other skeptical threads that would be great fun; there's all sorts of cultural unpacking that could be going on, for example, and the relation of symbols in modern Western culture to those of ancient cultures are unanswerable and interesting (i.e., is it impossible for me to understand Athena without the right cultural background, or is it vital that I understand Athena because Wonder Woman does not make a substitute?). I also place psychology and self-help in the Temple, as it is also treating a model as real for effecting change.

I guess I'm saying I can imagine the Temple not being someone's cup of tea, but if they think I should try some yerba mate I'm game, you know?
 
 
HCE
16:05 / 23.01.06
I had not thought of considering the Temple as a place thinking through for any type of transformation achieved through ritual -- that would certainly broaden its scope considerably into areas that don't require any kind of faith or belief. Hm.

Definitely the experiences you described that involve writing or purging negative feelings are very familiar. I don't personally make a connection between that kind of experience and what's described in the Temple, but perhaps that is precisely because I come to it from the outside. Would the Temple regulars consider those things to be analogous to magical practice?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:25 / 23.01.06
Well, I've posted alot of stuff analogising/connecting the way people talk about ritual/process etc in the Temple with my own experiences as practioner and client in counselling?

V.hesitantly at first, as I had no idea whether it 'belonged' (Illmatic, over pints, was particular encouraging), but I've got a lot out of those threads, and felt able to dicsuss some stuff that for me didn't fit anywhere else on Barbelith at all.

So I'd recommend it.
 
 
grant
21:08 / 23.01.06
Would the Temple regulars consider those things to be analogous to magical practice?

I would.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:14 / 23.01.06
Oh, and lovely post, PT.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:01 / 24.01.06
a place of thinking through for any type of transformation achieved through ritual

Sounds like a great description of the forum to me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:15 / 27.01.06
[Been meaning to post this for over a week now, but couldn't get it finished/right - I realise though that not posting long posts you want to post just because you're a perfectionist is shit, so here goes.]

I think the Temple is, just round about now, potentially getting to a really interesting point in its development. I'm going to be really pretentious now and number the next few bits of my post.


1.

Let's start with the assumption that there was a time, in Barbelith's early stages, when the dominant or most promiment paradigm could be said to have been a sort of pop chaos magic, which was at the front of the general Barbelith consciousness partly because of a comic book called The Invisibles, and partly because of other things that had influenced said comic book.

So it was all sigils, superheroes and pop stars as 21st century deities, magic as corporate methodology, 23, 11. Hindsight can be a cruel ex, but even now it's not hard to see the appeal of this approach, really. Accessible and often light (where one might have expected obscurism and pomposity - not that these were absent, but, y'know), relatively quick and easy to use, fun, results-based, shiny, sexy, with the slight possibility of making a profit. It all seemed very much of its time and of the zeitgeist - magic as just another useful, interesting, mildly esoteric but ultimately quite throwaway technique for doing cool shit on a day-to-day basis, with (semi)plausible, relatively unthreatening explanations, seemed to crop up in lots of other fiction at the time. Of course the problem with things that seem of their time in a good way at the time, is that they can still seem of their time five years later.


2.

My interpretation is that in the last couple of years, the standard of the critiques of the above approach in the Temple forum, whether relatively restrained sympathetic critiques or full-on casting-out-the-moneylenders stuff, have been of a much higher quality than the defences of the same. They've been better written, and crucially, they've also seemed like a welcome, refreshing change.

The previous paradigm - all that "invoke Neo to help you cross the road, by which we mean the Neo who lives in your head! wank over this picture of Zatanna to get laid! 23!" stuff - had started to seem a bit shallow and dilletantish, a bit too quick and easy, too "take it or leave it". Now, I don't want to slate it entirely - see above - I think that actually there are good arguments that can still be made for all that kind of stuff, and it's not the fault of pop chaos magic itself that a lot of the people who are into it are wankers (see Shaftoe's Rule #23 - No Band Is So Good That They Don't Have Shit Fans - by way of comparison).

The point is, partly through over-familiarity with that stuff, partly through some lazy expressions of it, and partly through a natural cycle of change, people started to become a bit more receptive to the idea that magic should be big and scary in a good way, even if it was only in the way art, or human relationships, can be big and scary in a good way. Magic as something that demands commitment, that rewards study and practice, that has deep roots in the past and in tradition, that can't be explained, that does challenge people, that is bigger than you - a lot of the best writing in the Temple in the past two years or more has been advancing the argument for that kind of magic. I very much doubt I need to name names.


3.

So what I mean by an interesting point in the Temple's development is that we've now got to the point where the new approach to magic (which isn't new at all, of course, outside this context) has become known/recognised to many people on the board. I'm thinking in particular of regular posters who contribute heavily elsewhere, but who don't tend to post much in the Temple, probably because they don't consider themselves to be magical practitioners, even if they have an interest in the subject. Now, I reckon - and this is just a theory - that during what we might call stage 2, above, these people felt very supportive towards what has been posted that challenges the paradigm described in stage 1 - maybe they even felt it was something that should be defended and nurtured and encouraged (I know I did). However, now, there's a significant body of work, as it were, in the form of posts by people including but not limited to (okay, so I will name names now) Gypsy Lantern, Mordant Carnival, and Seth. So maybe what's happening now is that some posters are now familiar enough with what I'll call Big God Magic (for want of a better term) that they're starting to see ways in which they want to critique it, while simultaneously feeling that Big God Magic has been nurtured enough and can now be expected to stand up to such critiques. I think Money $hot's thread has been the flashpoint for this.

