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Spoilers!!!

 
  

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sleazenation
06:31 / 24.08.05
I think we need to talk about spoilers, specifically, I think we need a new consensus on how to deal with spoilers, particularly in the Film TV and Theatre forum.

In the past we have tried to maintain threads that are reasonably spoiler free, but the increasingly diverse ways in which people watch TV (Us broadcast, Bittorrent, UK cable and satelite, UK terrestrial, other UK Territories) I'm wondering if it might not be easier and more efficient to have all threads in that section considered spoiler threads unless otherwise stated...

What do people think? Does anyone have a better alternative as a means of tidying up the forum and providing the most effective was of ensuring people are both free to discuss and speculate but can avoid spoilers if that is something that is importiant to them...
 
 
Triplets
07:15 / 24.08.05
See, if you start saying 'right, every thread in here can be considered to have spoilers' then might that put a small minority of unspoiled posters off going posting in F/TV completely?

That said though, one person's spoiler is another's "so what?" so splitting spoilers/non-spoilers is likely impossible practically.

It may just be simpler letting anyone going into F/TV that "here be spoilers". Hurmm.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:43 / 24.08.05
But I think Sleaze is right, else we could be in a situation where we have two threads for each series of a show, for each country it's being shown in. As it is, BiTTorent means that I'm watching something like Galactica only about 24 hours behind it being shown in the States, so therefore I can discuss what's happening in the season 2 thread. However, as I don't like to know what's coming up, I'd be most pissed off if anyone started going round the fan sites and post either facts or fiction about what's happening later in the season. I would actually suggest that it's future knowledge of stuff that hasn't been broadcast anywhere yet that we have to consider whether there's a place for it on Barbelith. There's a limit to how much FT&T can, or should, resemble a Usenet forum.
 
 
Bed Head
07:44 / 24.08.05
Let me guess, is this inspired by the latest Dr Who thread? I agree that we need a Policy on spoilers, but I think it might also be useful to properly define the difference between ‘spoiler’ and ‘speculation,’ considering the ruckus that kicked off last time. At the moment, as far as I can see, people are speculating in that thread about a programme they haven’t seen, that they don’t really know anything about, that hasn’t actually been made yet. It’s a pre-broadcast thread. Apart from officially-released material, it’s *all* speculation, innit? And defined as such, rawkusboi might think about whether he really wants to keep claiming ‘insider knowledge’ and end up being banished to a special thread on his own.


But, I'm wondering if it might not be easier and more efficient to have all threads in that section considered spoiler threads unless otherwise stated...

Hm. Thing is, film threads can sometimes be started years before the films are even made. It seems like people have been gabbling away about villains in Spiderman 3 since the dawn of time. Is there a single *fact* in that thread? Has that film even started shooting? How can you spoil a film that doesn’t exist? etc

There are currently two pre-release Serenity threads in F,TV&T. *If* someone sees a film before anyone else can, like Alex Thoth and LLBIMG here, you either hold your tongue as Alex is so far managing to do, or start a whole new thread with warnings all over it, as LLBIMG has done. Which I’m not going to link to. But that seems to be working out fine.

I'd agree that threads should automatically be considered spoilerific the instant a film/television programme is available for the public to watch. Any public, anywhere, over the internet or whatever. And if the threadstarter finds it’s helpful to detail which particular region the thread is *for* in the title or abstract, then well and good. But calling all threads 'spoiler' before the film or TV programme been released, or even made, will jumble up the very few People Who Really Know Stuff with the majority of people who don't, and I can't see the point of that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:48 / 24.08.05
And defined as such, rawkusboi might think about whether he really wants to keep claiming ‘insider knowledge’ and end up being banished to a special thread on his own.

That may be the way forward - the people who want either to advertise that they have t3h Secrit Nowlege! or enjoy it could simply exchange names annd PM each other... otherwise, I'd say that speculation is not spoiling - Finderwolf, for example, reproduces a lot of web speculation, which I don't think anyone has ever complained about. It's specifically the desire to advertise one's status as insider, and thus the spoiling capacity of what one is reporting, that's the problem here for me, because it does suggest that one at least _believes_ that one is spoiling. That, I think, is the distinction there.

