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Is something wrong with Barbelith?

 
  

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HCE
22:22 / 14.09.06
Elijah, what's stopping you or anybody else from pointing out difficulties if you see them, or trying to contribute to a resolution if examination of a difficulty seems to be turning sticky and sandy? Is it just a question of asking the posters perceived by you as quick on the draw to wait a little while and see if somebody else steps up?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:04 / 14.09.06
Well, in theory at least, more moderators would mean that the current ones wouldn't feel like they have to be "on-duty" all of the time wouldn't it?

Kinda... Olulabelle makes a good point though. There's duty, and also, loth as I am to suggest it, but bad moderation causes more trouble than no moderation. People passing things without checking is usually OK but sometimes awkward, and people proposing things that are going to cause messiness.. well, can cause messiness, esp. when combined with (a).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:39 / 14.09.06
Does this feed back into the numbers game though?

Haus has already said this but to further elaborate, I really meant care and attention there. It's not about how many moderators there are in cases of temporary locking as it is about decisions on what is locked and consensus on that subject. Some people will be more into locking then others and that could potentially cause more discussion and in some cases threadrot then never implementing such a system would. The way our moderation functions means that it's always about individual judgement and if someone vetos something then it can annoy you as much as make you second guess your decision to put forth that request in the first place. That's what I mean by being a moderator first, if someone says no then you have to accept that as a moderation decision, not negativity on the part of another member of Barbelith.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
07:23 / 15.09.06
I thought as much. I guess the next question is what is it that can be done by us lowly non-mods to assist in tighter moderation whilst eliminating some of that on the job feeling that makes you feel unmemberly?
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:13 / 15.09.06
There's duty, and also, loth as I am to suggest it, but bad moderation causes more trouble than no moderation.

Well, one way to possibly prevent that would be to recruit moderators rather than it being the first to volunteer gets the position kind of thing. By this I mean that members are actively approached and asked if they feel they would like to become a mod.

This doesn't have to be done purely by mods. A thread could be set up for people to nominate potential new mods. If the nominee is interested then they can chat with the current mods about what the job entails and things like that. As long as we try and keep the disection of percieved character flaws to a minimum of course (joking, kinda).

Would a selection process help?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:45 / 15.09.06
There are plenty of moderators who could easily have been recruited that pass requests and don't really look at them. This isn't about bad moderators, it's about everyday human error and paying attention to your actions. People just aren't prone to second guessing themselves and no amount of selection is going to change that.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:47 / 15.09.06
(By the way I don't think this is a bad idea at all. I do think people are going to have to think really logically, not about what they want from Barbelith because the question is obsolete but about what is feasible when operating temporary locking.)
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
09:53 / 15.09.06
That's something that really needs to be discussed way before it gets implemented so that everyone has a clear idea. A clear direction needs to be established that can be assessed and evolve.

However, we need to know that such a measure is going to be available, else discussion becomes redundant. As with discussions on posting limitations on individuals, I'm happy to start threads to wrangle minutia, once we know it's feasible in a workable fashion.
 
 
Ticker
13:49 / 15.09.06
please help me frame this....

It appears we've come to the conclusion that the issue is not the structural 'how Barbelith works' meaning the process flow of conflict resolution as a conflict passes up to Policy and then gets examined there. Nor is it the body count of mods in the sense that more mods equals tidier faster 'service'.

Are we now looking at increased mod training and defined responsibility? Will having more active mods allow for tired ones to recharge off duty knowing the gears are still being oiled?

Is it not an issue of mod involvement at all? Could it be an issue of communicating to the community as a whole how to collectively intervene when badness erupts? I've seen a good number of glitches sorted this way including my own being called to task in a very kind educational manner by Ex. This was done as a peer pointing out an issue not a mod.

On the whole the 'lith feels very self regulating. People say unclear or semi incoherent things and the community pauses and shifts its attention. In most cases the friction is resolved and things roll forward. I've witnessed this much more than the auto immune white blood cell mod dogpile being required.

What are the symptoms of the current thing we are trying to correct? Again please aid me in shaping my perceptions on this matter. What I am seeing is the departure of some long term board members, the battle fatigue of others, all of which may just be ripples from having to wrangle some serious conflicts.

The only thing, if my understanding of the situation is anywhere near the mark, required now is to offer better conflict resolution training to those who will be engaging in it in the future on behalf of the board. I believe those needing rejuvenation will find in their favorite forums the delightful conversations that have inspired their loyalty and fondness for the board.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:23 / 15.09.06
Right then. So there are basically twenty-three pages of this thread now, and I'm afraid while I'd love to plough through it all and start to get a sense of what people are proposing, it's just not practical for me to do so at the moment. Is there any chance I could encourage people to pull out the major issues into separate threads and put some of the background in place for people who've lost track of where the conversation is? At some level at the moment it seems like this thread is just too daunting for any new person (or even people with distracted attention like me) to keep a track of.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:08 / 15.09.06
More moderators, fewer moderators, more power to moderators, less power to moderators, open the board, close the board, let moderators ban people, never ban anyone...

