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Games and Gameplay - How do we think it's doing?

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
15:34 / 04.08.05
Darlings,

As a new moderator, I'm wondering what sort of approach to take on moderating G&G, and what we're aiming for. I think at the moment that my concern is that there are some threads which would nbot be entirely out of place in, say, the Head Shop, and some others that really take advantage of the space provided by G&G - Killer7, Why do you Like Football, for example. However, a lot of this stuff is really, to my mind, not in the conversation exclusively because of subject matter, and I was wondering, I guess, how far we ought to modify the original remit of the forum, and how as moderators we should appproach it. I'm thinking of posts like:

I'm very much in to WoW at the moment, got to be the best MMO i've played lately.

I have though given up on SWG, so if City of Heroes isn't an SOE run game i might well give it a go...


How do we respond to a post like that (in the thread on "City of Heroes")? Is there a place for single-game threads which are basically by-gamers-for-gamers and staccato in nature?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:53 / 04.08.05
I'm not massively happy about those posts as thread-starters, I must say. That's why I've asked in-thread for some actual, solid information to be provided. Same goes for the Katamari Damancy thread. Both do the same thing that occasionally annoys me in Comics and FTV&T - they only allow those who already have some knowledge of the subject matter to contribute to or even to make sense of the thread.

Opening posts on specific games should provide some details and opinion on that game, as far as I'm concerned. Start a post in a new thread by asking if anybody else is looking forwards to or currently playing the game in question, by all means, but also tell us why you're looking forwards to it, why you're playing it. Explain the system for those who've not experienced or heard about it yet. Give us some background into it.

Put some bloody effort into it. I don't want to see threads start off as being a bunch of geeks talking to each other in a way that automatically excludes everybody else. If that's what they turn into eventually, that may not be as much of an issue - it'd suggest that the non-gamers weren't interested in the subject anyway - but threads should not be designed to exclude non-gamers from the very first post.

I'd say much the same for the Megadrive Emulation thread. While it's not anything like as depressingly vague and empty as those two, I'd still have prefered to see it open not just with a link and set of instructions, but also some starting points for discussion - the pros and cons of playing a game through an enmulator rather than its native hardware, or the legality of doing so, or the implications of emulation on current console development.

I think at the moment that my concern is that there are some threads which would nbot be entirely out of place in, say, the Head Shop

If you're arguing that they should therefore be moved to Headshop, I'm going to have top disagree. Headshop shouldn't be the only place on the board where people exercise their intelligence or dsiplay their theory bitch credentials. We shouldn't be thinking that a particular thread isn't best suited to its current location because it asks people to put too much thought into the subject. Doing so damns the forum to forever contain discussion of a lower level than other areas of the board, and is possibly why there's a distinct split between the Spectacle fora and Headshop/Lab/Spec.

Also, it gives us something to point to if we think the forum isn't living up to expectations.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:30 / 04.08.05
If you're arguing that they should therefore be moved to Headshop, I'm going to have top disagree

I wasn't.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:45 / 04.08.05
Fair enough. Wasn't sure because of the distinction you made between Headshop-style threads and those that take full advantage of G&G's remit.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:35 / 04.08.05
Some ideas about problems with videogame threads: please tell me if you disagree.

1) Are computer games a bit of an expense compared to music, films, books etc? What I mean to say is, are they exclusive by their very nature? Because I think almost anybody can switch on a TV and watch a film or program; anyone can go to a library and get a book out.

Whereas while you can to an extent get to a know a game by playing it free, at a friend's house or from off the back of a lorry or getting it from a library, in most cases you will have to own/rent it yourself, yes? You'll generally have to pay money for it, ergo to enjoy the G&Gplay forum you have to spend money?

2) Another thing is the level of interest that someone might have in videogaming in general. From what I know it seems to be either very high or very low: people either seem to have no interest whatsoever, or be a little obessed. This might also seem to affect the inclusiveness (or otherwise) of the forum.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:49 / 04.08.05
1. I find reading to be a much more expensive pastime than gaming. Individual games are more expensive than individual books when bought new, but they can be borrowed, bought from bargain bins, pirated or whatever, and they last longer if they're any good. I'm still playing GTA:SA; I'd have read the equivalent expenditure in books long ago and I don't believe I'm an unusually fast reader for Barbelith. Plus a lot of games have practically indefinite lifespan (thinking mostly here of pencil-and-paper RPGs, a copy of GURPS will last you as long as the binding holds out).

2. Not really IMO. Just like with comics there are a lot of people who are interested but not fanatical. They may not start a lot of threads but they'll read them and make contributions. I don't, personally, know more than a couple of people who are absolutely mad about games, but I know quite a few who play a bit and will throw references to the last game they played into a conversation in the same way that they would refer to the last album they listened to or the last film they saw.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:39 / 04.08.05
I'd say that I'm interested in games but not fanatical... probably more so than in most sports and less so than football... the only game I've bought for anything like full-price lately was Half-Life 2, so in general I pay about as much for a game as for a paperback, more or less.

