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Hating Children

 
  

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Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
08:44 / 20.12.05
Musing on some of the flippant and frankly kind of nasty comments made in this thread (even if they are intended to be funny) got me thinking of our attitudes toward children, particularly coming from those of a "subcultural" bent.

When did it become okay to joke about hitting children and otherwise hurting them? I recognize this is an acceptable type of comment for many to make, as when I was a teenager I might have made similar comments, but I still don't understand why grown adults act is this fashion about those smaller than them. If I made similar comments about a minority group I would be rightly derided or at least challenged on my statements.

Why is it acceptable to hate kids?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:02 / 20.12.05
I s'pose because we've all been kids at some point whereas people are never going to experience being a different ethnic group, and are unlikely to experience a radical change in sexual identity.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
09:14 / 20.12.05
I think that should make us more kind to kids, not less.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:28 / 20.12.05
Well, a good place to start might be to think of other ways in which children do not resemble ethnic, cultural or social minorities, and go from there. One difference is that we have all experienced being children - therefore the experience of having been a child is universal, in the way that the experience of being black, say, is not. You believe that this should make people less inclined to joke about hdisliking children. Others clearly disagree.

So, that's difference the first. I have to shoot off, but have a think about some others and let's catch up later.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:32 / 20.12.05
I would presume that my comment in the thread is one of the ones you are refering to?

I'd written:

Surely it's acceptable if it's talking during a film? Even if the horrible thing isn't yours.

I apologise firstly if you found this disturbing in some way. Personally I have no strong feelings one way or the other about children. Neither the post itself, nor any of the other non-serious posts (and there are only two or three at most) makes mention of the poster hating children. Although I do call them horrible. But then I find certain cheeses horrible, it doesn't mean I hate them.

Do you feel that hatred of children is something that is condoned by our society? I don't see that myself, quite the opposite in fact, as children are recognised to be vulnerable and are protected to a far greater degree than adults. Which is as it should be.

Now my comment is an exaggeration of the minor irritation I feel when children talk during films. But I'm annoyed when anyone does that. Normally I find that my usual tactic of snarling "Shut the f**k up!" is less effective when the target is a child with an accompanying parent.

So, do I feel I would be right to smack someone elses child for annoying me in a minor fashion? Of course not, it's utterly unreasonable and out of all proportion (and I believe they call it Assault in the courts). Hence my following sentence where I said:

People? Surely?

Hopefully giving the impression that I was utterly alone on the whole cine-slap agenda.

Still, if it bothers you that much I don't mind deleting it. It contributes little to the thread. Let me know.
 
 
Ganesh
09:50 / 20.12.05
I think that should make us more kind to kids, not less.

Others might well think differently. As has been pointed out, we've all had experience of being kids and are likely to have formed varying opinions based largely on this direct experience.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
09:54 / 20.12.05
No, it's not about the fact that someone made a flip comment or about being overly serious about something that was clearly intended to be a joke - it just made me consider something that I've felt for ages, and helped me to pin down my thoughts on the matter.

I mean, if someone joked about smacking a talkative woman, we'd all be horrified. Now, someone might feel the need to point out that children aren't women, but that doesn't mean the comparison doesn't bear thinking about. They are still people, and should be treated with the same consideration.

Partially, this is due to my experiences as a teenager in Ohio. There is a law in Ohio called "In Loco Parentis" that means a child is required to obey any adult in absence of a parent, or is liable to be arrested if said adult wants. To me, that is crazy batshit madness, but it's law. Add to this the fact that legally children in America are more akin to posessions than people, and that children are not guaranteed any constitutional rights such as free speech, etc. and I'm sure you can see the root of my concern. I knew a 14 year old girl in Juvenile Detention where they send teenagers for crimes such as assault and rape because she refused to do the dishes. Perhaps I see what amounts to acceptable ageism more readily because of these experiences. However, I don't want anyone to remove or delete anything. I'm not trying to shame people, I just wonder why certain attitides and behaviours are more acceptable when aimed at children.

And yes, in many ways our society is about protecting children, but that cuts both ways. More and more it seems we are stopping children from being capable creatures, wrapping them in cotton wool well past any time when it is needful. Kids should be protected from exploitation, abuse, etc. but protecting them from life is a bit much. (Once again, something personal here - my mother and little brother are visiting for the holiday, and you'd think he was fucking dying the way she treats him. I'm surprised she doesn't chew his fucking food for concern for him choking.)
 
