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Psychic Vampires- A Good or a Bad Thing?

 
  

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daynah
23:05 / 08.09.05
How, then, does 'psychic vampirism' differ from whining at, annoying or exhausting people? And is leaching someone's 'psychic energy' fundamentally different from wearing away at their store of patience? And how does 'ambient feeding' differ from what we non-vampires term 'having a good time'?

To accept the existance of something that drains energy, you have to accept that energy exists. If you don't personally believe that it exists, that's fine.

I personally believe patience is a sort of energy (I believe there are different types).

We often reconcile the "having a good time" by reverting back to the fact that the physical ailments are gone. That's also not the only way we feed, though.

But, fact is, we could be crazy.

Fact is, you could be crazy, too.

Who here believes in tarot? Who here believes in energy in the first place? Who here believes in auras? Spirits? Gods?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:05 / 08.09.05
(Thanks for taking the time to offer us an alternate perspective BTW. I'm very skeptical about the whole thing but I'm aware that you're probably feeling pretty put upon right now, and you're responding in a polite and reasonable manner rather than spamming the board with complaints about teh eval natzy mods.)

Yes, those seem far more like instances of metaphorical "feeding" rather than an actual energy process (like the sort of thing described in the Codex*)?



*Which I've actually read now... Gordon Bennett... I don't know where to start.
 
 
daynah
23:08 / 08.09.05
Aah, the Codex. The Codex is a treat. I suggest you put the Codex down. The Codex is more about being a psychic, and Michelle showing off her poetic writing to gain money in classic American style, than it is about vampires.

But that's my personal opinion.

There is no one vampire book. Just... take whatever morsel of vampire information from a vampire who doesn't sound like a fruit and try to reason it into your thinking.

And I'm very happy to participate. I only wish I could have replied sooner.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:15 / 08.09.05
Who here believes in tarot?

I'll cop to that one. I believe in Tarot... no, wait a minute, I know tarot cards work, which is a bit different than belief. I've seen them in action. I've had experiences that bear out Tarot as a viable medium for divination.

Energy...? Meh, still not sure about that one. I know Reiki does something, but exactly how it works is a mystery to me and will probably always remain so.

As for spirits and Gods, yep, hard (or at least reasonably firm) polytheist over here... but again, I've had direct personal experiences which would seem to confirm the existance of both spirits and Gods.

Of course, I don't expect anyone else to share those beliefs unless they have had similar experiences. I always try to keep in mind the fact that I'm possibly deluding myself, and allow for the fact that to the vast majority of people, I'm going to look a bit of a fool.
 
 
daynah
23:19 / 08.09.05
After rereading your post, I think I may have watered down my explination a bit too much for you.

This is all what I believe and what I'm putting together from all the buddhist and psychic and vampire workshops I've put together. They're biased.

Everything you do... is energy based. Everytime you talk to someone... your energy body connects with them on a very subtle level. If you're trying to you can really connect with them. But with normal people those conversations are, to use the clique, like a tennis court. You send just as much energy their way as they send your way.

You have verbal language, you have body language, and you have energy language. It's... "chemistry", it's how much "patience" you have with that particular person.

With vampires, if they have not practiced stopping this process, they will take more than they send out. You will get a little tired around them. Even draining a lot, you would not get that tired. You will lose energy, though, simply conversing with them. Or dance with them. Or... I don't know, what's another activity. Anyway.

So vampires intentionally have to train their energy working not to do that because it is rude and unethical to take so much from one person.

After they take so much from one person they get extremely hyper. Not because they have an excess of energy, but because of the highs and lows of the process.

It is a very energetic process. Depending on what chakra you use, you can feel it. I always feel it in my heart chakra, because that is the only one I use. It's.... very detrimental to my health to use one, but I do it anyway. To teach the youngin's, we often say, to send out like a tenticle and try to suck through it like a straw.

So... I may have explained it so it sounded metaphorical, but I did not mean to. In the process of making it sound less "hippy" it may have come out that way.
 
 
daynah
23:32 / 08.09.05
"I know tarot cards work, ...I've seen them in action. ...I don't expect anyone else to share those beliefs unless they have had similar experiences. I always try to keep in mind the fact that I'm possibly deluding myself, and allow for the fact that to the vast majority of people, I'm going to look a bit of a fool. "

And that is generally how the vampire community feels. If you find a vampire who says you have to believe in it... then give them a frowny face, shake your head side to side and show the big thumbs down (way more insulting than flicking them off) and just walk away. Nobody cares.

I know in my heart it's real. I've been drained. I've had my chest chakra so damaged that I've gotten palpitations and been weakened and been unable to walk ten feet. I keep myself consistant on ambient energy from like classrooms and such that I don't feel the need as much, so sometimes I wake up and wonder if it is a delusion. All I have to do is... stop. I don't talk about anything vampiric. I hide all my books and favorites from myself. I don't do anything about it for three months and see if it comes back. It always does. I always get sick. And then I go... "Daynah, you suck. You knew that was going to happen."

