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Spoilers!!!

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ONLY NICE THINGS

10:28 / 13.12.06

Having read the thread in its entirety, thus spoilering myself for any future viewing - things I do for Barbelith - it seems essentially that Jack is being a bit asinine and needy, and, critically, neither funny nor artful. However, in this case the cure seems to me to be considerably worse than the symptom, since toksik has not only subjected the thread to concerted rot with some quite icky personal attacks but also demonstrated to Jack that if he just keeps hammering away he'll get the rise he appears to want.

As such, and since all parties appear to be reading this thread, can we agree that any further such playing of silly beggars will be met with an immediate move for deletion to avoid threadrot?

11:31 / 13.12.06

I'm happy with that.

14:11 / 13.12.06

delete all my posts if you like.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:34 / 13.12.06

Dude, there are over five thousand of them - I think it may take a while. If you mean the posts in the thread - I've actually just disagreed a request to delete two of them, on the grounds that, for good or ill, to do so would harm the sense of the thread, unless there was an agreement to delete the rest of the spoiler tangents as well - which I'm happy to put forward if everyone's happy with it. On the plus side, discussion of ongoing episodic content tends to push past what might be thread-killing to another discussion. However, in general I'd prefer this to be a learning rather than a burning experience for all concerned.

15:58 / 13.12.06

am i supposed to learn not to say shitty things about jack?
i guess i can try. i'm resisting the urge to describe him unflatteringly right now, so i guess there is hope.

i'm going to be staying out of the threads in FTV for a while anyway, as i can't seem to guarantee i won't see spoilers, even in threads designed to be safe.
if it is not going to be poiliced, then i think the answer is for me to avoid the bad neighbourhood.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:06 / 13.12.06

Could you provide a link to a single spoiler regarding "Heroes", or indeed any other cultural product from the last decade, that Jack Fear divulged, toksik? Or any instance of an actual spoiler not being "policed" - in this case by the "Heroes" spoilers being replaced with [spoiler deleted]? Short of banning everyone who spoils once, I don't see what more can be done, and since "Heroes" spoilers also appeared in the "Gives Me a Happpy" thread in Conversation, I'm afraid that if that is not an acceptable level of security you may be dicing with revelation all across Barbelith.

One link. That would be fine.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

17:24 / 13.12.06

I think Toksik is again mixing his complaints.

His complaints against Jack have nothing to do with spoilers the suit has divulged, he is more worried about Jack's attitude.

The complaint about avoiding spoilers is a different but connected issue.

Personally I agree with you that the level of policing going on with regards to spoilers is fine. I cannot think of any way to police it more effectively.

17:38 / 13.12.06

Could you provide a link to a single spoiler regarding "Heroes", or indeed any other cultural product from the last decade, that Jack Fear divulged, toksik?

in my last post, could you tell me where i said he had?

i was suggesting it might be best for me to stay away from discussion if it is liklely to have spoilers in it.
as has been noted, my issues with jack are his glee at other people's dissapointment and his desire to abuse those who ask for spoilers to be policed.

they are still policed, as you point out.
if that is to change, if they are not to be policed, then i will continue to avoid FTVT and hope that it doesnt spread to other forums.

the connection is that jack seems to think that policing spoilers is unnecessary, and that everyone needs instead to toughen up. i may have misunderstood his point, but it seems that way to me.

18:00 / 13.12.06

As with so many things, it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it. To wit:

(a) your level of outrage at infractions of the no-spoiler rule seems comically disproportional to the actual severity of the offense, and

(b) the utter predictability of your response—your near-instantaneous appearance at the faintest whiff of spoilage, and your subsequent histrionic denunciation of the spoiler—is fascinating to watch; in fact, it's downright Pavlovian.

That being said; Frankly, yeah, I do think you're attaching a grotesquely inflated sense of importance to the maintenance of a spoiler-free environment, as if the freedom to enjoy unspoiled entertainment were a basic human right. 'Tain't so. No-spoiler rules are nice, but they're not fundamentally necessary to a civilized society.

This is not like the policing of abusive or threatening language, which are prerequisites for civilized discourse; No-spoiler protocols are simply a courtesy extended towards the eccentric.

It seems like a bit of a waste to get so upset over something that matters so very little in the larger scheme of things, is all.