Once shows are launched, I think a US/UK thread division works quite nicely... digital terrestrial makes that a bit more tricky - how are people finding the Lost threads, which are our proof of concept so far? Certainly numerous, but active at different times...
 
 
Lord Morgue
09:45 / 24.08.05
What some forums do is, allow you to post with the same background colour as your text, so it shows as a solid black box until you highlight the text.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:57 / 24.08.05
Yeah - you can do that here as well. However, that still relies on a mutual concept of what a spoiler is, and people being intelligent users.
 
 
Bed Head
10:02 / 24.08.05
Yeah, that’s been kinda discussed before, LM. I don’t think it’s particularly workable, myself. It’s more an issue of what kind of discussion people want to have, being clear what a thread is *for*, rather than about finding ways to hide bits and bobs and individual posts.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:58 / 24.08.05
Would it be possible for someone to write "Speculation" in the same way that they already write "Spoilers"?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:21 / 24.08.05
It's possible, but I don't think it's an issue. Let's put our ducks in a row:

1) Speculation - uninformed speculation about what might happen next - for example "I reckon Bad Wolf is Peter Purves". Does not IMHO require any controls.

2) Spoilage - descriptions of events that have occured in episodes that have not been available for viewiing by either the majority of people on the thread or the people in the geographical area described by the thread.

e.g.

"Well, I've seen preview tapes, and (this) happens next week."

or

"You guys in the UK are going to be astonished next week, when (this) happens!"

This requires at least spoiler warnings or, in a thread where the advancement is set (i.e the Lost UK terrestrial thread, where you know that episode 4 will be discussed from 10pm tonight onwards) should simply IMHO not be done. The level of intensity will vary here - some TV shows rely on twists and shocks, which is why Lost and Doctor Who seem to have been our proofs of concept lately.

3) T3H SECRET NOWLEGE

People jockeying for geek leverage, meaning that they do not post spoiler warnings because the whhole point is that they are advertising that they or their mate Kev have seen unscreened episodes or movies.

Thus, "My pal, who is a friend of Russell T Davies, let me see the final episode, and (this) happpens", or "My mate has seen the final episode, and from what he tells me I reckon (this).

These are usually coyly allusive, but they are clearly more spoily than simple uninformed speculation based on what is already in the public domain. It was this third element over which the warriors of the beard largely lost it last time round.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:22 / 24.08.05
Can't we just label threads and have lots of new ones? I really don't see what the problem with that is. It's hardly difficult to write "season 3 US" in a title or click on new topic. So any problem with that is an image problem... are you people being vain about the appearance of an internet forum?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:57 / 24.08.05
That's precisely what we did last time, only to have people complain about it, start throwing PMs around, call each other wankers...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:58 / 24.08.05
What about... (this is fiddly but bear with me) using deleted threads for really spoilery discussions?

I start the thread to discuss season 4 of 'Bear With Me', I also start but then delete a thread for spoiler discussion which I link to in the first post of the thread where those just bursting to discuss the celebrity episode before it's aired can do, without worrying that the inattentive will trip over the thread and be scarred for life. When that season has been shown, a moderator closes the deleted thread.

Or is that too complicated?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:12 / 24.08.05
Far too complicated, given how few people are actually causing the problem here. It also leads to us having a thread which is invisible to anybody who hasn't first read the one containing the link, which itself opens up a whole new can of worms.

The only answer I can think of is that we ask thread-starters to make it clear in their opening posts what the thread is for. That includes stuff like marking out the difference between spoilers of a first/specific episode and ongoing, series-wide spoilers. If they don't do that, then moderators probably should.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:13 / 24.08.05
It creates a "priority" for the undeleted thread - although if that's a "stem" containing links... hmmm. Oh, but a stem thread would sink, as there would be nothing much to add to it.

How's the Lost thing going - that has more threads than usual (Ireland, UK, US, UK digital) - is it working?