But... if someone twenty years from now said, "Actually we've proven it with a much better way than you're retarted method." (and my method is retarded, but there's not much better one can do about it) I'd be like, "Well darn. I made a fool of myself in front of a few message boards. At least I put up a good argument."

You see those things... exactly how the vampires see our condition. I cannot think of a better way to say that except for be even more wordy than I already am.
 
 
Ganesh
23:33 / 08.09.05
To accept the existance of something that drains energy, you have to accept that energy exists. If you don't personally believe that it exists, that's fine.

I'd be foolish to disbelieve the existence of energy: heat, electrical, kinetic, etc., etc. I often have difficulty with the concept of "energy" in this particular context, because it's ill-defined, hard to quantify, and I can't really see a good reason to frame it in pseudo-scientific terms distinct from the more apparently mundane components of a person-person emotional interaction.

I personally believe patience is a sort of energy (I believe there are different types).

I believe it's an abstract emotional entity that's subjectively perceived as finite.

We often reconcile the "having a good time" by reverting back to the fact that the physical ailments are gone. That's also not the only way we feed, though.

"Physical ailments", depending on their precise nature, tend to wax and wane in different situations - distraction, endorphins, adrenaline all playing a part. I can walk into a club and feel gladdened or excited by the 'vibe' (to the extent that such discomfort as I might term "physical ailment" temporarily lessens or disappears) without convincing myself I'm leaching small amounts of energy from other club-goers. I'm curious as to why 'psychic vampires' choose to conceptualise their experience of life in terms of an energy transaction. I mean, there's no reason why they shouldn't, but I wonder what motivates them toward this particular way of viewing the world.

I suspect I'm jaundiced by meeting individuals at the extreme end of that worldview, whose 'psychic vampirism' appeared, to me, to be a way of rationalising their emotional/social neediness without losing self-esteem. Buying into the idea that they're some sort of supernatural predator (who could exercise sufficient power to drain people dry, but solemnly swear to Use The Force Only For Good) is sexier than contemplating the possibility that they simply irritate/alienate people with their personality.

But, fact is, we could be crazy.

Fact is, you could be crazy, too.


Sure, but I don't think it's about 'craziness'. I think it's often about building a sexy, powerful, romantic self-image on frequently-shaky foundations.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:37 / 08.09.05
it is rude and unethical to take so much from one person.

Uuuh... Assuming for the sake of argument that anything is actually being taken from anyone... isn't the whole thing unethical?
 
 
macrophage
23:37 / 08.09.05
If by saying that the process of interaction with others can get termed a form of "draining," this paints an obscure and abstract view of how we interact with others socially or within packs or tribes.

I've went down this road before where I have decided that so and so seems a psychic vampire because they do drain me and also they shift all their aura of doom and gloom onto you as an individual.

I have never met anyone who even confessee to the role of a vampire at all. Obviously I am not at one with the in-crowd at all. I have taken part in bloodplay but that's personal and sex-related with my ex's.

You can get energy and sanguine vampires, how about time vampires - like the call centre people who will phone you up to steal your time or like door-to-door sales personell that attempt not only to steal your time but steal your money and therefore your fiscal energies?

I must admit I find it all quite alluring if they weren't all stereotyped as Goths.

I work with Tarot sometimes and yes your cards do have energies as does everything that can come under the headings of your Magickal Tools. Some cards vibrate more, this sounds silly, but when I got my set what struck me is that the Death and the Towers cards seem to have a guttural sub-sonics to them. Hmm, wrong words again. The more you use your tools the more power they can show.

I must admit I find blood vampirism a bit of a turn on, and I even know where I get it from, early "Dracula" BBC French 1970's series, and my Aunty giving me Tomato Soup. Whoah, now that is giving too much info away. Nothing short of total thought crime.

I don't know about psychic vampirism I can't believe I've ever practised that.
 
 
Ganesh
23:47 / 08.09.05
Whoah, now that is giving too much info away.

Bwahahahahahhh, we are teh information vampires!
 
 
daynah
23:54 / 08.09.05
"Buying into the idea that they're some sort of supernatural predator (who could exercise sufficient power to drain people dry, but solemnly swear to Use The Force Only For Good) is sexier than contemplating the possibility that they simply irritate/alienate people with their personality. ...I think it's often about building a sexy, powerful, romantic self-image on frequently-shaky foundations."

Please. Read my first post. I already addressed that.

I'll pull out what it said simply because I'm knew, you're not, and I'd like to brown nose a bit.

Review from Daynah's first post

First, Daynah covered other types of vampires (NOT psychic types of vampires), that are BASED on the romantic notion of vampires from books, movies, and roleplaying games.

