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The Cowboy Who Went Up A Mountain And Came Down A Gay Man

 
  

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*
17:37 / 17.12.05
Saw this last night. It wasn't up to the hype, I felt. My biggest pet peeve is that the media is talking this up as a Big Gay Movie where the geyers are faithfully portrayed in only the most favorable light. But I really don't see that at all. In fact, if I were a fundie, after recoiling in horror at the one sinful gay sex scene, I could see myself rationalizing the rest of the movie as showing the geyers as sinful, evil men who get what's coming to them. Not really a problem with the film itself, as such, but it impaired my enjoyment somewhat. The rampant misogyny also inhibited me from getting into it as much as I wanted to, although it's probably pretty realistic in terms of time period and culture.

{uncritical eughing, spoilers}
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I wanted more buildup to the sex scene. At least some sexual tension or something. Some indicator that HL's character wouldn't just beat JG's into a pulp instead of fucking him. And spit is just not gonna do it when the top is drunk, inexperienced, and not exactly a fuzzyloveybear to begin with.
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{/uncritical eughing, spoilers}

Haven't read the book yet (disclaimer) but I expect it's better.
 
 
tickspeak
18:31 / 17.12.05
The film is actually shockingly like the story--all the dialogue in the Proulx gets used in the movie. The main difference is that while Proulx was using Western tropes in very specific ways to make a point (her style is incredibly clipped and spare and full of cowboy idioms), the movie eschews westerns quite self-consciously and styles itself mostly after old-school Hollywood romances.

I dug the movie, for the most part, though the middle section between their time on Brokeback and 20 years later was pretty sketchy, and when they did land in the 80s Gyllenhaal looked ridiculous. Ledger pulls off one hell of a performance, though...one that, frankly, I didn't think he had in him. But that sex scene is HOT HOT HOT HOT HOT even if it does only last like 15 seconds.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:01 / 17.12.05
Do they at any point eat pudding round a campfire though, the main characters in this?
 
 
Aertho
21:25 / 17.12.05
My birthday was yesterday. My friends and I had planned to go out to the local homo pub, but when we got there, it was (near) empty.

The theater was sold out. Every ghey in Metro Detroit went to see Brokeback. Hype, I tell you. Hype.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
02:12 / 22.12.05
Saw it opening day with my favorite gay boy. He'd gone ahead and read the short story; I had not.

We both loved it. It was a very powerful piece of work, I thought. I think calling the film "the gay cowboy movie" is a complete misnomer, though. I believe the word "queer" is mentioned once, but for the most part it seemed to be a love story about two men who obviously never expected to fall for each other, but now that they have, there's nothing they can do about it except for the occasional tryst. It's utterly painful to watch them separate, and just as painful to watch them reunite very few months because there can't be a happy ending. No one is going to ride off into the sunset with each other. Gyllenhal's character never suffers the personal turmoil Ledger's character does. He doesn't lose his wife, become divided from his children, and he's the more articulate of the pair! I mean, do you think I'd ever imagine the day when I said the phrase, "I think Heath Ledger's going to get an Oscar nod for this?" I didn't! I believe it's entirely plausible because for all the things he doesn't say in the film are perfectly said by his expressions and reluctance to admit that the one person he does love is someone of his own gender.

And as for the cinematography...well, shit. I've always idealized the West in some grand romantic fashion, but Ang Lee makes me terrified of all that open space. Of all the emptiness that not even love can surpass.

The ending tore at my heart. My friend and I left the theater in a rather somber mood. So I loved it. It was poignant, moving, and best of all, a complete downer.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:46 / 22.12.05
I love the how in the UK 'pudding' refers to a pile of custard with a suety block dumped in it, whereas in the US it may refer to something akin to a Hostess fuit pie. It's the one time when I really want to scream: "Get it right!"

Now back to the film.
 
 
gridley
18:10 / 22.12.05
whereas in the US it may refer to something akin to a Hostess fuit pie.

Nope, puddings in america are just custard. Nothing pie-like about them.
 
 
Lugue
20:18 / 22.12.05
Gotta say I'm rather excited about this. The whole Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal as gay cowboys deal had me, as silly as it may be of me, curious enough, but reading the story really got my hopes up for this - I found the full text online (as hosted, for instance, hyah) and it managed to actually get me to tear up at one point. So, certainly high expectations for the movie on my part.