I'll have a look at some pull quotes in a bit, T.
 
 
Tom Coates
17:37 / 15.09.06
You're a god.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
21:41 / 15.09.06
Having come a tad late to that particular party, I've restricted my contribution to the issues du jour.

I've proposed to initiate discussions on two seperate issue. Limitations on posters on an individual basis and use of a temporary locking facility on combatative heated or otherwise disruptive threads.

I feel that used properly, and preferably sparingly, these could prove useful moderator tools to ensure the relative sanctity of the safe space that is this board.

However, engaging in these discussions would basically be redundant if these tools cannot be made available in a workable and meaningful manner. So essentially the following questions stand;

a) We know that posting limitations are a possibility on Barbelith, is it possible to apply this to individual posters and if can this functionality be made accessible to the moderators?

b) We know that threads can be locked and possibly unlocked on barbelith. Is it possible that this functionality be introduced to the moderators in a manner that would allow quick or timed turn off and turn on?

As an aside, I would be virulently opposed to such measures being introduced until they had been proposed, discussed, mulled and generally chewed over thoroughly by all active moderators.

If you want to query anything on these points, I'll happily pull together the pertinent sections from the discussions although really this all hinges on the technical possibilities.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:00 / 15.09.06
I think Barbelith's just fine, really - arguably, it should be doing more to challenge conventional, bourgeois middle class authority than it is at the moment, but, on the other hand, if it wasn't for bourgeois middle class authority I wouldn't be where I am now.

It's kind of a dark place - I don't respect the rights of the so-called 'Doctors' or anything, but they have the law on their side.

When I get out of here, I suppose I'll almost have to make various chnges. But only to society as a whole.

I'm conflicted about this.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:33 / 16.09.06
It's kind of a dark place, but it might just be our last, best hope for peace.

I see faint signs for optimism, the Invisibles thread in the Temple for example. Starts off badly, everyone takes the piss, original poster apologises, explains, and then the people who were taking the piss do start helping and questioning the revised intent.

But otherwise we're conflicted as ever. For every two or three moderators that support one point of view, there's probably an equal number directly opposed. I'm not sure the locking of threads for a temporary time would work because quite often it's the moderators who would have to agree the lock who would be arguing in the thread. I've noticed that Warren Ellis's Die Puny Humans board's moderators have the ability to put people under some temporary ban where they can't post for a certain period of time but, were we to bring that in here, the problem is the moderators that would be agreeing to a mod request for this would be exactly the people arguing with that person in the first place.

I suppose my concern is that the theory/analytical fora, Head Shop, Lab, Switchboard, Art and Design and sometimes Books are almost always quiet and never have more than two or three active threads a day or even maybe a week. I don't think we need a drive for more moderators, though there's nothing stopping those who want to take part from PMing Tom, but to get more people talking. We have an insane number of people who have user ids and who aren't talking. If we went through those 5594 members and chucked out the lurkers we'd have what, about 500 members? Maybe less?

I'm at a loss as to how to proceed. But we need to find some way of making things go like that magic thread. I learnt a lot when I came here, and it helped me. Are we really to believe that nobody else is prepared to have their opinions challenged, or is it in how we respond to newbies, even if they commit the cardinal sin of not fitting in with the club from the first post?
 
 
HCE
15:35 / 16.09.06
I worry that placing the emphasis on 'our' behavior, through making changes to our system, might do three things:

1. Does it deny the agency of the newbies? Newbies can be powerful. Illusions about Barberoyalty aside, new people are not actually mere pawns with no ability to change the tone of the place or affect the emotions and behavior of others. They act; they are not merely acted upon.

2. It suggests that Barbelith is more coherent than it actually is. As Flowers points out, one of the difficulties with trying to solve problems through giving more/less/different options to the moderators is that they're not a cohesive unit by any means.

3. It seems to me to not address battle fatigue. Battle fatigue comes not only from the feeling that one's efforts are ineffective, it comes from having to keep making the same effort and addressing the same question repeatedly.

We have talked about using canned language before -- a set of stock responses to the sort of tiresome would-be challenges that we seem to get regularly. id_entity made a very tidy list someplace but I don't have a link handy at the moment. If we had a resource from which any person could draw rather than a set of special options available only to mods, do you think that might encourage people who are not ordinarily on the front lines to step in when a possible problem crops up? Might that give a bit of a breather to people who feel overworked?

