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The Cowboy Who Went Up A Mountain And Came Down A Gay Man

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:39 / 21.02.06
The shirt that Ennis del Mar "leaves on the mountain" has been auctioned fror $101,100 on eBay.

Wish I were rich.

So the seller writed...
 
 
ibis the being
15:37 / 02.03.06
Saw this a couple of weeks ago and loved it. The effect was cumulative for me. By the end I was really overwhelmed with the intensity of emotion in it. Heath Ledger was amazing, and I don't think the film would have been nearly as good with a lesser actor or performance in that role.

There was a spurt of nervous laughter during the reunion/Alma scene in our theater. (No idea of the makeup of the audience, but it was young and downtown Boston Massachusetts, not exactly an anti-gay haven). I felt surprise at hearing laughter, but almost in the same moment I felt a similar urge to giggle - I think it was just a nervous release. You identify so closely with Ennis even that early in the film, and you (or at least I) are so not expecting him to get 'caught' so soon.

Shalit's comments are absurd, although in an odd way I see where he's coming from. I would never call Jack a sexual predator, but I did feel resentment toward his character - again, because Ennis is so sympathetic, at a purely emotional level I found myself "blaming" Jack for his downfall, and judging him for not being more sensitive to Ennis's suffering.

Anne Hathaway also pulls herself out of Disney long enough to go from desperately hot to ridiculously cold

Curious what was meant by this (back on p1). Did you find her cold in the phone call with Ennis? Or are you saying that overall her character was cold?

Also, I'd like to hear more about where id entity found the film misogynistic. I didn't pick up on it, and as much as I don't want to not like this film, I'm wondering what I might have missed.

Incidentally, I saw Capote this past weekend. I didn't think Hoffman's performance touched Ledger's. Hoffman's performance struck me as little more than adroit mimicry, with none of the depth or nuance of Ledger's.
 
 
Aertho
17:36 / 02.03.06
Curious what was meant by this (back on p1). Did you find her cold in the phone call with Ennis? Or are you saying that overall her character was cold?

I think you read it perfect. Anne practically rapes Jack in the backseat of that car. Not only do I find sexually aggressive women attractive, but, yes, her character was very hotblooded. Which changed drastically as she aged into her father's daughter. She was icily cryptic and seething during Ennis's call.
 
 
ibis the being
17:52 / 02.03.06
Ah. I thought it was more ambiguous than that. Maybe I'm remembering it more, but I perceived at least a hint of the possibility of irony in her tone, as if she were bitter over having to tell an obvious lie about the way her husband died. Despite the shock of finding out her husband was homosexual (as I assume she did), nevertheless she had to feel angry toward the men who so brutally killed him... and maybe resentful or bitter over having to participate in the 'official story' of his death. I'm not saying that was clearly there, but it seemed to be a possibility and again overall I thought it was deliberately ambiguous.

I also thought she showed compassion for Ennis in telling him where to find Jack's parents, which, after all, she was under no obligation to do.
 
 
ibis the being
17:53 / 02.03.06
Sorry, I meant "maybe I'm remembering it wrong." (Note to self: proofread.)
 
 
Aertho
17:56 / 02.03.06
I suppose that's true. I remember hating the woman, but the way you describe her now, I now feel overeactive. There are layers I wasn't acknowledging. That's true she was under no obligation to divulge the whereabouts of Jack's parents. I'll see it again.
 
 
Ganesh
18:24 / 02.03.06
I didn't hate Lureen at all, and I don't consider her as icy either in that last scene; I think the swallow-in-the-throat strangled noise she makes belies any calculated coldness. I think she's realised her husband's predilections (either before or after his death, unconscious flipping into conscious) and is hurt by the implications (he didn't love her as much as he loved another) - and possibly bitter. I don't think she's uncaring or callous, though, and I honestly felt for her in that scene.
 
 
Lama glama
14:07 / 03.03.06
Lureen's response to Ennis seemed to be precise and worded meticulously. It's as if she had been waiting for the call for sometime and had practised saying the words over and over. However, when she actually spoke to Ennis, it seemed to be a little too much for her and the obvious restraint that she showed only heightened my emotional response to the scene. Because she was trying so hard to resist being angry at Ennis, or overcome by grief about Jack.