Though I'm not even sure whether it's premiered over here in Portugal.

Still, I'd like to underline that the original short-story itself is a worth read.
 
 
Aertho
14:17 / 26.12.05
I suppose I ought to save this thread from pudding. Saw this film Christmas Day with my current and I must say it's a hell of a film. Hyped of course, because hawt boys kiss! but I was pleasantly surprised that they got the kissing right.

I have to stop here and agree with id entity's above reservations regarding the initial encounter. All of a sudden JG's on his stomach and taking it like a marine. Not only unbelievable, but it looked near rape. I don't care how many splendours it is: Somebody get a bandaid, STAT.

But then came the furious kissing, and all was made right again.

Michelle Williams, in gay cinema again, played a hell of a role. Anne Hathaway also pulls herself out of Disney long enough to go from desperately hot to ridiculously cold over the course of the film. Loved Anna Faris's cameo, and what seemed to be the indication that in every cowboy marriage lies a man yearning for the furious kissing. Also notable was post-apocalyptic Ma Twist, who can understand just enough to say the right thing to Ennis.

I'd also really like for there to be an Oscar nod to Heath. That alleyway breakdown was killer.
 
 
Tamayyurt
16:17 / 26.12.05
Got to the part late and Kali and Chad pretty much said all I wanted to mention. I'll just say,it was really good.
 
 
CameronStewart
19:28 / 27.12.05
Do you think there's any significance to the fact that Heath Ledger's next film, Casanova (to be released weeks apart from Brokeback Mountain), stars him as an insatiable hetero lover who fucks as many women as possible?
 
 
Mistoffelees
19:39 / 27.12.05
I don´t see a significance. Isn´t this a typical (romance) movie for that actor?

And what about the other actor? Next week his new movie will be released here. He plays a soldier, who is expertly trained, goes to war, and then doesn´t get a chance to fight.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:54 / 01.01.06
Saw it today and I'll stop weeping like a big soppy girlie sometime within the next week. Magnificent piece of work, not least because of two astonishing central performances. Jake is great but I had no idea that Heath Ledger could act like that. So little is expressed in dialogue; so much is told in stares and glances, eyes hidden in the shadow of a hat brim, and more dramatic body language. It was a marvellous short story but Ang Lee has made an epic of it and a heartbreaker too.
 
 
Ganesh
23:47 / 01.01.06
Saw Brokeback Mountain earlier today, and I'm still finding it difficult to articulate my thoughts on the film - not (I hope) because I've fallen into uncritical squeeeing or eughing but because I became caught up entirely in the huge emotional sweep of the thing to the extent that refocussing on the detail and (extremely minor) flaws feels somehow... to do it a disservice.

I honestly can't remember when last a film affected me as powerfully on such a visceral level. Xoc's the same, and I'm wondering to what extent we're reacting as gay men - because Brokeback Mountain didn't seem like a 'gay movie'. It felt more universal than that, a more classic tale of doomed love, albeit love which arguably didn't necessarily need to be doomed - hence the tragedy.

I'd been attempting to avoid as much of the media hype as possible, but I did read Proulx's short story beforehand. I'm glad I did, because it helped me in the early stages: rather than straining to glean plot from Ennis's mumbly monosyllables, I could sit back and let the slowly unfolding story - and particularly the beautiful visuals - wash over me. As Twist coaxes Ennis gradually out of his taciturn carapace, his dialogue becomes clearer. As Xoc says, though, it's the non-verbal stuff which truly dazzles, the glances and glances away, the oblique yet fluent body language in which car mirrors and cigarettes and hatbrims and belt buckles become extensions/expressions of the men's communication. Ennis, in particular, used his stetson as a defence mechanism, from the initial extraordinary silent 'pose-off' onwards.