Trying to think more along the lines of recycling -- if everybody does a little, nobody has to do a lot.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:18 / 16.09.06
There is always the possibility that the board has run its course, although I'm loathe to sanction that as a possibility. The obvious other alternative is to actively recruit, which I think could be far from a terrible idea. We could quite easily assemble a list of people we'd like to be on the board - even if it were types of people rather than individuals (ie. wouldn't it be good if third year undergraduates in philosophy or film theory were invited to join the board, or something) assemble lists of e-mail addresses and simply ask them to join us. That could work quite well. Bit weird, but worth considering?
 
 
Ticker
02:44 / 17.09.06
I'd rather we each go find a good new addition than shut down the board for certain. Can we nominate new members?
 
 
Olulabelle
18:42 / 17.09.06
One of my friends who was a new member has decided to stop posting. He's a philosophy and religion graduate and by Tom's criteria, an ideal sort of person for the board.

He's decided to stop posting because of the way new pople with questions have been treated. Sometimes the board reads as if there is a general assumption that new people are thick and don't know anything. Perhaps we could start by making an assumption that new people are not thick and may have just framed a question in the wrong way. Then perhaps our new members wouldn't be leaving and the silent ones might start talking.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:05 / 17.09.06
Specific examples of new people with questions being treated as thick?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:22 / 17.09.06
I've been trying to look at the board as a newbie would see it. Someone who just discovered the board this week and say, had a vague interest in magic might be concerned why lots of people are jumping on someone for the innocent suggestion of dreaming about the Invisibles or whatever it was, or might be put off by people, including me, being mean to someone in the Gathering for suggesting a meet up in NYC to go and see a concert. Of course, this is guesswork because you can't get someone who won't post to post and explain why they aren't posting.

I wonder if the intellectual rigour we like to think we possess just comes off as spite to someone on the outside?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:39 / 17.09.06
Given that new people aren't posting, and older people are leaving...

...something's gotta be wrong somewhere. Whether it's with our approach to admissions, our approach to new people, our approach to older posters, our way of dealing with unwanted material, our attitude to conflict, or even our choice of sandwich filling, something is clearly not working right at the moment.

Shouldn't be a board-breaking issue, imho. But we need to figure out what's wrong, and we need to fix it.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:40 / 17.09.06
Nnnh. Perhaps it does, but only to those incapable of seeing that nobody was mean to someone in the Gathering for suggesting a meet up in NYC to go and see a concert.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:04 / 17.09.06
Was that in answer to me or Lady?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:33 / 17.09.06
Lady - and I should be clear that "nnnh" isn't necessarily a reaction to hir post, more the hypothetical misreading detailed therein.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:06 / 17.09.06
Well, new peoplepossibly aren't posting because the admissions process is pretty much broken at this point, I think, again. Note that most of the people who have been tricksy lately have been registered for quite a while, and have often been posting infrequently for quite some time.

However, if we want to find out what new members think of the board, maybe a thread in Conversation?

D.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:15 / 17.09.06
Well, new peoplepossibly aren't posting because the admissions process is pretty much broken at this point, I think, again.

I meant "newly registered people". As in people who had actually got past the admissions process.
 
 
Tsuga
00:11 / 18.09.06
Yes, hello- "newly registered" here. I hope it's not too presumptuous to post...
Personally, I'm not dissuaded by the contention I've been reading (I've actually been reading a good bit of these policy threads) lately. But. I've only been reading this forum for a few months. It is worrisome that many of you fine people who have been here for so long and have so much invested in it feel frustrated enough that some consider "time-outs" or dropping out completely. I think it's admirable that people want to expend so much exhaustive energy in hashing out the details of what might make this a better place to commune. Just looking at it, it's got to be tiring. It seems like some burnout is the inevitable price of trying to perfect something that will never be perfect. I don't think I will try to participate in this (at least, for a long while) and I don't think I should even voice an opinion, other than to say I appreciate it, thanks for trying so fucking hard, whether or not things always work. And I'll try not to say stupid or offensive shit (hoping I'm not now). The only thing keeping me from posting, as a new member, is not feeling like I have anything relevant to add, or fear of atrophied writing skills resulting in crap posts.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:46 / 18.09.06
That seems very helpful and mature, Tsuga. I wouldn't worry too much about getting burned once or twice when you do post - a quick apology often does wonders for restoring equilibrium.

I think a degree of burn-out is not too surprising - one big question is what one does to ameliorate it or its effects, in terms of losing moderators, regular thread-starters, like that.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
12:34 / 18.09.06
Does anyone think that the low poster turn out might be due to the time of year? The summer's just winding up, so do people think that people might be partcipating less due to the social nature of summer? Also, there are a lot of Uni students here, summer means less time at the computer doing essays, so less time mooching around on the internet wasting time. So less time on Barbelith.
 
