BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Magick as maladaptive coping device

 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
 
angus
00:19 / 30.09.05
Yoicks. First, I've been gone all day taking the woman to whom I am husband to the airport and sitting in on a pledge drive at the local radio station. Otherwise, I'd have been glad to slug it out with you fine folks.
Second, I do apologize where I came across as insulting earlier - if you perceived it as such, it was, I can only plead no conscious intent.
Third, it's now clear where all the happy, balanced magicians are - they're at Barbelith! And in fact, I happily grant that you all are everything any magickian could hope to be - I believe I said in my post that I didn't meet many ceremonially inclined folks of any sort, and that perhaps I just needed to get out more.

Let me ask a slightly different question; does magick practice consistently get to the point where practical matters such as rent and health can be more or less taken for granted? That is, does magick have the potential to be substantially more useful and life enhancing than, say, a college degree? If so - and this is potentially off topic - why does it get such bad press?

I am sorry for insulting tone. I am interested in the topic - largely because i wonder if I should move from dabbler to student of the occult.

goodnight!
 
 
ghadis
01:34 / 30.09.05
I think there is a confusion, as ever, about what different people percive magic as being. Angus, you seem to be coming from the idea that magic is about making things, which may be otherwise outside your reach, happen on a solely material day to day basis. And in some ways it is. This thread is about people using the glamours and ideas of magic to shy away from such responsibilities. But I think that, if you read other peoples posts in the thread, you'll find that people feel there is a lot more to it than that and that a lot of people are quite passionate about what magic is or is not.

Magic to me is a way of approching the world and my interaction with it. It is not religious or scientific or superstitious. Maybe it's a mixture of the best bits of all three. It's a way of looking at the world where there is a possibility of a type of relationship and interaction where previously there wasn't, whether through dogmatic scientific, religious or moral (etc etc) reasons. It's a way of looking, and i realise that this is totally subjective and open to debate, and seeing the world as it really is.

I don't really know how to answer your questions really.

Does magic get to the point where rent and health doesn't matter?

Um...no...um...maybe

Does magick have the potential to be substantially more useful and life enhancing than, say, a college degree?

Um...yes

Why does it get such bad press?

Lots of reasons
 
 
Isadore
05:32 / 30.09.05
Just as an aside: there is a lot of variability in function and value just among college degrees. My SO has a baccalaureate in psychology and works at a parking garage. Mine will hopefully be a bit more useful, if I ever do manage to get it, but in the end, a degree is just a piece of paper, and if there is a common meaning hidden between all the various fields and colleges, it's that a degree wielder is certifiably able to jump through hoops.

Not the sort of thing I'd use as a benchmark for usefulness, personally, though as I said, I'm attempting to use ritual to keep me functioning enough to get one.
 
 
Quantum
14:20 / 30.09.05
That is, does magick have the potential to be substantially more useful and life enhancing than, say, a college degree?

Bad example, a college degree is about as useful as a pretty hat. Practicing Magic (rather than prancing around like a grown up Harry Potter gone darque) is all about pursuing something useful and life enhancing. I have two degrees that are completely useless and a practice that's invaluable. I make more money a week from magic than philosophy for example.
 
 
grant
14:38 / 30.09.05
Metaphysics? Sorry, off-topic, had to ask.
 
 
Quantum
16:59 / 30.09.05
What about metaphysics?
 
 
Ganesh
18:58 / 30.09.05
Thinking a little more on the similarities between magick and counselling/psychotherapy, I'd agree with whoever it was pointed out that the main difference is the presence, in the latter, of an additional human ear/perspective. To my mind, it's the absence of an external viewpoint that can lead to maladaptiveness (if that's a cromulant word). Same with self-help material: it can be used as a form of displacement activity (buying/collecting books), diverting focus from the real demons, the stuff that one really ought to be addressing...
 
 
EvskiG
19:01 / 30.09.05
That's one reason why some modern groups require members to go to a therapist as part of their magical practice.
 