Since so much was communicated visually, and in terms of the luminous Wyoming scenery itself, I really appreciated Lee's having taken time to unfold his story with languor - so the film's wide-open spaces reflected the achingly (frighteningly) gorgeous emptiness of the mountainside itself. It felt spare but unhurried. To a certain extent I can see Entity's problem with the paucity of explicit foreshadowing of the sex scene in the tent. I do think it's there, though, in the increasing physical and emotional intimacy ('stripping off') between the two men, and implicitly Ennis's talk of a coyote "with balls as big as apples" while rubbing down his own (presumably somewhat swollen) genitalia. There's definite sexual tension; it's just that Jack's so much more emotionally literate (and presumably one Kinsey numeral higher) than Ennis that he successfully manages the situation - avoiding frightening his nervy steer with overt attention - until events can no longer be resisted. When it does finally happen, it is a risk - Jack might get beaten to a pulp - but it's a (drunkenly) calculated risk which will be familiar to many gay men. I can absolutely recognise that inebriated sense of 'how the fuck did we get here?'. I think it works. There's a ring of truth (even to the sudden introduction of Jack's doubtless burnin' ring of fire...).

And yeah, it is close to rape, just as much of the open-air horseplay edges into fisticuffs. Isn't that part of the attraction, though? Like seasons on the mountain itself, Ennis and Jack's physicality is raw, elemental. It's a million miles away from 'gay' in any non-sexual sense.

Would saliva be sufficient lubricant? Possibly, I suppose, depending on the sizes involved. In the short story, there's also allusion to precum, in which case Ennis has either been dozing with a big, dripping stiffy or goes from zero to sixty pretty damn sharpish...

Although much has been made of the hott sex scene, I actually found myself more affected by the urgency and hunger of the 'four years later' moment. For me, that was the film's emotional pivot, and it puzzled me slightly when some of my fellow cinema-goers laughed at Alma's reaction. While Ennis's penchant for anal sex is clearly something of an ongoing pain in the arse (ho ho) for her, witnessing the cowboy clinch is the point at which Alma truly glimpses the lie at the heart of her marriage. Or rather, the impossible compromise.

(Xoc wondered whether the people who tittered at that point cried at the end. Valid question.)

"Rampant misogyny"? Well yes, I guess so, in the sense that, in the context of Ennis and Jack's twenty-year love affair, wives and daughters are (at least notionally) symbols of duty, impediments - and part of Alma's/Lureen's pain is that they're able to recognise that. I thought pretty much all the women were intelligently drawn, and I don't think they were portrayed by Lee himself in a misogynistic way. From Alma Junior to old Ma Twist, they read the situation on at least some level, partly intuited The Problem With Men Like Ennis/Jack - even as they were drawn to the romantic outsider archetype. I agree that, at times, it seemed implicit that every cowboy marriage included a tacit understanding/denial of necessarily discreet man-to-man lust - although Jack's bar scene with the 'rodeo clown' suggests that any such understanding is by no means universal. One mustn't frighten the horses, particularly in Texas.

One might conceivably level a charge of misogyny at the portrayal of Lureen and her increasingly ludicrous hairdos, but I think this is part and parcel of the new What Jack Did scenes (Jack's outfits and hair - particularly his facial hair - also morphs through varying degrees of '70s/'80s dodginess). Her increasing chilliness, particularly in that final, devastating 'phone call, is betrayed by the little sound she makes in her throat when the origin of 'Brokeback Mountain' is revealed. As with the other women, she knows.

*sigh*

It's still weirdly difficult talking about these scenes without twinges of the massive emotional wrench I experienced in the cinema. During the latter part of the film, I found myself holding my breath while tears and snot welled. Ennis's visit to the Twists is almost unbearable. I've never particularly been one to romanticise the iconography of the American West, but in Lee's film I felt I could genuinely appreciate the savage beauty of the open country, and the hardship of those lifestyles which depend upon it.

We left the cinema utterly poleaxed - but neither of us felt unduly manipulated. Heath Ledger, in particular, deserves an Oscar. He's been quoted in the UK gay press as saying that, on viewing the finished article, he was proud of his acting for the very first time - and he's 100% justified in expressing this. Every lead was strong, but his was a shattering, career-defining performance. Outstanding.
 
 
sleazenation
00:38 / 02.01.06
For a film that covered such a span of years, and was so focused on Jack and Ennis's love affair many gaps needed to be there, inviting the audience to fill them. And I'm sure exactly how each individual reader choses to fill those narrative holes adds to the richness of the story, but I did find myself hankering to know more about the wives and how the dealt with the slow and creeping realizations of their husbands'... I'm searching for the right word here, desires and extra-marital relationship(s).