I can honestly say, that the reason I got teary during that scene was because of the intense close-up of Lureen's face and witnessing the emotionin bubbling away underneath. Hathaway gave an excellent performance throughout the movie and it's a shame that she isn't nominated for anything.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:10 / 11.03.06
So, I resisted seeing BM in the first month it screened, because I can get a bit resistant to 'pressure' when eVERYONE says a movie is amazing, wonderful, breakthrough etc. I was really underwhelmed, and so was my partner. Neither of us connected with the film, emotionally, and I suspect this may be because neither of us connected with Ledger, emotionally. It wasn't that his acting was bad, he just.... Well, actually, apart from being closeted and queer, his character was kind of an asshole. I found Jake Gyllenhaal much more sympathetic and open, as a character to identify with, but we weren't 'allowed' to identify with him, he was the lost love object.

Did people really think the sex scene was hot? My partner said she thought the film lacked a 'gay male gaze' -- by which she meant the shots didn't sexualise Jack's or Ennis' bodies at all, didn't linger on them, didn't track them to allow the audience to relate to them as sexualised. (This wasn't the case for the female characters.) In a way, it was like watching men fuck via the eye of a straight person. Almost like Ang Lee went back in the closet especially for the film. Eric Bana's body was sexualised more in Hulk. Why?

(In case anyone is wondering why Mr Disco and his female partner are so opinionated about gay male gazes, in past lives we were both dykes, so we feel like we can say these things without coming off as stupid straight folks. I'm not sure why I feel the need to say this, here, and it bothers me a bit.)

What bothered me most was the isolation of the main characters -- from any kind of 'queer' or homo cultural spaces, but also from the other characters, their wives, their kids, the people around them. No-one except Jack and Ennis ever have any kind of conversation about queerness that isn't either hostile/homophobic or betrayed. This means that the other characters -- particularly the women -- are almost presented as homophobic by default. They're figured as the incomprehending obstacles to love having its way. And I guess I don't really agree that the women in the film are presented as understanding or condoning anything. So the heroism of just 'pushing through', necessarily closeted, 'hostage to fate' in the way Ennis talks about it (and their heroism as sympathetic characters) depends largely on that isolation and separation between the queer bubbleof Ennis and Jack, and the outside straight world. Life isn't like that. Indeed, we don't get to know the rest of the characters, what they're thinking, what they're feeling. We see them mostly through Ennis' and Jack's eyes, apart from Alma, who doen't do anything but cry ineffectually. And Ennis, at least, doesn't even change throughout the film. He's not trandsformed, dramatically, he doesn't go on a journey. He gets old and drinks more. Where was the suspense, the tension, the drama, all the elements of good film-making?

I really like Proulx's story, and I think as a short story it works, but as a film, and a period piece at that, Brokeback Mountain is kind of decontextualised. Somewhere else in the USA during the 60's, Gay Liberation was happening, the Stonewall riots were happening, and men, possibly even cowboys, were loving each other in states like Wyoming and Texas. There were bars you could go to, if you found out where and on what night and who to pay. Where is that in the film, given that some of the plot depends on it? How does Jack Twist know to go to Mexico to buy sex, and how does Ennis Del Mar know about it too?

I don't get why people are saying this is a breakthrough film. Apart from that it's a Hollywood production, which means what? It was okay. Hollywood has produced queerer films. It proves to me that gayness is no longer enough, as a plot feature, to transport me, and that seems a sign of where culture is at (or perhaps just my small corner of it) -- the bar is now raised. To impress me and win my heart, queer films have to make deeper comment than individualistic narratives about failed love affairs.
 
 
Ganesh
14:52 / 11.03.06
Neither of us connected with the film, emotionally, and I suspect this may be because neither of us connected with Ledger, emotionally. It wasn't that his acting was bad, he just.... Well, actually, apart from being closeted and queer, his character was kind of an asshole. I found Jake Gyllenhaal much more sympathetic and open, as a character to identify with, but we weren't 'allowed' to identify with him, he was the lost love object.