18:08 / 13.12.06

And having explained the joke—which always ruins it, really—I find there is nothing more here for me. I withdraw, therefore, leaving toksik to speculate on my self-loathing and my unhappy childhood, as he plots the terrible vengeance he will one day exact upon me.

I'm shaking. Though not entirely with fear.

18:57 / 13.12.06

who said i would enact vengeance? i dont think that was me. i also don't think i appear at the faintest whiff of spoilage, as you put it. to my mind i have mentioned it a handful of times.
maybe three.

are you thinking of someone else?

i was made aware of your attitude towards people who care about spoilers when it was barbequoted by someone who it seems shares your glee at other people's upset.
i'm not sure how your behaviour can be a reaction to mine, as it preceded it.

i'm sorry i was so angry.
i'm sorry i was hyperbolic in my anger.
i'll try to reign it in in future.

19:39 / 13.12.06

For your own health, Toks, I hope so.

I mean, Jack being silly, and a few spoilers are not worth a heart attack.

20:10 / 13.12.06

no shit.

20:31 / 13.12.06

sorry, that could seem unduly harsh.
i keep thinking of the saying "do not vex with sharp words a man swollen with anger", but your words were hardly sharp.

once again, sorry if i came across as a dick there.

23:21 / 13.12.06

It's tough, isn't it? On the one hand, you want to talk about a series that you're excited about. On the other hand you don't want to ruin that exitement by learning things before you've experienced them in the series.

It's tough to talk about it online without people who know what's going to happen ruining it, because how are they to know that a lot of the time? With things like Lost it's easyish to avoid until you know you're up-to-date (as I've been doing).

But with some threads when there's an agreed spoiler protocol you'd like to wish there wasn't someone who said, "You're pathetic for being annoyed about this. It's not like you live in Iraq and have just had your legs blown off and your loved ones killed." That would seem to be an odd reaction. Even if there wasn't an agreed format for discussion, it would seem to be a definite overreaction to something that may or not have been an overreaction.

So who murdered your pet hamster when you were still in the womb, Jack?

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:51 / 13.12.06

The best thing to do, I find, when two people have already descended to basically ghastly behaviour is not to join them, Seth. Jack and toksik have both acted in very disappointing and very boring fashions. Approaching their scrap as if it the details are worth considering is not, I feel, likely to be edifying.

Now, this being the Policy, I would like to ask what the Policy is on flameouts (which is, roughly, tell the person to get their shit together and undertake to delete further threadrot) and on notice-me attention-seeking. There was a move to delete Jack's posts, on the grounds that they were themselves spoilers. On those grounds, I would disagree. If we decide to delete notice-me posts, that would be more convincing. Are we deciding to do that?

00:30 / 14.12.06

Do what you want. I've had my momentary entertainment; it certainly doesn't need to be archived for the ages.

ONLY NICE THINGS

00:39 / 14.12.06

I'm sorry. I hadn't realised I needed to be clearer. Anyone who is actually a moderator in Film, TV and Theatre, and thus whose opinion has weight or worth?

00:42 / 14.12.06

I'm more of the opinion that the "larger scheme of things" defense should more frequently be met with piss-taking. Given that you can always find a larger scheme it's an argument without currency.

00:47 / 14.12.06

Do non-moderators not have opinions with weight and worth?

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:24 / 14.12.06

You're quite right, Seth. That was badly phrased. My point was that Jack and toksik have both as if brothers chorused thatwe can delete their posts, they don't care, they're going to their room; however, since they have been the cause of this problem, it hardly seems likely that they are also going to come up with the ideal solution for it, especially when their responses are about their own contributions so far, rather than what to do the next time there is explosive decompression in the impulse control room.

miss wonderstarr

05:29 / 14.12.06

That being said; Frankly, yeah, I do think you're attaching a grotesquely inflated sense of importance to the maintenance of a spoiler-free environment, as if the freedom to enjoy unspoiled entertainment were a basic human right. 'Tain't so. No-spoiler rules are nice, but they're not fundamentally necessary to a civilized society.

Discussing a TV show about people who can fly isn't fundamentally necessary to a civilised society either, but I think if we're agreed that it's OK to enjoy such trivial pursuits, then it's also OK for people to request that they don't have plot details revealed before they've encountered them, unless the thread warns that plot twists may be revealed here.

