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The Bad Student

 
  

Page: 1(2)34

 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:29 / 23.11.05
Like many people here, I coasted through school, and started off being the ultimate square kid - I was Hermione Granger basically. *cringe*

The real *cringe* is that I chucked the HG attitude at about 14/15 and never worked hard again. ie just when it would have been useful. D'oh. Like others here A'level results were... something of a shock.

So. Uni 1: a mixture of boboss and loomis, I'd say. Studying stuff I was mostly interested in, so most of the stuff didn't feel like work/was in my head. Didn't attend any lectures/many classes but enjoyed what I did.

Pretty much all essays till 3rd year written night before. Deadlines in my depts=moveable feast; didn't hand in until I had to. Left me near the end of the 2nd year having to write 11 essays in two weeks, just before exams.

Hellish. But made me slightly more organised in 3rd year/useful lesson.

Buuut, still coasted hugely, much more involved with other stuff - nightline, bands, taking lots of drugs and talking about huxley for hours[insert other arts student cliches here].

I wish I'd worked harder, but the stuff I did instead/socially/work-wise was also really good for me or really had to happen, so I'm not sure I'd swop it. Gave me time and safe space to have enormous breakdown, for eg.
Having said that, I was close to a better degree grade, and a bit more work might've swung it
 
 
grant
11:33 / 23.11.05
I think I fit the Boboss/Ganesh/most-of-the-rest-of-you mold in that I was (and am) fairly lazy and fairly bright, but I (along with identity and probably a couple other people on this board) had the extreme good fortune of attending an (undergraduate) school where things were done somewhat differently.

I very nearly made that "Oh, I'll save money by attending the local college" mistake (Scottish ancestry?) but one of my high school English teachers put her foot down and lectured me, and I found out about this place.

We didn't get grades.

You sort of have to think that over for a minute. Instead of grades, we got page-long (or longer) evaluations of our work in class, along with a pass/fail mark ("sat" for satisfactory or "unsat").

But that's not the end of the lunacy. No, at the beginning of each semester we each sat down with our advisors and negotiated a contract. "I'm going to take these five classes, and I'm going to pass at least four of them," would be a fairly typical one. Five out of fives were considered sort of hard, and there was always one or two kids (out of a total population of 500 students) who went for an insane five out of seven or something. If you passed all your classes, they show up in your transcript, you get credit for them, etc. If you negotiated a five out of five and only pass four, you lose the entire semester. There were mechanisms -- review boards and whatnot -- for saving classes from failed contracts, but they were ominous, dark and cruel.

So I was lazy -- I tended to read what I wanted to read rather than what I was assigned to read -- but I was also sort of encouraged to follow those interests, which is how I wound up with such a strange undergrad degree (B.A., Hermeneutics). I never bothered with Art of the Novel, which was a prerequisite for an English major, and goofed around with Asian Religions and Japanese Novel instead.

I think this probably made me a better learner -- or, well, better educated in some fields that I found really interesting -- but led to some woeful business in graduate school, where I (foolishly!) skipped all the (boring!) intro classes, and suddenly found myself competing for grades (which equalled TA jobs) in classes where I wasn't really sure what was going on. And I continued to read in the way I wanted, which was half a symptom of laziness, and half something more pernicious -- Ignatius J. Reilly-style superiority over whatever I found boring.

I was a cocky antiestablishment learner.

I finally got the hang of things by the end of my second year there, but by then I'd decided to forget the Ph.D. and comp out with an M.A. in English (rendering me completely unemployable) because I was getting really nervous about the amount of debt I was racking up in student loans. Now, I laugh at debts of that size and kick sand on them at the beach.

I'll probably wind up going back, but I shudder to think of asking any of my grad professors for letters of recommendation. I was that boy who never wrote to the assignment.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:34 / 23.11.05
Uni 2:'worked' much harder on MA but then, like Loomis, it didn't really feel like 'work'

Appreciated the academic space enormosly and took much more active role (eg complaining when teaching wasn't up to scratch. *never* have occurred to me on BA*) and when wasn't 'working', was in a community discussing/seeing things/constantly 'in it'. Fantastic.