Then, she explained how psychic vampires got the term of vampire in the first place. The community did not give itself the term. (Put on your energy exists and people drain it caps) All through time, there have been the existance of people draining other people's energy. The people who must do this as a permanent condition are the people we are currently addressing. During the 1930s, Dion Fortune publishes Psychic Self Defense. Zhe did not like these people who drained the existance of others and wanted to give them a label with a negative conotation to try to get others also to hate them. Thus, the label of "vampire" was started.

Then, Daynah admitted that it could all be a delusion. This is a tactic of arguing that is supposed to foster friendly ties, Ganesh. Friends? Cookies? Yum.

Then, now here's the big one...

Daynah went through an abridged list of things that are unacceptable in the vampire community, including stereotypes from books, movies, and roleplaying.

We hate books, movies, and roleplaying... and New Orleans for that matter. What's that song? Never know what you love until it's gone or something like that?

Please, go back to my post on page one near the bottom and look through. Those are some other groups of people that call themselves "vampires." They're different that psychic vampires. Just like a Nestle Chocolate bar is different than the powdered hot chocolate packets. They... have chocolate in the name. But... they're very different.

The unfortunate thing is, in a way, you're right. A lot of these other vampire groups are... trying to fit into the psychic vampire community. It makes them feel cool. Generally because they don't have any friends at school. Because they're black nail polish is chipping and they didn't want to take a shower that night because they didn't want to leave their room. It makes them look too productive.

They say they're psychic vampires. And they make websites. But they aren't really... accepted into the community. No one really wants them. Some just ignore them. Some are nice and try to help them find where they belong (there are good websites for vampire fetishists and such). People like me bitch and them and are working with bigger vampire leaders to try to formulate some plan to make it harder for them to be noticed.

They look like they're part of the community from you're vantage point but I promise you that at the most, they pop in for six months at the trashiest of message boards, never meet a soul, and then leave when the newness wears out. "Real" Psychic vampirism isn't something that just goes away after six months. It stays with you. They were faking it because they wanted somewhere to belong.
 
 
daynah
00:07 / 09.09.05
"I have never met anyone who even confessee to the role of a vampire at all. Obviously I am not at one with the in-crowd at all. I have taken part in bloodplay but that's personal and sex-related with my ex's. "

I generally don't go up to people and tell them I'm a vampire. I really only do that on fairly anonymous places. Basically, you don't know any of my teachers, bosses, or anyone who I don't want thinking I'm a crazy. If someone were to say "I'm a psychic vampire." aloud, someone may overhear. If it's someone you know in real life... a accidental gossip trail may ensue. It's not that you're not in with the in crowd... my boyfriend doesn't know yet.

And about how you see tarot? I do tarot. I don't see it like that at all. But that's okay. Perfectly fine. Life goes on. Tarot works the same for me whether I think it's because there's energy in the cards (which I don't) or because I think they help me visually see my subconcious (which I do). You guys don't believe in vampires. Fine with us. We keep doing the same thing.

And yes, we're stereotyped as goths. I'm not. I dye my hair red, like Jean Grey, not black, like Wednesday. I do all my homework out in the sun in between classes in some vain attempt to get tan but every melatonin in my body is against me. I exercise. I listen to fairly J-pop. I went to college two years early. The last thing I'm doing is sitting in my room cutting myself while I'm failing all my classes.

I do not own a pair of fangs. I'm against wearing black, because it was too 1990s and it's 2000s now, and we need to move past the black. Black eyeliner makes people look old, so we need to wear white eyeliner or colored eyeliner to contrast against your hair or eye color.

I'm not a goth. Most psychic vampires (minus the ones who pop in for six months and leave, so weren't psychic vampires in the first place) aren't goths. They tend to be 1990 slobs with no style but not goths, or punks, or anything like that.

And... you peoples type way too fast for me. This is not a message board but a chat room! Ha!
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
02:15 / 09.09.05
I think it comes down to "vampire" being a misnomer. There's just too much stuff using the word "vampire" (yeah, I'm a LARPer, yes I DO play Vampire...no I don't think I am one, that would be exceptionally silly), which results in a lot of the more serious aspects that Daynah has brought up being lost in the noise.

Personally, I believe in energy. I believe that it can be channeled, removed, put back in, restored, etc. I don't know anything about Reiki, all the energy work I've done has been instinctual. But, with that being said, I've brought a friend out of hypoglycemic shakes with it, so yeah...I'm pretty much convinced that its there. That same friend also happened to wreck his energy in some sort of botched ritual (literally burned himself out for a while).

Now, Daynah, I have a question, and its answer may well be buried in the posts above.

Do you feel that psychic vampirism is a spiritual condition you are born with/acquire later on (as in: is it innate?) or is it something that people begin to unconsciously or consciously practice later on? Is there a natural energy deficiency that instinctual training allows for a person to find a way around? I'm quite curious in that regard.

