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Old dog learns new tricks

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Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:03 / 16.01.06

Aaanyway... Alex's and Nina's questions are interesting to me, because they do raise a perennial problem when talking about experiences of this type. I mean, I've just spent the best part of 9 months engaged in a Big Magic Project, but if you ask me what I've actually got to show for it, I got nuthin'. I've been being all Mystical. My result wasn't something I could put in a bag or photograph, because "a better relationship with the Norse Gods in general and Loki in particular" does not show up on film.

All I've got is some increasingly crowded harrows and my (often pretty manic-sounding) journals. No weeping icons, no stigmata. I can't even flag up any dramatic changes in my life. I can point to subjective stuff like somewhat improved motivation and a slightly better sense of what I should be doing with myself, but that's about it.

If I can ask, M$, how's the non-Porridge world treating you? I was wondering if you'd needed much time away from work to cope with all this, and if so had you formulated a 're-entry' plan. How does your current way of being impact on your day-to-day life in terms of priorities, keeping the basic stuff together? (By basic I mean things like day job, household chores, selfcare ect.)

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

11:23 / 16.01.06

Well, I've just had a week off work due to the worst case of conjunctivitus of my life...I couldn't open my eyes, I looked about 300 years old.

Much better now, though.

In terms of integration into ordinary life...I was pretty astral after my week retreat, but only in the sense of having to do tai chi and mudhras fairly non-stop. Like, anywhere, in the street, in a restaurant, didn't matter. Calmed down after a week, though.

Aside from that, which ain't that bad, it is the most positive thing I have ever done...it has made me very serious about my work, given me vast reserves of inspiration, and the mental apparatus to deal with it properly.

I have turned a huge corner in respect of getting shit done. It probably helps that I work in a creative industry, for myself. It is dovetailing into my creativity in a very powerful way, I have met a whole heap of geniuses who I am now working with, which is about as good as it gets, frankly. Learning so much.

What more can I gush? This weekend I finally got out and got a load of artist materials, and started drawing and painting again. I literally am pouring out works of devotion at the moment...portraits of my family, Goddess, what I've seen, writing hinos, songs, poetry, I've got two large-ish woodworking projects on the go...I'm sorting my studio diary today, I've got about 15 finished songs to produce...man, I am bursting with projects.

On top of that, my interest and education in nutrition and cleansing, Tai Chi and Yoga are on fire, and I've met so many people who are bloody experts on the whole topic...so many teachers, it's the greatest blessing of my life.

What can I say? It's all about 'real' or 'ordinary' life...As Mythic and Magic Kingdom as the sacramental journey may be, the trabalho, the work, begins proper when you take these teachings, these immense lessons and learnings back into your life and manifest them for yourself, your family and your community. Its inexorable, and very gentle, and incredibly beautiful. Clarity. And. Healing. That is what I go for, that is what I ask for, that is what I receive. Viva SD.

11:27 / 16.01.06

I think M$'s answer to Alex' gran was the model of clarity. Cryptic? Not at all.

Plus, re: "asian babes": sexuality as a source of magical power, who ever heard of such a thing?

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

11:30 / 16.01.06

household chores

Interesting that you mention that, actually, I had a trabalho before in which my I Ching came up as Hexagram 37, Household, or Family, and it was at a very pertinent time and circumstance...

It is the foundation on which all success in life sprouts from, and that work woke me up, starkly, to the utterly interconnected and holistic nature of my entire life...as strong as the weakest element within it...at the time, my household. Easy to become wrapped in work to the expense of the home, adopt an attitude that 'once this is flying, I'll deal with that'...

So it transformed me, and believe you me, my Mrs. could not believe the shift. Total. Transformation.

Great is the wisdom of that Oracle, and there's nothing like a few glasses of Porridge to brand it's guidance into the bones and brain.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

11:33 / 16.01.06

I wasn't talking about sexuality or pornography in relation to magic. I used the Asian Babes metaphor because I see that publication as representing a pretty clear (and rather foul) example of white fetishisation of nonwhite women, to indicate why the terms used might be seen as problematic.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

11:33 / 16.01.06

Also, in regard to why I do any of the things I do, now, total shift in motivation and reason for bothering, which has freed me from some really unhealthy attitudes I was harbouring.

