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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

The Cowboy Who Went Up A Mountain And Came Down A Gay Man

  
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
Mike Modular
13:13 / 16.01.06
There was a bit of laughter in my audience too. Not raucous, but then it wasn't a very big theatre... Seemed like a fairly mixed gay/straight crowd, mostly young.

FWIW, I think the reaction was a combination of shock, the fact that it was unfortunate (to us and for J&E) and embarrassing (for her and us) for her to catch them (aren't we used to laughing at 'wrong' things these days, like The Office or Curb Your Enthusiasm?) and possibly, maybe just at her gawping, jaw-dropped expression...?

Nervous release may be one explanation, but maybe, you know, it was actually quite funny in itself and doesn't necessarily mean people weren't taking the relationship seriously or had no sympathy for Alma. And, er, yes, I believe I did laugh myself (and probably mostly for Alma's face)
 
 
Spaniel
13:14 / 16.01.06
...'that's what you get for marrying a gay man, you stupid cow' faint contempt for Alma - because, at that point, we were all identifying with Ennis, Jack and the promise of hungry four-years-apart sex.

That did occur to me and I think a straight audience could have a very similar reaction.
If Alma was a better developed character by that point in the movie I think that kind of reaction could largely be avoided.
 
 
sleazenation
18:06 / 16.01.06
I do think the element of suprise (for the audience that hasn't read the short story)... also plays a factor in prompting some kind laughter response... it's a surprise for all the characters involved i think...

And on the empathy I don't think the 'poor cow' response is quite right, more a subtler form of shadenfruede - a recognition that the shit is going to hit the fan as a result of this...

What I find interesting is that people are talking about laughter at *this* point in the movie rather than the moment when the ranch owner spots them having some semi-naked boyfun...
 
 
Aertho
18:21 / 16.01.06
"stem the rose"

?

That's a strange euphemism.
 
 
Spaniel
21:12 / 18.01.06
Bobosso has just pointed out that whilst the UK TV ad doesn't feature Twist and Ennis Kissing, we do get a big ol' snog between Ennis and his wife.

For. Fuck's. Sake.
 
 
Psi-L is working in hell
22:55 / 21.01.06
Finally got around to seeing this tonight and thought it was wonderful and deeply moving...still thinking about it now and saw it hours ago and yet still feeling as brusied by it as I was when the credits were rolling.

Not got much to add really...but was suprised to find one of the first comments in the thread wanted more build up to the sex scene, as I thought that there was a considerable build up to it, just expressed though looks, gestures, body language and what was unsaid between the two men. I found the whole of that build up incredibly sexual and quite raw really. It reminded me of a similar build up to a relationship I started years ago with a man who at that time identified as straight, thus our attraction to each other was expressed in a similar fashion, with him not wishing to contradict his expressed identity and me not wishing to embarrass myself by getting it wrong or scare him off by being blatant about my feelings for him.

Will need to go see again I think to properly process it all. I can't recall the audience's reaction to the reunion four years later as I was a little too caught up in my own, but I did have two young teenage girls sitting in front of me who giggled throughout the whole sex scene which was slightly off putting.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:09 / 25.01.06
The taciturn Ennis, who seems to be straining everything he feels through the gravel in his voice, is the quintessential cowboy. It's as if Gary Cooper had turned out to be gay. He is also terrified of what is happening to him, talking of his love for Jack as "this thing", as if aliens have taken charge of his sex drive.

Just wanted to link to this review in the Sydney Morning Herald for those interested because I enjoyed it very much.

Been playing the soundtrack non-stop on my iPod for the past week and thinking I may have to start wearing the clothes too, having loved this film so. And Heath looked mighty fine at the Golden Globes the other night. Yessirree. Yeehaw.
 
 
Psi-L is working in hell
20:46 / 25.01.06
Thanks for that Xoc, that was a lovely review.

(Also not stopped listening to the soundtrack since seeing the film...will be talking in a Texan drawl and learning to play the harmonica soon too if i'm not too careful. I'm sensing the need for a Barb-fancy dress party, no?)
 