I don't think Lee set out to consciously allow or disallow identification with this or that character. You identified with who you identified with. I could readily identify with both leads and those around them. I can see the "kind of an asshole" thing, particularly if one takes the viewpoint that yes, he could transcend his upbringing, personality and social circumstances - and settle down with someone. I read it more as Ennis being unable to do these things, making him a tragic figure rather than simply an arse.

Jack's much more contemporary 'queer' in the sense of being able to at least conceive of a happy life with a male partner. That makes him more sympathetic.

Did people really think the sex scene was hot? My partner said she thought the film lacked a 'gay male gaze' -- by which she meant the shots didn't sexualise Jack's or Ennis' bodies at all, didn't linger on them, didn't track them to allow the audience to relate to them as sexualised. (This wasn't the case for the female characters.) In a way, it was like watching men fuck via the eye of a straight person. Almost like Ang Lee went back in the closet especially for the film. Eric Bana's body was sexualised more in Hulk. Why?

I suspect because he was trying to remain faithful to the novel, which doesn't dwell on male bodies either. I think the aim of the film was not to present us with "hot" male bodies or a gay male gaze, but to concentrate on the smaller, more subtle homoerotic details. I don't see it as Lee going "back in the closet" at all, more as Lee attempting to pull back and allow the camera to be relatively neutral (in terms of 'gaze'). That and focussing on the growing intimacy and passion between Ennis and Jack rather than the 'hott body' stuff.

I agree that female bodies were treated slightly differently - in that we saw a lot more of bedroom scenes, exposed breasts, etc. One could probably argue, however, that the extended near-reverie on Brokeback Mountain, with its glances and smiles and opening-out was the mens' equivalent of those bedroom scenes, initially sublimated/diffused, latterly more explicit.

Depends on one's expectations, I suppose, and what one finds "hot". For me, the homoerotic 'sideways glance' stuff is much more sexy than 'conventional' clothes-off skin-flick fare, so this particular gay male had much to gaze upon. It wasn't a 'sexy' film, though, overall; it aimed much more for emotional engagement and, with me, succeeded.

What bothered me most was the isolation of the main characters -- from any kind of 'queer' or homo cultural spaces, but also from the other characters, their wives, their kids, the people around them. No-one except Jack and Ennis ever have any kind of conversation about queerness that isn't either hostile/homophobic or betrayed.

Isn't this sort of the entire point? Or one of the central points: that Jack and Ennis, by dint of time, place and upbringing, lack the resources - even linguistically, and in Ennis's case, psychologically - to begin to build any sort of "homo cultural space". It isn't there, and they can't make it. Jack would try, but Ennis can't make the conceptual leap.

This means that the other characters -- particularly the women -- are almost presented as homophobic by default. They're figured as the incomprehending obstacles to love having its way.

They're presented as obstacles, certainly, merely by existing. I don't see this as mapping automatically onto "homophobic by default", unless you mean 'phobic' in the sense of feeling afraid of losing a partner or bitter/sad about having lost a partner to something they haven't encountered, know little about and don't understand.

And I guess I don't really agree that the women in the film are presented as understanding or condoning anything.

You don't think Ma Twist tacitly understands Ennis's distress in that final scene?

So the heroism of just 'pushing through', necessarily closeted, 'hostage to fate' in the way Ennis talks about it (and their heroism as sympathetic characters) depends largely on that isolation and separation between the queer bubbleof Ennis and Jack, and the outside straight world. Life isn't like that.

I'm sorry, but that's bollocks. Life is like that, or at least can be like that. I've never grown up working class in 1960s Wyoming (and neither have you), but I've grown up in 1970s small town Scotland - and there a load I can relate to in terms of feeling utterly isolated, separate from the rest of 'normal' masculinity, knowing little or nothing about 'queerness' and being terrified of the label and what it might mean for me and my life.

For many, life was - and possibly still is - like that.