My entire purpose has been redefined, and stripped back to very simple, pure and devotional motivation, and I can't really ask for much more than that. It is making me so happy.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

11:39 / 16.01.06

...and, by the natural consequence of happiness with awareness, rubbing off on my family and community, of course.

Love and gratitude, meus irmaos. Guiding principles.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

13:44 / 16.01.06

Do these represent valid, non-cryptic answers to your questions, btw, Nina?

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:12 / 16.01.06

I find it curious that my Mrs. (as dusky and dark skinned as the duskiest and dark skinningest among them) met the selfsame sprites, wihtout my having ever told her about them...

That's not that curious, is it? Presumably you and your partner have a lot in common, to the point where you could be said to have a communal unconsciousness - I often find that I and my partner find ourselves thinking about the same things, anticipating things to happen in the same way, without directly discussing those things.

I did find some of the language used a bit troubling, as per Mordant Carnival's posts. But I'm trying to express that in as non-combative a way as possible, and also, I'm genuinely interested in how our existing cultural preconceptions shape our religious experiences.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

14:59 / 16.01.06

Well, yes, but because it is a phenomenon you recognise does not, to me at least, make it any less curious.

I find communal consciousness to be a very curious thing indeed.

Ahhh, ain't they cute? The visionary ones were a bit less caucasian, more ethnically diverse, but basically close enough.

So, after the initial encounter with the gang, the next work I attended one of these little sauce-pots singled out of the crowd, a dusky, super exotic, smoky Empress, and basically seduced me there and then. She told me she was my protetora, my protector, and my healer, and she basically is the most beautiful creature I have ever laid eyes upon, the most seductive, nyyeeeeeeagh!, sultry, flirty and goddamn gorgeous aspect of feminine perfection I could ever hope to encounter. Mixed race, and just blam! Perfection. Ooh yeah. She encourages me to take a break from the works, to lie down and allow her to work her magical mysteries, healing and being very naughty indeed ;-)

Which specific phrases are troubling you? Be as combative as you like.

Tryphena Absent

16:12 / 16.01.06

Do these represent valid, non-cryptic answers to your questions, btw, Nina?

Money $hot I don't think you want my answer to that because it involves asking you some very personal questions.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

17:21 / 16.01.06

Now that's cryptic.

Ask away. (Assuming you care for the answers that much). I can either choose to answer or not, after all.

Tryphena Absent

17:49 / 16.01.06

Is your relationship with your partner open or monogamous?

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

18:17 / 16.01.06

Unflichingly honest, but 100% monogamous.

Pourquoi?

We are neither of us the possessive type and quite understand that marriage, while it may mean many things to many people, does not entail death from the neck down...

Was that it?

18:42 / 16.01.06

Sorry MC, no offence intended!

[Though lets not allow a delightful thread to get bogged down with charges of sexism or other -isms when it's quite clearly not worth the candle!

]

18:57 / 16.01.06

Unflichingly honest, but 100% monogamous.

Wow, if thats not magick, I dunno what is

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

19:33 / 16.01.06

Golly, I do feel 'under the microscope'. I've prepared the slide myself, haven't I?

Set magnification to maximum.

Does my encounter with my feminine anima make me...well, what does it make me? How much of 'me' can be drawn from such an encounter?

If you think I have a mind, please, feel free to offer your psychoanalysis, however hypothetical. That seems to be where this is leading.

I wonder how much a given analysis reveals about the analyser and how much about the analysed. That must be an interesting aspect of such work...Ganesh? Surely you learn at least as much about your'self' as you do about another 'self' once you start picking around?

23:28 / 16.01.06

I'm starting to miss when this thread was about sharing wonderful experiences, instead of who's more witty. C'mon people, let's shake hands and be friends, pretty pleeeease?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

03:02 / 17.01.06

Dead Megatron: Good greif. Do you honestly believe that the only motive that people might have for raising concerns here (regarding language used, regarding the nature of the experiences described) is a desire to seem witty? People are asking questions because they feel it's important that those questions be asked.

