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The Bad Student

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
alas
14:34 / 23.11.05
Unless you're doing some course you hate because of family pressure or something, why are you there?

As someone who teaches in the US system, I have to say I’m pretty much completely of this view. I really hate seeing all the resources of my university so under-utilized by most of the students. We’ll bring in brilliant lecturers who speak to half-capacity crowds of dull-eyed students who are only there if their profs force them to go. We have a wonderful library system that many students studiously resist learning to use. I know that many professors work very hard on making our classes both challenging and at least reasonably engaging, and most at least present some worthwhile material, even if the presentation leaves something to be desired. So this middle-class entitled angst bullshit is pretty wearing.

But for my own part, I have tended, in the past, to place myself in the Ganesh camp, roughly—i.e., should’ve had more sex, especially, and should’ve (although I’m not sure if, financially, I could’ve) gone to uni farther from home. I have also tended to think that I needed, mostly, to relax a little and open myself up to the work I was reading, rather than seeing it as a task, as Work. I was a bit Hermione Granger about things, too. Not just academic things.

Yet I am not still sure I was fundamentally capable of making other decisions at the time. In thinking about this question, which I interpreted as follows: Interested in whether those who pay alot more for their college educations [i.e., pay for it themselves] are generally more active?

I think that anyone who has an internal sense of motivation—whether that comes from paying your way or, in my case, knowing that an education was the only way out of my crushingly small Midwestern town—are the ones who tend to take it all more “seriously.” For better or worse.

But, I’d say, largely for the better. My high school was so small and provincial, that I was always mildly shocked when something I’d learned there actually turned out to be accurate: I realized at some point that I just expected to find out that everything I’d ever learned turn out to be mostly wrong. This means that I was pretty much of a sponge for academic work, for going to lectures, for becoming truly “educated.”

Additionally, in regards to the dream of all that “great sex” I was missing out on by being too terrified of failing academically, especially my first two years at university . . . when it comes down to it, I, personally, had no basis for just “relaxing a little and opening myself” up in ways relating to sexual activities, anyway, that were also self-protective. As I discovered when I studied abroad, and that came as quite a shock. But such naivete, in my experience, is common to many 20 yo women.

(Date rape or sexual activities gone horribly wrong are pretty commonplace among my students, and I know one male former student who is doing time, right now, for a date rape incident that he still believes to have been consensual).

The hook-up culture that dominates the heterosexual social scene on US campuses, anyway—and has, to my mind, at least since I was in college in the late 1980s, although we didn’t have a label for it—is not something that either men or women in the US are really very prepared to deal with the potential consequences of, by and large.

So, I guess I do agree that going into debt in order to have wild debauched times in university is often a very costly mistake, not just financially.
 
 
Loomis
14:52 / 23.11.05
Shit Guardian quiz.
 
 
Saveloy
14:55 / 23.11.05
Unlike most of the respondents so far I was proper thick, so I didn't go to uni, I went to art college. A year of foundation, a year of OND and two years of HND.

The HND was a slacker's paradise, and I bloody loved it. The lecturers would show up, give you a project to do, then leave you to your own devices. A few weeks later they would return, look at what you'd come up with, have a little chat about it, then disappear again. As long as you'd cobbled something together at the end of the alloted time, you were okay. Over a four year stint I produced half a dozen models, a couple of sketchbooks and 30 or so drawings (half of them unfinished).

My final project was a disaster - I spent the entire last term making big plans and thinking: "This is going to be *fantastic!* I'll start it tomorrow, after I've been down the record shop." Right up to the night before the day it was supposed to be finished, at which point it suddenly dawned on me that I couldn't do an entire final project in one night, even if I drank lots of coffee and didn't go to bed. Gah!

So, as far as getting anything tangible done, it was a massively wasted opportunity - the college had a brilliant workshop, and any student with motivation and ideas could have produced anything they liked - and I *do* wish I'd made more of it. But I'm pretty sure that going straight into a job would have been a disaster for me. It would have been too much like a continuation of school (attendance required, dress code, requirement to perform, constantly observed, heirarchy etc) and I *suspect* I would have ended up a sad, bitter, miserable little bastard.
 
 
GogMickGog
15:35 / 23.11.05
Whilst living at home is more feasible, what about the issue that there may not actually be anywhere good near where you live? I could have gone to what are, frankly, several rather mediocre universities in my vicinity.