The last time, with the warriors of the beard, the problem was that a thread originally set up specifically to discuss advance viewings of the first episode of Dr Who, and thus very sensibly labelled "Spoilers", thhen became a general Dr. Who discussion thread, with that discussion going at the pace of the terrestrial broadcasts, and thus the "Spoilers" tag was removed and a new "Spoilers" thread was set up. This upset those with T3h Secret Nowlege, apparently because not as many people were reading the Spoilers thread and thus seeng t3h secret nowlege. Unfortunately, what might have been a fairly simple act was complicated by some bad behaviour from the warriors of the beard and Hieronymus, who has the status of moderator without, for some reason, the accountability.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:15 / 24.08.05
Point being that I think that was a bit of a special case, and coould be averted next time by exercising consideration for the easily confused in the process of topic creation - for example, by putting "SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 1 ONLY". It's a bit tiresome, but possibly necessary.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:25 / 24.08.05
Actually, Haus, Hieronymus' comments in the new spoilers thread were the result of some confusion about who had initiated which moderation action and in what order. I can explain it here if it's *really* necessary, but I'd sooner boil my own tadger in vinegar than end up going through all that again.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:58 / 24.08.05
Actually, I was thinking of his bloocking tactics on the moderation and subsequent attacks on me, specifically, in subsequent Policy threads, but vinegar tadger is indeed best avoided. As long as we can hammer out some principles flexible enough to apply but simple enough for all the moderators and contributors to understand, we should be fine.

Admitting a personal interest, I'd like to avoid looking at the non-UK terrestrial threads on Lost unless I have to foor moderation, because I'm enjoying the suspense. Are they going OK? The aim was thhe the Ireland and digital convos could start earlier and then trickle doown into the UK analogue thread...
 
 
Bed Head
16:02 / 24.08.05
I’m rather clinging to the explanation that the whole Whogate fight night incident kicked off because the speculation/spoiler thing wasn’t being understood. It was Six who went a bit insane, wasn’t it? That’s how it looked from the outside, anyway. Whereas someone like Cube seemed to understand perfectly and was remarkably chilled about the whole thing. So I think it’d be a really good idea to use this thread as the basis for a page on the wiki. That’s if we can all settle on a policy that can be pointed to and followed and stuff....

So. Can we clearly tie this to *access* to a text? That’s what I was pushing for with my ‘as soon as something’s available for the public to watch’ thing. The labels on the different ‘Lost’ threads totally seem to be about defining the constituency for any subsequent discussion. It’s, like, community building. Boundary setting. Synchronising schedules, so everyone knows exactly *when* they can start talking about episode 4. It looks like a model system for TV, actually.

But what about something like the car-crash that happens in this thread? Posters are rather at cross-purposes there. And yet, it’s a thread that was started after a film had gone on general release, and the first post is all ‘I’ve just seen it, what do other people - ie, other people who’ve seen it - think?’ While it probably could have done with a spoiler warning in the title to begin with, it was still always bound to be spoilers all the way, because discussing the content of the film was what the thread was *for*. I’m kinda anti the idea that individual posts should really need spoiler space, or the dreaded black lines, after a film has been released.

Because the problems in that thread would seem kinda inevitable if you start thinking it’s possible to structure things so that people can pick their way around individual posts according to need. There’s something rather anti-discussion-board-y about the whole idea: when you post something to a thread, there’s the possibility that your post might be replied to at some point, after all. That’s going to cause problems before you even start with everyone’s milage varying as to what does ‘spoil’ things and what doesn’t.

So, personally, I’m all for setting up the assumption that threads *will* contain all manner of spoilery plot details after a film has been released, or after a TV programme has been broadcast. And the labelling of threads is for when anyone feels they need a fuller explanation of the timing that this involves.