 
Benny the Ball
06:30 / 26.01.06
I saw it last night. Beautiful film. I was wondering what I would have made of the first glances between the two of them if I hadn't known that they were to start a relationship. One thing I was really pleased wth was that the relationship lasted all the way, it wasn't stopped by guilt, it was strong enough to be maintained until Jack;s death. It started rough and agressive, but the only real difference between the two men being rough and that kind of hollywood over passioned man and woman getting rough and getting it on thing was that there was always that element of the threat of actual physical violence. I liked that spitting became a signiture for blocking emoitions. Thought that Heath aged better than Jake (perhaps that's ehy he wore the moustache, to look older?). There was such a small amount of waste in the script and it was so simply done that there were no real faults. I loved the mumbling and the hats stopping eye contact.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:44 / 26.01.06
Saw this, with a seemingly mostly 3:1 straight/gay audience, on a Sunday afternoon NYC matinee about 1 week ago (very late in seeing this since its release).

No one laughed when Heath's wife saw the two kissing passionately, there were a lot of shocked gasps and maybe one or two nervous 'oh my god I can't believe that just happened, she totally saw them!' half-laughs.

Great film. Loved Anne Hathaway's going from 'great hair to cotton candy hair,' as one female friend of mine put it. I really liked how they showed the time periods elapsing, from the lead characters' lives to the fashion, cars and other time period watermarks in the environment.

My only critique would be Jake G. --- at time he seemed sort of miscast, not really IN the role. Maybe he just looks too much like a Gen X kid from California to me; you put him in the costume for this movie and he just looks kind of not quite there to me.

Heath ruled. Never thought he'd go beyond 'pretty boy in silly action/romance movies', but man, he sure did here. He really got down deep into his character. Sure, Heath had the more interesting character, with more internal conflict, Jake's character wasn't really as dynamic or compelling. He wasn't nearly as reluctant to embrace his homosexuality as Heath's character was. But I've had a few other actor friends of mine echo my feeling about Jake's performance...maybe there's something there. Some actors just aren't convincing, type-wise, as certain kinds of characters...one friend of mine said they totally believed Heath could be a cowboy but that Jake, despite costume and all, didn't look like a guy who'd really lived that life, he looked like a twentysomething actor in cool cowboy clothes.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:01 / 26.01.06
And I also have to commend Linda Cardellini - I barely recognized her when she first came on screen and I know her and her work very well. The usual great performance from her.
 
 
*
19:10 / 26.01.06
I think this is an important article to link here.

What was Brokeback Mountain but a brilliant film about two men on the down-low set to glorious music and enchanting scenery? "It's pretty clear that if they had been two black men it would have been a different reaction," says Keith Boykin, the author of Beyond the Down Low. "It would have been an evil, nefarious story about deception and disease. These are guys who blatantly cheat on their wives with other men. There's no way it would have been called a love story if they were black."
 
 
Aertho
19:15 / 26.01.06
One step at a time, Boykin.

Also, wasn't there someone here who had a ridiculously homophobic, but intelligent black college professor, and we had a fairly long thread about appropriate means to discuss said teacher's wrongness? Anyway, it went into detail about the black psyche, "the down low", and homosexual views in minorites. Worth a link, if someone can find it.
 
 
Ganesh
19:19 / 26.01.06
Complex 'what if', Entity. Did you ever check out this thread?
 
 
*
20:44 / 26.01.06
The problem of racially-biased images of homosexual activity among different populations, it seems to me, is not precisely interchangeable with the problem of racially-biased images of homophobia in different populations. If I'm missing someone's point, here, please, help me out; I'm worn down and easily confused right now.
 
 
Ganesh
20:49 / 26.01.06
No, but I think there are complex patterns of overlap.
 
 
*
21:08 / 26.01.06
I agree wholeheartedly; I'm just having trouble seeing how we got from one to the next.

I think it's pretty easy for me and people like me to talk about how the downlow problem is caused by the problem of black homophobia, but it's really incumbent upon me and my community to pay attention to the problem of racism and racial prejudice in the white queer community.

The author's point is that the downlow is not a "black problem." It crosses racial lines. But representations of married men having sex with other men in secret which depict white people are viewed differently from those which depict black people. Why? What's going on here? Is media hype around the downlow symptomatic of racial prejudice? How would your reaction be different if BBM depicted two black men, or an interracial relationship? If you think it would be unchanged, why is that? How is the scenario in BBM any different from "the downlow?" If it's simply an example of the downlow in which the men happen to be white, why is it that this is the only article I've seen which uses the term "downlow" in connection with the film?