Distance is itself appealling: my brother has applied solely to universities up in the far, far North, purely to escape the home counties (the irony that these places are entireley filled with people names Gemima who find the locals terribly quaint may be lost on him.)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:07 / 23.11.05
the idea of receiving anything as categorical as a pass or failfor a piece of work during term seems to me decidedly odd

Does it really?

Guessing this is about assessment culture as much as anything. Eg, my first degree was 50/50 coursework/exams, so all essays were assessed, graded and contributed to final mark.

I'm guessing, if yrs weren't pass/fail/'categorically' graded, they didn't count towards your final degree grade? Being more about keeping you writing/working/refining knowledge than about providing basis for assessment?
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
17:34 / 23.11.05
Someone said: Unless you're doing some course you hate because of family pressure or something, why are you there?

Alas said As someone who teaches in the US system, I have to say I’m pretty much completely of this view. I really hate seeing all the resources of my university so under-utilized by most of the students. We’ll bring in brilliant lecturers who speak to half-capacity crowds of dull-eyed students who are only there if their profs force them to go. We have a wonderful library system that many students studiously resist learning to use. I know that many professors work very hard on making our classes both challenging and at least reasonably engaging, and most at least present some worthwhile material, even if the presentation leaves something to be desired. So this middle-class entitled angst bullshit is pretty wearing.

I wonder how much this has to do with the way schooling is regarded as job training? A lot to most of the people I know in school are there to get (or maybe, are paying for) X degree so that they might get Y job when they graduate. The desire to do Y job is often explained with 'it pays well.' With the focus solely on getting the degree, I think that the actual learning that is necessary to get there ceases to be important in and of itself- when, of course, that learning should be the purpose of school in the first place. Money/entitlement plays into this, I think- "I'm paying $40,000 dollars to come here so I automatically deserve a degree bleeeeaaaaarrggggghhh!!!!!"
 
 
ibis the being
17:45 / 23.11.05
I had a similar experience, Boboss. I always thought I was naturally good at writing and didn't have to work as hard as the average person. I transferred from art school to a liberal arts school that required you pass a writing placement exam, even if you were a transfer. As the exam approached, I didn't ask a single professor to help me revise, though it was strongly recommended. I was convinced I would breeze through - but I didn't even PASS. That certainly took me down a few pegs.

I was not a bad student, but far from great. I was a solid B student, and content to remain so. I just didn't have the drive to ever achieve beyond "above average," and I felt it was at least as important to be happy and well-rested as it was to excel. Plus, I just didn't like the college environment... I basically couldn't wait to get out of there and start earning a living. I can say I wish I did it differently, but the truth is, given a second chance I probably wouldn't try much harder. Not bragging - I'm just being honest.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
17:53 / 23.11.05
I was bad. The first year I commuted from home, did no work, struggled as a small fish in a big pond when I had only ever known the reverse, and wrestled with my great and secret sexual perversiy. After that, I moved into a flat in town, still did no work, swam all over the big pond and made whoopee with the little boy fishes.

I did of course do some work, just a smidgeon, when I was really interested in the subject. I usually wasn't all that fascinated by, say, The Reign of Terror at 9 a.m. or 5 p.m. I sometimes went to a class or a tutorial late morning or early afternoon. This was all so long ago and in such stuffy faculties that everything rode on your mark in the end of year exams so you could get away with murder as long as you turned up and threw down some brilliance on paper over a few days in early Summer every year. I was quick witted enough and had a sufficiently well trained memory in those days to cope with that.

I had a ball, in short, and it made me what I am today: an ageing fatbeard with a head full of nonsense and a pneumatic liver. Less than ten per cent of kids got to University in those days, so you felt a lot of pressure to do well and become Prime Minister and not come creeping home with tail between legs to get a real job like all your schoolfriends had. I was always conscious that I was being accorded rare privilege and not making much of it.

I wish I hadn't worried so much though. It all worked out extremely well in the end. It was just that getting a degree turned out to be a much smaller part of the recipé for a happy, fulfilled life than I then knew.
 
 
ibis the being
17:53 / 23.11.05
Unless you're doing some course you hate because of family pressure or something, why are you there?

As for this question, I guess I'd have to say I was too young to know I didn't HAVE to go to college. It wasn't exactly family pressure, but I had the impression that I was going to wind up working fast food if I didn't get the Almighty Bachelor's Degree. I tried to make it as interesting as possible for myself by studying art and writing. But the whole structure, environment, social activities of college - none of it ever appealed to me, and I was bored and unhappy much of the time.