 
*
20:35 / 30.09.05
Ooh, that's interesting. Appropriate, I'd say. But at the same time— in the US at least— that would seem to exacerbate the problem of certain kinds of magic (particularly as a member of certain groups) being something only economically privileged people have access to.
 
 
angus
21:30 / 30.09.05
"I make more money a week from magic than philosophy for example."

Do tell.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:46 / 01.10.05
Imagine if you will, that you hear voices, and that sometimes this causes you problems, as they become a morass of confusion and differing vantage points.

Now imagine that a spiritual/magical practice that goes by the name of mantra, is a neigh on successful treatment of this situation. let me explain.

Mantra focuses the mind on one central point, it also focuses the sensory awareness of sound on one focal point.
Slowly as mantra is learnt, voices that are heard and may be unruley are brought into the mantra, until a choir like effect is achieved, over a period of time the voices begin to unify into one sound, that of the chosen mantra.

While it can be useful to have many differing voices with many differing opinions to look at an area of knowledge for example, if control, and control is operative here, is removed from the hearer of said voices, then one way that works to restore the said control is to restore the voices internal or external to one focus point, mantra is very effective in this area especially relating to sound percieved either internally or externally, often the two have a mutual exchange of information, which can cause misperception if miscognitised.

Mantra makes an effective restoration device to one central focus, especially related to sound.

Magic as an effective adaptive strategy.

(other people i have spoken too have also made comments that drumming performs an effective centralisation of sound to there perceptions in this area, it seems that central to this is performing the drumming yourself, an awareness of the internal pace of your own conception of sound and its relationship to external sound can then be formed, also the movement of the hands in relation to the feelings within the body, generated via the sounds heard.)

Again another effective coping strategy for some people.

The relationship between sound and those that hear voices needs far more research, especially within the area of miscognition of external sound and the internal translation process. Please make me aware of knowledge if you know of some in this area.
 
 
Quantum
14:30 / 01.10.05
I make more money a week...

I read Tarot cards for people and they pay me money to do it, I blather on about Philosophy and Psychology for hours on Barbelith and don't get a penny- my degrees are my hobbies, my magic is a part time job. Which is more useful?

I'd say in fact that going to University was more of an impractical maladaptive coping device than pursuing magic.
'I belong to a special club for special people who talk about esoteric subjects you wouldn't understand, and we laugh at the muggles/sheeple/proles who are thickos, and we construct an artificial community with safety nets where we won't be challenged by the real world'. Sound similar? Frickin' students.
But like the stout, I'm not bitter.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:39 / 01.10.05
Thus far reading Tarot cards have made me more money that my studies in fucking electronics engineering, which makes me pretty sick.
 
 
angus
18:18 / 01.10.05
Well, tarot must be at least as fun as EE...

Well, okay, there's folks out there who are balanced, happy, prosperous... and magickal. Great news.

I guess a follow on question, continuing with the degree comparison, is why ISN'T magick a possible degree, why isn't it more mainstream? Not that I want it to be, but I wonder why, in every age, it's always marginal? And could this be a reason for the generally high percentage of 'maladaptives'?
 
 
ghadis
18:46 / 01.10.05
Well, i imagine a possible degree 'on' magic may be covered in a Philosophy or Comaparative Religion degree or similer. I know quite a few people who have done dissertations on magic within similer degrees. But a degree on 'how to do' magic? Doesn't really make sense. You don't get degrees on 'how to do' Christianity or Islam or Capitalism or Quakers. Degrees tend to be about studying something from an outside perspective. Magic, like Religion is a highly personal thing.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:05 / 01.10.05
Quants, good point.

Yup. And from what many people I hear speak about it say, it's also very much *experiential*, so a better comparison might be with other kinds of experiential/skills-based learning, whether that's carpentry or counselling. Workshops, discussions, gatherings of interested practioners etc.