Loved it, and although again I still could have worked much harder (having done 9-5 + previously, lots of getting up at noon/midweek clubbing/getting to know London), think I got the balance pretty well. A good year, that.


*This was partly about age and partly about paying for the damn thing. We were a bolshy year, I think, partly because we regarded ourselves as customers paying for a service!

Interested in whether those who pay alot more for their college educations are generally more active?
 
 
Smoothly
11:36 / 23.11.05
Having said that, I was close to a better degree grade, and a bit more work might've swung it

Just out of interest, would that have mattered? It occurs to me that a few weeks after graduation, no one ever even asks what class of degree you got. And now I think about it, I’ve never been asked to prove that I actually have a degree (I don’t think I even have any proof). My tangible, measured under-achievement is the under-achievement I care least about now.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:39 / 23.11.05
*Imagines dealing with 'fuck academic shit up' Grant.*

Ayeeeeeee.

I was that boy who never wrote to the assignment.

See, I realise from this, on the Lit side I rarely *cared enough* to do this, I just answered the questions pragmatically and functionally and, I suspect, extremely boringly. Except the one essay on Ulysses that I got interested enough to decide to refute my tutor's entire argument. Which, presumably for not being as turgid as everything else I'd produced, got me a high mark.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:41 / 23.11.05
Not only do I think people would get more out of university it they went later

More what though, that's the question, isn't it? Ganesh aside, there seems to be an assumption running through this thread that the sometimes huge secondary role of university - the way in which it gives many people new freedoms and opportunities in terms of social life, personal development, etc - is at best a distraction, at worst a waste of time.

Now, I share some of the regrets people have about not having spent quite as much time in the library as I should, and I'd never want to stand up for anti-intellectualism or students who complain about having to write essays. But actually, I also regret not taking the opportunity to do a bit more of lots of other things at university. And if I really regret anything about my own behaviour, it's that I was so badly socialised prior to arriving that it took me pretty much all of my three years there to develop working social skills and a half-decent sense of how to interact confidently with people I din't know, or even did know. And I also regret that I didn't appreciate the whole thing more at the time - the freedom, the time, the sense of space, the locale, the people within easy access - I regret that I didn't really twig that this was not going to last forever, although if I'm honest I do remember being terrified of what would happen after I left.

I have to say I'm picking up the rather odd sense of the GIFT OF SHAME as a good thing in some of the posts above - and not shame as in "have you no shame?" (about treating people in a bad way, say), but shame as in a sense of regret for the way people chose to live their live when they were young and having fun. Oh, the shame. Well, fair enough if you want to look at things like that, but having grown up in an Evangelical Christian church I tend to be wary of beating myself up for things I did in the past that were fun at the time and didn't actually do anybody any harm...

Confusingly, there also seem to be the idea of hard work as a virtue in itself running through this thread. Not a bad thing, and not totally disconnected from the value of academic study, but not quite the same thing either - at least not in my experience as an English student. My fondest memories of the time I spent actually 'studying' are of the times when I was able to relax a little and open myself up to the work I was reading, rather than seeing it as a task, as Work. I wish I'd done that more - reading Wordsworth on a sun-dappled lawn, that kind of malarkey. Which brings us to...

I’m now acclimatised to the idea that I just have to get up at 9 o’clock and spend about 8 hours at work, and that doesn’t even bother me much.

Is this, then, an attitude/behaviour that people should learn during their time at university? Is the current problem with the UK's university's that they don't leave people sufficiently institutionalised? I'd argue that it is a problem insofaras university for many people is experienced as a misleading hiatus from getting up and half-past seven, and getting a 9-to-5 job after that can be a bit of a nasty shock. But I'm a little wary of the view that "This is the real world, everyone has to do it so get used to it", because no matter how many times I might find myself thinking or saying that, I'm still aware that it's a little... limiting.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:44 / 23.11.05
Sorry, wrote that before this had reached two pages, so apologies GGM and anyone else if they should have been added to "Ganesh aside".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:48 / 23.11.05
At the risk of kicking over Grant's Summerhill, the idea of receiving anything as categorical as a pass or failfor a piece of work during term seems to me decidedly odd.
 