Now, I'm "using" my training in the sense that my career is artistic, but I'm not using my degree because I'm self-employed in a field that doesn't require a degree. Knowing what I know now, I would never have gone to college. In fact I'm quite bitter about having to repay big student loans that I now feel were, if not a waste of money, certainly an unwise expenditure (my parents don't owe anything, FWIW). I wish I had gone to a trade school or a community college, or just starting working and done some CC coursework as an adult.

When I have a child of college-going age, I plan to do my best to help him/her make a better decision about education than I did, and not just leap into a life of financial indebtedness.
 
 
Spaniel
09:26 / 24.11.05
Well, fair enough if you want to look at things like that, but having grown up in an Evangelical Christian church I tend to be wary of beating myself up for things I did in the past that were fun at the time and didn't actually do anybody any harm...

Well that assumes the things you were doing were actually fun. Sure, I sometimes enjoyed the sense of freedom offered by university, at other times I suffered from horrible existential angst. On the whole I didn't take advantage of the social opportunities that came my way (not a particularly bad thing in that I already had an established group of friends in the area), didn't use my free time in anything like a satisfactory way, and didn't assert my individuality. Mainly I just coasted through life.
So, yes, there's shame involved, but there's also regret that I didn't take advantage of many of possibilities offered by university, both academic, intellectual, and social.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:42 / 24.11.05
I'm sorry but I still don't understand what anyone here is ashamed of- usually when you slack off it's a protection of some kind. It's mad to regret the past when you're not the same person anymore, it's basically another way of saying "if I was my friend Susan I would be able to study harder", the point being that you're not your friend Susan or yourself at 18.

I am glad I didn't work too hard at university in light of my life since. Working sucks and I'm pleased that I took the opportunity to sleep and watch shit TV while I could.
 
 
Sax
11:45 / 24.11.05
I was never a proper student. I did a nine-month journalism course but it was very intensive and didn't give much opportunity for sitting around watching Neighbours. As a result, in my twenties I felt I may have missed out on a lot of casual sex, irresponsible drinking and frankly stupid drug abuse, so swiftly made up for it, not without cost.

Don't rush into work, kids. It fucks you up.
 
 
Smoothly
12:05 / 24.11.05
Is there nothing you feel regretful or ashamed about, Nina?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:53 / 24.11.05
I can't think of anything.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
13:02 / 24.11.05
In retrospect I think I was a pretty crap student although not for lacking in enthusiasm.

I was cursed with the appearance of intelligence combined with complete ineptitude in actual academia. Despite the hopes and aspiration of my teachers my passing grades were the definition of average. They were suprised because I appeared to work hard and appeared to know the material. The simple fact is that the artificial environment of the exam room did nothing to bring out what I did know. On grades day the line "I'm suprised you didn't do better". was trotted out repeatedly. Not one to take things too badly I went on to college to do what I was expected to do and plugged away through the courses. With high hopes I once again entered the exam rooms and emerged a total failure. Literally no passing grades at all.

You'd think that if I learnt anything it was that learning really wasn't for me. But like the donkey chasing the carrot I entered an access course determined to prove that I really did have the intellectual acumen that I had been repeatedly told I had. Once again I was rewarded with failure. I've justified this in many ways but the truth is that I reached the limit of my classroom capacity.

Ultimately I found more reward packing T-shirts in a factory than I ever did in the classroom and all of my education thereafter has been experienced based. My only foray into education since has been evening classes in photography which weren't exactly learning heavy.
 
 
Sax
13:03 / 24.11.05
Not even that rugby squad?
 
 
Spaniel
13:13 / 24.11.05
Nina, the point is that things about me (who I am right now) piss me off, and I feel that had I approached university differently, I would have gone some way to becoming a person I would rather be. My regrets are based on wanting things for myself, so in effect they are tied to a form of personal aspiration. Is that so difficult to understand?

However, I think regret is basically not a very useful way of approaching the world, and is, therefore, problematic.
 
 
Sax
13:20 / 24.11.05
You see, son, it's better to regret something you have done rather than regret something you haven't done.