Randy: To expand a bit - I was racing out of the office. I meant that something like Ganesh's thread on gender in PBMs and MMORPGs felt a bit headshoppy, whereas something like "what does football mean to you" feels more like something that would only fit in G&G - it would be rotted too quickly in conversation - and is delivering value.

In some cases, maybe we should be encouraging people to talk about genres - what is your favourite first-person shoot-em-up, say - or comparisons - what's the best game EVAR?... Which is not to say that there is not enough of interest in some games to sustain a thread - your Killer7 and MGS threads demonstrate that, and the Katamari Damacy one could probably be coaxed into something more, say on the drives of novelty and familiarity in game design - but just that in some cases broadening the field makes more sense.

Hmm... I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling like the discussions could do with a bit of a spanking.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
00:21 / 05.08.05
Legba> I'm in complete agreement with fridge on point the first. I doubt many people here bat an eyelid at the thought of spending four or five quid for a couple of hours' entertainment at the cinema, or a tenner on a paperback. Of the four games I've started specific threads for, I picked one up for a tenner and another for a fiver. The third can probably be grabbed new for somewhere between those two prices and the fourth was a brand new title that cost £27 and has already lasted me over ten hours. The 'games are expensive' thing - well, they are if you're comparing them to other items on a cost per unit basis, but that doesn't hold up when you consider their lifespan.

And that's a thread that could be started, right there.

Anyway, it's not currently a question of a lack of discussion (although that bothers me, too) - it's about how much thought people are giving to their posts. In the two cases mentioned at the start of this thread, it's people mentioning a game that they already own but not actually talking about it to any worthwhile extent - that's the issue.

On point the second, obsession doesn't come into it. Both threads were started by people who are apparently enjoying the games in question (or the first in the series, in the case of KD) - again, it's just an issue of not enough effort being made. This isn't something peculiar to games, by the way - see this thread in FTV&T that didn't have any actual content until the fourth post in.

And even if some are a little obsessed, I don't see why that should prevent them from being able to construct posts that can be read by the non-obsessed.

Haus> Gotcha. I'm a bit on the defensive as I'm really very aware of the gulf that exists between some of the better threads in the forum (which, against my expectations, have largely been the sport-related ones) and some of the others (annoyingly, videogames-related ones).

You're probably right in saying that a few looser threads could get the traffic flowing a bit quicker. I'm just worried that we could end up with list threads straight away. It's not like there's not room for them, though - I mean, we've got general threads about westerns and zombie flicks in FTV&T.

Was considering doing a bit of a carpet bombing, starting up threads on each of the games that I've been putting time into recently. I can do that and I think I can make them interesting enough to justify doing so, but I wouldn't want to be seen to be smothering the forum and, given the lack of responses to those that I started on a couple of older games, I've no idea if the new ones would get anybody posting to them or starting their own along similar lines. If there is a problem with games, it's that they demand a significant investment of time, and I presume this is why it's only the K7 and MGS2 threads that got a decent response - one brand new game, one part of a famous and popular series.

As far as how moderators should approach the threads which they don't feel are living up to our expectations, I'd say either pop into them with a firm but polite request that people raise their game, or else try and encourage peopl to do so by submitting their own comments on the topic at hand.
 
 
semioticrobotic
02:23 / 05.08.05
Also Lega, keep in mind: When you say 'games are expensive,' you may be equating 'games' with 'videogames,' and this is not necessarily the limited scope of the forum. 'Games' can be board and RPG, which don't (always) cost as much as the vids, and the 'running' thread is proof that certain threads can be enjoyed by anyone regardless of the related cost (in this case, somewhat minimal) of the highlighted subject.

All in all, I'm pleased with a handful of threads that have appeared so far, but I'm in agreement that perhaps the bar can be raised slightly. How to talk seems to be much more the issue than what to talk about, as everyone seems to have offered some interesting threads during this period of relative infancy.

I like the neat balance we're trying to strike between discussion on specific games (Killer7) and discussion on more general trends/issues with gaming (MMORPGs & Society, narrative issues, essence of play, etc.).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:12 / 05.08.05
How to talk seems to be much more the issue than what to talk about

My thoughts exactly. I don't see any reason why a single-game thread couldn't be as in-depth and worthwhile as a single-movie or single-book thread. It's the content that's important.
Yes, it could be better, but at the moment it's still nice to have a place online to talk about gaming with people who aren't just boasting about their frags or questioning each other's sexuality.

I also think there's an element of tentativeness- people are still not entirely sure what's appropriate, and because it's a new forum don't want to be the first person to start a thread and get jumped on because "aha! THAT's the kind of thing we were trying to avoid!"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:52 / 05.08.05
I don't see any reason why a single-game thread couldn't be as in-depth and worthwhile as a single-movie or single-book thread. It's the content that's important.

