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Hating Children

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10:57 / 21.12.05

If I thought your reference to that thread was an honest attempt at constructive help, and not a cynical and frankly cockish attempt to score points off of NG, I'd be more understanding.

You're a little difficult to understand yourself, TTT: I remain uncertain whether you're genuinely interested in other people's opinions on this subject (and other people have been courteous enough to approach it in this manner) or whether this is one protracted howl of anger at those you perceive to be wrong and/or to have done you wrong. I'm currently tending toward the latter.

But then, there must be a reason that most people we know don't post such personal stuff to Barbelith, eh? At least we now know not to post here when really upsetting and traumatic stuff happens in our lives.

If your aim in posting said upsetting and traumatic stuff is to elicit unconditionally sympathetic agreement while reserving the right to be snippy, defensive and frankly rude towards those whose opinions do not perfectly match your own, then no, perhaps it's better that you don't use Barbelith in that capacity.

See, to me it seems that - for understandable reasons - the subject of children, and other peoples' attitudes to them is something in which you're hugely emotionally invested. Which is all well and good, but you're not allowing much wiggle-room for anyone with a conflicting viewpoint. Which makes things difficult.

Any sign of weakness is like blood in the water to some of you, it seems.

Personally, I think you're the one here using Barbelith as a punchbag for projected rage which might well be better expressed elsewhere.

11:13 / 21.12.05

Oh, yeah, I love the bit about "blood in the water."

A hint, kids: When we who made the mistake of responding to this and the "smacking" thread as if they were honest calls for dialogue started finding ourselves branded as A BROOD OF CHILD-HATING VIPERS NESTLING IN THE BOSOM OF BARBELITH, I think it became apparent whose pot was black.

11:26 / 21.12.05

I do get the impression that people are irritated by the very presence of children sometimes.

It depends on the setting. When I'm around kids, I feel something of a pressure to act differently: I avoid casual sweariness; I tone down the smut 'n' campery; I constrain myself. I'm also acutely aware of their presence and, particularly with younger kids, my (little bit of) responsibility as an adult to ensure they don't come to harm. I find myself getting anxious when they wander near sharp pointy objects or whatever. It's a little harder to relax.

That might just reflect my own don'tdropit neuroses, but I've heard and read similar sentiments expressed by others. One increasingly-voiced variant is a worry on the part of adults regarding the suspicion with which any degree of contact with non-related children is frequently viewed. Perhaps the not-so-distant climate of stranger danger/paedo fear (don't appear unfriendly; don't appear overfriendly) has contributed to a generalised anxiety around other people's children?

Whatever the reasons, I suppose I think of certain spaces as being 'adult', and the introduction of a child - even a well-behaved child - causes me to feel and act slightly differently, and I think I often resent that.

11:28 / 21.12.05

I don't think "serious lack of understanding" is the problem here - in fact, if I'm being mean-spirited, I'll mean-spiritedly suggest that the above is frankly rather patronising.

Now, come on. That's not the same thing at all. Saying I'm being patronising is merely par for the course on an Internet forum. Now maybe if you'd said my being patronising is the reason all my friends have abandoned me, knowing I've been feeling lonely and depressed about losing my friends, that would be mean-spirited.

Tryphena Absent

11:37 / 21.12.05

Ibis you've suggested that babies scream because they are trying to communicate. Do you really think that it makes than any less bloody irritating when no one can calm them down and you're not at all connected to them?

Should we all pretend that we don't get frustrated by children or you know, just somehow magically stop ourselves through understanding them? Because I understand why babies scream and why children get upset and throw tantrums and why some adults drink alcohol and fall over in the street and why governments engage in so much bureaucracy but that doesn't stop me from feeling annoyed by it.

But you know if it's demanded of me I can just lie.

11:37 / 21.12.05

Now maybe if you'd said my being patronising is the reason all my friends have abandoned me, knowing I've been feeling lonely and depressed about losing my friends, that would be mean-spirited.

How about if I say everyone on Barbelith exemplifies the reason childhood must be "endured"? Or suggest you yourself do some further reading in order to truly understand? Lonely Planet's Selfawaria on a Shoestring, page 12, 'Getting There'.

Alternatively, if this is gonna be a game of Who's The Victim And Who's The Meanie, we could all take it to PM?

12:33 / 21.12.05

I just don't see why all adults must like children. Not everyone has the parenting instinct, and why should they? We're all different, and that should be accepted by both sides.

Kids are like cricket. Some people just don't like it. You can explain the rules all day, but understanding why you can play for five days and still have a draw isn't going to make you like it. And how about another example ibis. You're a dog person and seem to know a lot about dogs and training. But no matter how much you explain all that to someone who isn't a dog person, they're still not going to want to sit next to one on a flight. And why should they?