Oh, and by the way, if you see your mother this weekend, be sure and tell her--
 
 
Spaniel
13:29 / 24.11.05
I dunno about that, Sax. Both kinds of regret suggest that you can see all ends, and, frankly, you can't.
 
 
Smoothly
13:37 / 24.11.05
I don’t want to speak for Nina, but I think her point might be that it makes no more sense to feel shame for your own past actions than it does to feel shame for other people’s actions. ‘You’ have no more influence over the former than you do the latter.

I bet Nina doesn’t have a pension plan either.
 
 
Spaniel
13:42 / 24.11.05
I was talking about regret, not shame. Shame, however, can serve a useful function in that it can encourage us to modify bad behaviour.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:28 / 24.11.05
had I approached university differently, I would have gone some way to becoming a person I would rather be.

I think this presumes that you could have been any other person at that time and I don't really believe that could have/should have situation that we create for ourselves is real. If you weren't motivated there was a reason for that, it's far more likely that your lack of acceptance of what you did/were is making you a person you would rather not be.
 
 
Smoothly
14:34 / 24.11.05
Thought I'd start a new thread to focus on this stuff here, by the way.
 
 
illmatic
18:15 / 24.11.05
I was a good student, I think. Most of the time.

I had two years "out" before going to Uni - the speechmarks are there because it actually wasn't mentioned as an option when I finished my A levels, and I didn't have a fucking clue what I wanted to do so I signed on, went to raves and worked in a bar. So when I finally decided to go, I was quite enthusiastic. Talking about George Orwell for three hours? Compared to being sent to Jobclub in Ilford, this was paradise.

I think one of the best things about it though was it got me out of the fucking shit area I grew up in - not that's it acitvely bad as such, it's not the ghetto, it's just that I can imagine my horizons being hugely limited if I hadn't gone, and had stuck around and got a job locally. I know a few people that did this and it's weird, it's like you never really get away. Ilford's is far enough out of London for it to be easy to stay local, and having all your friends, aspirations and attitudes from the same area- seems I dunno, solimiting, in terms of possibilities.
This is why I'm glad that when I did go, I got out of London - real fresh start and break with those attitudes.

Academically, I wasn't as good as I could've been, I think, partly because of a fucking dreadful secondary education, and partly because of my burgeoning interest in all things occult. I remember really going for it in the third year when I had essays where I could compare Alan Watts and Derrida or start banging on about identity politics and chaos magic or somesuch.

Otherwise, loads of drinking, drugs and socialising, a wonderful fantastic time. I could've done with getting shagged a bit more, but that'll teach me to fancy ruinously prick-teasing women for years at a time. A phase it was perhaps necessary to go through, no matter how idiotic.
 
 
Shrug
19:09 / 24.11.05
Looking back on my secondary school education I was an even worse student than I am today.
Until about 1st year of secondary school, like some others in the thread, I was a perfect student but pretty socially maladjusted. A bit like the kid in About a Boy absent mindedly humming to himself unaware of his perilous and ever dropping status quo. Being gay and clearly knowing it at that age I suppose didn't help in my social interaction either.
Luckily at about 15 I took refuge in Kerrang and newly found alternative friends. My past-times solely consisted of taking ecstasy, smoking dope, reading & finding numerous discreet ways of letting my P.E. teacher know that I was sexually available. Curiously and inexplicably by this time in school I had become well liked by even the tracksuit wearing crowd. There was about 12 solid months of talking about how stoned I was somewhere in there too. My grades, however, never dropped beyond what I felt was acceptable.

Feeling that I had had quite enough of school I stopped going in almost totally at about 17 and stayed at home watching bad tv like Sunset Beach or Jenny Jones with my Dad. The infrequent times when I attended school I became an obstinate little fucker. I was pretty intractable when asked questions and would only give slight answers and then refuse to elaborate or simply shrug.
When my leaving cert came up my parents convinced that I would fail screamed and shouted at me for weeks on end in order to motivate me. The school sent a letter refusing to accept responsibility for my results which didn't help their panic.
I had always kept up with my studies to a certain extent and the constant interruption of "You'll fail, you'll fail", at such a crucial time almost drove me mad.
Nevertheless, despite my parents and the schools opinion, I recieved a very good grade. I was most pleased with my English result, feeling some validation of my (as I thought at the time) trend bucking behaviours. I had read all my novels backwards and my paper 1 essay had taken an avant-gardist approach and half way through degenerated from narrative into painstakingly done illegible scribbles with the odd hieroglyphic.
The point being not WOW zOMG I SCR£W£D TEH $Y$T3M!!11111!!!
but that I was a horrible cunt who just couldn't stand to be told what to do ever and was a horror to teach.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:48 / 24.11.05
had stuck around and got a job locally. I know a few people that did this and it's weird, it's like you never really get away. Ilford's is far enough out of London for it to be easy to stay local, and having all your friends, aspirations and attitudes from the same area- seems I dunno, so limiting, in terms of possibilities.

