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Psychic Vampires- A Good or a Bad Thing?

 
  

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Quantum
18:01 / 09.09.05
You're right, I'm closing the window, it's just making me angry.

Back to consent- you can't get consent from a group of people at a nightclub (for example) but it's OK to feed off them? How do you know you're not harming them?

Either what you believe is True, and you're siphoning energy off people (which is hard to justify) or it's Not True in which case you're not in fact siphoning energy (but thus not harming them). Or, secret option C, you're imprisoning yourself in a misguided belief system when you could believe something else that doesn't involve sacrificial finite living energy but tapping the infinite well that is the universe.

Personally if I was going to get Energy from somewhere, the fabric of time and space/the godhead/the lifeweb/the sun/the moon/some food/gravity would be better. Why human energy particularly? I understand what you say about it, but it implies you've got some problem which can be fixed- not just by enlightenment or detachment, but by re-jigging your energy body.
 
 
Skatche
18:31 / 09.09.05
Took me forever to read through this thread. I'm a little disappointed at some of the strawmen that have been tossed around, but I'm pleased that things took a turn for the better toward the end. I'm not a vampire myself, but I spend enough time with them that I feel justified offering my thoughts.

First, I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective on psychic vampirism that is partly a response to those who believe psychic vampires are unnecessarily taking from people when they could just as easily take from the Universal Source.

You see, I tend to regard the subtle body as fairly concrete, with discrete organs and such. I won't go into that too much. What's important is that I believe a specific organ (the navel chakra) is responsible for converting energy into a form usable by the subtle body.

This requires further explanation. Most of you are no doubt familiar with the concept of an "energy signature", a certain "taste" that pervades a person's energy. All things (in the model I use) have signatures like this, be they people or animals or tables or rooms or ideas or scents or constellations or times of year.

Now, in many traditions there is the practice of taking energy from various sources, to be used for some given purpose. Let us take, as an example, the sun. The sun's energy has a particular flavour to it: bright, powerful, fiery, and so forth. Suppose Joe feeds off the sun to energize himself. For a little while afterward, Joe's flavour will have a hint of bright, powerful and fiery. But soon, he will go back to tasting like himself. Why? Because his subtle body has processed the solar energy and converted it to his own energy signature.

Let's extend things a bit further. We know of lactose intolerance as a physical condition. How about solar intolerance as a subtle condition? Suppose that, to Jane's subtle body, the energy of the sun is just too harsh and irritating. Maybe she needs to feed off the moon, which reflects the sun's energy and changes its flavour in the process.

Now suppose that you've got this individual, whom we will name Vlad for humourous purposes, who is actually very bad at feeding off of most things. He finds that he must get his energy from vertebrate organisms or, even more specifically, from human beings. That would be one kind of vampire. Perhaps, however, it would be more appropriate to call Vlad an energy carnivore.

Now, what of the Universal Source? As most of you will probably agree, the Source has no particular flavour to it. In some models, however, this energy pervades everything, and everyone gets a steady flow of Source energy at all times. This energy, in my system, is also given an individual signature by each person's subtle body.

But suppose that mechanism breaks down. All of a sudden, the energy coming in is useless to the person's subtle body, and it begins to suffer. The only way it can sustain itself is by taking in energy that has already been processed by the subtle bodies of others. It's not a perfect match, flavour-wise, but it's enough to live on. This is what the majority of psychic vampires go through.

(I am not saying this is true - just that I believe it is true, most of the time. I'm offering it for debate.)


Now, as to the ethics of vampirism. Something that, much to my amazement, has been neglected the entire thread is that there has been a strong push in the vampire community toward ethics. This has been the source of The Black Veil (the link here is to the copy on Michelle Belanger's website, but it is mirrored in many other places). Note, in particular, the section on Donors:

Feeding should occur between consenting adults. Allow donors to make an informed decision before they give of themselves to you. Do not take rapaciously from others, but seek to have an exchange that is pleasant and beneficial for all. (Bolding mine.)

It may seem useless just to write this down and expect people to follow it. And I'll admit that some vampires are not the most ethical - whether consciously or unconsciously. But people who are openly unethical are generally ostracized from most of the mainstream vampire community (oxymoron notwithstanding).

As for feeding off large crowds, a distinction should be drawn: feeding off the crowd itself, and the ambient energy in the room, is different from feeding off the individual constituents of the crowd. One could say that, in a large crowd, everybody is feeding off the ambient energy, refining it, and pumping it back out as even more ambient energy. The psychic vampire simply feeds without pumping it back out. It's a little bit like a cow grazing, in that the energy (or grass) will be quickly replaced, with no substantial harm done to the crowd (or field).
 
 
Quantum
18:47 / 09.09.05
Resonance might be another way of describing the 'flavour' of energy (from Mage appropriately).

