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Hating Children

 
  

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:29 / 20.12.05
Quantum, your mum's ace.

Isn't there some sort of differentiation between children and teenagers, though? My irrational fear of children is entirely different to my perfectly rational fear of teenagers.

I once got mugged by a bunch of kids (about twelve of them, probably about 13/14 years old). It was really embarrassing, because I stood there and did nothing while they took my stuff. UNTIL, that is, the point when I told a friend about it, and he said "look. If you'd done anything, and it'd kicked off, you'd either have been beaten up by children or you'd have beaten up some children. Either way, you wouldn't come out of it well".
 
 
Char Aina
17:43 / 20.12.05
does anyone else keep getting the dead kennedys in their head?

i too have been mugged by a gang of kids. thing is, i was a kid too, and so should have kicked their fucking heads in.
instead i told the BYT(for it was they) member that he punched like a girl and that i had no money and walked briskly home, hiding my sobs and wondering what to tell my mummy.

i dont know why they didnt chase me. i couldnt outrun a stoned hedgehog back then.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
17:45 / 20.12.05
Did you ever know that you're my hero,
and ev'rything I would like to be?

And the possessor of a sense of humour. A rare commodity round these parts.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:55 / 20.12.05
tokisk... I feel I should warn you. God told me to skin you alive.
 
 
Quantum
18:00 / 20.12.05
when children wait patiently(or not) in a shop queue but are patently ignored until all the adult customers have left

God damn that used to drive me absolutely batshit as a kid. I was really short so it was doubly bad, always ignored just because you're young, fucking shopkeepers. Now as an adult I am always courteous to kids, let them go in front etc. because I think they should have more respect as people.
Also, leading by good example never hurts.
 
 
■
18:09 / 20.12.05
Your pals may be avoiding you not because you have a baby per se but because you're coming across - to me - as particularly hypersensitive of and hypercritical towards anyone expressing a negative opinion of children.

Well, in my case it's because I'm usually too drunk to leave the house in this miserable dark winter. Nothing about kids or their attitude at all.
I think there's something about Barbelith that often does make you take what seems like a very inflexible line in order to not get (sneered at/heckled/torn apart) for inconsistency. TTT and NG are pretty pragmatic people, but if someone forces them into a corner or go for irrelevant insults about names, well...
 
 
Ganesh
18:14 / 20.12.05
Cube, I'm perfectly prepared to accept that the way NG and TTT are behaving over this particular subject on Barbelith doesn't map onto their Real Life behaviour. Colour me extremely relieved.
 
 
Cherielabombe
18:15 / 20.12.05
Hmm, I don't really know how to put this. How about this? For the most part, I like children. I have two younger brothers who are much younger than me so I spent a lot of time with children growing up. I nearly always enjoy spending time with friends' and relatives' children. I've also spent some very rewarding time working with children at various jobs throughout my life.

Often, though, children - especially children I don't know - irritate the fuck out of me. They're messy, they're loud, they scream their heads off for the entirety of the flight, sometimes they're usually in a boisterous mood right when you've got a screeching headache, and they get upset about ridiculous things.

But hey, I cut them some slack - they are children after all, and they're just being kids.

The thing that annoys me much more than kids being kids is parents who let children say and do whatever they want with seemingly little or no regard to the effect that has on others' life. Case in point: This evening walking home, I found myself having to dodge a 3-year-old on a scooter. At first I was annoyed, then thought, "Hey c'mon he's just a kid having fun." But then I thought, "What the fuck are his parents doing letting this kid scooter his way through a crowded bus stop at rush hour on the sidewalk of a major street in Central London?! Isn't this the time to tell little Johnny 'Not now?'

Recently there was a big controversy at a restaurant in Chicago because the owners had put up a sign requesting children behave and use their 'inside voices' at the restaurant. Some parents got so angry they actually organized a boycott of the restaurant! Doesn't it make sense to teach your children to be considerate of others?

Maybe this is the grumpy old lady in me. Baah!
 