Oh, absolutely, this to me is one of the major things that my Uni life did for me. I can definitely empathise with this one. There are people I know who are a couple of years older than me who, when I was 15 and first going out, were talking about 'moving to London and out of home'.

Thing is, I'm 30 now and re still having that conversation with those people.

I don't think I'd've been any more motivated to move out of home/away had University not provided a very easy/familially and socially acceptable way to do it. I hope I'd've done it eventually, but it would have taken a lot longer. If it had happened at all.
 
 
Spaniel
23:24 / 24.11.05
GGM, you have a dark, secret life.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
08:11 / 25.11.05
A bellyful of wine, also.

Also think *having* to make new friends was a very good(if initially terrifying) thing.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
08:19 / 25.11.05
I could've done with getting shagged a bit more

Isn't this true for alot of people? Despite all those big firsts, I didn't have as much sex at uni as I'd thought I would.

There was, AFAI can remember, definite a bit of a feeling amongst most people that it probably should be a huge sexathon. Coupled with feeling that it might well be for other people and they were 'missing out'.

Mind you, like Ill, *alot* of drugs. This may not have helped that cause.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
08:37 / 25.11.05
I know it's just a dumb quiz, but that thing is *so* Guardian:

How do you plan to spend your holidays?
*On work experience placements
*Working my way through the course reading list *Inter-railing through Europe
*Recovering from the excesses of termtime

God. In the context of a money quiz, there is no option for 'working full-time to get money for uni'.
 
 
illmatic
08:47 / 25.11.05
Coupled with feeling that it might well be for other people and they were 'missing out'.


I think judging yourself by the amazing standrds that you project onto others (usually mistakenly) is a huge thing for most people. Doesn't end at Uni either. I did particulary miserably in the sex stakes but it was that whole "aura of desperation" thing.
 
 
Axolotl
08:49 / 25.11.05
I was always really jealous of all my friends who managed to get away during the holidays.
My experience was always doing heavy, manual temping jobs, which looking back should have really motivated me to pull my finger out, but didn't.
I suppose you could argue I learnt more shifting boxes in warehouses than hanging around with Tristram & Jocasta on a beach in Thailand, but I know which one I'd rather have done.
 
 
Ariadne
08:57 / 25.11.05
I'm a bit of a swot, can't help it. At Uni I studied hard, always did essays and assignments on time, and I'm good at exams so in that sense I did fine. But I didn't have the confidence or interest I should have had, so I only did what I had to do and no more. Also, I was living at home and engaged (!) so missed out on the whole social side. Which is a shame.
But, following on from what Loomis said about it being possible to work and 'find yourself', I finished uni, un-engaged myself, moved to Edinburgh to start work - and had a ball. It's been funny moving back years later because I keep meeting the ghost of the 22-year-old me - the oddest places remind me of that slightly unhinged, very fun time of my life. So, I guess it worked out - I got the degree, can still speak the languages I learned then, and got to have the silly stuff later on.
 
 
HCE
04:54 / 29.11.05
The kind of student I was is quite different from the kind of student I am. My academic career started going downhill at around age nine and by the time college came around, I was consistently failing classes for the fourth and fifth times. If not for passing all my AP exams I would not have made it out of high school, much less gotten into college, and to this day I have at least as many college credits from those exams as from proper uni courses. I suppose I was a small fish in a small pond, and have never managed to get myself into a pond of any considerable size. When I discovered girls at 19 I had no qualms at all about abandoning school completely, and I didn't go back until just a few months ago.

Now, at 33, my instructors love me. I am a model of diligence. I quite like the term mature student -- much better than 'adult student', particularly as I am studying film, and it would be dishonest to say that I am an 'adult film student.'
 
 
*
05:30 / 29.11.05
Heh. I leave this thread alone for awhile and grant explains our alma mater much better than I could have done. Thanks.
 
  

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