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Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
23:01 / 17.01.06
I had briefly thought to put this in the policy, but it's pretty broad and more suited to the conversation.

I've always thought that the Temple was for things concerning the spirit, for whatever ball of mystical light that animates your skin sack full of bones and goo. Sort of like an all-purpose church or temple where you bring whatever idea of spirit or lack thereof for show and tell. A place you can get prayers for your well-being or at least promises from strangers to keep you in their thoughts when they masturbate.

I've been curious about how the rest of the board views the Temple. I don't post there often anymore, but I do lurk frequently. One sees the same names pretty often, which suggests a core of posters who very much appreciate its existence. What about everyone else? Do you find yourself wondering about your relationship with the infinite? If so, how useful is this forum? How much value is placed on opinions coming from the Temple? Is this indicative of the board's general attitude toward matters of the spirit?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:08 / 17.01.06
I read the Temple a lot, though I almost never post. That's largely because I feel I have little to add, but much to learn. I don't feel excluded- I reckon if I did post more I'd get a fair hearing and all would be well- I just prefer to read that stuff than write it, if you get what I mean.

By its very nature, it's gonna be somewhat isolated- not everyone believes in/is interested in TEH MAHJIKS, and those who don't aren't really going to bother with it. While the same is true of many of the fora, I'm willing to bet there're more people who've never "done" any magic than there are who've never read a comic, for example.

I like that it's now the Temple rather than the Magick, and that is has religion in its remit too, even though it still seems to be something brought up relatively rarely... one day I'll get round to having a decent discussion of faith on there, where I think the discussion WILL be a decent one. Not today, though. Today I'm drinking beer.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:18 / 17.01.06
I feel like I need to be very restrained when I visit the Temple because these days I'm a non-believer. I don't feel that I can be open about my cynicism because it would be threadrot and frankly where would it end? There's a fundamental difference in world view between people who believe in higher things and people who don't. That doesn't mean that those who don't believe want to trample on the perceptions of people who do but it can be very difficult not to when you get into a discussion that covers specifics. What I perceive as erratic others see as close examination, what I think is tenuous and in some cases potentially dangerous is to others profound and real.

I recognise in myself a view that has come about because I have had to reject these ideas logically, in line with my own belief system, in line with my opinions on religion and the immediate world around me (fundamentally it all collapsed for me when I had an existential crisis about the afterlife and decided there wasn't one. As a result of this I can't believe in the backgrounds of deities anymore thus I can't believe in deities).

Neither do I want to start a thread on disbelief because I don't want to threaten people in their space and/or start a potential flamewar. This leaves me very at odds with the Temple as a forum as it rests very significantly on things beyond shared human experience and more on individual encounter/magical work.

I don't think it's a loony bin, I found it an attractive and interesting space when I first happened upon barbelith and for people involved in that kind of thing it's important because it's a forum for specific kinds of consideration. I'm just not that interested in the kind of interaction that goes on there anymore. I don't feel that there's significant examination of the way experiences interlock with wider life but I understand, having been in that position myself, that those types of experiences are difficult to examine in that way. I just can't engage with it on a real level, as myself at this time.
 
 
Smoothly
23:41 / 17.01.06
Like some people have a novel they mean to start writing but never seem to get started, the Temple is a forum I keep meaning to read. I have tried in the past, but I find it incredibly alienating. For one thing, there are lots of posters there who are complete strangers to me, and an established culture that I feel absolutely no part of. What's strange is that there are posters there who I feel familiar with, but they seem different somehow when they have their Madjick hats on. To be clear, I see that as being very much my problem.

However, one problem with this is that I feel reluctant to start topics that would be a naturally belong there, because I don't feel I belong there. Again, that's not to whinge. It would just feel like being a n00b all over again, and the Temple remains outside my comfort zone.

And to be honest, I don't think I'm sufficiently 'spiritual' to get past the front door. To answer your questions, I don't wonder about my relationship with the infinite. In fact, I'm so unspiritual, I don't even know what that means. So I don't think there's much hope for me, much as I'd love to be converted.