I apologize of that question is rude or intrusive. But its something that I'm honestly curious about.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:00 / 09.09.05
I think my main question is why? Why do you operate in this way? What do you get out of it? What does it do for you? How does it make you happy? How does it make your life better?

You seem to suggest above that this is an affliction of sorts:

All I have to do is... stop. I don't talk about anything vampiric. I hide all my books and favorites from myself. I don't do anything about it for three months and see if it comes back. It always does. I always get sick.

Which seems to suggest that the "energy vampirism" you practice is basically a mechanism for redressing a perceived internal imbalance within yourself. Is that right? If you don't do this stuff, you feel ill; and when you do this stuff, it makes you feel better.

I'm very sceptical of the energy model to begin with, but for the purposes of this conversation, I'll go with it (usual disclaimers around the term apply).

Perhaps there's something I'm missing, but certainly from a magical perspective, vampirism looks like a fairly shit method of engaging with the perceived circumstances you seem to be describing above. If, for the sake of argument, we accept that there is such a thing as an unquantifiable energy that permeates everything (chi, prana, orgone, whatever...) and this substance is what you vampirise from other people, then surely all you're doing is limiting your method of intake with the belief that this must be taken from other human beings in a vampiric sense?

If you look at the way this "energy" is considered in practically every culture and tradition where it occurs, you will find a few points of commonality. Chief among them being the sense that it permeates everything in the universe. It's the principle driver of life. It moves through our bodies, through the ocean, through the stars, through the trees, through the earth we walk on, the sun that warms us, the ants crawling below, the air we breathe.

We often tend to think of it as a finite resource that we keep in our bodies, like we're little sentient batteries filled with limited reserves of juice. The vampire model seems to posit that the only valid method of recharging ourselves is to leach off other little batteries that we might come across in nightclubs and bars, as opposed to learning how to connect up to the source. The big divine battery re-charger that is all around us and is the Universe.

To limit your source of intake to unsolicited leaching off other people around you, most of whom probably have as tough a time maintaining and replenishing their own reserves of "energy" as any of us, is a fairly tawdry and squalid way of operating. If you need to replenish and invigorate yourself with "energy", why drain a tiny bit of second hand juice from Lucy Stubbs, chartered accountant and disco dancer, when you can receive a pure current from the Universe that is limited only by your current ability to open yourself to it and let it into your heart. What gives?

There is a vast repertoire of techniques and exercises for accessing "energy" to be found within the magical and religious traditions of this planet. I would like to think that you have experimented with every one of these - extensively, over a period of many years - and found them all lacking, before you came to the conclusion that psychic vampirism was the only way of dealing with the phenomena of "energy deficiency" that you describe. Otherwise, despite your arguments to the contrary, I can only assume that you actually do just like the mystique and dubious sense of empowerment that you get by pretending that you are a vampire. Which makes it pretty much a fashion and lifestyle choice that tends to impact negatively on other human beings - not a tragic affliction that you have no control over.

I mean, if you were to try observing, say, Liber Resh and the Middle Pillar exercise every day along with an hours worth of Tai Chi and Chi Kung on a morning - you are not going to have a problem with "energy" deficiency. And it will be the pure uncut stuff, direct from source, not leached out of another person. Have you tried anything other than vampirism to address this situation?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:17 / 09.09.05
Yeah... I've always thought that the idea of taking energy from other people (assuming for the sake of agument that said "energy" even exists ect ect) was not just totally unethical but more than slightly gross. Seen through the lens of the energy model, the average punter looks a bit like a sammidge someone's had half of and left out for the ants: not much to chew on and you don't know where they've been...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:14 / 09.09.05
And even before you get onto the Tai-Chi, there's things like diet. Not one of these people who tries to live on half a nonfat yoghurt and a vitamin pill a day, are you?

I feel a bit bad for daynah right now; she's obviously still pretty young and not very experienced yet. Most of us went through a phase of buying into stuff that later proved desperately flawed (usually the fluff-Wicca-is-the-the-one-true-Craefte thing). Trouble is, because one tends to end up around people who believe the same kind of thing as you, that's all you ever see. You can end up going for a long time without having your model challenged, except by people who come at it from a perspective of extreme scepticism: "Lolz yr stoopid magiks not rael haha!!," instead of being offered alternate approaches.

daynah, we're not harshing on you because you're different. It's just that most of us have encountered, thouroughly considered and ultimately dismissed the "psychic vampire" model any number of times, for precisely those reasons stated above. Have a good old shufti round this forum, see what you can find out. Thre's some pretty darn clued-up people posting here (along with the odd wally, and plenty of halfbaked dabblers like me).
 