Indeed, we don't get to know the rest of the characters, what they're thinking, what they're feeling. We see them mostly through Ennis' and Jack's eyes, apart from Alma, who doen't do anything but cry ineffectually.

That's an oversimplification. We don't get to know the other characters fully, no, because they're secondary to the relationship at the centre of the story and thus relevant only inasmuch as they influence and are influenced by that relationship. This doesn't mean we see them only through the prism of Jack and Ennis, however. We're given glimpses of Lureen's mixed feelings about the abrasive relationship between her father and husband - and, in the final 'phone call, we see her distress at the realisation that Ennis meant more to Jack than she did (we very literally don't see this through either man's eyes). We're shown Alma's relationship with her sympathetic male boss, and left to wonder whether her subsequent marriage to him is a compromise. We see Ennis's daughter as an independent young woman who loves her father but expects little or nothing from him. Heart-breakingly, we see Ma Twist's wordless emotional intelligence, and speculate on her life with Jack's father, and the compromises she's made.

We're not shown a huge amount explicitly about each of these characters - because they're secondary characters - but they're nonetheless rounded enough to be more than simple ciphers or mirrors of Jack and Ennis. They're absolutely not uniformly "homophobic by default"; every secondary character differs in the extent and degree to which they accept (or don't accept) that their partners/fathers/sons are not the same as other men.

And Ennis, at least, doesn't even change throughout the film. He's not trandsformed, dramatically, he doesn't go on a journey. He gets old and drinks more. Where was the suspense, the tension, the drama, all the elements of good film-making?

Again, the fact that Ennis doesn't change is central to the story's tragedy. He can't change; it's his flaw, a flaw which leads to his hardening and the unravelling of those around him. There's a brief window in his life when he's free of context, of the things that chain and drag him down - but it's insufficient to make him change forever. It's a tragedy. Ask Shakespeare.

One could certainly argue that Brokeback Mountain lacks suspense in an OMG!1 edge-of-seat kind of way; one is invested, to an extent, in the men's dilemma and how/if they might resolve it - and I think it's 'suspenseful' in the sense of wondering what's going to happen next. Tension? I think there's erotic tension aplenty, particularly in the extended sequence of unfolding leading up to Jack and Ennis making the implicit explicit (this gay's gaze, again). Drama? I found it emotionally dramatic in the extreme.

So... I don't really agree at all with your suggestion that it's not "good film making". If you remained completely unengaged emotionally, then I suppose you'd see it all very differently, though.

I really like Proulx's story, and I think as a short story it works, but as a film, and a period piece at that, Brokeback Mountain is kind of decontextualised. Somewhere else in the USA during the 60's, Gay Liberation was happening, the Stonewall riots were happening, and men, possibly even cowboys, were loving each other in states like Wyoming and Texas. There were bars you could go to, if you found out where and on what night and who to pay.

This is a variant on the 'well, why didn't they just move to San Francisco' argument. In my opinion, it misses the point. Whether or not "Gay Liberation" is just around the corner is irrelevant - to Ennis, certainly, who doesn't identify as gay, and possibly to Jack, who, if he weren't specifically in love with Ennis might or might not identify as gay. Neither man has embraced a gay or queer identity. We could doubtless spend a while speculating as to why this is the case, but it's not simply because they don't know which night Kylie's playing the O K Corral.

Where is that in the film, given that some of the plot depends on it? How does Jack Twist know to go to Mexico to buy sex, and how does Ennis Del Mar know about it too?

Presumably it's well-known that one can get whatever one wants, sexually, over the border. For Jack, Mexico's a sort of bastardised form of Brokeback Mountain in that it's a place where he can forget his social ties and have sex with men. We don't know Jack's sexual history but, as I mentioned upthread, there's the suggestion that he's both 'gayer' (in terms of good ol' Kinsey) and more sexually experienced than Ennis. It's perfectly plausible that the subject of Mexican prostitution - of all sorts - has come up in his conversations. As a kid, I was aware that this or that place was where the queers hung out, even though I'd never encountered one. It was playground lore.