And yer pre-broadcast, pre-release, special knowledge-y threads are something else, and people who want to have that kind of discussion should be aware of that. I don't really think there's too much demand for that kind of discussion anyway, one rolling thread could probably cover them all. It could be like the F,TV&T sin bin.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:24 / 24.08.05
The once-launched thing I think is worth considering - most threads start before a film, book or comic book is released, start with speculation about what might be in it, then go into a discussion of the content once it comes out, so there's an evolution into spoileration for those who have not yet encountered it... Possibly we have to expect that peoople should realise thhat once something is out in the public arena, there will probably be revelations about the plot &c, and that if you are planning to consume the item and do not want to find out things about it you probably should skip that thread - like the way that comic books in Comic Books generally don't have spoiler warnings... There's a common-sense element there. Spoilers, I think, come in when people are talking about episodes (or comics, or films, or books) that decent numbers of other people could not have seen - either through geography or through privileged access. So, if someone joins the SFU UK thread and starts talking about things that have been screened in the US but not the UK (even if they live in the UK and have downloaded the programme/read a fan summary or similar), tey are spoiling. I would say that somebody who had nicked the shooting script for the next episode from Alan Ball's sideboard and was quoting from it is also spoiling.

In fact, one of the things I really like about Barbelith is that a creator turning up to hawk his or her wares stiill doesn't necessarily get pure adulation, and somebody with a mate who works at the BBC doesn't necessarily get pecking order points. I feel that these are both good things and encourage a healthier viiew of the world and the people in it.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:04 / 24.08.05
This issue has come up before...
 
 
sleazenation
18:49 / 24.08.05
Personally, I'm someone who doesn't give a fig about spoilers, but i respect that some people do... It was more the large amount of Lost threads in combination with the continuing growth of file-sharing...

The problem with stranding threads out by territory/channel is that it builds artificial barriers between them. The person in the UK who watches episode 4 of lost on E4 can't go an look at the US thread because it contains spoilers for episode 5 onwards...

The trouble is that the only way round that problem i can think of would be to have a different thread for each episode which would be even more unwieldy than the current situation where we have 4-5 seperate Lost threads...

Which brings me back to the spoilers by default idea. At least if all threads were considered spoiler zones by default then there would be little cause for confusion - Spoiler-free areas would be clearly marked...
 
 
Bed Head
19:13 / 24.08.05
The problem with stranding threads out by territory/channel is that it builds artificial barriers between them. The person in the UK who watches episode 4 of lost on E4 can't go an look at the US thread because it contains spoilers for episode 5 onwards...

I don’t quite understand. I’m not seeing how that’s an *artificial* barrier. If the tension is a big deal, and sharing the tension and excitement with other lithers is all part of the fun, then you can either fall into step with one thread or another, depending on what schedule you’re watching it to. Then you're guaranteed thread-mates who are at the same stage as you. Where’s the problem with that?
 
 
sleazenation
20:00 / 24.08.05
The 'artificial' barrier I was attempting to refer to is the one between people in the US who are watching episode 4 and the ones in the UK... the people on the US thread having presumably posted what they have to say on episode 4 when it was broadcast in the US don't repost it again in the uk thread and the UK miss out on what the US people said because they run the risk of seeing spoilers for episode 5...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:00 / 24.08.05
I'd agree with that - if you have downloaded enough US shows to join the US thhread, you can do that without trouble.

The idea of making everything spoiler-friendly unless stated otherwise is a possible, although it might just lead to knee-jerk addition of NO SPOILERS to threads. I could cope with that, though - you could then have a Lost thread aimed at UK viewers titled "Lost UK - NO SPOILERS beyond current UK terrestrial episode", for example... I think it's designing discernment out of the system, but that might be necessary.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:08 / 24.08.05
Sleaze - I see you (my "I agree' was with Bed Head, however), but there's not an awful lot one can do about it. One overarching thread that is only joined if you have finished watching thhe entire series risks losing immediacy also - one can have such a thing with, say, books, but then they don't have the same scheduled set of releases...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:00 / 24.08.05
Alternatively, could we put the number of the current relevant episode in the title each week? It'd be a slight hassle, but really not that much bother, I would have thought.

I'm confused with Lost- every other week I watch the terrestrial plus E4 episodes... I'm constantly either a week ahead or a week behind.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:05 / 24.08.05
Young Stoat, there's a place you can go...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:07 / 24.08.05
Although only one week a fortnight, as it turns out.
 
 
Bed Head
21:18 / 24.08.05
the people on the US thread having presumably posted what they have to say on episode 4 when it was broadcast in the US don't repost it again in the uk thread and the UK miss out on what the US people said because they run the risk of seeing spoilers for episode 5...