 
Anthony
11:25 / 09.09.05
still; no-one can take energy from us without our agreement at some level, to have our energy taken from us. I'm sure Don Juan would agree with that. Our own reactions in some part must co-create the phenomenon of the psychic vampire.
if we feel drained and exhausted around them, then we should own the fact that these are our reactions to the circumstances & that equally we could have chosen a different reaction.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:37 / 09.09.05
A good thing, in answer to the initial question.

keep evolving and dont get stuck in the rotting corpse of a tradition. The more each generation defines spirituality in there own terms the better. Some things need to be reduced to ash. The more alienating it is for older generations the better. Especially a so called magickal community that can no longer except change, unless that change occurs within its definition of boundaries, wanting to stamp the authority of itself over that which is beginning to seed. Wanting to be considered authentic desperately and politically correct.

If magick and the associated beliefs become undistinguishable to me as a thirty something who grew up on chaos magic so much the better. if it leaps back to the traditions its dead, gone and forttten caught up walking in circles of history. its feeding and leeching on corpses, swallowing dust as food.

Keep creating new magickal identities until the generations coming define themselves and dont stamp on what you are or they will be.

Ive done it in this forum and have learnt to regret it not only has it been an experience of self denial but its also been in my view an offense to the traditions ive tried to belong too.

Keep redifineing, keep destroying boundaries, let no one limit you or define whats magical for you. How you can live who you should be how you can think.

As one generation pushes down on another so that generation begins to push on those generations coming through, its a tired old circle in all areas. Time for it it to burn.

Goodbye.
 
 
daynah
11:38 / 09.09.05
I think it comes down to "vampire" being a misnomer. There's just too much stuff using the word "vampire" (yeah, I'm a LARPer, yes I DO play Vampire...no I don't think I am one, that would be exceptionally silly), which results in a lot of the more serious aspects that Daynah has brought up being lost in the noise.

I'd like to kiss you. The instant we can move past that, the instant we can delve into the more deeper issues you and Gypsy brought up.

Do you feel that psychic vampirism is a spiritual condition you are born with/acquire later on (as in: is it innate?) or is it something that people begin to unconsciously or consciously practice later on? Is there a natural energy deficiency that instinctual training allows for a person to find a way around?

Please remember that all of my answers I do mean to represent the community... minus all of the people who are actually a different kind of vampire. Yes, in general, the psychic vampire community believes that it is something we are born with. Often times, we believe that it's something we're born with but doesn't develop or show up till later. Like... you're born male but things don't really start happening till puberty.

And vampires who do not get structured training can still get more energy... it's just extremely inefficient, and unethical. Anyone in energy working, not just a vampire, as you know, could sit in a corner and drain someone's energy. A vampire who has not been trained knows instinctively that when they whine or attract attention or do whatever it is they do, they feel a bit better afterwards.

I think my main question is why? Why do you operate in this way? What do you get out of it? What does it do for you? How does it make you happy? How does it make your life better? ...You seem to suggest above that this is an affliction of sorts:

You're right. Vampires tend to treat it like an affliction. We don't want to operate in this way. And what I described about trying to push away any thoughts about vampirism and see if I still get the symptoms? That's a common "test" for ourselves for some metaphysical hypocondria or, like M*rdant pushed his view of me up, "phase of buying into stuff that later proved desperately flawed."

Keeping within our belief system, we do make efforts to check for those situations. More effort is made at the beginning and slowly as you stay in the community, you check less frequently. Then eventually you sigh and accept it. Being a vampire does not make our life better or happier. But knowing about it and being able to accept it and having it "diagnosed" does.

M*rdant, darling, this is not a phase for me. Many vampires use me as proof for their theory that vampirism is genetic (though I don't buy that horse-dung) because my grandfather was a vampire. He never called it that growing up. My parents weren't, no one else in my family was. In energy working, we believe that we can feel such things on other people, and he felt it on me and taught me energy working without calling it that. I was in a metaphysical school in the middle of church.

Like I said before, you're born a vampire, but it tends to cause problems later on. The instant it started causing problems, I knew about it because I was already "in tune" with my energy self and what not. I knew I was constantly at some kind of lower energy level and that it was affecting me physically and that I needed to fix it.

If you want to look at it from a really energy point of view, most vampires have a chakra that is not working for some reason. Or it's not there. Or it's collapsed upon itself.

The vampire model seems to posit that the only valid method of recharging ourselves is to leach off other little batteries that we might come across in nightclubs and bars

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry I brought up that example. I felt it was the easiest to understand, but it's not the most common. The most common tends to be... walking down the road. Many people get energy from other things... like trees and and the elements and the plants. Me?

I don't believe that that's... right. That's just me. Somethings, in fact, I don't think the energy is the type you can take from. Like air. I... don't think you can get energy from air (sort of like I don't think tarot has energy). The energy that is in a table, I believe, is completely unimportant. And... all the effort that it would take for me to get that tiny bit of energy out would negate the purpose.

Humans are easy to get energy out of. I had a boyfriend I loved very much and for the longest time, he was the only person I fed off of and he knew it. He was just an abundance of energy, always overflowing. There are lots of people like this.

