Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Conversation >

Hating Children

Page: 1(2)3 4 5

11:54 / 20.12.05

Yes, there is a tension there, but I think it's the product of a number of conflicting cultural narratives, and would probably be eased if we, as a culture, approached childhood a little more realistically.

11:55 / 20.12.05

Was responding to Tango Mango

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:57 / 20.12.05

Which is to say, they've probably discovered sexual or violent urges, and are therefore unclean!

12:01 / 20.12.05

Anti-children.

Mon Oncle Ignatius

12:02 / 20.12.05

Which is to say, they've probably discovered sexual or violent urges, and are therefore unclean!

Perhaps these violent urges could come from being smacked (or worse) as a child?

12:13 / 20.12.05

Perhaps these violent urges could come from being smacked (or worse) as a child?

It's certainly true that abused children do sometimes become abusers.

However children can also use violence when they realise that the absolute worst thing that will happen to them when they're violent is a stern talking to.

It's only one isolated example. But a friend of mine, a teacher, often has to deal with violent children who are well aware how protected they are by law and happily exploit that protection to harm others.

How does one protect children from children?

12:15 / 20.12.05

Put them in cages. Which, I think, is where we came in.

12:18 / 20.12.05

However children can also use violence when they realise that the absolute worst thing that will happen to them when they're violent is a stern talking to.

I'd assume that said children are likely to have experienced violence or bullying in their own home.

12:19 / 20.12.05

I think we're starting to have two threads covering the same ground, now. Perhaps it's best to confine violence against children and the possible results of it to the smacking children thread, and use this for general kid hate.

12:21 / 20.12.05

Tru dat

12:23 / 20.12.05

Bloody kids.

Mon Oncle Ignatius

12:26 / 20.12.05

Just imagine if they grow up to be bisexual!

12:34 / 20.12.05

Or worse...Tories!

Mon Oncle Ignatius

12:41 / 20.12.05

Parent: "So, child, what would you like to be when you grow up?"

Child: "A revolutionary anarcho-syndicalist"

Parent: (whack, slap!)

Child: "Ow! Leader of the Conservative Party"

Parent: (beams)

Tryphena Absent

12:48 / 20.12.05

"I'm going to call childline"

12:51 / 20.12.05

I parented children who were small not so long ago. Their ages and my finances meant we all stayed home a lot in the evening. We watched videos at home or only really-kid- friendly ones in the cinema. We ate dinner mostly at home, but occasionally in restaurants with mostly lousy food and annoying child-friendly atmosphere, because young children in a quiet, "tall-tippy wine glasses with candles on the table" place are, quite simply, likely to be disruptive or annoying to others. In fact, they are likely, in that space, to cause me, as a parent, more stress just focusing on keeping them within bounds.

When we had nights out sans children--which were rare because we just didn't have the cash to pay sitters very often--it was a kind of treat to go to places where there were few or no children around, where we could be away from the whole child-centered culture. (Which didn't mean that we wouldn't wind up talking about our children for half the meal...). I, for one, would be sad if there were no child-free zones--bars and restaurants that just aren't child-friendly. And I would have been even sadder about that when I had young children in the house with me, because we sometimes, simply, needed a night away.

Saying this is NOT the equivalent of "separate but equal," as the premise of this thread seems to suggest. No, it's an acknowledgment that childhood is distinct from race and gender as a social category, as others have pointed out.

I view jokes about children from this perspective--we make them all the time in my family as my sister has recently given birth to her 8th child. (Yes, her 8th.) I love my nieces and nephews, but I think my sister's a little nuts. So sometimes the absurdity of the whole situation (which to me is kind of a microcosm for the general overpopulation of humans on this planet) devolves into jokes about children. The jokes aren't being made, I think, to shore up "us vs. them" notions (as is typically the case of ethnic jokes) so much as to express the general fucked-up nature of the whole sad human race.

13:02 / 20.12.05

Jack Fear: The obvious angle is that much of the anger/hate aimed at children is in actual fact anger at parents. A poorly socialized child can make a movie or a plane ride a living nightmare, but really, we all know who's at fault.