I don't recall it being explicitly stated on what grounds Ennis and his wife were granted their divorce. Likewise the origins of the wife's special relationship with her boss (that eventually turns into something more)... Was the wife unfaithful before the divorce?
 
 
Aertho
00:45 / 02.01.06
Y'know, I was hoping G & X would see the movie asap. Glad you did, guys. Excellent review Nesh.

People actually laughed at Alma? Wow. That's really terrible. My theater was about 50 percent and I can remember our collective gasp of pity and shock. We expected her to find out, but not so soon. I felt all the women portrayed were excellently sympathetic; and there were more of them than men here, really.

G nails the reason I didn't cry. A more classic tale of doomed love, albeit love which arguably didn't necessarily need to be doomed. Jack and Ennis are both Six Feet Under characters: it hurts because you like these people and want them to be better than they are, but ultimately, they're victim to their flaws. Jack is filthily in love and horny and is willing to let go of his family for "happiness with Ennis", while Ennis is scared out of his wits of death by tire iron, even after his relationships with women fall apart completely. Both men are sympathetic and understandable, and it makes me happy to be alive in a time and place where I can avoid their tragedy. I felt sad, yes, but more... affirmed? I felt... proud?

Any Barbestraights seen it yet?
 
 
Aertho
00:47 / 02.01.06
sleaze: liaisons ?
 
 
Ganesh
00:51 / 02.01.06
That's all left unsaid in the short story, Sleaze. There's no suggestion that either wife is unfaithful; in Alma's case, the implication is that she remains viscerally attracted to Ennis but has 'settled' for her boss, Monroe, because he's able to provide the (financial and emotional) stability that Ennis cannot. Lureen and Jack have a more semi-detached relationship. There's a sense with almost all the women in the film (particularly in Ennis's strand) that, on some level, they're aware of stuff going on but have the capacity to ignore/deny it in order to preserve the status quo. Marriage as compromise. In the case of both Lureen and the waitress, they've had to be 'forward' in order to form a relationship with Jack and Ennis respectively. Perhaps they're even unconsciously attracted to the homosexual 'softness' within their men?
 
 
Ganesh
01:10 / 02.01.06
People actually laughed at Alma? Wow. That's really terrible. My theater was about 50 percent and I can remember our collective gasp of pity and shock. We expected her to find out, but not so soon.

To be honest, there was a pretty big gasp in our cinema too - and I suspect the tittering was partly something of a shock OMFG!1! response on the part of the audience.

G nails the reason I didn't cry. A more classic tale of doomed love, albeit love which arguably didn't necessarily need to be doomed. Jack and Ennis are both Six Feet Under characters: it hurts because you like these people and want them to be better than they are, but ultimately, they're victim to their flaws.

Yes. They're true tragic heroes in that sense. They haven't had the breaks of the Six Feet Under gayers, though; they're essentially dirt-poor boys rooted in financially (and, it's perhaps implied, emotionally) deprived circumstances. In the short story, Jack recounts an anecdote concerning his father which is more strongly suggestive of physical abuse, and makes one like Pa Twist even less.

Their upbringings limit them, or Ennis's does, anyway.

Jack is filthily in love and horny and is willing to let go of his family for "happiness with Ennis", while Ennis is scared out of his wits of death by tire iron, even after his relationships with women fall apart completely. Both men are sympathetic and understandable...

As, I think, are pretty much all the women.

I think it's not merely Ennis's fear of getting his brains bashed out that prevents him building a post-divorce life with Jack, but also his verging-on-autistic-spectrum need to play by the rules. Men marry women, have children and provide for them. Although he callously drops everything to go fish with Jack, his personality is such that, in the long term, he can't not abide by the rules and expectations which have been laid down for him by his family and by wider society. The tire iron is cited as his reason for sticking to the hetero rulebook, but I think it's about more than that.

... and it makes me happy to be alive in a time and place where I can avoid their tragedy. I felt sad, yes, but more... affirmed? I felt... proud?

Agreed. I felt all of that. It felt emotionally... big, and I felt proud/affirmed to see an onscreen same-sex love story portrayed as big and beautiful and overwhelming as I know same-sex love to be. At the same time, though, it was absolutely emotionally lacerating.
 