Aha. Now I understand, ta. Hmm, but it wouldn’t necessarily work like that, would it? If a UK viewer wanted to see what the US people had to say about episode 4, but not see anything about episode 5, they’d just need to stop reading at a certain point, surely? At the time they were discussing episode 4, the US viewers wouldn’t have wanted to be spoiled in advance, either. And, to judge from the Dr Who thread, I would have thought it was usually pretty obvious when a new episode had been broadcast, but we might explore ways of putting markers into a thread so you can see that at a glance. That might be useful.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:44 / 24.08.05
First up, I'm afraid that I simply can't see what the problem is with segregating these threads by territory. That's worked just fine for us so far. If you're that interested in a show that you want to know what the US viewers thought, it shouldn't be too difficult to follow their thread from the start and work out when they've moved on to talking about an epsiode that you've not yet seen. There's also not anything preventing you from reading through the US thread once the series has finished airing in the UK and commenting on earlier posts which you feel may not yet have been addressed properly. Similarly, there's nothing to stop US viewers from following the progress of the UK thread and posting regarding the episodes screened so far, avoiding spoilers for future episodes.

Sleaze: Which brings me back to the spoilers by default idea. At least if all threads were considered spoiler zones by default then there would be little cause for confusion - Spoiler-free areas would be clearly marked...

No. Just... no.

The number of people posting to the Doctor Who thread who didn't want it to contain spoilers far outweighed the number of those who did. The number of people who download episodes to watch before they're aired officially is even smaller. The number of people who get to see preview tapes of episodes as part of their jobs is smaller still. As such, it should *not* be incumbent on the non-spoiler people to have to go out of their way to avoid spoilers. To say nothing of those people who won't be following these discussions and would have absolutely no idea that policy on this had changed until they'd already opened and read a squllion spoiler-thrilled threads.

Instead, the two or three people who do want to discuss spoilers should be the ones doing the leg-work here, considering that they're largely the exceptions.
 
 
sleazenation
22:05 / 24.08.05
Except, in the case of the original 'New Doctor Who' thread - my original thread was clearly marked from the get-go as cointaining spoilers from the very beginning. The thread was then high-jacked by non-spoiler people once the broadcasts began.

As haus alludes to, it may be that assuming everything contains spoilers unless otherwise stated might be a case of revising our expectations of discourse on the board, and the intellegence/intellectual vigour of many of its particpants in a downward direction, but it would make threads designed for people who desire to be free from spoilers much more evident...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:28 / 24.08.05
I strongly believe that such a move would stop people from reading and posting to the board. I the majority are told that they'll actively have to go out of their way to avoid spoilers, purely because a couple of people are incapable of holding it in for seven days, I don't think many of them would bother any more. I'm not sure I would, anyway, and I certainly wouldn't want to be a moderator in a forum that treated spoiler-filled threads as the norm.

And when you get right down to it, is it really that much of an issue? I can't help feeling that this is all a bit ridiculous - there are the Lost threads, there are the Doctor Who threads, but where else has this been such a problem that we should now be seriously talking about turning one of the basic principles of netiquette on its head?

Except, in the case of the original 'New Doctor Who' thread - my original thread was clearly marked from the get-go as cointaining spoilers from the very beginning. The thread was then high-jacked by non-spoiler people once the broadcasts began.

Well, Haus already covered this to an extent when he said that your opening post made the thread sound more like the spoilers it contained were only going to be concerning the very first episode. "So you've seen the first episode before it's screened and you want to talk about it," or something like that. I think it's also true to say that it was then some weeks before pre-broadcast spoilers for subsequent episodes began to be posted, which is why most people had come to treat it as a non-spoilers thread - really, if it was intended to be a spoilers thread througout the series that should have been made clear and there should have been more of an effort on the part of those interested in seeing it proceed in that manner to make that happen, rather than just abandoning it for weeks before suddenly reappearing with unanounced and entirely unexpected excitement-ruining material.