 
Char Aina
18:27 / 20.12.05
depends on the restauraunt, innit.
if it was a burger king banning kids' parties... well then thats a bit shit.
if it was the 'maison de la paix' then i can definitely understand the desire to keep the place serene.
 
 
Quantum
18:29 / 20.12.05
Baah!... or the grumpy sheep, possibly goat. Ewe hate Kids. *falls over laughing at weak pun-ishment*
 
 
Cherielabombe
19:17 / 20.12.05
Call me the grumpy sheeple.
 
 
■
19:59 / 20.12.05
I want to write a book or form a band called Grumpy Sheeple now.
 
 
grant
20:07 / 20.12.05
Recently there was a big controversy at a restaurant in Chicago because the owners had put up a sign requesting children behave and use their 'inside voices' at the restaurant. Some parents got so angry they actually organized a boycott of the restaurant!

Mission accomplished, then.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:25 / 20.12.05
Sorry, have I been hitting the pipe a little hard or did TTT:AG not elsewhere say:

People that feel like that should be soundly bludgeoned.

How does that square with all this moral high ground stuff like:

I have, Nina; but I've never joked with a friend about beating his or her partner or child.Have you?

Only, right now it does seem rather like somebody may be falling into the "having a child makes me right about everything" hole.
 
 
Cherielabombe
20:35 / 20.12.05
Oh, here's an article about the restaurant controversy, just for your perusal..
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
20:47 / 20.12.05
I wasn't claiming that people who do joke about such things are morally inferior, but just like hitting children, it's not really something I joke about.

I think lots of otherwise offensive stuff is allowed in the name of comedy, and I don't doubt that I've joked about seriously tasteless stuff in the past.

However, "Soundly bludgeoned" is a phrase an English teacher of mine used to use, along with "Beaten about the Head and Shoulders with a large stick" when people were wrong. But you're right, it looks bad that way.

Bit of a derail, but eh.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:56 / 20.12.05
Apart from anything else, I'm really failing to see where all the rabid child-hate in the original thread. Three jokes, and that's about it. (But maybe they weren't inspired by English teachers, so that might be a cause for concern.) There's a fair bit of panic in this thread now about teenage tearaways, but Barbelith's willingness to indulge in a bit of Daily Mail-friendly "oh no those scary proles in their hoodies!" seems to me a very separate issue from the idea that somebody won't think of the children...
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
20:56 / 20.12.05
As for the restaurant stuff...

Yeah, "have to behave" is fine, although I'd rather it said "All patrons have to behave and use their indoor voices" just because I like the idea of all these adults being told that.

Banning kids is shitty, but usually a non-issue. Kids don't usually want to go to those places already. Although NG and I already encountered a restaurant that refused us a reservation because we had the baby with us. So we're not going to eat there again.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:08 / 20.12.05
As a non-parent, but one who counts among his best friends some parents... there are child-friendly pubs, where I will go with my friends who have kids. There are also child-non-friendly pubs, where I will go and be fucking glad of the lack of children.

(To be honest, I tend to judge pubs on whether they let dogs in or not. I may not have a dog at the mo', but old habits die hard.)
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
22:42 / 20.12.05
If it's acceptable to hate adults for being loud, obnoxious and annoying I think logically it's okay to hate children for being so too.
And because generally you don't(or at least I don't) notice children until they opt for public displays of irrationality and temper they kind of give themselves a bad rap. (Sorry for being flip about hating children in a thread asking why it's acceptable to be flip about hating children but quite often it's only these nightmare children that stick out in the memory)


This is my entire point - those who have been expressing loathing, hatred and general dislike for children when behaving badly seem to possess just the same dislike and disdain for the bulk of adults when behaving the same way (as do I). So I wonder why are children particularly the subject of this ill will, to the point that all children can be loathed on the basis of the behavior of a selection of noticable ones? Don't nightmare adults stick in the memory just as much?