 
Ticker
13:09 / 18.09.06
Given that new people aren't posting, and older people are leaving...

...something's gotta be wrong somewhere. Whether it's with our approach to admissions, our approach to new people, our approach to older posters, our way of dealing with unwanted material, our attitude to conflict, or even our choice of sandwich filling, something is clearly not working right at the moment.

Shouldn't be a board-breaking issue, imho. But we need to figure out what's wrong, and we need to fix it.


Stoat I still believe this is a normal process. People's lives change it seems quite reasonable that some folks just want to change their focus and that may include not participating in this community for a while or any more. There are some great new posters chiming in the Temple ( I'm looking at you Elettaria ) and on the board as a whole. To my way of thinking this rotation has got to be viewed as a healthy evolution. Sure it sucks ass when our friends move away but it does allow us to be grateful when new ones arrive.

As for people afraid to post because we're too harsh that might just be about acclimation. I was nervous posting until I got the hang of it and started getting solid responses from folks. While I'm down with being friendly I do prefer the 'lith as a place that people are genuine enough that if they embrace you it's real and not just empty sunshine bullshit.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:49 / 18.09.06
The Car You See Too Late Perhaps it does, but only to those incapable of seeing that nobody was mean to someone in the Gathering for suggesting a meet up in NYC to go and see a concert.

I think we (and I chose something with which I was involved so no-one could claim I was trying to take the high ground) were mean, we were right but we expressed it badly.
 
 
Quantum
19:38 / 18.09.06
Tsuga, hello- I hope you don't mind if you use you as an example. Post! Post like the wind! If you feel you don't have anything relevent to add, post something irrelevent! Not all threads have this high standard of intellectual rigour we like to cultivate, have a look at some of the conversation threads we've had for example. If your post right there is anything to go by you'd be welcome in almost any thread, jump in! I'd say the same to any nervy posters, give it a go and see what happens. I think the first thread I started here was on Newbism in the Headshop where I pointed out that a 'new' poster might be Chomsky, or your Dad, or that Russian mathematician. It doesn't take long for people to become highly respected if they talk sense and are nice (yes xk I *am* thinking of you right now) while some people who've been posting non-stop for years seem to talk nothing but shite.

I think the people are shy to post are the very people we want to post, and from a new member's perspective a tired smackdown for unexamined racism might look the same as bullying people because they're new- god knows that happens elsewhere on the internet enough.
 
 
Tom Coates
22:17 / 18.09.06
Should it be helpful, there have been 258 distinct posters on the board in the last week, 406 in the last month. In the same period (month) last year there were 452 distinct posters on the board. So while I think it's fair to say that there's been some kind of limited decline, I don't think it's enormously alarming. I'll probably try and do some more stats around this this evening, since it's interesting.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
22:37 / 18.09.06
Quantum; that's really encouraging to hear. I'm a newly-registered member with fewer than a dozen posts to my name; all trivial.

The concern I have may or may not resonate with other newbies and that's about finding voice and balance: on the one hand, I have little experience in engaging with a community like this where what you say carries weight (or is expected to, at least) and will be examined pretty closely in the critical / analyical fora. That's right and proper and I'm comfortable waiting until I have something worth saying that I can express well before getting involved there, preferring to stay in the conversational threads for the moment. However, I don't think anyone here wants to be identified as a frivolous poster - while there's fun to be had in the Conversation (where I spent far and away the greater part of my time as a Lurker), large numbers of new guys like myself hanging out there exclusively may fractionally alter the shape of the board - something that's been mentioned upthread - while traffic in the more serious areas dwindles. And so, it's easy to see why posters would rather say nothing while they wait for the moment to shine than damage credibility in the lead-up to it. I don't think it's actually true that that's what happens but it's something you certainly see in real-life engagement and for newbies (me, anyway) it's hard to know how the format of RL interaction maps onto the board - a place where you'd like to be taken seriously; it's been often said that on Barbelith, you are your posts.

It's disheartening to read that some veteran posters feel it's time to take a break; after all, their contributions are a major part of what attracted me (us?) to the board in the first place and it would be a shame if it was an activity shift towards the Conversation that inspires it (and Tom suggesting that Barbelith may have run it's course - nooo!) but it is difficult to make the leap from willing contributor to gaining the acumen to confidently hold your own in the more sophisticaed fora. Moreso, if you haven't had too much experience with message boards or haven't actually written anything that wasn't a shopping list in years.

Anyway, blah blah ramble ramble; it's great to hear that even lightweight posting is encouraged (in the right time and place) - it gives a sense of inclusivity and encouragement when it comes to getting our shit together enough to glide over to Temple, Head Shop or Lab. It'll happen, though - the journey of a thousand miles and all that... cheers all.
 
  

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