When I was a kid, while I enjoyed all the childhood stuff, I wanted to be able to go into the living room with the adults after we'd been sent to bed, and stay up later, drink wine and talk about grown up things. Now I'm an adult and I can do all that and I like it. I'm just not interested in children and they annoy me. So what? I don't harrasss children or lock them up - I just choose to keep away from them. I don't feel the need to pretend that I like hanging out with someone who can't provide me with the sort of copmany that I enjoy, and I find it rather irritating for someone to suggest that I just need to understand them better. Try telling a non Dylan fan that they just haven't listened to him properly. You'd probably get a smack, and it wouldn't be a symbolic one either.

I don't like kids or kiddy interests, therefore I don't have any nor do I work with them. I can put up with them occasionally and I respect that they have the right to do their thing as much as I do, and I fully support that. I understand why they do what they do, but why do I have to volunteer to let them do it near me, and why do I have to be interested in the same things they are? If I had a buck for every person who thinks forcing kids on me is funny, I'd have enough to send them on a one-way trip to the Neverland ranch. I've even had a co-worker bring her two children over to me and introduce them: "This is Loomis. He doesn't like children." Sod off. Is it so bad for us to like different things? I'll stick with my cricket, and I won't bore everyone with it and insist that they share my interest, and I expect others to do the same, whether that interest is gardening, sudoku or children.

12:42 / 21.12.05

Nice post Loomis. Hear hear!

12:50 / 21.12.05

When I was a kid, while I enjoyed all the childhood stuff, I wanted to be able to go into the living room with the adults after we'd been sent to bed, and stay up later, drink wine and talk about grown up things. Now I'm an adult and I can do all that and I like it.

I do too, and I think those are the things I like to do in the 'adult' spaces to which I alluded earlier - and which can feel a little compromised by the presence of children in those spaces. One is conscious of having to avoid becoming scarily drunk, talking about excessively grown up things, etc., etc. As my preferred ways to socialise, they're also the things I tend to miss when friends have children and it all becomes more complicated to arrange.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

14:53 / 21.12.05

One increasingly-voiced variant is a worry on the part of adults regarding the suspicion with which any degree of contact with non-related children is frequently viewed. Perhaps the not-so-distant climate of stranger danger/paedo fear (don't appear unfriendly; don't appear overfriendly) has contributed to a generalised anxiety around other people's children?

Oh yes. I remember once when I was out walking Biscy, this kid had come off his bike in the middle of some brambles- obviously he was very upset, and being a kid, was very noisily upset. Nobody else was around, so I held back on the fear of children thing, and lifted him out of the thing so he wouldn't hurt himself by doing the instinctive thing of trying to just pile through them and getting himself cut to shit. Of course, a whole bunch of people turned up AFTERWARDS... the kid seemed to be the only person there who DIDN'T look at me as if I was some sort of nonce. Dodgy-looking adult/crying child- well, CLEARLY something well-dodgy's been going on THERE!!!

I would say, fuck it, next time I won't bother, but... it wouldn't be true, really.

14:59 / 21.12.05

Yeah, I find it incredibly irritating that if I smile at children (which I do as a part of my ongoing 'smile at everyone and see who responds' experiment) it sometimes makes people fearful. I can understand kids hiding from attention behind their parent, just shy, but people being so afraid of strangers is weird. Most abuse occurs at the hands of friends or family members IIRC, strangers are statistically safer than your own family.

18:04 / 21.12.05

Quantum: try not rubbing your crotch while smiling. I've told you many times that the two don't strictly need to go together.

18:07 / 21.12.05

Admittedly, Seth, he is in Brighton.

20:08 / 21.12.05

it's the children that are making you fight.

can't you see it?

the children.

22:19 / 21.12.05

Somehow I managed to miss this thread in which Smoothly articulates my flat=deathtrap inability to relax around small children much better than I did.

06:01 / 22.12.05

Gosh. Upon finallly reading this I am almost flattered to be getting a telling off about being a bitch from Barbelith's two greatest bitches. Colour me astonished, Ganesh and Haus.

06:32 / 22.12.05

Well, NG, I guess at least now you're narrowing your petulance down to a couple of targets rather than Barbelith in its entirety, Colour you threadrotty at the moment, though. D'you fancy commenting on any of the more recent points raised within this thread? If not, we can all play Who's Da Bitch via PM instead.

08:56 / 22.12.05

Come to Daddy... Seth, why do the children always run?