Which in large urban centres/specific well-established areas of working, can be found, I think. So, it's comparable to many other interests in that there are some potentials for educational environments but these tend to be much less formal/recognised.

Is this accurate?

Another comparisonb (I'm obv in NME-journo-head atm. help!) that occurs to me is SM. Enormously personal/experiential for many people, but in a few places there are 'scenes' where one can meet, work with and learn from other people?

Of course, magic is Teh Darque which makes it more difficult to run/list in FE prospectuses.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:07 / 01.10.05
'nesh: you're quite right, of course, about the 'outside viewpoint' offered by therapy, but yr self-help eg is a very apt comparison. I guess I make connections between the two in very (thanks Ghadis) personal, perhaps idiosyncratic, ways.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:07 / 01.10.05
Its marginal because it isnt considered mainstream by the mainstream, but that isnt likely to remain the case, more degrees in the uk at least are inclusive of magickal/spiritual areas, and several groups have over the last 10 years appeared to foster a better understanding of magickal/spiritual awareness and scholarship.

As to it being attractive to maladaptive people, by whose standards do we define an individual maladaptive? Its a very important question to ask. It brings immediately to my mind the notion of conformity. Those who conform better to social consensually agreed standards and those who do not, non-conformists.

To a certain extent for somebody who doesnt wish to conform, appearing and perhaps to some extent being maladaptive is an effective survival strategy. In most cases a maladaptive person will be provided with shelter, food and the aid they need to survive while also supporting those who provide the aid services by creating a functioning industry. seems like a win win situation for the conformist and non conformist, unless that cycle is opened to abuse.

And if it is the case that maladaptation has its rewards within a culture, what is it that that culture fosters and why? I dont think punishment is an answer, but perhaps an investigation into the social values and educational values put forth by western institutions would reveal why magically/spirtually aware types of person have difficulty with what can largely be percieved to be a materialist christain culture. I dont think that is personally the case any longer and diversity of belief is growing in western civilisations, some find that threatening, some not. As these diverse belief structures, cultures and people of various backgrounds interbreed and intermix, I think the very idea of confroming sucessful adaptation will come into question. Just as many of the persistent older value systems will be scrutinised by successive generations.
 
 
illmatic
16:30 / 02.10.05
I just wanted to mention something that came to mind, seeing as how many people have mentioned doing stuff and practising when all is going well in their lives.

In a nutshell it's this. Magic - or any form of work on oneself (I say this as my primary focus is more akin to active yoga than spellcasting) - is exactly that, work. "Activity" might be a better word, as I think we need to step away from guilt driven, Protestant work ethic associations (whipping oneself through a demanding and unrealistic training programme with masses of guilt when the inevitable failure comes).

Anyway, it requires some kind of commitement to ACTION, whether it's watching out for a certain habit/train of thought and nipping it in the bud, committing to practising a ritual every night for a fortnight, or getting up early to practise martial arts or meditate before the daily commute* (all of which I've done, or still do). My point is that we are much, much more likely to commit to this sort of programme when we are up and full of beans, than when we're having our low periods. WIth time, I think these sort of thing can snap you out of low periods altogether, or give you a much better range of coping strategies in response to them, but that's a different subject. Obvious really, but I think it needed saying.

On a personal level re. maladaption, a conversation with Ganesh last night prompted a few interesting thoughts. I think that, in my own life, magick certainly has served as a centre of meaning, in a way that's not always been positive, it's perhaps hindered me getting on with career stuff for instance. I don't really regret this, because the satisfaction I've got now I've found what really works for me s huge, but I think I could've got on with stuffearlier in my life, certainly. Perhaps I would've down this if I wasn't interested in the occult, perhaps not.

Actually, one thing occurs on reflection, I remember recived a lot of encouragement from "occult sources" (I Ching divinations) to get on with and get stuck into my working life - I repeatedly through the hexagram "Approach" when asking about work and career matters a number of years ago. No enigma there. Pity I managed not to take the advice as solidly as I might have done at the time! Also, a series of divinations was one of the main things that made me stick out my teaching course last year, when I was finding it very difficult and challenging - advice I'm now very glad I took. So, it ain't always the magick that's maladaptive, sometimes the magic is bang on point, but I'm the one missing the boat ....