I think Jack Fear has hit the proverbial nail on the head (or the proverbial child on the bum). It's generally the parents who are at fault. On the other hand, I'll give you a couple of examples why I loathe children.

I went to see King Kong last night, and the theatre was full of teenagers wearing "hooded shirts and baseball caps". I didn't immediately think criminal, however. Anyway, throughout the entire movie, these kids walked to and fro, out of the movie, from one row to another, they talked, they laughed. You could hear their conversations while Kong battled dinosaurs: "So, Karen is a such a bitch, oh my God" etc, etc. The two girls behind me kicked my seat continually. I gave three half-turns, two full-turns/glare, and finally, one of these: "Stop kicking my fucking seat" This did nothing.

Here's another movie anecdote. Unfortunately, this was is a little bit nastier. I went to see Rent with a ladyfriend, and as we were walking in, there were two gay men walking in front of us, holding hands. Some teenagers sitting on the side watching all of us said loudly, "Fucking fags goin' to see a movie, huh? Fucking fags." I heard it very clearly, and so did the target of scorn. Then they followed the couple into the movie and proceeded to whisper things at them. Then, about half an hour into the movie, the kids stood up and said this: "Fuck this, Trevor. Leave the fucking fags." And they left. Isn't that nice?

Ariadne said children are half-formed. So I think one can blame the parents for forming such homophobic asshole children, so I also think there's another factor here. Sometimes, it's genetic makeup.

Ganesh said in another thread: they [Our genetic composition and early life experience] arguably set a good deal of our personality in stone.... So we can blame children for a good portion of their bad behaviour.

13:14 / 20.12.05

...the theatre was full of teenagers wearing "hooded shirts and baseball caps". I didn't immediately think criminal...

That's probably because you're not British and don't read the Daily Mail.

13:19 / 20.12.05

OT: By the way, TTT, re: There is a law in Ohio called "In Loco Parentis" that means a child is required to obey any adult in absence of a parent, or is liable to be arrested if said adult wants: I live in Ohio, and have studied the history of family law in the US, and I don't think your understanding of Ohio's "in loco parentis" statutes is correct.

As I understand it, the law is simply that children without parents or legal guardians may have specific, appointed persons identified who have the ability to act "in loco parentis," and under certain circumstances school officials and others have the right to make decisions for children under their care "in loco parentis." But that right is pretty strictly limited: anyone who has parented children in elementary school knows that you're constantly signing waivers for school-related activities--giving the school authorities the right to act on your behalf. (E.g., at the beginning of the school year I have to sign waivers to allow the school to call the ambulance for them in case of emergency or to allow my child to receive any medical attention if I cannot be reached. I have to sign waivers before every field trip giving permission and giving the school authority to take them and make decisions for them.)

Additionally it makes no legal sense to give all adults such authority (would in fact be a legal nightmare, esp. in the age of contentious divorces!) and there's no historical precedent for such a broad scope of parental powers so I doubt the credibility of the claim.
/OT

Mon Oncle Ignatius

13:33 / 20.12.05

On the other hand, I'll give you a couple of examples why I loathe children.

I went to see King Kong last night, and the theatre was full of teenagers ...

Agreed - there's nothing worse than a cinema full of teenagers busy ignoring the film they've come along to see and making the watching thereof impossible for everyone else in the auditorium.* A crowded bus full of teenagers at school chucking out time is a hideous experience - but I also found those to be uniformly awful situations when I was a child and teenager too.

As the quiet child trying to get home/away/watch the film while perfectly happily minding my own business and hating the noise and boisterous activity all around me - would you have been loathing me as much - or at all?

Some teenagers sitting on the side watching all of us said loudly, "Fucking fags goin' to see a movie, huh? Fucking fags." ...

There are homophobic adults too - how does this make the loathing of what these teenagers said specifically so qua children? Are teenagers more likely to be homophobic than adults as a general rule?

So I think one can blame the parents for forming such homophobic asshole children, so I also think there's another factor here. Sometimes, it's genetic makeup.