And Ennis, while emotionally crippled is not unperceptive, particularly when it comes to Jack. Jack keeps suggesting they move to Mexico, and it doesn't take a huge amount of speculation on his part to hypothesise why. It's not unlikely that Jack has talked to him about how certain things are more accepted in Mexico.

I don't get why people are saying this is a breakthrough film. Apart from that it's a Hollywood production, which means what? It was okay. Hollywood has produced queerer films.

I'm not sure about "breakthrough", but Brokeback Mountain is a bit of a first in at least some ways. It's not 'queer', no, but I don't think it set out to be - certainly not The Queerest Hollywood Film Evar. It set out to tell a love story in which the lovers were male, and their relationship was not played for laughs. It succeeded. It used big-name actors, who've become bigger-name actors as a result of the film, and far from being marginalised, it's been all over the mainstream and won a clutch of awards.

It proves to me that gayness is no longer enough, as a plot feature, to transport me, and that seems a sign of where culture is at (or perhaps just my small corner of it) -- the bar is now raised. To impress me and win my heart, queer films have to make deeper comment than individualistic narratives about failed love affairs.

Perhaps it's worth looking at what you expect from a "queer film", and how you'd define one in the first instance. If winning your heart means an affirmative story of how embracing "gayness" changes people for the better and makes them happy happy happy, then I'd agree that Brokeback's not that film (although Queer As Folk might be). If you're after explicit sexiness, then no, it's not "hot" in that sense (although I daresay that's largely a matter of personal preference). If you wanted a film about 'queer issues', then it wasn't that either. I thought it was something of a breakthrough in that it was Hollywood tackling an explicitly sexual long-term loving relationship between two men in a serious, fuss-free manner. That's something we generally don't see very much.

I didn't see it as a "queer film" particularly but a straightforward tale of two rather different men falling in love and trying - ultimately unsuccessfully - to make that love fit with the rest of their lives. Whether that makes it a "failed love affair" is up for grabs. Although it's a love affair which, in the end, devastates both lovers, I'd say otherwise.
 
 
Ganesh
16:19 / 11.03.06
(In case anyone is wondering why Mr Disco and his female partner are so opinionated about gay male gazes, in past lives we were both dykes, so we feel like we can say these things without coming off as stupid straight folks. I'm not sure why I feel the need to say this, here, and it bothers me a bit.)

I agree that you don't come across as "stupid straight folks" and I do think that having been immersed in gay culture and politics might well make you more qualified than unexamined straight people when it comes to commenting on the 'gay male gaze' - but the concept itself is a theoretical one, and there's a limit to its validity/universality. If we're taking it to be a straighforward homosexual equivalent of the 'male gaze', then I think I'd really find the idea a questionable one, at least as it's applied here. If you mean the camera didn't pan lovingly over Ledger and Gyllenhaal's torsos in the style of standard Hollywood hetero sex scenes - or zoom in on unvarnished cock/arse action a la gay porn - then yes, I'd agree. I'd argue, however, that a substantial part of gay male sexuality is attuned to other expressions of the erotic - and that both the gradually evolving flirtation and the sporadic moments of male/male 'horseplay' are equally, if not more reflective of the 'gay male gaze'. We don't all linger on the same things.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:26 / 12.03.06
Fair enough. Maybe let me be more clear about the 'gay male gaze', because I certainly don't mean it as the singular equivalent of a heterosexual 'male gaze'. I'm also sure that there are a multiplicity of possible "gay male gazes" in which different cinematic conventions play ut. But BM seemed to shy away from anything like that... Maybe the horseplay, wrasslin' stuff was the 'sexy' element.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:34 / 12.03.06
You don't think Ma Twist tacitly understands Ennis's distress in that final scene?

That was the one exception!

I experienced growing up queer in a really rural, isolated place too, and to the extent that my first same-sex romances were aided by having lots of space to hide in, I can relate as well. I just don't think it's enough to float my boat, I guess.

What 'queer film' consists of is a terrific and crunchy question, and maybe another thread? I'm on a deadline tonight but I'll start it sometime in the next couple of days.
 