(I had a conversation with Gypsy Lantern recently in which I ran this theory past him, and he pointed out that if little more than half a dozen people suddenly stopped posting in the Temple, it could and in all likelihood would revert back to stage 1. This is true and slightly complicates/problematises my theory. However, Gypsy also agreed that he no longer feels as if he's writing in such an oppositional ways anymore - i.e., the initial "what about looking at it this way?" or "I am for a magic which x y z, which is probably news to you all" stage has passed to a certain degree. Generation Hex arguably fits into this theory a bit like a Trojan Horse, with lots of 23s and chaospheres daubed on its flanks.)

Yet more to follow.
 
 
Seth
13:13 / 27.01.06
That was a really excellent post, Petey.

On another note, Nina... I'm really sorry about my earlier post. I'm in a pretty angry frame of mind at the moment and that got unfairly channelled your way. Sorry.
 
 
illmatic
13:43 / 27.01.06
Yup, excellent post.

I'd just add that what you saying Petey re. the debates on Barbelith, seems to me to be a reflection of the broader "magical culture" - (not that it is that "broad" or, even "cultural" mostly). Chaos magic was very much the hot thing for an number of years - beginning in the late seventies and still seemed exciting to me 10-12 years later. Revolutionary, iconoclastic, kicking out the dead wood of traditions and all that stuff. The steam seems to have gone out of it in the last few years though as a) as people reliase it's inherent limitations and b) the inevitable dumbing down/ossifying process. One man's iconclasm becomes another man's laziness* I think the debates in Barbelith should be seen in this context.
 
 
illmatic
13:49 / 27.01.06
A friend who used to be involved with one of the big Chaos Magic orders commented that it seemed to be a transitional stage for a lot of people. Gives you a lot of freedom, throws off some of the blinkers and shackles people gird their spirituality with - and after that, one might settle down to something more engaging with a bit mroe depth. I know I have!
 
 
Quantum
19:03 / 27.01.06
I found that many magical concepts are translatable into the languages of philosophy and psychology. Also there seem to be some similarities between certain spiritual worldviews and modern physics. In fact that's an area I think is highly fascinating - but of course that's my personal preference. Morgana


Quantum magic physics etc. see you there.
 
 
Quantum
12:40 / 28.01.06
..the debates on Barbelith, seems to me to be a reflection of the broader "magical culture" Illmatic

I think of the Temple as a barometer of current 'magical culture', even though as Gypsy said it's largely half a dozen posters that make it that way. Great post Mr Shaftoe, I think you're right that the balance seems to be shifting toward old school techniques, partially as a backlash against Pop! magic, partially as posters progress along their particular path and get more deeply into their chosen weirdness. I like the thought of Chaos as a 'gateway drug' into the occult world- you start with a quick sigil to get laid, then there's the slippery slope and before you know it Pow! you're offering your firstborn to Loki, or spending seven hours a day in devotion to Aiwass or something.
 
 
Morgana
14:55 / 28.01.06
The funny thing about it is, that this usually is the way of someone's personal magical "career", too. I mean, you usually do start with the easy stuff like sigils, and you usually are a bit superficial at first, because the land of magic is such a big one, everything seems to be promising and fun, and you are too lazy to get deeper into some of the stuff. Until at some point you discover THE lore, or just the need to do something thoroughly. And, if you're not going to get psychotic, I think there's also a point when you have to start weighing your magical believes against the physical world.

So, what you're all saying really is, that the Temple's growing up? *g*
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:14 / 28.01.06
So maybe what's happening now is that some posters are now familiar enough with what I'll call Big God Magic (for want of a better term) that they're starting to see ways in which they want to critique it, while simultaneously feeling that Big God Magic has been nurtured enough and can now be expected to stand up to such critiques.

That's fantastic, and could be really helpful for all concerned. Certainly the current flavour of the Temple is largely contributed by a relatively small number of posters but I don't think any of those posters are exactly going to be scared of a few awkward questions.

Being able to recieve reasoned and intelligent outside critique can only strengthen one's overall practice and help build a more reality based approach. It gets you to buckle down and really think about the nature of what you're doing. (So long as it is reasoned and intelligent critique, and not just the kind of "Oh well you think Kali talks to you so fuck your ideas" attack used elsewhere.)
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
16:27 / 28.01.06
Very good post, Petey.
 
 
Seth
17:58 / 28.01.06
I had not thought of considering the Temple as a place thinking through for any type of transformation achieved through ritual -- that would certainly broaden its scope considerably into areas that don't require any kind of faith or belief. Hm.