But yeah, I will get round to exploring it one day...
 
 
alas
23:47 / 17.01.06
Stoatie pretty much summed up my thoughts. And I would love to get into a discussion that Stoats would start someday about belief and disbelief. I do lurk there, and when I do I find about a dozen threads I think: I should read these!

And if people are willing to keep me in their thoughts while they masturbate...well, hey, who could be opposed to that...!
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
00:05 / 18.01.06
The first line should read "the temple" not "the policy". I'm not sure why I typed that.

Neither do I want to start a thread on disbelief because I don't want to threaten people in their space and/or start a potential flamewar.

I think most posters in the Temple would be interested in such a thread and would even welcome it. I doubt many would feel threatened, and flames would be kept to a minimum, I'm sure.
 
 
lekvar
00:15 / 18.01.06
I tend to skate on by the Temple when I'm reading Barbelith. The Temple is like those neighbors who are always laughing and having a good time who you never talk to, not beacuse you're antisocial, but because you don't speak their language. They wave and you wave and everybody smiles and goes their own way.

I tend to find the notion of Magyck pretty interesting, but I've already got too many hobbies.
 
 
charrellz
00:18 / 18.01.06
To me the Temple is the only place I can be open abbout certain crucial aspects of my life. It's also the core of Barbelith in my mind. The Temple is the most checked board for me. And I think it's all of the above as far as the thread summary is concerned.

It would just feel like being a n00b all over again, and the Temple remains outside my comfort zone.

Best way to get over that is to spend some time there and make it your comfort zone. We generally try to be nice for the most part. Usually.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:18 / 18.01.06
Meant to put in my previous post, but I'll add it now rather than editing:

I may not post there much, but I feel Barbelith would be a much poorer place without it.
 
 
Olulabelle
00:24 / 18.01.06
Why is this in 'Conversation?'

I understand that 'Conversation' is a good place for...um...conversation about things, but isn't this better placed in 'Policy' or even the 'Temple' forum itself? If there is a big discussiuon to be had about the 'Temple' it would be a shame for it to get lost in discussion here about adverts and Pooh Bear.
 
 
Smoothly
00:27 / 18.01.06
We generally try to be nice for the most part.

Oh I'm sure. In fact, none of the Barbeloid's I've met in real life have been more charming than the ones who frequent the Temple. I was just trying to explain why I haven't, so far, got involved. I find it hard enough to keep abreast of the forums I feel an affinity with and have an investment in. I think at some point a person has to admit that they're never going to know the right way to rub GEK.


By the way, I agree with Olulabelle. Feels like a Policy thread to me.
 
 
Smoothly
00:29 / 18.01.06
A move to policy has been suggested. Are you okay with that, Tuna?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
00:41 / 18.01.06
I had imagined an informal discussion typical of the Conversation, full of one-liners and a wide variety of not too in-depth opinions. I confess I can't think of a good reason to move it, but whatever the mods wanna do is cool.
 
 
Smoothly
00:43 / 18.01.06
If that's what you're looking for, I vote we keep it here.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:50 / 18.01.06
I've just disagreed a move to Policy, even though I can see exactly why it was proposed (if it's proposed again, I'll cave to public opinion and agree it)-

I think part of the question being asked here is whether the Temple is an isolated forum- there used to be much talk of the (as was) Magic being the "ghetto forum". Much the same, I think, is true of the Policy- the majority of posters never read it. What I'm guessing (I could be way wrong here, so apologies in advance) is that this topic isn't really addressed at the "usual suspects", but at the average Barbelith poster- who, unfortunately, doesn't read the Policy.

For that reason, I've disagreed the move- if people feel strongly enough to propose it again, I won't stand in their way, and will either skip or agree (depending on how the thread looks at the time). Basically, I think it's a good thread for the Conversation (and God knows, we need some decent, thought-out discussion in here every once in a while!), but I'm not concerned enough to have an argument about it.

Wherever it ends up, I'll be following it- it's a good thread, so far. The kind of discussion we need more of ("in the Convo! In the Convo!" or indeed in the Policy).