One of the things that makes the Temple special is that it's not about unadulterated backslapping. People ask questions. They interrogate their own and other's practices. And yes, if you use certain kinds of language you may well be called upon to clarify what you mean.

If you want people to 'shake hands and be friends' you might do well to consider your own remarks a bit more carefully.

Personally I think this thread is one of the most amazing things I've seen in a while and I'm looking forward to reading more of M$'s adventures. But I still don't think it's somehow sacrosanct and immune from the same standards as the rest of the board.

07:23 / 17.01.06

I stand corrected. I just wanted this thread not to be about what's real and what's not. It seemed a bit off-topic, that's all

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

08:09 / 17.01.06

Hey, its all fine by me. I welcome the input and questions.

Though I have to point out that I am absolutely tickled pink by the fact that in a thread largely concerned with the manifestation of a demonic Adversarial presence within the human psyche, most likely Satan himself, plus attendant horde, the fallen angel and his host, whose modus operandi is Deception and who waits on every action, every decision, every moment of intent, looking for a means of approach, a chink in the armour of human agendas to take possession of that moment and steer consequence out of the Light, to further his own Mysteries - darkness, despair, ruin, defilement, absence of that Light - in this thread, the major concern, the source of troubling distress, is my description of Oxum, Orixan Goddess of Love, Sensuality, and Carnal Pleasure as 'dusky, exotic and mixed race...gorgeous...seductive...feminine perfection...'.

Don't get me wrong, I recognise the whys and wheretofores, and respect and acknowledge the reason and motivation of Petey for highlighting it, and querying it. But in context, it has made me chuckle.

Tryphena Absent

08:18 / 17.01.06

Was that it?

So this is real but you haven't cheated on your partner?

08:25 / 17.01.06

I'm pretty sure Oxum would appreciate your comments and welcome them as a compliment, M$. And she probably would refer to you as "meu branquinho lindo" (I'm assuming you're caucasian, correct me if I'm wrong) or something to that effect.

08:28 / 17.01.06

That's an interesting point: if you make love to a god/goddess, are you cheating on your human partner? My vote is for "no", but I'm not a big fan of monogamy, anyway (for men, women, or anyone in between or beyond)

08:47 / 17.01.06

Oshun is "dusky, exotic and mixed race...gorgeous...seductive...feminine perfection...". That is rather the point of Lady Oshun. Her Mysteries. Ori Ye Ye O. Money$hot's description of Her is totally on the money, as it were.

Having a relationship with a love deity is not "cheating on your partner". That's absurd and doesn't even warrant a response.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

08:54 / 17.01.06

Why's it absurd? What's the difference between humansex and godsex?

That is a genuine question.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

08:59 / 17.01.06

Well, alright, it's a rather disingenuous question. But I still think it's useful to tackle these things.

09:06 / 17.01.06

I'm with MC on this one. How issex with the gods, anyway? And I don't mean the moral-social implications as much as the actual physical experience. Is it like having a 600-hundred year orgasm, or it feels more like a mental thing? Give me all the sordid little detais

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:11 / 17.01.06

Oh good grief.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:21 / 17.01.06

That's absurd and doesn't even warrant a response.

I have to second Mordant's question as to how it is absurd and unworthy of a response. I've no problem comprehending how a sexual encounter with a deity-figure could be compatible with a loving long-term committed relationship with one's partner. However, I don't really understand why one would choose to describe that relationship as "100% monogamous", if one is also maintaining that the deity and the sexual encounter are as real as that relationship. If your relationship allows for real sexual encounters with real beings other than your partner, then it's not monogamous as I understand the term - which may be all to the good, I'm not privileging monogamy over polyamory or any other relationship pattern here.

Gotta say, I find it a little troubling that some people here (Dead Megatron, 2stepfan) don't think it's appropriate for accounts of real experiences to be discussed or examined in certain terms. Kudos to Money $hot for not being one of those people...