*In this sense, magick is manifestly not sitting on the bed at your mum and dad's house reading TEH DARK MATERIALS and deluding yourself you're dealing the dark side. What's the fucking challenge there?

(edited for clarity 3/10/05)
 
 
angus
16:39 / 02.10.05
You don't get degrees on 'how to do' Christianity or Islam or Capitalism or Quakers.

Of course you do... at seminaries and stuff. And the MBA is the DD of Capitalism. (interesting list choices, btw)

I guess I was thinking that magick has to be non-mainstream to even function. Christianity, for example, used to be the shit in terms of real world action - if we are to believe the gospels - but the only place that healing, snake handling etc. are now seen is in the subversive, weird, non-mainstream churches. Power comes from being on the fringe. If there ever is a DM (Doctor of Magick) the magickian seeking real power will have to move on to something weirder yet.

Maybe attracting maladaptives are a good sign - a sign that your path is still weird enough to hold power.
 
 
ghadis
17:30 / 02.10.05
'You don't get degrees on 'how to do' Christianity or Islam or Capitalism or Quakers.

Of course you do... at seminaries and stuff. And the MBA is the DD of Capitalism. (interesting list choices, btw)'

You're quite right angus. That was a badly thought out and rushed post on my behalf.
 
 
*
00:34 / 03.10.05
Well, that begs the question of why liminality and marginality are seen as the loci of power. Here's what my mid-20th c. Anthropologist says about that: Perhaps it's because humans are socially and psychologically deeply neurotic. We live in imperfectly constructed social orders, and, discontent with them but fearing the unknown, we privilege anything our social orders don't explain or categorize as "powerful" and "dangerous." Some of us will be drawn to that power and danger, and will attempt to systematize it in order to control it. Now whether that's a maladaptive coping mechanism or not depends on how well it works, of course. But it could be argued that it is less adaptive from a social systems perspective than, say, making changes in the existing social structure so that it will be more equipped to deal with the things it doesn't deal with so well.

This is somewhat of a tangent from Ganesh's individual psychological perspective, however. And I'm not sure I buy any of it, myself.
 
 
Seth
09:58 / 03.10.05
but the only place that healing, snake handling etc. are now seen is in the subversive, weird, non-mainstream churches

Apart from as recently as the mid nineties when a lot of larger churches started going bugfuck.
 
 
Quantum
13:26 / 03.10.05
You can get academic qualifications in the study of magic (sociology/psychology/anthropology), you can get qualifications in homeopathy, acupuncture and aromatherapy, you can study astrology and the I-Ching and Tarot...
Magic is a field, not a subject. Why isn't it taught in school? Because people don't believe in it. Although they'll force creationism on children.

What would a degree in magic look like? Would it be more or less useful than a degree in Literary Theory?

Personally I'd like an NVQ in Gnosticism and a GNVQ in Shamanism please. And a modern apprenticeship with an alchemist.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:22 / 03.10.05
"*In this sense, magick is manifestly not sitting on the bed at your mum and dad's house reading TEH DARK MATERIALS and deluding yourself you're dealing the dark side. What's the fucking challenge there?"

The challenge here is to go give them to one of my local charity shops so i can buy them for £1 each and then sell them on ebay.(or read them and give them to the library, so i can spread the darq side, que evil laughter.)
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:30 / 03.10.05
"On a personal level re. maladaption, a conversation with Ganesh last night prompted a few interesting thoughts. I think that, in my own life, magick certainly has served as a centre of meaning, in a way that's not always been positive, it's perhaps hindered me getting on with career stuff for instance. I don't really regret this, because the satisfaction I've got now I've found what really works for me s huge, but I think I could've got on with stuffearlier in my life, certainly. Perhaps I would've down this if I wasn't interested in the occult, perhaps not."