Matt: I find most humans I've met to be dislikeable. There, I said it. Children just annoy me more maybe because N. American society elevates them to sainthood (unless they were "hoods"). So it's almost like they get away with being little snots.

If it's their perceived protected status which irritates you, is that because you feel unjustly excluded from being allocated some saintliness a priori - children are automatically forgiven any infractions, but adults are not?

At least with adults, you can take them to task. With children, there's parents ready to defend them

Not in Quantum's bus example there weren't. Do you actually take adults to task over their behaviour where you wouldn't do so to a child - in public, for example, to a stranger - and expect them to respond with equanimity to being told off by a random person?

Stoatie: Isn't there some sort of differentiation between children and teenagers, though? My irrational fear of children is entirely different to my perfectly rational fear of teenagers.

Yes, I think there is. Teenagers are easily feared because they are perceived as being on the verge of acting like adults, or acting badly as some adults continue to do, and therefore many people are likely to be wary of them when on buses for example on the basis that they are quite possibly going to be busy testing their particular boundaries in public and in front of their friends and peers as well as the adult world.

You fear children, rather than hate them, though... how does this fear express itself? I know you don't fear my daughter, for example - or do you? - but in what way do you feel fear when around her friends at parties for instance?
 
 
Shrug
23:20 / 20.12.05
This is my entire point - those who have been expressing loathing, hatred and general dislike for children when behaving badly seem to possess just the same dislike and disdain for the bulk of adults when behaving the same way (as do I). So I wonder why are children particularly the subject of this ill will, to the point that all children can be loathed on the basis of the behavior of a selection of noticable ones? Don't nightmare adults stick in the memory just as much?


Oh I just mean when they scream really loudly and throw tantrums on public transport or in shops. It's an extreme irritant. If more adults did that I'd re-consider my opinion on us as a whole. But generally we don't.
Plus I meet and socialise with adults on a day to day basis most of them are pretty unobtrusive. I very rarely am exposed to children unless they are related to me (thereby getting some leeway refer to my original post) or make themselves known via the aforementioned screaming.
It's an exaggeration for me to say that I hate children as an identifiable group it's just that quite often their only occurence in my world leads to me grinding my teeth.
 
 
ibis the being
23:23 / 20.12.05
Wow, I think this may be the most depressing thread I've ever seen on Barbelith. And I'm not a parent, so no there's no cause to paint me as the "rabidly defensive" parent of snotty little brats.

I also thought Ganesh's post(s) to NG extremely mean-spirited and uncalled for. I fail to see how NG was being abrasive... I have to agree with her point that if most adults take an antagonistic view of children, then childhood must be "endured" - that's a rough way to live - loathed by most people you meet.

There seems to be a serious lack of understanding of children and childhood among the posters in this thread. Maybe try reading a book or two about child development before crabbing about how awful they are. Infants scream because they lack any other mode of communication. Toddlers throw tantrums because they are testing boundaries and can be easily overstimulated. Kindegarteners willfully disobey because they are exploring independence. And so on.... Kids are not evil, nor angels, they're just young people still learning how to think, emote, and cope with stress.
 
 
Shrug
23:36 / 20.12.05
If it helps any when I was a child I pretty much felt the same way about adults as I do about children now. (And yes it's a generalisation so not indiscriminately) I used to loath having to talk to my parent's friends, thought adults were soooo booooring, just wished they'd shut up and be entertaining for once etc.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:25 / 21.12.05
Ibis: Look again.

If the adults you encounter are anything like the ones you encounter on this message board enduring would be your only option.

What does this say?

1) That Nobody's Girl is singling out the people on Barbelith as exemplary of what makes childhood bad.
2) That all of Barbelith are of this bad sort.

Please to explain where you get your "most" in "most adults" from. NG is generalising to the detriment of everybody on this board, you're buying into that generalisation, and I don't really see what sort of behaviour has led to the conclusion that Barbelith is a seething nest of child-hatred. Further, of course, nobody until NG had used the term "endure", much less in italics.