 
Loomis
11:52 / 23.11.05
Now, I share some of the regrets people have about not having spent quite as much time in the library as I should, and I'd never want to stand up for anti-intellectualism or students who complain about having to write essays. But actually, I also regret not taking the opportunity to do a bit more of lots of other things at university.

Oh, I certainly agree that uni is as much about growing up/having fun/ exploring new things as about book-learning. But I'm astonished by how little study some people did. There's plenty of room for both sides of uni life and I would regret having done less of either. You can party as hard as you like and still attend most classes.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
11:58 / 23.11.05
Grant's course sounds amazing/terrifying.

Contracted/negotiated requirements? WOW.

Just out of interest, would that have mattered?

To my geek self-esteem: a little, now.

At the time, in terms of outside pressures, *alot* (ie, would probably have felt vindicated at unpopular-with-parents decisions re degree subj if I'd got a first)

Also It might(big emph on might, no certainty here) have gotten me funding for my MA which would have
a)saved me at least 7 grand
b)perhaps meant I was more passive/complacent when I got there.

So, mixed blessing. But that potential 7grand irks me a little. Also, as I have occasional brushes with academia, it becomes vaguely relevant occasionally.
 
 
GogMickGog
11:59 / 23.11.05
Indolent to the point of madness.

I spent years struggling as an academic fish in a very rugby, sub-par boarding school and was intellectually shafted on my first year of applying to university by my evil tutor. I spent a year adrift between supermarkets and Mexican beaches and finally wormed my way into Cambridge, a lfe long dream.

And then wham! I discover that leep is better than work, sex better than both, and I find myself idling hours away on messageboards such as this.

Woops.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:02 / 23.11.05
Leep?
 
 
Loomis
12:03 / 23.11.05
to add to my last post, and with reference to this part of Flyboy's post:

My fondest memories of the time I spent actually 'studying' are of the times when I was able to relax a little and open myself up to the work I was reading, rather than seeing it as a task, as Work.

Maybe this is a dichotomy we could look at, because I would describe just about my entire university experience as "relaxing and opening myself" rather than "work". Maybe it's a question of perspective? How many students view their study as "work", and to what extent does that affect their enjoyment of it? And how much of this viewpoint is something the student takes into university with them, rather than the way the classes are taught?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:04 / 23.11.05
You know, with dignity.
 
 
Ganesh
12:09 / 23.11.05
Leep?

Wouldn't that be higher EDUCATION?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:10 / 23.11.05
I was able to relax a little and open myself up to the work I was reading, rather than seeing it as a task, as Work.

Oh, absolutely. Cringing/joking aside, I regard the long acid-fuelled conversations about Huxley and consciousness as part of my education as much, if not more than many of the cram-facts-into-head, regurgitate in standard essay stuff that I did.

Although some of the best bits were when the lines between the activities broke down, I think.

Also: lucky more than anything, given the little thought I put into degree subject, that the Art History side fascinated me and I found myself relaxing/opening up to it, as Petey describes.

I mean, I might well have had those conversations at home, and had done to an extent, but for me, living away from home/the potential for total immersion in interests was a hugely educational thing.

(reading back, realising that although I tend to feel that I loathed alot of my first degree time, actually it was pretty useful/foundational in ways I don't give enough credit to)

Incidentally, though it took me years to follow it up, uni provided my first exposure to the work that has become my vocation. Couldn't have done what I did in that regard anywhere else, I think.

Stuff that looks great on my CV, incidentally.

Also: I had sex for the first time/discovered my sexual tastes and fell in love for the first time. Which I'd class as, y'know, pretty big stuff.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:15 / 23.11.05
Loomis, I think that's a great discussion to have.

I think what I value about my first uni experience is the time I had. So much time. To pursue interests, academic /other, to get to know people, to get to know myself.
 
 
Ganesh
12:19 / 23.11.05
I mean, I might well have had those conversations at home, and had done to an extent, but for me, living away from home/the potential for total immersion in interests was a hugely educational thing.