When i think about this kind of thing, i thing to myself, what led me to this situation i am in now, doing what i enjoy, ah it was all that shit,darq an all, that got me here without all those little and huge fuck ups where would i be, somewhere else doing something else. you learn from it and move on, but you have to fuck up first to get the learning, its all useful, and it means you become really good at spotting it in others and trying to help them. Seems to be part of the course if your gonna try to help others, first off you have to know some of what its like to suffer. Then its time to move on until..... heh.
 
 
angus
19:12 / 03.10.05
Responding to firefly fancier:

As to why marginality is a source of power, my spur of the moment theory is that magickians work in a space that somewhat approximates Chardin's 'noosphere' - the sphere of human thoughts/memes/ideas - and causing a shock in that sphere yields power that can be used, somewhat like using geothermal power to generate electricity.

Hasn't taboo long been a staple of magickal practice? E.g. Crowley's magickal grades progressing from onanism to homosexual anal penetration - each grade more offensive to social mores than the last?

Which is why magick will always be viewed as maladaptive by society, and will always attract maladaptives, ecentrics and the brilliant - but rarely the merely mediocre.

Hey, it's just a theory.
 
 
Ganesh
19:43 / 03.10.05
Which is why magick will always be viewed as maladaptive by society, and will always attract maladaptives, ecentrics and the brilliant - but rarely the merely mediocre.

Like you say, it's a theory. In practice, it seems to me that many, many mediocre people are attracted to (the trappings of) magick, largely because they buy uncritically into that theory ("As a magician, I am eccentric and brilliant - even though the rest of sheeple society views me as maladaptive"). Also, when I say "maladaptive", I'm talking about individual measures of non-adaptiveness - low self-esteem, poor social skills, subjective unhappiness/dissatisfaction - as much as societal ones.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:45 / 03.10.05
I think the reasons why magic seems to happen on the edge of things, in this liminal space, are complex.

What I feel is that magic happens between, as it were: neither in nor out. You need to have a hotline to spoookayspace--but also you need to be rooted firmly in this world for change to occur. Both inside and outside.

I suspect that's why 'transgressive' practices for magicians and diviners of all stripes seem to be a recurring theme across all cultures and all times, from various flavours of sacred whore, holy fool and divine pervert to the Catholic priest who by his (well, supposed) abstention from the pleasures of the flesh transgresses another norm. There's often both a loss and a gain of status: you're never going to be entirely a part of your community--but then you'll never be apart, either. Your hut may be on the edge of the village, but it's still a part of the village. (Otherwise, what are you really doing? Playing with your imaginary friends?)

In short, I think the social transgressions mentioned above are a way of evoking the liminal space in which magic occurs and in which the magician must dwell: half-in, half-out.

Buncha village idiots, us.
 
 
angus
21:16 / 03.10.05
Like you say, it's a theory. In practice, it seems to me that many, many mediocre people are attracted to (the trappings of) magick

Well, yeah. So much for that theory.

Mordant, you would probably like The Spell of the Sensuous by David Abrams, if you haven't read it already. Your comment about the 'edge of the village' made me think of it. Among many, many mind blowing things, Abrams talks about traditional shamans, and why they tend to live on village peripheries. It was a conscious striving to be in a liminal space.
 
 
*
07:33 / 04.10.05
I was thinking that marginal and liminal practices are sometimes linked with social maladaptiveness, but I wonder if there's not something to link them with individual maladaptiveness as well.