The anti-gay gene?

So we can blame children for a good portion of their bad behaviour.

Quite - but is it fair to blame (and then loathe) all children for the bad behaviour of a certain number of those children, especially when gathered together in groups?

As a more general point - do those who dislike/loathe/hate children distinguish between:

a) babies
b) toddlers
c) infants
d) young teenagers
e) older teenagers

and then go on to despise adults as much or less, as a generic mass of dislikable humanity?

(this is not a rhetorical question)

*Sometimes this happens with adults too, talking away during the quiet part of a film, or more usually a gig which they have presumably paid to enjoy for example.

13:40 / 20.12.05

Fucking teenagers. When I was watching King Kong I told a bunch of 'em to "shut the fuck up".

And they did. Yay!

Mon Oncle Ignatius

13:47 / 20.12.05

Bloody adults. When I was watching Faust (of all bands) at the Royal Festival Hall, one group turned to another set in the row of seats behind them and told them to "shut the fuck up!", or words to that effect. They didn't, a punches were thrown, with blood all over the place and emergency services summoned.

I loathe grown-ups.

13:51 / 20.12.05

I wouldn't say I find pre-language children as irritating as more developed ones. There's not really anything you or the parent(s) can do to stop a baby crying. It gets pretty grating if you're on a plane flight. But you just have to put up with it.

Luckily ,the last time I was in that situation, the friend I was with had me in fits with his realistic (and scarily accurate) quotations from the film "Willow" which has baby crying pretty much throughout.

Adults are just as annoying as children. But, as I said earlier, socially speaking it's easier to tell an adult you don't know that they're annoying you.

13:59 / 20.12.05

Tango, I'm really not sure the counterbalance to my post was needed.

Mon Oncle Ignatius

14:09 / 20.12.05

Boboss, you're right.

It wasn't really meant as a counterbalance to what you were saying as such (though it does read like that, sorry), more to respond to the general theme of those who dislike children's bad behaviour in public through paraphrasing your anecdote with my own. It was meant to indicate that adults can be just as annoying and occasionally more disruptive when challenged (or challenging - I don't remember now who threw the fists) in similar circumstances than children.

I should have put it better though.

14:14 / 20.12.05

I think your point came across, it's just that I don't think I needed to hear it - but then Barbelith isn't just about me, so maybe I'll just shut up.

14:30 / 20.12.05

Barbelith is so about you.

14:37 / 20.12.05

I should clarify: I don't hate children because they're noisy, homophobic and inconsiderate. I hate all people becauase they're noisy, homophobic and inconsiderate, among all sorts of other things.

Tango-Mango: So I think one can blame the parents for forming such homophobic asshole children, so I also think there's another factor here. Sometimes, it's genetic makeup.
The anti-gay gene?

No, just asshole, inconsiderate behaviour. IMHO, "anti-gay" behaviour is equal parts ignorance and intolerance. Whether or not "intolerance" is a gene is not something I can debate.

Tango-Mango: but is it fair to blame (and then loathe) all children for the bad behaviour of a certain number of those children, especially when gathered together in groups?

Well, no. If I did, that'd be ludicrous. But that's why the above were examples. I can't give my life-story and every confrontation with children. I can only say that the negative encounters with children vastly outnumber the positive encounters.

then go on to despise adults as much or less, as a generic mass of dislikable humanity?

I find most humans I've met to be dislikeable. There, I said it. Children just annoy me more maybe because N. American society elevates them to sainthood (unless they were "hoods"). So it's almost like they get away with being little snots. At least with adults, you can take them to task. With children, there's parents ready to defend them.

Boboss - was that an actual anecdote, or some sort of passive-aggressive attack at me? I first read it as attack, but on second read, it could be truth. I'm not trying to be rude. I'm just asking.

The Natural Way

15:42 / 20.12.05

I can assure you, being Boboss's twin and therefore able to read his mind, that he definitely wasn't attacking you, Matt.