08:57 / 22.12.05

Perhaps you could try not unfolding yourself naked from a broken television set?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:26 / 22.12.05

He tried not doing that once before. It, ah... didn't work out so well.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:13 / 22.12.05

Defensive, self-righteous, rude and not very thoughtful, yes. Bitch, I don't think I said or would say.

Now, Loomis and Ariadne both appear to think well of you, NG, and I respect their opinions and like them as people. However, your behaviour here is not showing you in a very good light. If I were you, I'd probably accept that you are not representing yourself very well here, and may be unable to handle this subject in an adult way at the moment - which is fine; you spend all day with somebody whose communication with the world primarily involves screaming and poo, you might start to think that screaming and poo are the best ways to communicate generally. I doubt we'll get an apology for your crass generalisations or abusive tone, because I don't think that is currently within your abilities to give, but a bit of reflection might not go amiss.

TTT: I seem to recall lots of people gave you support and advice in the Miserable thread, and have tried to engage with your question here as something other than a means for you to advertise how best you are at children best best. To forget conveniently about that in order to sink further into victimology seems inconsiderate and also inadvisable.

16:44 / 23.12.05

Another level-headed post from Haus. Sometimes I feel bad when I immediately get all up in someone's grill. Haus shows us the way.
(above not sarcastic)

Hey, threadrot maybe, but is that above picture of that Aphex Twin dude?

16:46 / 23.12.05

Yes, it is.

17:08 / 23.12.05

Back on topicish....
From Tango-Mango's post upthread:
I said: At least with adults, you can take them to task. With children, there's parents ready to defend them

T-M responded:Not in Quantum's bus example there weren't. Do you actually take adults to task over their behaviour where you wouldn't do so to a child - in public, for example, to a stranger - and expect them to respond with equanimity to being told off by a random person?

I think you've got me. But let's use my King Kong example upthread. Say it was an adult kicking my chair. I turn around to this adult kicking my chair and say, "Quit doing that, chuckles, or I'll..." Wouldn't the adult be embarrassed at this situation? He/she would know better, would know proper social etiquette - AKA don't fucking touch my seat. A child doesn't know as much about movie theatre situations. Or am I talking out of my ass here? I think a reasonable adult would say, "Oh sorry, I didn't mean to" etc. Only a jerkturd would feign ignorance about the most annoying thing possible next to impressions of Martin Lawrence.
So, IMHO, if you take an adult to task, they may be embarrassed at being confronted so publicly. But this might be my Canadian "avoidance of confrontation at all costs" talking. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but if someone turned around and said to me, "Don't touch my seat," I'd get all red in the face and apologize. Unless I was trying to piss them off. But that's another topic.
Children just don't know better. Or have we already decided that was bullshit?

17:55 / 23.12.05

i think you assume a standard of response among adults that is too narrow, and one among children that is rather patronising.

children may well know that what they are doing is wrong. they could be doing it precisely because it is, or because they value that rightness less than they value their comfort... or for a whole host of other reasons.
adults may not know or believe that what they are doing is wrong, and they may not be as concerned with being right and fair as it would seem you think they are.

i think the idea that kids act like cunts because they dont know any better, and the suggestion that adults dont because they do, is demonstrably false.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:58 / 23.12.05

adults may not know or believe that what they are doing is wrong, and they may not be as concerned with being right and fair as it would seem you think they are.

See, in that example, I'd probably not say anything for fear of getting a smack in the mouth.

Which is to say, I'm kind of with toksik on this one.

20:48 / 23.12.05

As I said, it might just be my "avoidance of confrontation" that's colouring my ideas.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

15:48 / 29.12.05

F. Petey Shaftoe: Killa! I'd start by questioning the premise, really - when did it become acceptable to hate children? It still hasn't, really. We're still recovering from the Victorian conception of the child.

Wasn't the Victorian conception of the child the one that they were adults, just shorter? Isn't it the reaction to the Victorian era that said they were helpless little angels and perfect and everything? I find it hard to agree with when parents use our children's library as a creche (despite the lack of staff in there) or sit by watching as they pull books off shelves or computers of desks.

ibis in furs Maybe try reading a book or two about child development before crabbing about how awful they are.

I've got to read books because strangers thought it was a good idea to reproduce now? Why do I have to make the extra effort because they didn't read the books about human overpopulation of a polluted, ailing planet?

I presume people have also heard of the inventor who has made a device that emits an annoying sound only audible to the child or teen ear, in the hopes of driving them away from lounging in public areas such as shopping centres and on to derelict waste-land? It'll probably be championed by the Daily Mail but I can't see it being widely used as there are a host of anti-social angles to the devices, not to mention attacking people who have committed no crime.