Living in a marginal position brings with it a significant amount of psychological stress, clearly. That a marginal position is chosen (such as for the okkult rewards of repudiating mundayne society or whatever) doesn't really lessen the resulting stress very much. On the other hand, a person who lives in a marginal position because of some pre-existing stressors, such as a tendency towards depression— might that person not be drawn to some device which appears to give some agency over their situation? Again, whether that device produces positive or negative results for the individual will decide whether it is adaptive or maladaptive in that instance. I'm not sure what factors influence what the results will be, but I expect that at least one factor is whether a person decides to begin magical practice from a position of strength or a position of weakness. I feel that magical practice can easily exaggerate a person's flaws and fortes; at least, this has been my experience. And someone cultivating faith in magical practice (as is necessary to some degree or another for success, or at least we hatters claim it is) can easily squash any critical examination of results as a form of (undesirable) doubt. That could lead to flaws being exaggerated because any change which occurs due to magic would be assumed to be beneficial.

Does this make any sense? Sorry, 'nesh, I'm not a psych person, so I'm not well trained in thinking this way.
 
 
Ganesh
07:41 / 04.10.05
Yes, it makes sense. I was thinking particularly of magick exaggerating social flaws which make the individual concerned quite unhappy (feeling disconnected from or overlooked by other people, and wishing this weren't so, failing to mature sufficiently to live independently from one's parents) and which would likely be better addressed through more direct means - but, instead, facilitating avoidance.
 
 
Unconditional Love
08:38 / 04.10.05
Doesnt there come a point, when if the parents have any notion of not hiding there children away from reality they will take it on themselves to kick the hide away child out, not that i was a hide away child by that point more like a social monster, then a recovering social monster, just a fucking handful i guess, passed from one parent to the next. but anyway the onus is on the parents to help there child mature as much as it is on the young adult and society to provide facilitation for that process.

Isnt it the case that people are staying home for longer periods due to housing prices, work issues etc etc, i heard of some such report to that effect, to me that says society isnt facilitating that situation, which isnt helpful. Society though can become a surrogate parent in some respects if not careful, but i think that serves its purpose to help people adapt to a new situation.

It actually took me a longtime to come out from my parents wing and get my own place, and the irony for me is being socially maladaptive, put me to the top of my housing list and got me a place very quickly.
 
 
Ganesh
09:34 / 04.10.05
... if the parents have any notion of not hiding there children away from reality...

Not infrequently, this would seem to be the problematic bit of that sentence.

There're often additional parental/societal pressures not to leave home, yes. My point is, being TEH DARQQE MAGUS can serve as a distractor from ever seriously confronting the issue.

I suspect you must've had a little more on your file than "socially maladaptive", Wolfangel. Either that or a freakishly understanding local housing department...
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:06 / 04.10.05
Yes alot more, but my point is, It feels like a reward for falling to the bottom of the pile so to speak. As if there exsists a culture that celebrates malfunction.As if reliance on society is deemed agreeable, the more your reliant on social services, the more it pays you.

Not that there shouldnt be a safety net, there most definately should be for people who become ill or fall, but if its so comfortable that staying in the net seems like a good option, then society does in a sense become a replacement set of parents. After having made the step to leave them, the transition from family to society to independent socialisation needs to be fully formulated in the educational environment, which unfortubnately in my education it wasnt. I was streamed to get a manual job, marry and be happy with eastenders, its these very things which made me ill through the shear and deadly boredom they induce, from not conforming ive had the chance to self educate, read extensively, paint, write poetry, be in bands, be a drunk and a junkie, go to college, onto university, have an nde, shag around extensively.

Its only when i made the effort to be more adaptive and normalised, changed my dress, changed my consumption habits, Got a boring job and tried to grow up, that i actually became diagnosed with various illnesses. It really makes me wonder.

But, i wouldnt go back to being an alcoholic or junkie. If anything it seems there needs to be a balance between allowable irresponsibility and responsibility, having had to abstain and having been a total addict, iam coming to the opinion that neither taken to an extreme is functional. Its my opinion that the maladaptive and adaptive character traits both have there places as functional approaches to a disparate culture. Take total conformity to an extreme and it can become an illness, take non conformity to the opposite extreme and it also can become an illness.

Learning to juggle.
 
  

Page: 12(3)45

 
  
Add Your Reply