(For what it's worth, I love the Policy- I think it's criminally ignored. Which is why I voted the way I did. No offence meant to anyone).
 
 
lekvar
01:21 / 18.01.06
See, I would think that "Is The Temple Dying" would be more suited to Policy (I agree, Policy doesn't get the love it deserves) but this is more of a "So, The Temple, What's Up With That, Then?" I'd have no input in the former, while the latter is something I can feel free to speak on.

Having said that, my few excursions into the Temple have always been enlightening. The recent post on fasting sent me immediately to the National Institute of Health website, where I learned about all sorts of surprising (to me) benefits of fasting that are recognized by Real Scientists. The kind that wear Lab Coats and publish Peer Reviewed Papers.

So: The Temple - Not my thing, but pretty cool anyways.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
01:56 / 18.01.06
Policy can be interesting; I poke my head around to see if any of the threads there have moved, and if they interest me. Temple's always one of the places I stop in to read, but feel myself unqualified (this is, sigh, a "me too" post) to interact with. Some threads have more to do with things I'm interested in, others don't strike anything with me, but there's something oddly soothing about the green. It goes in waves for me.
 
 
eddie thirteen
02:35 / 18.01.06
My interest comes and goes a lot, too -- it's the most intelligent forum on magic I've ever seen, so when I do have the urge to talk about it (or, more often, to lurk and read about it...few subjects DON'T inspire me to run off at the mouth, but for some reason magic's one where I feel I'm better off just listening, usually), it's pretty much the only net-spot I ever visit. Barbelith would be a kinda soulless place without it.
 
 
Olulabelle
05:07 / 18.01.06
Oh hang on; a discussion with another Mod has made me change my mind. Sadly few people read Policy, and possibly even fewer read the Temple.

So moving this thread defeats the object of the subject. Disappointingly.

I am a Mod convert.
 
 
illmatic
05:58 / 18.01.06
As a longtime Temple poster (it was one of the things that first attracted me to Barbelith) I have to say I welcome this discussion. It’s interesting to read from the other side of the fence, so to speak.

Couple of points come up for me – firstly, for those who don’t post there/read it, I’d say don’t think of people who post there as being some big homogenous spooky, Grant-worshipping, sigil-a’tossing mass, ‘cos we’re not. We don’t all believe the same thing, anymore than people who posts in the Music share identical tastes. Even amongst other posters there who’re good friends of mine, there are some serious differences of opinion and emphasis. This ties in with the whole cynicism issue to me, as if you don’t naturally experience some cynicism, doubt or scepticism at some time, then you’re not really much of a practitioner. Part of your development, if you’re interested in this area, is to work out what’s true for you in the light of your own experience and what is just a load of crap, regurgitated from book to book “without any intervening thought” – I have to say, shock horror, that the whole “sigils will do anything” misconception is part of that. (“What, you mean I can’t gain access to the secrets of Teh MUTIVERSE through wanking over this post-it?” “’Fraid so”.). And obviously, the “truths” we all arrive at are different. Perhaps personal truths is a better phrase. All the long term posters in The Temple aspire to a critical perspective. What makes the Temple a good forum is that there are a number of people who have actually practised a bit, and who are prepared to talk from their own experience, and dismiss dogma, cliche or what-have-you

Secondly, I’d welcome posts from people who are frightened to dip their toes in because so many of you are all smart, articulate and funny (Temple charm offensive underway). Some of the best threads in recent months there have been started by longtime posters who don’t identify as “magicians”, who’re exploring their cynicism/scepticism or whatever – Ganesh’s various threads spring to mind, as does the one by Jub. I should also give an honourable mention to Goodness Gracious Meme who’s written a lot there exploring the boundaries between counselling/psychotherapy and magical practice (an area I’ve no small interest in myself). So, come in the waters lovely!!

Though R’yleh may lurk just beneath the surface ….
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:15 / 18.01.06
I tend to lurk rather than post in Temple, although I did start a thread (Talk To The Cynic) I think it was misinterpretted as a criticism of magical belief when it was genuine curiosity. But the place is full of passionate imaginative people and I enjoy reading the threads.