 
Ganesh
12:13 / 12.03.06
I'm also sure that there are a multiplicity of possible "gay male gazes" in which different cinematic conventions play ut. But BM seemed to shy away from anything like that... Maybe the horseplay, wrasslin' stuff was the 'sexy' element.

I don't think Lee sets out at any point to be "sexy" as opposed to homoerotic. What glued my 'gay male gaze' to the screen was the lead up to yer actual in-the-tent penetration - and, as you say, the fooling around stuff afterwards.

It was the four-years-later meeting that really grabbed me, but I'm not sure it was "sexy", particularly. More of a big emotional money shot, I guess.
 
 
Ganesh
12:29 / 12.03.06
That was the one exception!

'Understanding' and 'condoning' probably are overstatements, because they imply a conscious realisation, on the part of the various women, that their men are having male-male sex, and that's okay. I agree that, with the possible exception of old Ma Twist, this probably isn't the case on a conscious level. I think it can be argued, however, that each female in Brokeback Mountain is able to appreciate on a more subliminal level, that Ennis/Jack is different from other men. I think they understand this to different degrees and accept it to different degrees: Alma, obviously, knows enough to be the most aware of what's going on and is hurt and angered by it. Both Lureen and Cassie are, arguably, attracted by the men's passivity (perhaps thinking of it as gentleness or sensitivity rather than ambivalence/reticence) but are eventually disappointed. Ennis's daughter appears to have more of an unspoken understanding of her father; in the exchange with Cassie, she suggests that he's Not The Marrying Kind.

So... I think there's a spectrum of conscious/unconscious understanding among the women, and a spectrum of acceptance of the men's 'difference'. I think it's reductive to group that whole range of responses under the banner "homophobic by default"; it does the subtlety of the individual female characters a great disservice.

I experienced growing up queer in a really rural, isolated place too, and to the extent that my first same-sex romances were aided by having lots of space to hide in, I can relate as well. I just don't think it's enough to float my boat, I guess.

Whether it floats your boat is one thing. I mentioned my own experiences in order to address your claim that "life isn't like that".

What 'queer film' consists of is a terrific and crunchy question, and maybe another thread? I'm on a deadline tonight but I'll start it sometime in the next couple of days.

Go for it!
 
 
alas
19:07 / 14.03.06
I was originally a little ambivalent about the film, too, and I think MD explained my initial reaction pretty well; I also thought that it was surprising that the shots didn't sexualise Jack's or Ennis' bodies at all, didn't linger on them, didn't track them to allow the audience to relate to them as sexualised. (This wasn't the case for the female characters.) In a way, it was like watching men fuck via the eye of a straight person. But Ganesh's reading of it makes me want to take another look....so to speak.

This may be way off base, but I almost wonder if because gay-male porn is so focused on "cock/arse action," as Ganesh says, if Ang Lee didn't have to consciously say: there's no way I can go that direction even slightly and succeed, given the realities of the kind of film I want this to be and the audience I'm aiming at, including gay men, who can just go get real porn if they want real porn and not waste their time with plot...Taking the film to the other extreme in some ways--sublimating the sexuality almost entirely and yet making the one penetration scene so intense, almost violent, and so dark (in terms of the lighting)...trying to estrange it from all the expected conventions to achieve higher intensity.

We went to it with a friend and her quite mature 13-year old daughter, and I only felt her get a little, well, uncomfortable in her seat during the tent sex scene. (I suspect I may be the only barbelither who went to this film with someone under the age of 16?)

But then...I still don't quite get why we then had to see the standard tit shots--they did seem so...predictable? They bugged me in the theatre--I did feel "used" somehow-- and even post Ganesh they're still kind of bugging me. I think that's the one thing that I'm still not sure about. "Couldn't he have done something more interesting in showing us these female bodies?" Is my first question. My second one is, given everything I've read here: "Is there a way to see the film as, in fact, doing something more interesting and I just missed it?" Anybody want to make the case?