On another note: I have skimmed the linked thread, and I'm not confident enough in my ability to address it properly, so I would prefer not to resurrect it. Maybe after I've finished a paper I'm working on, I'll start another thread in a slightly different direction.

I hope this isn't too threadrotty.
 
 
Ganesh
21:30 / 26.01.06
The author's point is that the downlow is not a "black problem." It crosses racial lines. But representations of married men having sex with other men in secret which depict white people are viewed differently from those which depict black people. Why? What's going on here? Is media hype around the downlow symptomatic of racial prejudice? How would your reaction be different if BBM depicted two black men, or an interracial relationship? If you think it would be unchanged, why is that? How is the scenario in BBM any different from "the downlow?" If it's simply an example of the downlow in which the men happen to be white, why is it that this is the only article I've seen which uses the term "downlow" in connection with the film?

I suppose I'm having some difficulty completely grasping the point here, possibly as a result of my being almost entirely ignorant of "downlow" to the extent of never having heard the term before. I think my reaction to a black or interracial Brokeback Mountain would be largely unchanged as a result of my own ignorance.

Not being familiar with "downlow", I've absolutely no idea why this is the only article in which I've seen it mentioned. I am familiar with "MSM" (men who have sex with men), and I've not read an article or review mentioning that either.

Is "downlow" a term used predominantly by and within black culture? From Younge's article, I concluded that this was probably the case - hence my linking to the previous thread. I think there's a need to have a stab at defining the audience: if, as is claimed, depictions of black MSM are viewed differently from depictions of white MSM, one has to ask, viewed differently by whom? I wonder whether some of the difference lies in the conception of homosexuality by some black people as a 'white man's disease' ie. white men having sex with men is seen as more 'understandable'.

I suspect that a black or interracial version of the film would've included other barriers of prejudice - as did Far From Heaven - within 1960s Wyoming/Texas ranch/cowboy culture. Films depicting homosexual relationships between males in which one male is married have not infrequently suggested that the unmarried male is 'seducing' the married one (The Leather Boys, The Victim). In a similar way, I suspect any depiction of an interracial homosexual relationship would run the risk of suggesting that the 'decadent' white man was 'seducing' his black counterpart away from the straight(er) and narrow.

Speculation, of course.
 
 
Ganesh
21:37 / 26.01.06
... it's really incumbent upon me and my community to pay attention to the problem of racism and racial prejudice in the white queer community.

I don't disagree, but I'm confused as to how this intersects with the idea of the "downlow", since this is a term I've never heard within the white queer community or anywhere else. Is it used specifically within the white queer community as a pejorative descriptor of black queerness? Is it an Americanism?
 
 
Ganesh
22:18 / 26.01.06
(A brief period of befriending Wikipedia later...)

Okay, so it seems "downlow" originated in (and is still predominantly?) African-American slang meaning much the same as the more race-neutral "MSM". The fact that neither term has featured prominently in reviews or discussions of Brokeback Mountain suggests to me that 'what if Jack and Ennis were black?' might be something of a straw man in terms of the way the depiction of male-male love has been received.
 
 
*
05:07 / 27.01.06
Okay, I see. In American popular media right now, there is a great deal of attention given to how black men who are married and who secretly have sex with men are supposedly causing widespread infection of black women with HIV and other "gay diseases." There's a stereotype that black men who are attracted to other men must be "on the downlow." This is judged to be deceitful and irresponsible. In addition, I've heard white queer people judge it as a cowardly reaction to the problem of "black homophobia."

"Downlow" differs from MSM in that (at least in some circles) it tends to refer specifically to men who are married to women having sex with men in secret. As I understand it, MSM disregards marital status. It is predominantly used in African American culture. This has led to it being viewed as (exclusively) an African American problem. The author uses BBM as an example to show that the downlow does in fact exist among white men, although the term may not be used, and that it is viewed differently by movie audiences. I agree with the author that racial stereotypes are at play in this regard, on which more in another thread in the future.

Sorry to have embarked on this tangent with inadequate preparation. I guess the thrust of my argument needed a little more than some spit and a handshake.
 