Absolutely - and that's what I regret not doing, or not doing enough of. If I were able to do it all again, I'm not sure that I'd necessarily change my course - ambivalent as I've always been about it, Medicine/Psychiatry's turned out okay for me - but I would definitely study it at a different university. Away from home, away from hicksville, away from anyone who knew me. I think then I'd have had the breathing space to break free of my strait-laced Sandra Dee chrysalis and blossom into the beeyoootiful Olivia Newton John-in-spandex-bodysuit butterfly of my dreams.

Of course, then I'd probably never have passed the damn thing, but there y'go.

For me, it felt like work, mental slog, from the word go. Apart from Psychiatry, which was a delight. The only subject in which I got a distinction, and the only part of Medicine which would've kept me being a doctor.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:28 / 23.11.05
More what though, that's the question, isn't it? Ganesh aside, there seems to be an assumption running through this thread that the sometimes huge secondary role of university - the way in which it gives many people new freedoms and opportunities in terms of social life, personal development, etc - is at best a distraction, at worst a waste of time.

I don't think the social side, that goes along with growth and experimentation is a waste of time at all. But for many, it seems to me that this side isn't particularly dependent on going to university at all. Its much more about having some kind of independence and freedom in which to expresss yourself.

So while that is important, I don't think one can ignore the educational function of university. Lets remember, uni education is neither universal nor compulsary and it seems to me to be an enormous waste not to use *some* of the time at uni to study, as some people upthread have recounted.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
12:36 / 23.11.05
Interested in whether those who pay alot more for their college educations are generally more active?

Judging by my school- no, although that might be because most of the students there are relatively wealthy, and thus presumably place less value on money. In fact, I would say that most of the people there value their education less than people in other places do (based on talking to friends at other schools)- or rather, they value the act of learning a lot less, even if they happen to do their classwork. A lot of them also feel an annoying sense of entitlement. There's a general apathy towards learning (the first day of an English class my freshman year, a girl was complaining that the class involved reading books- I'm constantly encountering the 'you're an english major? you read books? what's wrong with you?' though I'm sure that's not unique to my school), and it's one of my least favorite aspects of my university- basically I can't stand about 90 percent of the people I meet and therefore my social life is not what it could be, but that's another story. Anyway, priorities there seem to run along the lines of 1)get drunk a lot 2)have lots of sex (neither of those in themselves bad things but) coupled with a distant c) oh, I guess we're going to school here and we should go to classes occasionally but who does my professor think he is to assign us essays and how come they made that test so hard?

On the other hand, my roommate last year was a bit of a slacker and he was working his own way through college. He was very engaged with a lot of what he was studying- there were lots of freewheeling discussions about coursework to be had in our room between the hours of one and five in the morning- but he didn't care particularly for grades and if something didn't interest him he wouldn't really bother with it. In that I think he did value things more than most other kids there, in that he was engaged with much of what he was learning. He ended up transferring at the end of last year, in large part due to the environment and general attitude towards learning people have there.

Regarding whether classwork is regarded as 'work': frankly, I enjoy essays, I'm just horrible at budgeting time for them, so it's not a case of oh-god-I-have-another-essay-to-do-this-is-horrible. I think I do see them as work to an extent- they're certainly draining and stressful enough, though again that might relate to my last-minute tendencies- but it's enjoyable work. And I love when stuff I've learned in a classroom or writing a paper carries over into the sort of discussions I had with my roommate last year. I'm going to miss him.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:38 / 23.11.05
But for many, it seems to me that this side isn't particularly dependent on going to university at all.

Really? One could just as easily say that academic study doesn't require going to university at all.
 
 
P. Horus Rhacoid
12:44 / 23.11.05
But for many, it seems to me that this side isn't particularly dependent on going to university at all.

I can't think of a similar environment of lots and lots of people my age who are aglow with the freedom of being out from under their parents' thumbs, sharing similar (new) experiences, academic or otherwise. I think the social and academic areas of university are inextricably intertwined, and should be- there is one big area of my social life that I frequently prioritize over schoolwork, and I couldn't find it anywhere else. I've learned just as much through that as I have through any of my classes.

I'm not talking about a significant other, by the way.
 