A lot of what happens on Barbelith isn't important. However, Barbelith still provides a sensible and supportive place for doing those unimportant things. It wouldn't really matter if you had some annoying housemate sitting next to you while you watched TV, giggling "oh my God I can't believe he's going to die in just two minutes!" ~ it doesn't really register on a scale that includes global warming ~ but if you're going to watch that show at all, I think it's reasonable to ask that you be allowed to watch it in a way you find satisfying and pleasurable, and to most people, that includes not having plot details given away once an agreement's been made that in this specific environment, that won't happen.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:16 / 14.12.06

Not having seen the thread in question as I'm about five episodes behind in Heroes and not likely to catch up soon I agree with Starr. We seem to have a system with Torchwood and Doctor Who which has worked and I don't see why that can't be expanded to other shows.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:16 / 14.12.06

Yeah, I was planning on joining in this thread as soon as the fighting had finished, but now I come to do so it seems starr has pretty much covered everything I was going to say.

I used to live with a guy who LIVED for spoilers. If he came in while I was watching something, he'd tell me the ending. If we were watching something together which I'd already seen, he'd ruin it by constantly asking me to tell him what happened next. I once asked him if he'd ever actually waited to open a present on Christmas morning. Apparently not. He was a right fucking cock to live with.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

17:00 / 14.12.06

Another thumbs up for what Wonderstarr said.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

18:48 / 14.12.06

Two thumbs for what Stoats said, I actually used the internet and magazines to spoil the end of season five of Babylon Five for myself and then, after that, realised I'd ruined something that entertained me. Since then I've largely tried to avoid them.

Keith, like a scientist

19:05 / 14.12.06

Two thumbs for what Stoats said, I actually used the internet and magazines to spoil the end of season five of Babylon Five for myself and then, after that, realised I'd ruined something that entertained me. Since then I've largely tried to avoid them.

I feel your pain. I unfortunately did same thing. Damn you The Babylon 5 Spoilers Page!!!!

15:43 / 15.12.06

The dreamy idealist in me still wishes we had a way to black out spoiler text like they do at other boards. But... I think the only reasonable thing we can do is a) build spoiler threads separate from non-spoiler threads and/or b) keep the spoiler tags up. If you stumble over a spoiler and its tagged as such... seriously, it's your own damn fault.

The donnybrook between Jack and toksik is another silly beast entirely.

15:52 / 15.12.06

I also, and this is the mod hat speaking and not myself (ala the Sorting Hat, y'know kind of a deep burly voice coming off the top of my head) but my votes for yanking the rot out of the Heroes thread if Jack and toksik have no opposition to it.

I'm fond of the tidy.

19:53 / 15.12.06

my vote's for yanking the rot out of the Heroes thread if Jack and toksik have no opposition to it.

it may have been missed or misunderstood, as it seems to have been recieved by one member as my huffy stompoff, but that's exactly what i was trying to say before. i am entirely happy with the full spectrum of mod actions up to and including the deletion of any of my posts in that thread.

my apologies if that wasnt clear.

21:48 / 15.12.06

No problem. I likely missed it on my end. I'll start the doings then.

10:55 / 01.04.07

Why is it so fucking difficult for people on this board to understand that speculation on things that haven't yet been mentioned overtly in an ongoing tv series is exactly the fucking same as posting a spoiler for an upcoming episode? Are we really incapable of simply talking about the pros and cons of the acting, writing, driection, etc, without having to blather on about characters and events that haven't even been seen yet?

11:37 / 01.04.07

I don't know but I think instead of pandering to people that do that and arguing the point with them we should get hard about it! Lets start deleting spoiler posts when they appear in non-spoiler threads. Or even deleting people if they can't stick to the rule. That should do it!

12:31 / 01.04.07

I think the problem here is that while attempting to set out a spoiler free thread, the initial post gave free reign to speculation and this has been something of a slippery slope toward spoilerdom.

I've set up what I hope to be a more overtly anti-spoiler thread if people want to use it or we could set up a specific speculation/spoiler thread.

miss wonderstarr

14:16 / 01.04.07

Or even deleting people if they can't stick to the rule. That should do it!

Is this serious? When I asked whether your first line of response against spoilers was going to be deleting posts, and your extreme sanction deleting people, it was at least in part a Cyberman satire. I fully understand it's annoying if someone speculates and you see it as spoilers, but grounds for banning?

Anyway, I have tried to put this issue to bed on the Doctor Who thread. I think Nina makes some very reasonable points and for my part I've apologised because I don't think it's at all worth falling out over.

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