 
Ganesh
06:28 / 27.01.06
"Downlow" differs from MSM in that (at least in some circles) it tends to refer specifically to men who are married to women having sex with men in secret. As I understand it, MSM disregards marital status.

"MSM" also implies marriage (not sure, but I thi-i-ink the term was originally coined to describe men who 'cottaged' in public toilets before driving home to wives and children), although I suppose the idea of deception is more explicitly expressed in "down-low".

Now you've clarified use of the term, I can understand the general argument. I'm not sure it necessarily holds true outside the US, though. I'm completely unaware of any widespread moral panic in the UK regarding the male-male sexual behaviour of black men, specifically - in the white queer community or anywhere else.
 
 
*
13:58 / 27.01.06
Oh well, that's us being bastards again, I guess. Thanks for the thoughts.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
14:52 / 27.01.06
I'm afraid I can't see the title of this thread without wanting to naughtily rearrange it (as young tykes used to with cinema film title displays) into:

The Cowboy Who Came Up A Gay Man and Went Down on a Mountain

I'm sorry. I just had to tell someone. The priest is coming round to beat the devil out of me tonight.
 
 
Aertho
15:05 / 27.01.06
Brokeback Altar is the sequel. And WP just spoiled the ending.
 
 
Ganesh
17:03 / 27.01.06
Oh well, that's us being bastards again, I guess.

There's plenty of dodgy stereotyping of blackness amongst white British queers - just not the "downlow" thing, really.
 
 
Ganesh
01:38 / 29.01.06
Okay, 'tis neither big nor clever but I couldn't resist posting this little taster/reminder of one of my favourite moments in the film. Not exactly spoilertastic.



*goes slightly melty all over again*
 
 
Mourne Kransky
14:06 / 17.02.06
Still welling up whenever I see Ennis hug Jack's shirt in the tv trailer.

Willie Nelson too has been affected by the film, or by the bandwagon rolling alongside it. He has released a big gay cowboy song called Cowboys Are Frequently, Secretly (Fond of Each Other). Haven't heard it.

And Will & Grace, icons of sanitised, middle class poovery, want in on the action too.
 
 
Aertho
14:19 / 17.02.06
Cowboys Are Frequently, Secretly (Fond of Each Other)

STMTCG?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
09:33 / 20.02.06
Best Film, Best Director, Best Adapted Screenplay at the BAFTAs. Hooray! Sweet little Jake, seemed highly gratified and quite gobsmacked to win a Best Supporting Actor BAFTA.

At least he didn't feel the need to share with us how "hott" his girlfriend looked from the podium in his thank you speech. I wonder if Philip Seymour Hoffman is straight or gay then? Has anybody picked up any clues along the way? Tch...
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
11:43 / 20.02.06
I feel a bit saddened that Heath will probably get overlooked in favour of Philip Seymour Hoffman for best actor at the Oscars (and wherever else it's happened already).

Everybody knows PSH is a great actor, so sure, he deserves recognition... but with Heath it's something that took everybody by surprise, and it would be sad if that wasn't recognised. Although I realise it kind of has been, anyway. Just not with gold statues and stuff.

I am perhaps merely worried that he hasn't quite got it in him to do anything as good as this again. But I hope so.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:33 / 20.02.06
Entirely of one accord with you, Suedey. Haven't seen Capote, of course, but from the trailers, Hoffman's looks the bigger, more obvious performance. He has the physical mannerisms and the Melanie Griffiths voice to work with. Heath has only a cowboy hat and gives a performance of marvellous economy and heartbreaking subtlety. I'd give him one. An Oscar, I mean.

Really glad about the BAFTA for Jake Gyllenhaal. He does some clever stuff in Brokeback that gets lost in the penumbra of Ledger's performance.
 
 
Ganesh
20:58 / 20.02.06
PSF commented on the hottness of several chix in the audience. Much as I love him, my snarkybutton went ping, and Disco's anguish was audible from the opposite hemisphere.
 
 
*
23:15 / 20.02.06
Actually, word is the song by Willie Nelson was written about two years ago... but the article I saw didn't back this up with any evidence, so I can't be sure.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:06 / 21.02.06
Ganesh's icon there has just rendered me totally unfit for work for the rest of today. Reduced to small puddle of squee/lust (are squee and lust incompatible?).
 
  

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