 
Jack Fear
09:54 / 20.12.05
The obvious angle is that much of the anger/hate aimed at children is in actual fact anger at parents. A poorly socialized child can make a movie or a plane ride a living nightmare, but really, we all know who's at fault.

It's awfully tempting, though, to blame the victim, particularly since that victim is the one whose kicking and screaming are immediate and catastrophic and actively irritating, whereas Mom and Dad's ineffective pleading, their spineless simpers, their whiny little cutesy voices, the slow and relentless incremental fuck-ups that led them to this place where they are in utterly over their heads and now everyone within a fifty-foot radius is reaping the whirlwind—well, that's merely disheartening.

And following on from Haus: Childhood is also a temporary state, whereas race, sexuality et cetera are generally permanent. We've all grown up, so we all know that childhood can be beaten, can be gotten over, given time and effort—which may make us less sympathetic to kids than to those whose identity-signifiers cannot be so easily surmounted.

So, for instance, we can grin and bear it when a paraplegic slows our progress through a revolving door: after all, the poor bastard can't help it. But if it's a whining child clinging to its mother that impedes our passage, then we—who were once children, but who got better—naturally enough respond by thinking, Jesus, kid, would you just grow up?!?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:54 / 20.12.05
I'd start by questioning the premise, really - when did it become acceptable to hate children? It still hasn't, really. We're still recovering from the Victorian conception of the child.
 
 
Sax
09:55 / 20.12.05
Because for quite a lot of people, children are hateful little things that shit when they want to, refuse to listen to reason, eat biscuits until they are sick, wail throughout long-haul flights, throw sweets at strangers, scream during movies, and burst into tears when you have the gall to tick them off for slobbering on your Patrick Cox shoes. So long as they're loved by their parent(s)/guardian(s), then that's enough for them.
 
 
Ganesh
09:58 / 20.12.05
I can certainly remember being a child who, on occasion, was distinctly hateful - whereas I cannot recall ever having been a "talkative woman". I guess it's about having experienced both sides of the equation.
 
 
Ariadne
09:59 / 20.12.05
Well yes - I remember being a child and I was a selfish, horrid wee monster. I'm much nicer now. I think!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:05 / 20.12.05
Surely the fact that we can't have those children arrested is the reason we joke about it? Because humour is often about feeling powerless (in this case to help or punish those children).
 
 
Jack Fear
10:11 / 20.12.05
Yeah, but I'm not sure that cuts it as a reason. I mean, neither are we in a position to (for instance) bury two million [ INSERT HATED ETHNIC / RELIGIOUS / SEXUAL MINORITY HERE ] up to their necks in catshit—and it ain't just because we have (as the punchline goes) not enough catshit. That doesn't make the joke any less hateful.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
10:11 / 20.12.05
I definitely feel that Jack Fear got to the crux of the matter. Thanks, Jack.

So we've all been kids. Great. In what way does this excuse a bias against children? Or, as Nobody's Girl just said to me about this thread "I'm a woman, but if I said something sexist about women that doesn't make it acceptable."
 
 
Jack Fear
10:23 / 20.12.05
Like I said: Childhood can be overcome, whereas once a woman, always a woman (at least for the purposes of this argument).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:26 / 20.12.05
Have you never said "I could have killed her" about a friend when she's annoyed you? (Or he)
 
 
Nobody's girl
10:43 / 20.12.05
Childhood can be overcome? What, like surviving cancer? It's an impediment to overcome? Anyway you can't overcome it one has to live eighteen years before not being a child there is no other way around it, therefore I suppose it's more a case of enduring childhood. If the adults you encounter are anything like the ones you encounter on this message board enduring would be your only option.
 
 
Jack Fear
10:45 / 20.12.05
Doesn't the air get awfully thin, up there on your high horse?
 
 
Ganesh
10:50 / 20.12.05
So we've all been kids. Great. In what way does this excuse a bias against children?

I don't think it completely excuses it so much as makes it an informed bias ie. as we've all had variable experiences of being a child (and how hateful we were/weren't as children), we're likely to have formed differing opinions on the general hatefulness of children.