And, for the record, I do do Tai Chi, but not Chi Kung or Middle Pillar. I also have never heard of Liber Resh, pardon my ignorance. I also meditate every morning. There are certain energies that vampires can never be deficit of, like metta, loving-kindness energy. And I chant through the metta sutta and do a meditation on that every morning specifically because I know that and specifically because I want to send loving kindness to every one on this board.

Whether or not you think I'm tragically young, am possessed by a fad, and have no intelligence of my own but simply that of the gothic borg.

Ah, and last note... the opinion that energy work is gross makes perfect sense. "Draining" someone of energy is commonly paralleled to having sex. Which is quite gross. You're taking someone's most vital body... stuffs and integrating it with your own and who knows where that person's stuff is. Crazy people, in fact, may make you feel funny. Happy people are like a drug that get you addicted to them. People with any sort of disease (thinking about Reiki?) simply are disgusting, no matter what form of disease. The hospital or an old folks home is an awful place for an energy sensitive person to go to.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:41 / 09.09.05
no-one can take energy from us without our agreement at some level

A bit of a sweeping statement that, don't you think? You could condone an awful lot of despicable and vile human behaviour by shifting the responsibility onto the victim who "at some level" allowed the abuse to happen. Where does that line of thinking end, exactly? Care to back up your statement with more than the presumed agreement of a fictional device invented by a discredited anthropologist?
 
 
daynah
11:44 / 09.09.05
Anth, I believe that. I think it's unconciously agreed.

Wolfangel (Now Over and Out),

But, the question is, am I the one putting myself in a model of a vampire?

-Not dressing up like one.
-Not drinking blood.
-Having called myself a vampire until I found it would be helpful for communication with other people that have the same issues.

Ooor are others of the occult community stuck in the old 1930s rut of Dion Fortune that any energy taking people, even if they feel they need it (even if it turns out psychological, see my first post), and do it ethically, should be labeled and hated by the community at large?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:20 / 09.09.05
About Liber Resh (from Thelemapedia)

Liber Resh at sacredtexts.com.

FTR, I didn't "push my view of you" as being anything except inexperienced, which was the impression I got from your posts. Do forgive me if I'm wrong--you may well be a vastly experienced person with decades of learning and practice to draw upon, in which case I look forward to recieving the benefit of your wisdom.

When I referred to a "phase of buying into stuff that later proved desperately flawed," I was making a fairly general point that I hope many people here can relate to. If you can pick up your magical journal from five years ago, let alone ten or twenty, and read it without cringing a little at your mistakes, you're very rare indeed (and possibly your practice has gone a bit stale).

I don't think any of the people who've challenged the concept of psychic vampirism here are stuck in the Dion Fortune rut. In fact, I think most of us have challenged the rather rigid energy-model interpretation I associate with her writings on the subject. No?

Perhaps if you want people to accept the concept of an ethical energy drain, you should try and come up with something a bit more meaty than unconscious agreement. If I nick someone's bag when ze's not looking, I could argue that by letting hir attention lapse my victim has given hir unconscious permission of the theft. Don't think ze'd agree with me though...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:30 / 09.09.05
keep evolving and dont get stuck in the rotting corpse of a tradition...Keep creating new magickal identities until the generations coming define themselves and dont stamp on what you are or they will be.

Over and Out..... (prev. Wolfangel): would it ruin your dramatic exit to pop back and explain to us how exactly "psychic vampire" constitutes a "new magickal identity"? Because I'm sure I've come across it in a couple of other places, like that cutting-edge work by punkpop magyk babe Dion Fortue mentioned above, or up-and-coming neo-hipster Anton LaVey's hot-off-the-press "The Satanic Bible?"
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:35 / 09.09.05
Daynah: Sorry, but that just sounds like a load of ridiculous, poorly thought-out, self-mythologising bollocks to me, that does neither you or anybody else on the planet any good by being perpetuated. I also think you are also displaying a huge and fairly unpleasant misunderstanding of the nature of “energy” by looking at human beings as juicy sources of it, in comparison to significantly less juicy inanimate objects such as a table or a shoe. If this “energy” can be said to exist at all, then human beings, tables and shoes are not sources of it, but receptacles for it.

If you look at virtually every model of “energy” in every culture throughout the world – the energy is something that is in abundance throughout the universe and can be readily accessed by certain practices. More than enough of it. Vast cosmic amounts. How much energy is in the Sun? In the planet earth? In the entire Universe? It’s the same stuff that flows through people. It’s the same stuff that flows through pencils. To go about stealing it from people or from pencils is like mugging someone for a glass of water when you live next to an open resevoir.