If a vampire thinks they *have* to feed as you describe, that's got to be tricky when you can't find a willing donor. If nobody is willing to consent what does one do? Feed anyway I suspect, then feel bad.
 
 
daynah
18:49 / 09.09.05
You could describe the energy that way, I suppose. Except neither of us roleplays, so we wouldn't have known to use the term that way.

If a vampire thinks they *have* to feed as you describe, that's got to be tricky when you can't find a willing donor. If nobody is willing to consent what does one do? Feed anyway I suspect, then feel bad.

That's when ambient feeding kicks in.
 
 
Skatche
18:55 / 09.09.05
Come on Quantum, please do not cheapen this discussion by pointlessly drawing connections to White Wolf. Energy signatures are common to many forms of real magick. Even in chaos magick there is the concept of "charging" a sigil with energy, effectively giving that energy the intent of the sigil. Believe it or not, White Wolf did do some research when making their games, and I will not saw off my legs because Hitler had them too, so to speak.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:06 / 09.09.05
[Slight rot] I'm sorry everyone, I know we said no more White Wolf, but when I read that "Black Veil" thing linked to up there I immediately found myself flashing onto "Masquerade, Progeny, Domain..." ect.

Bad me. [/rot]
 
 
daynah
19:12 / 09.09.05
In 1993 Father Sebastian proclaimed to the media that he was a vampire who drank blood. In 1993 Vampire: The Masquerade was wildly popular. Though Michelle Belanger's prototype of The Black Veil was called the 13 Rules of the Community, Father Sebastian decided he would suddenly change it, giving it titles like "Discretion" and "Diversity" and "Elders."

People don't like Father Sebastian.

Father Sebastian is no longer in the community anymore.

Either way, for all those vampires who come into the community for six months and then leave, for the vampires who aren't really psychic vampires, but are fetish vampires or are roleplay vampires, putting the ethics that are in it (and there are ethics in it) in a fluffy, roleplayer-y format make it so they want to understand it.

They run around saying, "I proudly wear the black veil."

Annoying... but at least it means they follow some sort of ethics system, even if it's poorly written.
 
 
Ria
00:32 / 10.09.05
a close friend identified herself to me as a energy vampire, although she has no contact with the scene as far as I know (not that type). she has allergies to just about everything, more allergies than I have ever known a person to have. in particular food allergies to just about everything except meat and blood. she truly has more allergies than any person could have.

the way she described it, her father instructed her on feeding and showed her how to absorb energy from fruit. she explained to me that vampires have the same set chakras as other humans, only inverted. (daynah, would you comment on this?)

the loser-creep psychic vampire (Anton LaVey came up with the phrase) makes up one component of the vampire persona... the real life kind... you have the energy manipulator who feeds on the social or sexual appreciation of others and does so succesfully. alpha wolf versus the scavenger lower status (loser-creep) wolf.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
02:44 / 10.09.05
I recall a few years back a friend was talking about some parapsychology course that one of his friends had been in back in the 70s or so (please excuse my inaccuracy, Steve told me this a few years back). Apparently the prof paraded a bunch of psychics, both real and fradulent, in front of the class, having each talk about what they did and do demonstrations. Understandably, 90% of them were frauds or just self-deluded folks with some decent people skills. One guy, apparently, could make fruit and vegetables ripen and shrivel up by "sucking the life out of them".

Now, I'm not 100% sure about this. Frankly it sounds just a tad apocryphal.

I also know folks that can get a good charge by standing out in sunlight. Me, I like to take a walk in the city and just soak it up. I can empathize with the idea of only being able to get a charge from certain places. I think it makes a certain amount of sense.

Unfortunatly, I'm in the same boat as Quantum. We're both Mage fanatics, so I sometimes have a hard time looking at the phrasing of some stuff without laughing or commenting to the effect of "I think I played that character once".

But this all gets back to the point I made yesterday about the English language, in and of itself, being part of the problem. While I can't think of a better term than "vampire", there has to be one out there that doesn't carry the loaded connotations that the current one does.

Finally, I'd just like to agree with the folks who have been commenting on it. I haven't seen many people like Daynah keep a cool head through this sort of thread. Congrats, Daynah.
 
 
Ganesh
08:08 / 10.09.05
... her father instructed her on feeding and showed her how to absorb energy from fruit.

By eating it?
 
 
Quantum
10:08 / 10.09.05
Seriously, resonance is a good term. You're right, Mage is really well researched and based on real occult ideas (thinly veiled) although I can't say the same for the other systems. Just because it's used in RPG doesn't make it trivial. Don't saw off your legs. You're saying that energy has to be 'predigested' kinda to give it human life resonance before it's useful to the vamp.