 
Ganesh
12:45 / 02.01.06
"Clearly John Wayne is turning over in his grave"...

(Possibly with a stonking hardon sticking out of his chaps. If only from rigor mortis.)
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
13:21 / 02.01.06
It is also politically correct.

Oh no!

I've been really enjoying this thread, guys. I haven't seen the film yet (because it's not actually out here) but I felt suitably inspired from reading a few articles about it to draw this picture. We can say it's just inspired by the film, seeing as I forgot to make it look like anyone in it. But still.

Looking forward to this.
 
 
Aertho
13:29 / 02.01.06
a pro-Marxist or pro-Communist subtext

I've seen this criticism raised against this film and others. Using this film as an example, what's so damn Commie about it? Anyone?
 
 
Ganesh
13:56 / 02.01.06
Focus on the Family's Plugged In Online website breaks its analysis into helpful segments so we're able to find out, for example, that Brokeback Mountain contains such horrors as "breast nudity", a "disembowelled sheep carcass" and "Jesus' name... abused at least three times". As Entity predicts, it also emphasises the happy side of Ennis's sexual/emotional repression:

"Usually it's a negative thing when people give in to the societal norms around them and give up on their dreams, refuse to step across racial divides, etc. But here, Ennis' reluctance to live with Jack is a good example of how established—biblical—morality within a culture can help people make right decisions. (It isn't a pressure so strong that it keeps him from repeatedly having sex with Jack, though.)"

Phew, that's okay then (repeated sweaty mansex with Jack aside). However, despite having made the "right decisions", Ennis and Jack are still wrong wrong wrong because they're responsible for "the ensuing devastation to wives and marriages when the forbidden fruit is eaten". So. Repression of one's sexuality is a Good Thing but only if taken all the way. Lapses - any lapses - don't simply result in dead sheep, but devastate families. And probably make the Baby Jesus cry. FoF ponders

"One can't help but wonder what their respective lives might have been like had they poured their energy and attention into their wives, families and careers instead of homosexuality."

Silly Ennis. Silly Jack. They need only have tried not being mutants. Why didn't they think of that?

Hilariously, in Other Negative Elements, FoF warns that

"A tangential downside to the film is that it could have the effect of making wives suspicious of husbands who have good male friends. After watching this movie, old-fashioned male bonding exercises such as fishing, hunting and camping feel like nothing more than weak excuses for nefarious "hook ups.""

Housewives! Lock up your husbands!
 
 
Ganesh
00:02 / 03.01.06
This is fascinating: the more I read about the response of US right-wing religious groups to Brokeback Mountain, the more I start to suspect its ambiguous 'message' may turn out to be a strength rather than a weakness. The fact that it can (with only a little twisty effort) be interpreted as supportive of a conservative 'wages of sin' worldview makes it more difficult for the film to be blanket-boycotted or dismissed as simple Gay Propaganda. Test-screenings suggest Brokeback Mountain is doing surprisingly well in 'red' states and, weirdly, the online buzz reminds me of nothing so much as the word-of-mouth which preceded The Passion of the Christ. Both arrived atop a head of religious controversy, both were said to be celluloid 'firsts'. The Passion became must-see cinema - even for those of us who might be considered broadly unsympathetic to its subject matter - and I strongly suspect Brokeback Mountain will similarly snowball (although I'd be surprised if the online chatter translates as directly into bums on seats).

As recounted by a furiously ginger fatbeard (who may well be related to Yosemite Sam) here, no lesser an individual than the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' director of Film and Broadcasting stirred up a hornet's nest when he gave it "a gushing review with slight caveats thrown in as sops to those who would find the film objectionable", and was apparently forced to revise his original 'L' rating to something more reflective of the film's degree of 'moral offensiveness'.

This is being viewed variously as evidence of Brokeback Mountain's insidious moral dangerousness and/or the lily-livered corruption at the heart of the USCCB.

Interestingly (to me, anyway), the Passion of the Christ parallels are being explored by several of the film's detractors (who, again, make the point that not only have they no intention of actually seeing Brokeback Mountain but they plan to gouge their eyes out lest they accidentally glimpse its BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS foul immorality). Some comparisons are inevitably more erudite than others but there's a definite strand which identifies Lee's film as a sort of unholy HomoLiberal Hollywood Alliance Passion of the Secularist.