 
Smoothly
13:09 / 23.11.05
Thing is, Flyboy, it’s all too easy to recast past failure as just another flavour of success. Prison – best thing that ever happened to me, made me what I am today etc. That’s not to say that’s never true, or that it’s never helpful to think of it that way, but I think it can be employed dishonestly.
So on one level, my university career was a raging success in terms of asserting my own identity, expanding my range of interests, indulging various proclivities and opening my mind, maaan. However, from an academic perspective, it was a miserable failure. And I agree with Lurid in that that should be at least part of the equation one should aim to balance.

On the shame front, I didn’t feel shame about the ways in which I decided to indulge myself; I feel shame at how I dismissed the efforts the academic staff made to engage me in those aspects of the institution. I had, afterall, agreed to participate in a particular course of study, and I feel now that I welched on that deal.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:20 / 23.11.05
Really? One could just as easily say that academic study doesn't require going to university at all.

I know what you mean and I'm not saying that the social side of university has no value, but I really have seen a lot of students use uni as a place to get drunk and high a lot. Thats fine, but I don't see an actual university as integral to that.

So yeah, the idea that you set up the infrastructure of a university, with libraries and lecturers and classrooms and so forth just so that middle class 18-21 year olds can hang out with other middle class 18-21 year olds does seem to me a teeny bit of a waste and a missed oppurtunity. Equally, however, someone who goes to uni and only ever spends time in the library and comes out with an excellent degree has also missed an oppurtunity.
 
 
GogMickGog
13:30 / 23.11.05
um...sleep I meant.

Leep, on the other hand, is a terrible practise. I would recommend it to none but the most immoral of sorts (of which I am sure there are many here). It is messy, painful, and it will only upset the parents of those involved.

Just say no.
 
 
grant
13:36 / 23.11.05
I definitely think the social aspects are more important than the academic ones -- I could read all this stuff and criticism of this stuff and criticism of criticism of this stuff on my own.

But I couldn't talk about it with other people who were reading the same stuff, or related stuff, at the same time. That enthusiasm is infectious.

And just learning what other people are like and how people live -- drinking, dating, talking until 4 a.m. about road trips and fondue and Heidegger and cranial massage -- that stuff is vital, too.

But there's also this other realm that's sort of between the academic and the purely social, and that's the thing I feel the most guilt about missing out on (even if I took advantage, I should have taken *more*). Things like free canoe rentals and museum admissions and weekend seminars and tai chi classes and afternoon tea with the professor emeritus... just the things that happen around any campus.

-----


Haus: At the risk of kicking over Grant's Summerhill, the idea of receiving anything as categorical as a pass or fail for a piece of work during term seems to me decidedly odd.

Well, individual pieces of work weren't necessarily p/f – they were usually simply evaluated. For classes on the humanities side, you'd get (or rather, I'd get) rather long descriptions about where the essay's organization breaks down and where it became obvious that you were (or, well, I was) leavening the material with unnecessary filler. On the math/science side, there were exams which were graded, in a way – percentages right and wrong, that kind of thing. The emphasis was always on hands-on work and experimentation, though.

Every student who gets through the place alive is prone to crack jokes that no one else gets by creating variations on the sentence, "In the final analysis, every student is responsible for his or her own education." It's part of the brainwashing. Uh, social conditioning.

Weapons, Wall, Shaftoe: I was able to relax a little and open myself up to the work I was reading, rather than seeing it as a task, as Work.

I remember early on in grad school feeling peculiarly guilty about skipping assigned reading (like The Pearl in Medieval lit) in favor of reading beyond the excerpts from longer works we'd been previously assigned (like the Tristan & Isolde story in Le Morte D'Arthur… how does it end? how does it end?).
 
 
Loomis
13:48 / 23.11.05
I'm wondering how much of this life experience could be gained simply by moving out of home and getting a job rather than going to university? I notice it particularly in some comments made here because where I come from (Sydney, Aus) it's most common for people to go to university in Sydney and live at home, since there are a few decent unis in the city. You're certainly not going to get any money from the govt to pay for accomodation unless you have good reasons for needing it (problems at home, or needing to travel from the country, etc.).