More generally on this point: I think many new parents go through a phase not only of being right about everything, but of feeling terribly the pain of everyone else being wrong. It's perfectly natural, but it isn't conducive to friendly discussion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:39 / 21.12.05
(Above awaiting moderation - it's syntactically incomprehensible at present)
 
 
Jack Fear
01:53 / 21.12.05
More generally on this point: I think many new parents go through a phase not only of being right about everything, but of feeling terribly the pain of everyone else being wrong.

Entirely true in my limited experience (i.e., myself). I know, in hindsight, that I was utterly fucking insufferable.

I got better. I got over it. I—well, I grew out of it.

And those around me, those against whom I was rubbing my scratchyscratchy righteousness, would doubtless have preferred that I grow out of it a lot more quickly than I was doing.

This even though some of them were themselves parents, and had thus been through it themselves.

Which brings us somewhere close to full circle, doesn't it?

Near enough for me. I'm done.
 
 
Ganesh
02:05 / 21.12.05
Haus: thanks for explaining the sweeping generalisation of NG's which led to my 'mean-spiritedness': I'd also like to draw attention to the fact that that sweeping generalisation (and the - to me - unreasonably snarky post it rode in on) was in response to (what I considered to be) a characteristically level-headed contribution of Mr Fear's. Who has a child, and therefore may be Correct in his opinion.

*shrug*

Such apparent readiness to generalise the charge of child-hatred to an entire online community on, IMHO, the flimsiest of grounds, in someone bitterly lamenting being neglected/abandoned by her Real Life friends since giving birth might well be contributing to said neglect/abandonment. Cube assures us, however, that this is not the case, that NG's online spikiness on the subject of children is not being carried through to Real Life encounters. Which, assuming the rest of her pals would concur with Cube, is surely a Good Thing.
 
 
Ganesh
03:24 / 21.12.05
There seems to be a serious lack of understanding of children and childhood among the posters in this thread. Maybe try reading a book or two about child development before crabbing about how awful they are. Infants scream because they lack any other mode of communication. Toddlers throw tantrums because they are testing boundaries and can be easily overstimulated. Kindegarteners willfully disobey because they are exploring independence. And so on.... Kids are not evil, nor angels, they're just young people still learning how to think, emote, and cope with stress.

I don't think "serious lack of understanding" is the problem here - in fact, if I'm being mean-spirited, I'll mean-spiritedly suggest that the above is frankly rather patronising. People generally understand that children don't wilfully, consciously set out to irritate simply because they're eeevil or for the hell of it: that understanding does not stop them occasionally being irritating or completely dispel our irritation when they do behave this way.

(Rough, flippant off-the-top-of-my-head analogy: wasps. Really, truly, deeply, I understand that wasps aren't here on the planet simply to piss me off. I understand they're motivated by stuff that's not, in fact, all about me, and dentist-drill whininess around my head makes perfect sense in terms of waspy psychology. Knowing all this, they're still frequently an irritant.)

No. It's how we manage that inevitable irritation that appears to be the issue. Rather than giving the tantrummy child in question a good kicking - or, indeed, smiling beatifically and burying our noses in child development textbooks (did plenty of that when I studied Child Psych, ta) - most of us discharge that irritation by grumbling about brats and/or their crappo parents, or through black humour. I don't think that necessarily maps onto "hate" at all; in fact, I see it as a healthy coping mechanism.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
03:55 / 21.12.05
So I wonder why are children particularly the subject of this ill will, to the point that all children can be loathed on the basis of the behavior of a selection of noticable ones?

Well, bear in mind that the question we were asked was about kids. Had someone started a "why do people hate adults" thread I'm sure people would have pitched in with equal gusto.

(Oh, and btw T-M- no, I don't fear your daughter. She's kind of the exception that proves the rule, I think... well, partly that and she's kind of making me rethink my general "anti-children" stance).
 