I'm intrigued to see how this develops...
 
 
Henningjohnathan
17:41 / 03.01.06
I really enjoyed the film, but in my opinion, it just takes one step beyond the relationship between John Wayne and Montgomery Clift in RED RIVER. One of the central themes of many (if not most) westerns is that the relationships between the men (often even when they are enemies) are stronger than their relationships with women. Same with gangster movies and buddy action flicks for that matter.

In truth, I think this movie is a bit overhyped as a "breakthrough" in the way homosexuals are perceived. In America at least, the "problem" with homosexuality is not that men have sex with men. Instead, what is more "offensive" and "intolerable" is that men would express any sort of feminine behavior. There are numerous scenes in BROKEBACK that seem designed to emphasize the characters' extreme masculinity (Ennis easily beats up a pair of bikers, Jack rides rodeo and has sex with a beautiful woman, Ennis attracts attractive women). The film does not cross the line into "unacceptable" homosexuality: feminine behavior in men. It's okay for Jack and Ennis to have sex as long as they don't act like sissies. I'd say that TOOTSIE was more revolutionary and challenging to gender expectations.

However, what does come across in BROKEBACK is that the labels we use - homosexual, gay, straight - are quite irrelevant for the most part. They don't really tell you anything about a specific relationship or the nature of love.
 
 
sleazenation
18:13 / 03.01.06
I have heard Brokeback being referred to as a gay Brief Encounter... which I found interesting... then I remembered that Brief Encounter was actually written by a gay man, which leads me to ask to probably irrelevant question, does anyone know anything of E. Annie Proulx's sexuality?
 
 
Aertho
18:25 / 03.01.06
more revolutionary and challenging to gender expectations.

See furious kissing above.

Acceptable vs. Unacceptable homosex is STILL Teh Homosex to a great many people.

While the points you raise on cultured genders are valid, I would suggest that Brokeback broke through the idea that gay = passive. These guys might be queer for each other, but they ain't "faggots". Not many in the majority can percieve a love affair that can be as aggressively intense as between two men who are repressed to the point of explosion. Hence the sex scene to be a kind of rape scene, I guess.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
19:44 / 03.01.06
That is sort of my point, too. The drag queens and effiminate gay men who fought police at Stonewall were far from passive. The idea that "flaming queers" aren't "real men" or are cowards and sissies is the negative perception of homosexuality that would be much more difficult to challenge. Like you say, Jack and Ennis are more acceptable because they aren't "faggots," but, really, it's the perception of femininity in men as a weakness deserving contempt that is more central to the struggles most gay men face in today's society.
 
 
Cherielabombe
19:45 / 03.01.06
I saw it this weekend and have found that this is the type of movie I keep coming back to after I've seen it. I get the feeling that I haven't fully digested it yet; I keep going back to various scenes and quotes and wondering about them. I sense I will need to see it quite a few more times before I'm satisfied (ho ho).

Ganesh I can't remember if I laughed or not when Alma saw Jack and Ennis but if I did it was purely out of an "Omigod what's gonna happen now??!?" sort of reaction. I suspect that's why many laughed.

One thing that struck me about this film was the rigidity of the gender roles in that time/culture and how that caused a great deal of pain for both the men and the women in that film. As a straight I left the film feeling keenly aware of a depiction in this film of the pain of being in love in a time and a place in which you were unable to freely express this. Yet I also felt maybe white heteronormative guilt that caused me to distrust my feelings ie I will never actually know "what it's like." I still had great sympathy for the characters.

And I think it's interesting that one of the things the american right wing press is saying about this film is that it is a 'propaganda' film. This is surely because it IS on many levels a universal love story - and I don't know how someone who is against 'gay marriage' can watch this and not at least question their stance (though I doubt very highly they would change their beliefs).

I absolutely loved it, by the way.
 
 
Ganesh
11:39 / 04.01.06
I really enjoyed the film, but in my opinion, it just takes one step beyond the relationship between John Wayne and Montgomery Clift in RED RIVER. One of the central themes of many (if not most) westerns is that the relationships between the men (often even when they are enemies) are stronger than their relationships with women. Same with gangster movies and buddy action flicks for that matter.