In an effort to try and clear this up once and for all, this is how I saw things pan out (adapted from a PM I sent to one of the relevant parties at the time):

The word 'spoilers' was removed from the original thread through a mod action initiated by me, just after I posted the request that spoilers be marked as such. Up until that point they hadn't and that was what was causing the problems, as far as I could tell - the word being present in the title seemed to be the reason why some weren't warning about the contents of their posts, which was why others were getting riled. I figured that altering the title would help to ensure that some form of warning was given in those posts that were spoiler-heavy.

I didn't actually have any idea that Haus had been trying to get the abstract altered - I must not have been around while those actions were being put forwards.

The Who thread has been a massive frustration for me, because it's something that's never happened here in the past. We've never had to deal with the issue of members of the board who are associated with the press posting specific details about plots from episodes that they've seen on preview tapes before.

As I read it, the original purpose of the thread was to discuss the first episode, and the first episode only, spoiler-fashion. I'm fairly sure that's how virtually everybody else saw it, too, which is why the number of people posting to it suddenly increased once it had officially aired. Up until recently, Cube's 'spoilers' weren't *actually* spoilers - they were more hints than anything else. As such, they weren't that big of a deal. That changed slightly when he started making direct references to the actions of characters who were at least two episodes away from even being introduced, which is what caused the relative flood of complaints - I haven't bothered counting it up, but a significant proportion of the people taking part in the thread voiced their anger at that. And I agree with them - I think that this was a little out of order. There was no way that anyone other than the two or three people who'd got to see the shows weeks in advance could even get involved in theorising about future plotlines with him.

So that was why I put the topic title up for moderation, figuring that as long as spoiler warnings were given in the posts, everything should be fine. Then Six’s post popped up, the one that I set up the new spoilers-only thread with. That post doesn’t appear to be speculation at all, as he claims, but instead bears all the hallmarks of a complete plot synopsis. The trailer for next week’s episode only serves to reinforce this suspicion. That’s taking spoilers to a ridiculous extreme, in my opinion, and it really wasn’t fair on the non-spoiler crowd that a post *that* detailed should be there to be tripped over by accident. And when it comes right down to it, he could – and probably should – have simply linked to the original source, rather than posting the entire thing verbatim.

So the removal of 'spoilers' from the original thread's title and the starting of a new spoilers thread were individual events, and the first of them was never intended to be a doorway to the second.


Okay?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:36 / 24.08.05
Really, which is less bothersome - the suggestion I made earler that

"we ask thread-starters to make it clear in their opening posts what the thread is for. That includes stuff like marking out the difference between spoilers of a first/specific episode and ongoing, series-wide spoilers. If they don't do that, then moderators probably should"

or asking the entire board to flip the entire notion of spoilers on its head? Is starting a thread with the words "this thread is for details and spoilers about episodes X-Y of the new series of Pocky Eats a Bun" really so difficult?
 
 
Smoothly
23:07 / 24.08.05
This is mostly a problem with narrative TV series, isn't it. So just to back up to this idea a moment:

The trouble is that the only way round that problem i can think of would be to have a different thread for each episode which would be even more unwieldy than the current situation where we have 4-5 seperate Lost threads. - sleazenation

Would it be that unwieldy? You'd get more threads, sure - perhaps 6, 12 or 24 threads depending on the show. But that's only one a week. And is it just me, or doesn't that obviate a lot of the problems?
At the moment, to find out what everyone - wherever they were - was thinking about 'Lost' at the end of ep 1, you'd have to read 4 different threads. But if a thread for 'Lost ep 1' had been started in the US when the first ep first went out there, people could join it whenever they had seen it. That thread would always be 'fresh' in that sense; it won't have moved on to other things.
That would be much better, I think. This way I would have ignored all of the Lost threads last year as they appeared from the US. Then, once I had seen the pilot in the UK, I could bump the relevant thread and it would all be sitting there waiting for me - reading as if we were all on the same page. Know what I mean?

I agree with Bed Head that there's something a rather anti-discussion-board-y about spoiler spaces and trying to juggle lots of different threads at once. By having a thread per episode, you can exploit one of the cool things about a massage board like this. Threads are open-ended, always incomplete, capable of being bumped years later if someone happens to have come up to speed with the discussion.

Am I missing something?
 
  

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