My (male) partner (grendal's mother) really loved it. We both grew up in the rural Midwestern US; on finishing the film, my first response was, to Ennis del Ray "I went to high school with him." (It was the 70s/80s, and it wasn't so far west, but it was pretty much the same situation--one guy in particular, not because he is necessarily gay or bi--I have no idea, frankly--but I always sensed that kind of quiet, pent-up energy in him that seemed unpredictable in that way.). The adult woman I went with initially thought of him as kind of just an asshole, but from the start I did read him substantially the way that Ganesh read him--tragically shaped by his world and personality and life and whatever, to respond to everything--every emotion, every person--with a clenched fist.

But when Grendal's Mum talked about the film to several straight male colleagues at work, they made it quite clear that they had no plans to see it, thank you very much can we talk about something else? I am continually surprised at how high other people's thresholds are set. Has anyone else encountered that reaction?
 
 
Aertho
19:48 / 14.03.06
Yup. Both home and at work.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
08:06 / 15.03.06
On the way into work this morning, I was surreptitiously scoping the talent, and occasionally furtive gaze met furtive gaze. It occurred to me that this was an aspect of the "gay male gaze" that Lee, Ledger, Gyllenhaal get right in Brokeback. At several points in the film there is watching the lust object through peripheral vision, affecting lack of interest.

There's the pose off that Ganesh mentions, in the car park outside Randy Quaid's office. Ennis gets naked and washes himself as Jack appears not to watch, just as Proulx describes it. Jack watches Ennis' reflection in his wing mirror. And, throughout, the brim of a Stetson gives a layer of obfuscation.

I remember the shock of going to gay pubs / parties for the first time as a apprentice bender and finding the direct and uninhibited gaze of other men very uncomfortable and unfamiliar. And, even in those environments, much of the eyework is still done surreptitiously, for fear of rejection.

This chimes with what I saw in the film. Not sure if that's exactly what Mr Disco meant by the phrase.
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:52 / 15.03.06
And, even in those environments, much of the eyework is still done surrepticiously, for fear of rejection.

You knoe, straight eyowork is like that too. We're all afraid of refection.

I haven't seen the movie, but not because I have a "high threshold" for the gay thing, it's because I'm soo not in the mood for realistic movies with sad ending (Syriana was already too much, and I missed Crash too)

Anyway, this movie has been discussed so much - in gay environments as well as straight ones - that I feel like I already seen it. It has really shaken people off their seats, so to speak, and that's something. Much like another similar movie from about a decade ago, called - if I remember correctly - "The Priest", which I did see.

Anyway, a bit on the lighter side, here's a 30 seconds summary of Brokeback Mountain with bunnies which ruined the end for me.
http://www.starz.com/features/brokebackmountain/
 
 
ibis the being
17:58 / 15.03.06
But then...I still don't quite get why we then had to see the standard tit shots--they did seem so...predictable? [...] "Couldn't he have done something more interesting in showing us these female bodies?" Is my first question. My second one is, given everything I've read here: "Is there a way to see the film as, in fact, doing something more interesting and I just missed it?" Anybody want to make the case?

Well, when I watched it I felt the "tit shots" were predictable and boring, and - maybe I'm giving Lee too much credit, or reading too much into them - I felt that was intentional. The presentation of the female body, it seemed to me, was attractive in a conventional sense but at the same time bland and profoundly unexciting. I thought we could probably assume this was the way the male characters experienced them?
 
 
Ganesh
18:48 / 15.03.06
Yes, I thought that too. I don't have the time right now to come back and address Alas's (reiteration of Mister Disco's) point properly, but in brief, I also wondered whether the male-female bedroom scenes were intentionally conventional (verging on bland) to emphasise that this is how Ennis and Jack saw them after the clear, vibrant wide-open spaces of male-male sexuality on Brokeback Mountain.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:12 / 15.03.06
Just back from seeing this, so probably jumping in a bit late, as it were, but, were the male-on-female sex scenes really all that prosaic? Granted, the topless shot in the back of the car was a bit Hollywood standard, (though I'd agree that Jack's slight diffidence here was the point,)but was I alone in thinking that Ennis is actually sodomising Alma in their (first?) scene in the marital bed?