As has been said, the condition of childhood is not only universal but temporary - so it's perhaps easier to characterise one's aversion as dislike of an individual at that specific point in time (ie. screaming in a restaurant, wailing on a 'plane) knowing that, in a few years, they're not going to be the same person.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
10:50 / 20.12.05
I have, Nina; but I've never joked with a friend about beating his or her partner or child. Have you?
 
 
Ariadne
10:54 / 20.12.05
I've never joked with a friend about beating his or her partner or child. Have you?
Regularly! I often say I'd like to kill someone too, but it doesn't mean I'll do it.

Most people find children annoying, get used to it. They're half-formed, with little idea how to behave and you know, that gets tiresome to those of us who aren't their adoring parents. It's not their fault, I agree, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend I like spending time with them and their runny noses.
 
 
Ganesh
10:55 / 20.12.05
If the adults you encounter are anything like the ones you encounter on this message board enduring would be your only option.

And you reckon your friends aren't coming around as much as they used to?

(Point: fewer snide generalisations all around, please.)

TTT: I actually have joked with friends about throttling, drugging, murdering their partners and children. I guess that's medical humour...
 
 
Ariadne
10:58 / 20.12.05
I'm sorry, I was being grumpy and shouldn't have posted that.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:03 / 20.12.05
Well yes, "I'm going to take her head and rip it off her neck. Arrggghhhh" was the exact phrase spoken in an over-exaggerated voice I believe. I wouldn't expect anyone to take this any more seriously than "I'm going to kill her" or "I could kill her" or even, in fact, "I could murder a drink". They're expressions of irritation, some to do with people, the last to do with thirst.
 
 
Ganesh
11:04 / 20.12.05
Ariadne, I pretty much agree with those sentiments. Perhaps it's a factor of many of my friends working/having worked in professions where an evolved sense of gallows humour is an everyday coping mechanism, but we frequently make sick jokes about our own and each other's nearest and dearest. In many ways, black humour serves as a valuable escape valve, a relatively 'safe' way of saying the unsayable, tacitly communicating and acknowledging negative feelings without those feelings festering into something more solid.
 
 
Spaniel
11:15 / 20.12.05
I would ask, who is hurt by the occasional joke about putting kids in cages? That's the most important question, IMO, because, as far as I'm concerned, it's not clear that anyone actually is, afterall British and American culture still elevates children to the level of saints. You know, I might go out on a limb and suggest that's potentially far more damaging.
 
 
Brunner
11:31 / 20.12.05
I don't hate children but I can say that generally, I don't like them. I don't want any of my own (and so far my partner agrees). It could be to do with me being too selfish to be a father and is definately something to do with other people's kids being annoying brats when I'm wanting some peace and quiet.

I often wonder whether I should have one or two to ensure I have someone to spend Christmas with when I'm old, or have someone to wipe the dribble off my chin in the old folks home, but then nothing is guaranteed.
 
 
Sax
11:33 / 20.12.05
The thing is about children, is that they're just people. Really. They can be pretty annoying, and they can break your heart, and they can make you feel really special when you do something simple like lift them up so they can touch the ceiling, but they're just little folks. I find it a bit odd that throughout these several threads people on all sides of the argument are referring to them as some abstract concept, or maybe like they're kittens or measles.
 
 
Brunner
11:37 / 20.12.05
But Sax, although I know they are just small people, I ACTUALLY DO think of them like kittens or measles!!!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:42 / 20.12.05
I think the crucial point here is that until Tom Tit a) changes his godawful username, and b) stops reacting in such a shrieking hysterical defensive fashion on the subject of children, these discussions are unlikely to progress much further...
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:44 / 20.12.05
Ganesh, I fail to see the connection between my scorn at the open hostility to children on these boards and my pals avoiding me 'cos I have a baby. I think it's rather mean of you to use my pain to score a point like that.
 
 
Spaniel
11:46 / 20.12.05
Well, in defence of Tom, it's my experience that new parents can get ferociously and irrationally defensive of children, and, frankly, I think that's pretty understandable. I also don't think that the Smacking Children thread has been derailed, it's just been diverted, and some of the new scenery has been pretty interesting.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
11:50 / 20.12.05
...afterall British and American culture still elevates children to the level of saints.

Unless they are wearing hooded tops and baseball caps, in which case they are pretty much treated as suspected criminals.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:52 / 20.12.05
Ah, but they're not children anymore then. They're "yobs".
 
  

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