Daynah- the model you're using for ambient energy implies that people naturally produce an excess of energy which bleeds off into the ether/atmosphere/whatever. Where do they get it from? If most normal people are energy generators, and vampires aren't generating enough, then what's the source of that energy? And if no vampire's around, what happens to the excess? My point is that you could pick up ambient energy pretty much anywhere if people are throwing it off willy nilly, unless it somehow degrades or dissipates over time. Can life energy go off? Is it somehow 'fresh' or 'stale'?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:46 / 10.09.05
As an aside: It's interesting to me that everyone I've met who identified as a vampire seemed to have a background of horrendous abuse and neglect, starting in early childhood. This seemed especially true of the people who actually engaged in drinking blood--some of the experience they confided in me make me physically sick to think about. I don't know if this is universal or if I got a bit of a skewed sample (they were, by and large, a bunch of Goths).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:22 / 10.09.05
I'm struggling to see why this is such a problem, to be honest. If somebody believes themselves to be, say, a teapot, but can still live a happy life, then how does their belief that they are a teapot discommode others?

Dayna believes that ze is a psychic vampire - that is, that ze has some sort of energy deficiency best dealt with, in hir case, by absorbing energy from humans. These humans either give their consent or are not being drained directly, in the case of a mob scene. The amounts removed are so small as to have a negligible impact on the donors' mood/energy, so, whether they believe themselves to be actually giving of their psychic energy or simply humouring somebody, thhey are unaffected. This could be a delusion, and it is certainly a very good one, being as it is almost entirely impossible to prove or disprove objectively (as any removal of energy suffficiently great as to have a measurable effect is counterindicated as "unethical"), or it could be a specific malady based on an understanding of how "energy" functions that others may or may not find satisfying, but what difference does it make either way?
 
 
Quantum
14:14 / 10.09.05
If you believe the psychic vampire is deluding themself then it doesn't matter. Ditto if you think energy and such is all nonsense. If you believe there to be some reality behind it, then it does matter, and ethics become involved.

Personally I'm intrigued to see how the paradigm fits together, and the underlying assumptions and so on.
 
 
Ria
14:16 / 10.09.05
... her father instructed her on feeding and showed her how to absorb energy from fruit.

By eating it?


shhh... don't give away the secret!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:30 / 10.09.05
If you believe there to be some reality behind it, then it does matter, and ethics become involved.

Ah, well - if you believe, say, that there is reality behind it, but that the vampire is wrong - say, that drainign energy, even in small amounts, is dangerous and wrong, or that "ambient feeding" would require consent, Ventrue - sorry, I mean "then, true".
 
 
Ria
14:36 / 10.09.05
going on what MC said, this has started to remind me of the idea of culture-bound syndromes, meaning forms of aberrance which some cultures have that others do not.

imagining that people who have this energy defiency or whatever, they'd find certain sub-cultures a lot more open to talk about this (and gain attention from) their belief than others and they have a stereotype with which to identify.

most people have not heard of the Fortean phenomena of people who can affect electricity in various ways. to the extent that they call themselves anything at all they call themselves sliders. since they have no stereotype to fit into they remain obscure and unaffiliated with any group except that they would tend to have an interest in Forteana.

as far as the abuse, didn't I read online that some vampires get that way because their subtle body and/or chakra gets hurt or blocked in some way.
 
 
Quantum
14:47 / 10.09.05
Ventrue with a fruit feeding restriction 'I can only feed from blood oranges!'

Further, it could be psychologically harmful to the 'vampire' to believe that they're sucking energy from others, or have implications that would have more tangible effects on others. It's not a huge step from stealing energy to other forms of harm. I'm not suggesting Daynah's about to off a granny and drain her dry, but what people believe does have an effect. If someone believes they're a teapot it might not be harmful, but if they believe they're a vamp hunter it might lead to harm.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:04 / 10.09.05
If someone believes they're a teapot it might not be harmful, but if they believe they're a vamp hunter it might lead to harm.

But that's hardly the fault of the vampire, delusional or not...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:26 / 10.09.05
it could be psychologically harmful to the 'vampire' to believe that they're sucking energy from others

Okay, at this point I have to cop to one reason I get hot under the collar around people with this belief and try my damndest to discourage it, to whit: When I was much younger and less clued-up than I am now, I had one or two people in my life try very very hard to convince me that

a) I was a psychic vampire and that
b) I was feeding on them, but that was okay because
c) they were lovely lovely magnanimous people who would give freely of their energy to me.

It was made very clear to me that b) constituted a collosal burden and that I should be pathetically grateful to them for being c). One of these people I dealt with by avoiding him thereafter, but another was someone very close who I loved and trusted very deeply. It would almost have been easier to accept that condition a) was true, even though I knew otherwise even with the attendant guilt-tripping, moral blackmail and all-around headfuckery, than to challenge this person's claims. (However, I did. Big scene. Much weeping and horribleness.)