We can probably all give examples of good kids that are polite and never piss people off. But the simple fact is that on any given day I'm going to see more bad kids than good, and more often than not it's due to bad parents. As someone with no real desire to breed the obvious desire of those who do just does not compute for me, in many cases it's almost as though pregnancy and childbirth is some natural automatic process that women cannot avoid going through, like periods or the menopause. But that's stuff for another thread and my psychiatrist.

16:14 / 29.12.05

I presume people have also heard of the inventor who has made a device that emits an annoying sound only audible to the child or teen ear, in the hopes of driving them away from lounging in public areas such as shopping centres and on to derelict waste-land?

yeah, that's fucked up. the inventor was on telly looking really pleased with himself. it seemed to have not yet occurred to him that (as the device affects anyone up to the age of 20 and sometimes above) he would be driving away any teenagers.
i was a bit disapointed in the BBC for not asking him the awkward questions.

for one thing, who the hell is going to work all those shitty saturday shifts in your crappy shopping centre if there are no under 20s?

that, and the fact that as a solution to the problem, it is Cruel and Unusual and lacks any kind of compassion or discernment.

it kinda makes you wonder if some people were ever human.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

08:23 / 30.12.05

Yes, he seemed blissfully unaware that teenagers have as much right to be in these places as anyone else, or that not all crime is perpetrated by children with their strange ears. I expect Bluewater to invest heavily in these boxes as he did seem to be working on the 'hoodies=evil' principle. The boxes don't look that vandal-proof either.

Tryphena Absent

11:47 / 30.12.05

Wasn't the Victorian conception of the child the one that they were adults, just shorter?

Only if they were working class children! Victorian storybook children are like praying angels with lovely golden halos and perfect teeth.

20:24 / 02.01.06

As someone with no real desire to breed the obvious desire of those who do just does not compute for me, in many cases it's almost as though pregnancy and childbirth is some natural automatic process that women cannot avoid going through, like periods or the menopause. But that's stuff for another thread and my psychiatrist

I wasn't going to post on this thread - although I read it with interest - because my views on children and the general insanity/rabid righteousness of many new parents is too much of a tangled web for me to sort out right now but this above comment made my head pound with anger. Is it just that nobody has read it correctly or am I the only one who thinks this is complete and utter sexist bollocks? I guess the final sentence was meant to indicate the 'humourous' tone so y'know sorry if I'm overeacting but it comes as a bit of a surprise to see a piece of 'ism' being let go on this board. OK, I don't want to breed either and I am frequently disgusted at people who keep on doing so for no discernable reason other than egotism and biological drive, especially those with the means and education to avoid such a situation. However, I will point out that women - or so I hear - don't generally reproduce asexually.

15:37 / 03.01.06

Wait, your post was supposed to be better?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

12:53 / 04.01.06

Well, if you ignore everything else in that post then of course it's going to look bad. If you ignore how it's part of my larger point about bad children quite often coming from bad parents, bad parents being those that appear to me to have given no thought to whether they should have children, just that they do. Parents who, it appears to me believe they have rights but no responsibilities to them having kids. If you ignore all that then of course it looks like I'm a horrible person.

*

19:28 / 04.01.06

Well, obviously, Lady, you ARE a horrible person. If you weren't, you would know that THE CHILDREN!!eleventeen!!!

I do not hate children. I hate the person I become when I'm around them for any length of time. This is often abbreviated, in everyday speech, to "I hate children."

It's my opinion (not backed up by any particular evidence) that people who are willing to admit to not particularly getting along with kids are less likely to do them harm than those who just ooze childly adoration until the first time they get frustrated. Then they have no constructive way to respond— because it is taken as a truism that they love children, and at the moment they don't feel loving toward this one, and therefore this particular child must be "just doing it to make me angry," "in need of discipline," or "SPAWN OF DEVILS." I believe I've seen this happen with some new parents. I also think that some (note: "some" here means "some," and not "all") people who believe they could NEVER hurt a child are deluded about their own capacity for patience and self-control. I look at this, sometimes, as evidence that I'm doing good by making it known that I don't like children and don't intend to be a parent for the foreseeable future. I know there are situations in which I could hurt a child if I weren't quick enough to remove myself from the situation and calm down, because I'm not a very patient person. I don't think I'm unusual in this, because it is simply true that children are not darling little angels or miniature adults all the time, and expecting them to be is bad for them— even if it doesn't lead the person holding such unrealistic expectations snapping and doing something absolutely reprehensible (like the mother I saw in the airport a few days ago telling her child at great length that he was a moron, just like his stupid sister, because he tripped and knocked over a cup of liquid).

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