Nothing much else to add to what's been said about the film otherwise, except possibly that Gyllenhaal's performance seems to have been a bit underrated - To a certain extent, it's Heath Ledger's film, but Gyllenhaal arguably had the harder role, in terms of having more back-story to convey whenever he's on camera. Jack's perhaps had a less of a journey to go in terms of self-acceptance, but we don't really get to see it, so that fact that it's nevertheless so well put-across is a credit to the guy, I think.

Excellent film anyway, which I probably wouldn't have gone to see at the cinema if I hadn't a)been inspired to do so by reading this thread and b)locked myself out of the house this evening, so, you know, cheers Barbelith.
 
 
*
19:18 / 15.03.06
So does anyone else find this just fucking embarassing?
 
 
Aertho
19:28 / 15.03.06
sodomising Alma

Yes, a fewer of my gold star gayers thought Alma was getting it that way, but I thought it was simply doogystyle(is there a better term for this position?). Vaginal intercourse, without seeing her face. That way, he might imagine Jack. All backs are the same, one could surmise.

I thought it was strange that the boys thought it was rougher, while I just thought it was simply kama sutra sexplay. Which view was more creative? What does it say about the viewer?
 
 
Ganesh
19:29 / 15.03.06
... was I alone in thinking that Ennis is actually sodomising Alma in their (first?) scene in the marital bed?

I'd hope not, because it's pretty clearly signposted as a possible 'clue' to Ennis's inclinations.
 
 
Dead Megatron
20:37 / 15.03.06
Maybe the "doggystyle" (really awful word) is clue enough already. In the minds of conservative Americans, at least.
 
 
Ganesh
21:00 / 15.03.06
Maybe - but considering his enthusiasm to explore Jack's jacksie, I suspect it was more than mere doggystyle.

Perhaps someone could write to Ang Lee for clarification?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:03 / 15.03.06
Or maybe drop a note to Mrs Lee.
 
 
alas
21:42 / 15.03.06
So does anyone else find this just fucking embarassing?

Yep.

I agree that the women's bouncing breast shots (which was my focus--how women's bodies were presented, not the actual sex, which was more complex) were probably functioning as the bland normal...But why does that still kind of bother me? I'm not sure there's any other way he could have done it, but... Something's still niggling at my brain.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:53 / 15.03.06
This is possibly too personally anecdotal to account for any intention of Ang Lee's but I thought Anne Hathaway straddling a passive Jack in the back of her truck very reminiscent of my I'm-straight-honest-I-am attempts wayyyyy back, and therefore the scene made perfect sense to me.

And the point about those breasts was I really liked the girls and could do the stuff and all but when I the unclothed breasts became visible, that was the Rubicon. I was so aware then, suddenly, that I wanted to bat for the other team. The naked breasts were unarguably not part of the rutting-with-Heath-Ledger scenario I had saved to disc in my head.
 
 
Ganesh
22:06 / 15.03.06
See now, that works the other way for me. The thing I miss about sex with women is the lovely lovely breastiness (clearly, Xoc was bottle-fed) - sooo I could see why otherwise sexually equivocal men might be tempted in a nipular direction.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
22:31 / 15.03.06
Fuck me, I'm in bed with Benny Hill. Eek.
 
 
Ganesh
23:17 / 15.03.06
Or maybe drop a note to Mrs Lee.

Indeed. Ana Lee.
 
 
Dead Megatron
02:17 / 16.03.06
See now, that works the other way for me. The thing I miss about sex with women is the lovely lovely breastiness (clearly, Xoc was bottle-fed) - sooo I could see why otherwise sexually equivocal men might be tempted in a nipular direction

Yeah, as I said before, not-watch-movie, but the barebreastiness could really make me lost emotional connection with the character, in a how-can-he-not-be-interested-in-that-kinda way. I know it's not a very mature, or understanding, attitude towards the whole situation, but what can I say? I'm a sucker for the female figure (no pun nor disrespect intended)
 
 
Aertho
02:20 / 16.03.06
You're also Brazilian.
 
  

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