 
Quantum
09:24 / 21.12.05
Barbelith is a seething nest of child-hatred

I was starting to hate children as a group, until Ibis put me right with that post- turns out they're not wilfully screaming at me, they just can't communicate any other way! Who'd have thunk it? Colour me surprised, I'll revise my opinions on those socially challenged evil midgets, their behaviour is clearly not their fault. (/%)

Anyway, I was thinking about this last night and I remembered how much I hated most children when I was a child. Lord of the flies, anyone? Ever thought "Children can be so cruel"? I don't hate children per se, but I've always been a bit of a misanthrope and I don't see why children should be exempt from that. I think it's entirely fair to hate children who exhibit particular behaviour just as you hate adults for the same, and I don't think the perceived hatred-of-children-as-a-group is terribly prevalent, just hatred-of-antisocial-behaviour, which children frequently display for obvious reasons i.e. youth.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
09:56 / 21.12.05
Such apparent readiness to generalise the charge of child-hatred to an entire online community on, IMHO, the flimsiest of grounds, in someone bitterly lamenting being neglected/abandoned by her Real Life friends since giving birth might well be contributing to said neglect/abandonment.

If I thought your reference to that thread was an honest attempt at constructive help, and not a cynical and frankly cockish attempt to score points off of NG, I'd be more understanding.

But then, there must be a reason that most people we know don't post such personal stuff to Barbelith, eh? At least we now know not to post here when really upsetting and traumatic stuff happens in our lives.

Any sign of weakness is like blood in the water to some of you, it seems.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:58 / 21.12.05
Entirely true in my limited experience (i.e., myself). I know, in hindsight, that I was utterly fucking insufferable.

I wouldn't feel too bad about it, J. From my limited knowledge, I imagine it's an evolutionary necessity - certainly if I approached childrearing with the same diffidence that I approach, say, work or shopping, the results would be apocalyptic. Maybe your brain triggers certainty in order to get stuff done.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
10:07 / 21.12.05
More generally on this point: I think many new parents go through a phase not only of being right about everything, but of feeling terribly the pain of everyone else being wrong. It's perfectly natural, but it isn't conducive to friendly discussion.

Okay Haus - Then what's your excuse for acting in the same fashion?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:08 / 21.12.05
Public school education?

Well, TTT:AG, different people approach Barbelith in different ways. Some people talk about their private lives, others not. However, NG started this situation by presuming a divine right to be rude about everybody else on Barbelith without repercussions, which right appears not to exist.

Honestly, I'm finding the whole thing a bit bewildering, and have done since you decided to express your unhappiness that your friends were not coming round as often as they used to, but in order to avoid those friends on Barbelith seeing it, you.... repeatedly bumped a thread to the top of the Conversation by talking about it.

Now, you can continue to presume divine right, in which case you will continue to perceive yourselves as the undeserving and innocent victims of monstrous, child-hating aggression, or you can consider that maybe, just maybe, there's a bit of give and take required here.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:42 / 21.12.05
Coming in late, but can I really be the only person who doesn't routinely get irritated by children and has never had to endure one of those apparently hellish experiences on a plane or in a cinema? Hmmm.

Personally, I have a lot of sympathy with kids who, imho, have a hard time of it. Bodily changes, new environments and having to learn acceptable modes of behaviour from scratch seems like a pretty tough list to me. But, and I mean this as much as a question as a statement, I do get the impression that people are irritated by the very presence of children sometimes. This seems to me to be mean spirited at best.

One experience that comes to mind is a time I was at a conference in a small, isolated village in Crete. My friend and colleague who attended came along with a 5 year old child in tow, but there were no babysitting provisions. This meant that the child was present during much of the conference, but not the talks, and I did my bit to look after the child so my friend could give her own talks and attend seminars I wasn't interested in. Despite the fact that the kid was very well behaved, the mere presence of a child was pretty unpopular, and I couldn't help but notice the odd disapproving look in my direction as well. My friend saw as a manifestation of de facto sexism.

I realise that that kind of judgement is complicated, but it might be a different way to see some of these issues.
 
  

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