Unless we’re talking about an entirely different type of “energy” from that which various sources have described as chi, prana, orgone, etc. A type of energy that only you and your vampire mates in “the community” have any experience of, and which operates differently from all other accounts of energy deficiency and replenishment throughout the world. I’m not convinced. I think you’ve made up your mind that you are a doomed afflicted genetic vampire, just like your grandfather before you (even though he didn’t know it himself), and any evidence to the contrary or other possible solutions to the problem are not going to get through.

You clearly like to think of yourself as a vampire and have a significant investment in a community of people who think similarly and re-enforce this belief system. But I think that fundamentally it is simply a belief system that you have chosen to identify with. Nothing wrong with that, of course. Unless we’re talking about a belief system that is in all likelihood parasitic and harmful to both you and everyone around you.

Do you want to live like this and labour under the perceived burden of your affliction? I think you probably do. Stake through the heart for you, then. No sympathy. If you don’t want to live like this, and you genuinely want to explore alternative magical approaches for effectively dealing with your situation, then there are plenty of options to explore. You are more than welcome to PM me if you want to discuss the possibilities. It’s all down to choice in the end, and you seem to be making the choice to victimise people.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:41 / 09.09.05
Anth, I believe that. I think it's unconciously agreed.

"She was gagging for it, officer. Just look at the short skirt she had on. She wanted it. You could tell by how she was dancing."
 
 
daynah
12:41 / 09.09.05
Perhaps if you want people to accept the concept of an ethical energy drain, you should try and come up with something a bit more meaty than unconscious agreement.

That was not my explination of how we ethically feed. Like I said before (but this has gone so fast, that even all of your posts have blurred together to me, so I know all of my long posts must have blurred together)...

Here's our stream of consciousness.

1) We first believe energy is real. Just like people who believe in Reiki, people in Buddhism, and a vast majority of people in the occult.

2) We believe we have a need for extra energy beyond ourselves. When I say need, I mean need. We believe there is no way around it..

3) This is where some people split off. A small part of the population is able to get sufficient energy from inanimate objects.
a) Animals are unquestionably not allowed because we view them as too defenceless, and guilt resides (but we still have the need).
b) The majority of vampires, me included, feel like the effort required to take energy from inanimate objects or the elements is more than is actually gained from the object.
c) Plants, to many vampires, fall in either group a (defenceless, unable to say no) or group b (not enough energy to be worth your time anyway) or both groups.
d) Tai Chi and other similars, in my experience, helps me to utilize my energy better, and help me balance it amongst my body, but does not fix the problem. It does not bring in more energy or help with my mussed chakra. It does help me metabolize the energy more efficiently, so less is wasted, but still energy is needed. Meditation helps with focusing on energy work, but simply does not fix the problem. (I have now read, but obviously not tried Liber Resh. If someone would like to help me form some form of that that meshes with buddhism, I'd greatly appreciate it). Reiki seems to give temporary relief, lasting for about a week for the average-trained reiki practitioner.

That seems to leave humans.

4) Nearly all humans are at full energy. A good chunk of humans over produce energy. The humans who don't produce enough energy, and thus are unethical to take from, are sick and will make you feel funny anyway. The need is there. Something has to be done.

5) To make it the most ethical, we'll want to take it from the humans who have the excess of energy.

6) Even then, it would be an awful thing to do when someone is so overjoyed to lower their day to just average. We should just shave off a little of their excess from a whole lot of people. The need is there.

7) We never have to be completely full, just full enough to function through life. That fullfills the need.

8) So, as we simply go through our lives, if we control our energy working to only take a small bit off of the people that are at an abundance, we will constantly fullfill the need. Also, using Tai Chi and other methods will help us use all of the energy we take without waste.

This is how we do it the most ethically we can.
 
 
daynah
12:49 / 09.09.05
I think you’ve made up your mind that you are a doomed afflicted genetic vampire,

I think you've made up your mind about me long ago and stopped reading my posts. I specifically said that I didn't believe that it was passed through genetics.

I'm posting here because I was asked to give another side of the argument instead of letting you guys just nod to each other and say, "Yup, yup, bunch of idiots they are, we know much better." Two sides makes a much better debate.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:04 / 09.09.05
Thanks for that explanation, but in my opinion, it’s based on a profound misunderstanding of the nature of this energy and the very sophisticated methods that can be utilized to resolve the kind of chronic deficiencies you are describing.

A small part of the population is able to get sufficient energy from inanimate objects… Animals are unquestionably not allowed because we view them as too defenceless, and guilt resides (but we still have the need)… The majority of vampires, me included, feel like the effort required to take energy from inanimate objects or the elements is more than is actually gained from the object. etc…

You are looking at it in a really pathological way. The very notion that you have “take” from something, be it a person, animal, plant, or estate agent, is the problem. Your vampirism is inherent in the way you think about energy. You don’t need to vampirise energy from other things, animal, vegetable or mineral, in order to get more than enough energy for your needs.

Tai Chi and other similars, in my experience, helps me to utilize my energy better, and help me balance it amongst my body, but does not fix the problem. It does not bring in more energy or help with my mussed chakra.