The harsh reductionist reality of the Scientist just integrates badly over there is all, in an Outer Church/Invisible College way (but with less leather).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:25 / 18.01.06
Yeah, I like threads like that and I wish we got more of them. I think it's vital to interrogate one's practice and beliefs regularly and through a number of different filters--outright scepticism being one of the most important such filters.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
07:35 / 18.01.06
And to be honest, I don't think I'm sufficiently 'spiritual' to get past the front door. To answer your questions, I don't wonder about my relationship with the infinite.

Can we say, then, that this goes for most posters who don't involve themselves with the Temple? It's a simple lack of interest in things spiritual, just as I don't usually wander into the Policy because I have little interest in discussing the manner in which the board is run?
 
 
Seth
08:34 / 18.01.06
A lot of the comments in this thread could reasonably apply to any of the forums if viewed from the outside. Couldn't the Comics forum be seen as a loony bin in which MODOK is given semi-serious consideration? Is there not a general shared language and near religious fervour in the Music forum that puts some people off? Do people who know nothing about science get scared off by the Laboratory, or more conversational posters get put off by what they see as a fairly exclusive level of theory-bitching in the Headshop?

These questions are all based on comments I've seen around the board. I'd like to see this broadened out to the whole of Barbelith, if it's to be of any worth at all. Largely because I'm starting to wonder whether we shouldn't just adopt the standard Barbelith moderators approach to what seems to be a onethreadpermonth phenomenon of Temple forum meta-critique and I'manoutsidertoallthismagicstuff perspective: index the many, many threads in one topic and direct all discussion there.

It seems that there’s a very different moderation approach that goes on here. On the rest of the board we discourage a lookatmeI’mnew! approach and tend to direct people to the FAQ on matters of posting etiquette. If there’s more than one discussion on a subject then we tend to direct discussion to the one place. I’m now at the point at which I’m wondering why standard Barbelith practise hasn’t been followed in this area, why more discussions whose stated aims are to question the beliefs of the Temple forum regulars are welcome rather than deleted and the thread starter being directed elsewhere to catch up on the debate and the background.

Don’t get me wrong, I love it when non-Temple forum regulars post there. I just prefer the tack that Haus takes: he integrates. He spends time reading the forum, he posts here and there in a manner that’s informative and on-topic and respectful to the thread. He asks good questions. What he doesn’t do is set up hermetic bubbles within the Temple Forum, almost like a diving bell, in which the thread starter can breathe their own air while looking at all the interesting flora and fauna in the Aquapark Zoo. Safe spaces are created in which debate can be had on the terms of the person starting the topic, and the forum stays a ghetto.

I think these threads are probably welcomed by people belonging to the Temple forum because of a chequered history of trolling, apparent mental illness, historical feuds and a general suspicion that brains are being turned off. The people regulars are anxious to show their best faces in order that the forum/ideas are accepted, so happily volunteer on an almost Grill-A-Christian basis. It’s sometimes enough to make me wonder whether we’ll get Alpha Course equivalents cropping up in the Conversation, and I’m only half joking…

Now, bundling up all these threads and writing some kind of FAQ would be seen by some as an attempt to create further exclusivity, but it’s really only in microcosm what the ethos of the Barbelith is in general. We encourage people to read before posting, to enter into existing debates, to not announce their coming, to integrate with the board and acclimatise the culture there. And that’s what I’d like to see more of: people who will happily take part in the Temple as it is. Who will raise the general standard of debate, who will bring their rigour and – more importantly - themselves into a forum which would benefit from having them. I’d rather do without the people who will only do that on their terms and won’t appear outside of the little topic they begin, because that very method of initiating conversation is what people see as condescending, regardless of the type of content you think you’re putting in the thread. What you’re saying is: these are my questions, this is the space I’m making for them, this demonstrates that I’m not going to look for existing threads of this type, and more often than not the questions will assume or presuppose that the forum regulars are all of a type rather than the hugely diverse crew they actually are in practise.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:39 / 18.01.06
Do people who know nothing about science get scared off by the Laboratory, or more conversational posters get put off by what they see as a fairly exclusive level of theory-bitching in the Headshop?