Tango, yes adults can be just as annoying as teens but, come on, do you not dread a group of them sitting behind you during a film you really want to see? I've been to see three films over the past 4 weeks and every single one of them was disrupted by packs of teenagers.

I'll stop rotting the thread now.

15:52 / 20.12.05

Ganesh, I fail to see the connection between my scorn at the open hostility to children on these boards and my pals avoiding me 'cos I have a baby. I think it's rather mean of you to use my pain to score a point like that.

Let me explain, then. It occurs to me that your pals may be avoiding you not because you have a baby per se but because you're coming across - to me - as particularly hypersensitive of and hypercritical towards anyone expressing a negative opinion of children. Before taking swipes at the entirety of adults on Barbelith, it might not be a bad idea to consider the possibility that your own abrasive attitude - if you're projecting it as strongly in Real Life as online - might be making you rather uncomfortable to be around.

I'm sorry you think that's mean. My comments are motivated by more than simple point-scoring, though, as yours are doubtless motivated by more than the desire to piss on an entire message-board.

16:37 / 20.12.05

If it's acceptable to hate adults for being loud, obnoxious and annoying I think logically it's okay to hate children for being so too.
And because generally you don't(or at least I don't) notice children until they opt for public displays of irrationality and temper they kind of give themselves a bad rap. (Sorry for being flip about hating children in a thread asking why it's acceptable to be flip about hating children but quite often it's only these nightmare children that stick out in the memory)
And also because when my own nieces/nephews hulk out in public I have some context as to why this has occured, or if they say something off colour/incredibly stupid I can forgive them because it's counterbalanced by their general good behaviour/intelligence. Conversely when other people's children display similar behaviour I have no such context I can't bring myself to be charitable and just find the extremity of their actions at best brain-piercingly annoying or at at worst unnerving.

16:54 / 20.12.05

A crowded bus full of teenagers at school chucking out time is a hideous experience

Here's an entertaining anecdote for you- my Mum was on a bus home from work, there were a group of teenage girls at the back throwing things around the bus and screeching like harpies (not unusual). After getting whacked in the head by a sweet or something she turned and asked them not to do that. They screeched like harpies and continued, so the next time she got hit by a projectile she stomped up to them and tried in slightly more determined tones "Stop Doing That!". The ringleader (let's call her Vicky Pollard) jeered at her saying 'Wotcher gonna do, you can't facking touch me, if you touch me I'll sue you!' which needless to say infuriated my Mum (she said her hand itched to slap the irritating little fucker), who nevertheless wouldn't start a fight on a bus with anyone, never mind a teenage girl.
But Vicky was drinking orange juice, the kind that comes in a glass milk bottle, so my Mum simply whacked the bottom of the bottle, perfectly judged like a ninja so that Vicky threw cold OJ all over herself, the harpy posse froze in silent shock, fellow commuters pretended not to be listening intently while stifling giggles at the dripping girl with her gob hanging open looking like a twat.
My Mum (who needless to say ROCKS!) sat down to quiet congratulations from fellow travellers, who had often been intimidated by the harpies but were to shy to do anything (or even back up my mom, lightweights). She did get a different bus home for a while to avoid repercussions, but IMHO she dealt with the situation perfectly.

Was she wrong to discipline someone elses child? To escalate her complaint to bucket-of-cold-water level 5?

17:01 / 20.12.05

Sorry, spun for the wrong thread. My point was there are hate-inducing children, just like adults, and there seem to be more now than ever, a whole generation of spoilt brats outnumbering their delightful contemporaries. When they're adults they'll be rude irritating adults, I'm sure.

17:10 / 20.12.05

Your Mum does indeed rock.

17:10 / 20.12.05

That story, although completely different in most aspects, reminds me of something I find unforgiveable in adults: when children wait patiently(or not) in a shop queue but are patently ignored until all the adult customers have left or when they're crushed or nearly knocked over in the rush to get on to buses or trams. I think it's a pretty awful thing to ignore a child so completely to a status of non-existence even if you find them disagreeable.

Page: 1(2)3 4 5