09:27 / 17.01.06

Well for a start, Oshun is love and sex and pleasure and joy. She is present within these things. She is the Goddess of these things. If you have sex, Oshun is present. She is the Orisha of "all the things that make life worth living". If she turns her back on you, these mysteries are no longer a part of your life. I think its pertinent to note that in Money$hot's vision of Oshun she appears physically very similar to his wife. All loving, sexual relationships are a part of the Mysteries of Oshun. They are Hers.

If we were talking about an instance where Oshun possessed another human lady and Money$hot had sex with that lady ridden by Oshun, we would be on shakier ground. But that hasn't happened. Although, even if it did happen I would read it as a direct intervention from Oshun pointing towards problems already present within the relationship that the hypothetical Money$hot had cheated in. The actions of the Orisha are always an important communication that should be considered and paid attention to.

If Oshun had possessed the hypothetical Money$hot's wife for a night of lovemaking, then that should be considered a blessing on that relationship. You can't think of the Gods as "love rivals" in a human sense, because they are not humans. They might appear to us with human-type personalities, but they are best considered facets of existence.

By comparison, in Haiti, male devotees of Erzulie Freda keep a separate bedroom free for the Divine Mistress who owns the mysteries of love. They must keep one night a week free when they make love to their Goddess, who visits in dreams if she chooses to. They are not allowed to have sexual relations with their wife on that night, because it is sacred to Erzulie. It is made divine. In the same way that offerings of rooster, goat, rum, drumming and dancing are made sacred. This is part of the culture of Haitian Vodou, and I suspect the way of looking at things is not too different in Brazilian syncretic religion. They are the Gods. The principles of existence. Physical communion with them is sacred. Their presence is divine. You shouldn't really take a tabloid "sex scandal" view of it.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:34 / 17.01.06

As I understand it (and bear in mind that I'm speaking from second- and third-hand information here and quite possibly talking rubbish), a relationship or encounter with a God, whilst sometimes experienced in a way that might be described as sexual, is generally more in the nature of 'ecstatic union with the Divine' rather than what one would consider sex in the usual sense.

(It may be more complicated than that, I know, because I've run into one or two celibate 'wives' of certain Gods...)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:36 / 17.01.06

Sorry, cross-posted again.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:39 / 17.01.06

If we were talking about an instance where Oshun possessed another human lady and Money$hot had sex with that lady ridden by Oshun, we would be on shakier ground. But that hasn't happened.... If Oshun had possessed the hypothetical Money$hot's wife for a night of lovemaking, then that should be considered a blessing on that relationship.

But unless I'm badly misreading what Money $hot has posted in this thread, then neither of those things are what happened, are they? What I'm interested in understanding is what is understood to have transpired here, and how that relates to a concept like monogamy. The way that the experience has been described, it seems it would be insulting to describe it as merely drug-aided masturbation, a particularly vivid fantasy that took place only in one's head. Therefore, it seems we are being encouraged to interpret it as a real encounter.

You can't think of the Gods as "love rivals" in a human sense, because they are not humans.

I'm not too hung up on the issue of humanity, which is why I made a point of not using the word "human", or even "people", let alone "love rivals", in my last post.

You shouldn't really take a tabloid "sex scandal" view of it.

I wasn't aware that I was.

09:42 / 17.01.06

However, I don't really understand why one would choose to describe that relationship as "100% monogamous", if one is also maintaining that the deity and the sexual encounter are as real as that relationship

Well it's the "do Angels cut themselves shaving?" factor isn't it. If Gods are real, they are real in a very different way to how humans are real. They could be considered, for the sake of argument, the abstract principles of the Universe given sentiency and human form so that humans may interact with them. I don't think terms such as monogamy and polyamory, as they apply to human relationships, are really applicable to relationships with deities because: humans are not deities and deities are not humans.

Has there even been a sexual encounter? Are we not just talking about a vision in which Oshun appeared in the form that Oshun generally appears and behaved in accordance with her mysteries? What do you actually mean by a sexual encounter with a deity?

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