Um, I'd say yes. (I have a similar relationship with the Lab to that I have with the Temple, for example).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:41 / 18.01.06
Fair enough--so maybe one of us should pop along, start a Universal Sceptic thread with links to previous such discussions, and then instigate a policy that people starting "I'm a sceptic but..." threads are directed there? In as polite a manner as possible, of course, and with much encouragement to jump into other discussions within the forum.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:44 / 18.01.06
(That last post in response to Seth, of course.)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:45 / 18.01.06
Thing is, I don't really see it as a problem- I'm happy lurking there. I'm sure other people will feel differently, what with being other people and all, but I don't really see it as a problem with the forum, its posters OR me as the lurker. Or indeed a problem with anything.
 
 
HCE
09:05 / 18.01.06
Perhaps I misread Tuna Ghosts's initial post, but it seemed to me to ask about content rather than form. Although fervor, shared language, and a general air of being forbidding to outsiders may be common across fora, the content of the Temple strikes me as pretty distinct. I haven't heard anybody doubt whether music or comics exist, and I would say that one's belief in the existence or reality of (fill in the wide variety of things covered in the Temple) is pretty central to how you view the discussion that takes place there.

I personally do not post there because I have a baseline view of the world that makes me closed off to templeish things to a degree that bars me from making any useful contributions there. Perhaps one day I will feel a need for a spiritual life of some kind and things will be different.
 
 
Seth
09:14 / 18.01.06
Are those perceived differences sufficient to suggest that the Temple forum is treated differently in the way that it is moderated, though? Do we have a *duty of service* to give account of ourselves in a manner that is different from the way in which the rest of the board would when approached in certain ways?

Dirty Ho's second paragraph is also enough to make me think that we should change the Temple forum abstract. What do other people think we talk about in there? Looking at the abstract it's pretty inadequate.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:20 / 18.01.06
I think most posters in the Temple would be interested in such a thread and would even welcome it.

They wouldn't be interested in the thread I envisage and I would be very surprised to find that I was truly interested in a thread that could be reasonably started on this subject in Temple.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:22 / 18.01.06
For my part, I have a great deal of interest in "things spiritual" - just because of the context in which I grew up, I think I'm always going to have a fascinated, love/hate relationship with various forms of religions, faiths, and belief systems which involve things other than cold hard scientific rationalism. However I acknowledge that there's a big difference between that and being an active practitioner of any kind. I try to temper any posts I make in the Temple with an awareness of the limitations of my own experience, while at the same time, I still believe that it can be a good thing for different, possibly critical perspectives to be brought into that environment.

I also strongly sympathise with Smoothly's comment about the difficulty in keeping up with other fora about which one knows more, let alone one where one's knowledge is more limited. I'd like to say more in this thread and plenty of things in Money $hot's thread, but it's always a question of finding time to write responses worthy of the level of discussion demanded...
 
 
illmatic
09:31 / 18.01.06
For the sake aof arguement, Nina, what is this thread you envisage?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:49 / 18.01.06
That would be the thread in which I can tell people that when you imagine things they're not actually happening.

I think you see my problem here- it sounds like an insult when really I genuinely think it's what's happening a lot of the time and that everyone imagines things. That doesn't mean everyone won't rightfully defend themselves against that claim. Unfortunately there's very little that a person can put into words that will convince me that their brain isn't making things up. If I feel this way about evangelical Christianity then it probably has to extend to everything else as well.

Trying to explain why I care that people are just making things up is even more difficult than people explaining why they're not.
 
 
Spaniel
09:51 / 18.01.06
Petey, your first paragraph mirrors my experiences and thinking. I was brought up around mystics, believers, Crowley, RAW, and hallucinogens. My mother is a fairly conventional (if socially liberal) CoE church-goer, my father and God parents (and swathes of my extended family) have generally trod the more occult end of the spiritual spectrum. Throughout my teenage years I was fascinated by Buddhism, Hinduism and all manner of new-agier pursuits, along with science, western philosophy, and rationalist perspectives. Since then I've struggled to marry what on the face of it are opposing systems of belief, and, if I'm honest, the spiritual thinking has been largely replaced by a more materialist/existential paradigm.

Quite frankly, I don't think I'm ready for the Temple. I'm not clear enough about what I think, and I have a lot of prejudices to work through.
 
  

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