Whereas in the UK people think nothing of taking on massive students loans to pay for their food and accomodation during what is basically an extended holiday from home, even if there is a good university in their own town/city. I see it all the time in my job, as students drop out of uni after a couple of years of fucking about and they owe a fortune. They'd be better off moving to a new city, getting a job and a flat. They'd learn more, have plenty of time for life experience and wouldn't be saddled with tens of thousands of pounds of debt for a course they never passed.
 
 
grant
13:54 / 23.11.05
wondering how much of this life experience could be gained simply by moving out of home and getting a job rather than going to university?

I think you miss out on all the benefits of belonging to a tribe -- people the same age with the same concerns and the same challenges to overcome, roughly. Jobs & social circles aren't quite as tight-knit as students, I don't think. At least not in my tiny college.
 
 
Ganesh
13:56 / 23.11.05
Loomis, I'm not sure getting a job would necessarily allow the expanse of time (that GGM also mentions) to do all the sex/drugs/booze/LARP stuff. Or at least, not to do it messily which, when you're late teens/early 20s is rather the point. In medical school, the first two 'pre-med' years were acknowledged to be the time for getting that out of one's system, before settling down to three years of daily ward-attendance, essays and exams, which were much more like getting a job.

I think the first year, in particular, was socially important. I've always regretted the fact that, by living at home and treating that time as a formal 9-5 extension of school, I largely missed out on it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:57 / 23.11.05
Really, forget having to get a job - they should have to do a few years of national service! That would teach them what it's like to be part of a community, without giving them the opportunity to smoke "bowls" and play the Grand Theft Auto.
 
 
matthew.
14:00 / 23.11.05
Funny. My therapist told me to immediately move out of my parents house and into a school that's far away from my current school. I still haven't done it - the practical issues, and all that.

Yeah, I'm a decent student. I study. My GPA's high, but not ridiculously so. I'm a bad student in terms of the social aspect. I don't make friends easily, so I haven't really met anybody at school, until this last year, though. This year I've been making a lot of friends. It's too bad this is my graduating year, though.
 
 
Loomis
14:07 / 23.11.05
Even a part-time job, enough to pay your rent or something. I dunno. It's not really a fully-formed theory but just something I don't see back home. I just see so many people here piling up huge debts, which amounts to some pretty expensive time off. Besides, I know plenty of people who did most of their slacking/pot smoking/game playing in their twenties while working (doesn't have to be 9-5) and paying rent. Just trying to point out that there are other, less expensive ways of procuring time.

If I told you I was going to borrow twenty grand from the bank and spend the next year or two fucking about with my mates in my flat, would you say it's a good idea? That's a lot of money to pay back.
 
 
matthew.
14:11 / 23.11.05
I was told by numerous people to never never never get a student loan. It is like the mythological Furies on your finances for the next thirty years. Currently, the accountant at my work takes double the tax off my paycheck, then come June, I receive a whopping refund check from the government and that's what pays for my tuition. One of my friends' parents pays for school, and she gets a loan just to pay rent slash travel.
 
 
Quantum
14:13 / 23.11.05
I was Hermione Granger basically. GGM

Shurely that should read "I am Hermione Granger basically"?

I was Boboss at uni, and subsequently joined the swelling ranks of Over-educated Underachievers that are now my contemporaries.

On the one hand I regret not doing better, but on the other... at work I sit between a school leaver with a couple of A levels and a Master of Science, doing exactly the same job. A friend of mine is a Paleobotanist, and pointed out that in her field there are a dozen Doctorates or so each year putting more highly qualified fossilised pollen experts into a market for three UK jobs. That's 3 jobs. Why unnecessarily overqualify yourself?

If anyone asked me now I'd say go to Uni for a couple of years to make friends and get laid, then drop out before the debts get too heavy. You can always lie on your CV after all, and it's never likely to matter whether or not you completed your comparative mythology BA (or whatever).
 
 
Ganesh
14:18 / 23.11.05
Loomis, that's all perfectly sensible. I could've done with being a bit less sensible, though, all things considered. I didn't end up with massive financial debts, though, because under the Scottish system, my parents being divorced meant income was calculated on my mother's earnings, and I qualified for the full student loan. And, of course, medics have the 'bonus' of a year as live-in house doctor, when you're earning a fair bit and are too permanently sleep-deprived to actually spend it.
 
  

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