I can easily see someone who's bought into the vampire role falling victim to a lot of emotional arm-twisting from hir supposed "donors". It's a bit harder to guit-trip someone for thinking ze's a teapot. Unless it was a vampire teapot.

(I've come across other versions of this bollocks since. "You killed me horribly in one of our shared past lives but I forgive you because I'm so lovely" is also a hardy perrenial.)
 
 
daynah
21:27 / 10.09.05
Haus gets an internet kiss.

Eating the fruit nurishes the body. Eating a human with nurish the body. But if you think there's also an energy body there...

Further, it could be psychologically harmful to the 'vampire' to believe that they're sucking energy from others, or have implications that would have more tangible effects on others. It's not a huge step from stealing energy to other forms of harm. I'm not suggesting Daynah's about to off a granny and drain her dry, but what people believe does have an effect. If someone believes they're a teapot it might not be harmful, but if they believe they're a vamp hunter it might lead to harm.

That's very true. That's why I'm actively apart of trying to keep the vampiric community out of published books and such... I also am a member of a few teenage vampire boards as a moderator and a basically tell people that they're not a vampire, but do it in a convincing "cool" way, from a teenager's perspective. No teenager wants an adult, or someone who uses biggie words, telling them they're not a vampire. You have to say it without any metaphysical language, and basically tell them how retarded the life is and how much "cooler" it is to be human, or how much cooler it is to know about the vampire community and hang out with us, but accept the fact that they're not a vampire (since most of the teenage potentials are just looking for a place to belong anyway).

Check out the news. There are a lot of "vampire" murderers. But note: Most of them protest to be more into blood drinking or are more obsessed with role playing or book vampires. The more the community stays away from these things, the safer we get, though there is an obvious trigger for sociopaths.

M*rdant, best way to learn from debates is to accept that you may be biased. I may be biased (uh, duh), too, but I did learn something. I will be commenting on it in a bit after I take the time to type it out well enough and think it fully though. I had the click point like two seconds ago so...
 
 
w1rebaby
21:55 / 10.09.05
I certainly in general have a poor reaction to people who claim that they are vampires, but if anything daynah appears to be acting very responsibly, actively discouraging teen goth fantasies, aware of the potential social reasons why one might claim that one is a vampire, not using it as an excuse to manipulate other people, not apparently engaging in any self-destructive behaviour because of this and generally keeping him/herself to him/herself. I can't really see any problem that I could have with that.

I don't subscribe to many of the positions regarding "energies" that are being thrown around here but it's unlikely that it's ever going to reach the stage where said concepts are being forced on society so I don't see the point in going off on a rant. So I go along with the teapot position really.

It's not like daynah is a Tory or anything, after all. (You're not, right?)
 
 
Ganesh
22:24 / 10.09.05
Well, yes, although I'm frequently irritated by (what I see as) a faintly self-aggrandising belief system based on intellectually leaky concepts of "energy", I have to concede that being irritating isn't the same as doing actual harm - and 'psychic vampires' are perfectly free to believe anything they want to believe.
 
 
Ria
23:12 / 10.09.05
never would I describe my friend as self-aggrandizing though I would describe one of our mutual vampy friends (the only other self-described vampire I have known) as such.

occultists and creative artists can famously get into huge self-mythmaking trips and we do not write all of them off.
 
 
daynah
00:06 / 11.09.05
It's not like daynah is a Tory or anything, after all.

Not quite catching the refrence... so... I'm gonna take a guess at "no" but don't quote me on that.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
03:01 / 11.09.05
Tory = Conservative--what we Limeys have instead of Rebublicans.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
03:45 / 11.09.05
We Canucks have got them to. Bloody Tories. I found out my friend was one. I mean...it figures, what with him being a lawyer and all. But still!

...sorry. Threadroat. I'll be quiet.
 
 
penitentvandal
21:21 / 13.09.05
Can I just take issue with this idea, put forward earlier, that sigil magic always involves using energy to charge a sigil? It doesn't have to, y'know. One very plausible model is that the sigil work drives the sigilized desire into the subconscious, which then motivates the magician to consciously achieve the desire. I don't always believe this, of course, but it can be a useful model precisely because it avoids all the cultural baggage the various energy-based models bring with them.
 
 
Skatche
21:37 / 13.09.05
Quantum: Sorry for snapping at you. I'm accustomed to avoiding White Wolf references wherever possible, simply because of the negative light in which they are generally seen in the vampire community.

velvetvandal: What I was pointing out is simply that many "mainstream" systems of magick do contain the concept of an energy signature, in some form or other. The question of whether or not such a thing actually exists is worthy of a separate thread.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:17 / 13.09.05
Yeah, that's interesting discussion material... Got a couple of old energy threads floating around which you could bump, like this one: 'Energy'. Or you could start a new one.
 
  

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