Well sure, I don't think anyone would claim otherwise. There's something of an expanse contained in the word "just" in your first sentence, though, isn't there? "Just" making explicit what has previously remained implicit is, for many, the difference between homosocial and homosexual ie. it's a big deal.

In truth, I think this movie is a bit overhyped as a "breakthrough" in the way homosexuals are perceived.

I disagree. I think it is a breakthrough, but possibly for different reasons. I think it's a breakthrough because it depicts an intense, enduring same-sex love affair without recourse to comedic parody, polemic or pisstaking. Hollywood doesn't do that very often. I don't think it sets out to alter "the way homosexuals are perceived" - one could debate whether or not Ennis and Jack are "homosexuals" at all - but I think it might conceivably do so as an incidental effect of having told an emotionally compelling big love story between two men, and make it clear that there's a sexual element to that male-male love.

In America at least, the "problem" with homosexuality is not that men have sex with men.

Really? From what I can gather, the American religious right appears to have precisely this problem with homosexuality. Moreover, the extreme wing of the spectrum seems to have a problem with men even thinking about having sex with men ('lustful thoughts'). And married men having sex with men appears to be a particular biggie.

Instead, what is more "offensive" and "intolerable" is that men would express any sort of feminine behavior. There are numerous scenes in BROKEBACK that seem designed to emphasize the characters' extreme masculinity (Ennis easily beats up a pair of bikers, Jack rides rodeo and has sex with a beautiful woman, Ennis attracts attractive women). The film does not cross the line into "unacceptable" homosexuality: feminine behavior in men. It's okay for Jack and Ennis to have sex as long as they don't act like sissies.

I'm not sure I agree. I don't think Ennis and Jack are being presented in a particularly way for fear of appearing camp; I think they're being presented to us as reasonably faithful depictions of men from a particular place, time and background who have, essentially, no immediately accessible cultural frame of reference within which to place the idea of 'gay', much less identify as such. They're not 'gay' or even 'homosexual' so much as MSM, Men Who Have Sex With Men - hence my previous reference to Kinsey rating scales. It's perfectly understandable for gay groups to wish to claim them, but this rather sets up a series of straw men.

Your argument also brings us into the sphere of having to attempt to define what's masculine and what's feminine behaviour. Paying attention to one's grooming? Presenting oneself as an object of sexual desire (posing)? Flirting? Being fucked up the arse?

I'd say that TOOTSIE was more revolutionary and challenging to gender expectations.

Sure. Tootsie being a comedy, however, it was possible to laugh most of it off as a JOKE!!1! or as a reflection of Hoffman's character's desperation to find work. The comparison might be more apposite if Tootsie had featured a biological male who presented as female for reasons other than (within the story) career-related or (as a function of the format) for comic purposes.

However, what does come across in BROKEBACK is that the labels we use - homosexual, gay, straight - are quite irrelevant for the most part. They don't really tell you anything about a specific relationship or the nature of love.

I agree with you on the inadequacy/irrelevance of labels - and I think this is one reason those with a stake in claiming Ennis and Jack under a particular banner are finding Brokeback Mountain unsatisfactory.
 
 
Ganesh
11:51 / 04.01.06
I have heard Brokeback being referred to as a gay Brief Encounter... which I found interesting... then I remembered that Brief Encounter was actually written by a gay man, which leads me to ask to probably irrelevant question, does anyone know anything of E. Annie Proulx's sexuality?

According to the bio on her website, she's been married twice, and has three kids. Which doesn't necessarily tell you that she "ain't a queer", if that's the speculation.

Brokeback Mountain reminded me of Brief Encounter but also Todd Haynes' Far From Heaven (as you said at the time, though, Sleaze, that film's suggestion that 'being gay or black is hard but being a woman is hardest of all' didn't necessarily hold true here).

It also reminded me of LP Hartley's The Go-Between. There too, a young man discovers sex and sexuality in idyllic surroundings during one golden summer - but the experience is sufficiently 'traumatic' to render him subsequently incapable of giving or accepting love.
 
 
sleazenation
12:04 / 04.01.06
According to the bio on her website, she's been married twice, and has three kids. Which doesn't necessarily tell you that she "ain't a queer", if that's the speculation.