Definitely the experiences you described that involve writing or purging negative feelings are very familiar. I don't personally make a connection between that kind of experience and what's described in the Temple, but perhaps that is precisely because I come to it from the outside. Would the Temple regulars consider those things to be analogous to magical practice?


Yes yes yes! That’s precisely what the forum is about for me, and exactly why I take exception to the idea that there are things you cannot discuss in the Temple forum, questions you can’t ask, and assumptions that will necessarily cause you to be at odds with the assumptions of people who post there. To think of the Temple as being merely a place in which Magic is discussed (and for Magic to be a much smaller, simpler, less rich beast than the diversity found in the people who practise it) is to grossly caricature it. Yes, that’s part of the remit, as is psychology, religion, martial arts, the list goes on…

The Temple Forum is a microcosm of Barbelith. We contain multitudes. We don’t always agree with each other. We’re diverse right down to the individual. You’ll get very different reactions out of everyone who posts there.

Can I start a Change the Forum Description campaign?

What can somebody contribute to the Temple that will be respectful and useful when that person is at odds with the way that questions are approached, in a very basic sense?

How about a thread in which we discuss the potential differences in the way that questions are approached, and agree to read what each other are writing and try to understand each other? We may not decide we fully agree at the end of it, we may find a lot more common ground that might be expected. The point is we don’t know that until the discussion has been had, and to deny the discussion because of the way in which we imagine it might run is to rob us of the possibility that it might run differently than that, that it might be really useful to a lot of people, fruitful even, and might enrich the thinking of a good number of people involved.

What if we were to approach a discussion of such questions with the objective of adding to people’s lives with the strength of ideas, rather than what we might take away from people with the friction that could exist between two worldviews? Yes, there could be tension in such a discussion – could it not be a creative tension instead of a destructive one? I think Petey has an extremely interesting perspective in his most recent post to this thread. It’s actually a very exciting thought: that by entertaining a critique of our commonly held assumptions we might find something even stronger, a better fit with our experience of the world.

In short, let’s engage with these things rather than putting them aside because we’re not ready, or the way in which we see perceive the Temple is one that would not be receptive, or we think there would be conflict at the most fundamental level. Let’s risk pissing each other off and actually, you know, try to be ourselves and communicate as best we can. If there are discussions to be had, lets have them. No taboos, nothing that cannot be asked.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:27 / 29.01.06
(Off topic, but we've got this thread going in the Temple on Magical spaces and cultural signifiers and it would be nice to get some more input, especially from Headshoppy people.)
 
 
Seth
10:15 / 29.01.06
Mordant: I was thinking exactly the same thing about the Quantum Physics and Magical Theory thread, which I think could do with some Lab oriented people (I know I'd certainly appreciate their perspective).
 
 
Ganesh
10:30 / 29.01.06
This thread was started around the time BT Broadband (which I believe exists) started screwing around with our connection, and we went offline for a while. I've put aside reading it until now, and my ears are burning - or I imagine they are. They're hot, anyway.

Hang on, are you trying to tell me that Ganesh doesn't start with the benefit of the doubt? Yes, he deals with enquiries well and I think he's a reasonable and thoughtful person who deserves to be well liked but primarily Ganesh's posts on these subjects always begin with people accepting his position as positive and I think that's very much to do with the fact that he's a psych and is open about his knowledge of the profession. That makes it a hell of a lot easier for him.

I think there's some truth to the idea that people respect my 'practice' and field of expertise, but it's a two-way street and the large part is, I feel, more connected with my starting from a position of reciprocal respect: in the Temple, I'm more aware than elsewhere that I've not had the same experiences as some, and this shapes (and limits) the degree of authority with which I can legitimately comment on their experiences. I can give an opinion, certainly - I can say, "to me, that sounds similar to the ways in which I've heard drug-induced psychotic experiences described" - but I cannot flatly say, "that's a drug-induced psychosis" or "you're/your brain's making that up" without going unchallenged.

I don't think people inevitably accept my position as "positive" - in the 'Maladaptive' thread, for example, I do end up having to fight a "pitched battle" in defence of my right to advance even a tentative 'coping method' hypothesis - but I suspect I've posted there enough that most of the half-dozen or so regular posters to whom Gypsy refers are familiar with my style and usual preoccupations.

It's taken quite a long time for me to feel comfortable getting fully involved in Temple discussions, but my wariness wasn't entirely down to my paucity of direct experience with the subject matter. It was probably more a factor of my unfamiliarity with the history of personality clashes in that forum, many of which I continue to find largely impenetrable.

And, of course, the forum itself has evolved, as per Petey's excellent summary.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:00 / 29.01.06
Can I start a Change the Forum Description campaign? --Seth

Mmm. Been thinking about that myself. I may go and have a quick word in the Policy.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:32 / 29.01.06
Okay, there is now a thread in the Policy to discuss what changes, if any, are needed in the forum description.

Changing the Temple forum description
 
  

Page: 123(4)56

 
  
Add Your Reply