Well… that’s what Tai Chi does. It circulates and regulates energy throughout the body. Chi Kung, on the other hand, is about bringing in more energy. Practices such as the Middle Pillar will likely heal and repair what you are describing as a messed up chakra. If you attribute your need to vampirise to an inability to recieve sufficient energy in the way that other people seem to, because of a broken chakra or whatever, then such things can be fixed and sorted out. As long as the will is actually there to fix them and sort them out.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:11 / 09.09.05
Two sides makes a much better debate.

Indeed they do, and that's what we are doing isnt it? Debating. I've read your posts and so far you are in no way convincing me that your vampirism is anything more than a comforting belief system you have attributed to a pathological problem. I'm not going to slap you on the back and say "Go vampire!" because I do not think your practices are in any way beneficial to you or to the people you vampirise. I think you ought to make more of an effort to look for other ways of solving your problem, rather than leeching off other poor bastards and justifying it with a seductive mythology.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:16 / 09.09.05
Hmmm. Speaking personally, I'd find a gentle stroll through a piece of woodland much more invigorating than walking down a crowded city street. Hills, streams, rocks, especially sacred places--these are all inanimate from your point of view but feel absolutely chocka with "energy" to me (or with something that I experience as "energy" anyhow). But then I'm not a vampire.

Have you tried experimenting with other systems that don't rely on the energy model, and a very rigid interpretation thereof at that? What measures have you taken/do you intend to take to fix that broken chakra, which seems to be regarded as the root of your problems? A competent Reiki practitioner is trained to pick up on these things and help sort them out.
 
 
daynah
13:27 / 09.09.05
We believe that the methods we're using are ethical.

No one is getting hurt. The only people we drain are people close to us that we get verbal permission from.

I go many days without even thinking about it. I have my feeding mechanism on automatic, I'm so used to it.

I've been doing reiki very often. If you'd like to help me with the Middle Pillar privately, we can. I do not mind explaining, privately, every working of my energy body.

But to us, we are not "leeching" off of anything. We're not doing it because of some mythology. We're perfectly natural. Nothing did this to us. It's perfectly apart of the workings of the world. If nature made physical leeches and moquitos and whatnot, why not energy?

Some vampires, also, get offended when you talk of "fixing" them. They go by the little paragraph I wrote right above, except to a more extreme measure. I'd like to get "fixed," but they have it so much attunded to their identity that they would not have anything left of who they are if they are not a vampire anymore.
 
 
daynah
13:34 / 09.09.05
Have you tried experimenting with other systems that don't rely on the energy model, and a very rigid interpretation thereof at that? What measures have you taken/do you intend to take to fix that broken chakra, which seems to be regarded as the root of your problems? A competent Reiki practitioner is trained to pick up on these things and help sort them out.

My college has a... decent sized reiki community, believe it or not. Two or three times a week, someone is on the green getting something done. I usually have a reiki practitioner working on me every other week, though I don't personally do any reiki myself.

Also, I've been working deeply on buddhism. I sincerely think my problem is my attachment to being full of energy. If I can let go of that (much harder than it seems, because it's human nature) then the vampirism should go away with all of it's symptoms. So, lately, I've honestly been ignoring the chakra and the energy body and all that hoopla and gotten to what I think is the real, root cause of all suffering attachment.

And though I've been buddhist for five years, I've only connected the buddhism to the vampirism for the past... almost two years.
 
 
Quantum
14:00 / 09.09.05
Well, you go away for a while and look what happens. I knew I should've checked the board while it was night-time.

...have no intelligence of my own but simply that of the gothic borg. Daynah

Heh, that made me laugh. I won't see a Goth now without imagining a black eyepiece on them.

Wolfangel/over and out/insufferable twat who won't leave-
please fucking leave kaythanxbye.

Bard- according to the Michelle Boulanger codex it's innate, definitely have a look at it. It's appalling. Personally I think Daynah's representation of the vampire community is far more sensible (even though I don't agree with it) and when she says 'put the codex down' I'd say burn it, if you put it down you might pick it up again.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:03 / 09.09.05
What makes you say that chi (or orgone, or ki, or prana, ect) drawn from a person, be they everso willing, is different in nature from chi drawn from elsewhere? Because as I understand it, most energy models outside the one put forth by the "vampire community," energy models that have been used in the practices of some cultures for many thousands of years, conceptualise this life-energy as being universal, present in all things, and of the same essential character. Why not visualise drawing "energy" up from the Earth, for instance, or down from the heavens?
 
 
illmatic
14:10 / 09.09.05
Indeed what a thread to miss out on. I've been busy all day but ... bloody hell...

I've seen a couple of people mention orgone in this thread - according to Reich anyway, it is real, measurable etc. (but they all say that, eh?).

Daynah, dude, build yourself an orgone acculmulator.
 
  

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