I was more thinking along the lines of Brief Encounter being an iconic film about love involving a het pairing was written by a gay man and this iconic film about love involving a not het pairing being written by a (we assume) straight woman.

But yeah I'm not quite sure if there is any significance in that.
 
 
Ganesh
12:07 / 04.01.06
That is sort of my point, too. The drag queens and effiminate gay men who fought police at Stonewall were far from passive. The idea that "flaming queers" aren't "real men" or are cowards and sissies is the negative perception of homosexuality that would be much more difficult to challenge. Like you say, Jack and Ennis are more acceptable because they aren't "faggots," but, really, it's the perception of femininity in men as a weakness deserving contempt that is more central to the struggles most gay men face in today's society.

If Brokeback Mountain had been aiming to characterise/challenge "the struggles most gay men face in today's society", then, it would surely have failed. That would be a different film, however.

Lee's film wasn't about the struggles of contemporary gay-identifying males. It was about two males in a particular time and place - and with backgrounds which limited their prospects and expectations in all sorts of ways - finding themselves in love with one another. I don't think it was about the gay identity at all, unless it was about the (practical, psychological, conceptual) difficulties such men might have in establishing an openly 'gay relationship'.

I'm also aware that, while it's fine for me, as a middle-class metropolitan gay man living in a re-e-easonably tolerant time, place and culture to be dismissive of those men who have sex with men but don't consider themselves gay and scorn 'sissiness', it may not be particularly fair. Plenty of men like Ennis and Jack exist even now, so in 1960s Wyoming, I expect they'd be a dime a dozen. Brokeback Mountain's about those men and their problems.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
17:35 / 04.01.06
Yes, it would have been a different movie and I don't think that we'll see a movie that really addresses the challenges of gender perception that will be embraced by mainstream America, unless it's a comedy. I doubt we'll see a BEAUTIFUL BOXER remake with a crossdressing welterweight in Madison Square Garden.

I liked BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN and identified with the characters. I wonder if there is a higher percentage of masculine gay men in what are perceived as masculine endeavors (herding, fishing, the military) than in other sectors of society since, naturally, you'd expect men who are attracted to "manliness" to go where the "real men" are.

BUT my point really is that these characters, like Poitier's "Prentice" in GUESS WHO'S COMING TO DINNER, seem to me to have been consciously designed to be as inoffensive as possible to a mainstream (in this case, straight rather than white) audience. I think that Lee and the producers were very aware that in spite of whatever function scenes such as Ennis fighting the bikers, shooting the moose, Jack riding rodeo or having sex with the prettiest girl in town (and so on) served in the story, their primary effect was to reinforce the extreme masculinity of these characters to "balance out" their homosexuality.

It's pretty much a "forbidden love" story and it's interesting to compare it to "Far From Heaven" which presented homosexuality in an intentionally negative and depraved light in contrast to the wholesome but forbidden love between Moore and Haysburg.
 
 
Ganesh
21:48 / 04.01.06
I think that Lee and the producers were very aware that in spite of whatever function scenes such as Ennis fighting the bikers, shooting the moose, Jack riding rodeo or having sex with the prettiest girl in town (and so on) served in the story, their primary effect was to reinforce the extreme masculinity of these characters to "balance out" their homosexuality.

I might agree with this if I hadn't read Proulx's short story, upon which Brokeback Mountain is very, very faithfully based. I think Lee's aim was to create the same effect as that story (or a visual equivalent thereof), which meant preserving Proulx's depiction of working class men who've had no exposure to any sort of socially viable 'gay' scene/identity and, for a host of reasons, a vested interest in appearing 'masculine' - or, at least 'not queer'. That's how those characters are.

I think the point of Ennis's fight-picking was to exemplify the problem with using repression as a coping mechanism for dealing with his sexuality (very similar to the dynamics of homophobia). I'm not sure to what extent shooting the moose (Ennis could aim; Jack couldn't) and riding rodeo (Jack was mediocre at it) reflected hypermasculinity rather than simply the cowboy lifestyle. Sex with the prettiest girl in town? Well, I think those relationships were interesting: we don't know how Alma and Ennis met, but both Lureen and the waitress ended had to take the initiative (stereotypically the 'masculine' role) in courtship. Arguably, it was the gentleness/passivity that attracted them to Jack and Ennis in the first place.
 
  

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