I agree - however, whereas a mystery novel might be held up against perhaps a thousand other well-known mystery novels, there are at present perhaps a dozen well-known MMORPGs, so the shared experience is perhaps closer to the surface, and it's harder too maintain focus on the game itself. Also, a single-game thread, I think, may be more prone to "It's great!" "It's shit!"...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:06 / 05.08.05
On a different note, it's heartening to see that a mod request I put in about four minutes ago has already been approved. Compare that to recent complaints made about the time it takes (or took- I think mods have since been added) to get changes approved in the Switchboard. At that end of things, it seems we're doing something right.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:44 / 05.08.05
Having a load of moderators who are recent additions (so not absent from the board) and geekazoids (and so in front of computers).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:33 / 06.08.05
OK, so while we keep busy with Electric Lucifer (bless), I'm wondering about something like the Urban Dead thread. Randy asked for more detail about the game, but it strikes me that the people involved in the thread may simply want to use it to describe what they are doing, plan team-ups and share Urban Dead trivia, in which case should it be in G&G or Conversation?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:04 / 06.08.05
I'm fairly happy with it staying in G&G. That sort of thread doesn't necessarily have to end up being nothing but conversation - there's a thread on another board devoted to the Halo 2 clan that I'm a part of, and while it is often little more than a group of people having a chat about the games they played last night, it occasionally branches out to include discussion on which gametypes work best and why, technical issues, stuff about game balance, and so on.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that somebody would start a thread about a game that they're enjoying and not want to make it sound appealing to as many people as possible - the more people you get involved, the better chance the discussion has of really taking off. That's why I'm kind of confuddled about there not being any basic desriptions in some thread openers.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:11 / 06.08.05
Well, I think its about whether you want to involve a wider audience or keep it to a discussion thing with people who are doing it anyway, I guess...

Hey, it's programmed by my old mucker Kevan. Sweet! Sorry, offtopic.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:08 / 13.08.05
In the sex and relationships forum thread I snarked:

Yes, and so far G&G is a roaring success...

and was quite rightly pulled up by E. Randy Smith:

Any time you feel like contributing a bit more to it in order to help it pick up, be my guest.

I've just found it a very strange place and react to it in much the same way as I do to The Temple, the people in there are mainly talking about stuff I neither understand or care about (pretty much every single thread about a computer game), I keep thinking of starting one to discuss the whole thing about Malcolm Glazer and British football and what are the reasons for the fuss and are they valid, but I know neither enough about the culture of football, or the club, or Glazer to be able to frame it in any intelligent way.

It all seems a bit, I don't know, specialist?
 
 
Char Aina
08:35 / 13.08.05
i dont know that it needs to be, though.
if you are not sure of the facts of a thing you could use the thread to expand your knowledge.
i for one have no idea about malcolm glazer and would prolly find it interesting to learn.

i think the forum should be treated with respect, but not so much respect that you feel asking simple questions would sully it.

perhaps if you really have no idea whatsoever how to frame yor inquiry you could start a thread for simple sport questions?
we have something like that in every forum and they seem pretty popular.
 
 
Quantum
09:09 / 13.08.05
...just wanted to point out, volume-wise, the Head Shop has had one (that's 1) post in the last 36 hours, G&G significantly more than that. It's not dying yet.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:43 / 13.08.05
Flowers> the people in there are mainly talking about stuff I neither understand or care about (pretty much every single thread about a computer game)

Firstly, that's hardly a fault with the forum. You're not interested in talking or reading about videogames. Fine. Don't. I'm not interested in discussing fashion, but I don't make a complaint about that area of the board not doing anything for me and frame it as though it's anything other than my own problem.

Secondly, take a look at the index page. Right this minute, the first ten threads are about

RPG
RPG (general)
Cricket
Videogame (general)
RPG (general)
Videogame
Videogame (general)
Videogame (general)
Football
Football

That's not specialist - there's a mix of things being discussed there which is totally fitting with the forum description, and half of the threads are about general issues surrounding games, nothing that you need to have any prior knowledge of specific games to understand.

Sylph> The biggest ongoing problem I see the forum having is quality stuff sinking beneath the anecdotes.

I think the anecdotes are mostly an issue in the tabletop (or non-videogame) RPG threads. Is that not just to do with the nature of RPGs - what they are leads to discussion about them being almost entirely anecdotal? The only other topics of conversation I could see springing from them would be stuff about systems of rules or storyline creation/progression.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
10:09 / 15.08.05
As a humble user, I'm enjoying the G&G forum immensely. I've been reading quite alot of the videogames threads, and as someone with an ongoing interest in computer game 'culture' but not much current experience of games, I'm not finding them 'difficult.

I would agree with Randy that thus far I think the sports threads have been more varied/incisive.... 'meaty', for want of a better word. I'm quite interested as to why this seams to be the case. (and I'm not sitting here feeling smug about that. Honestly, not that much.)

Perhaps it's that as the less-favoured/slightly more controversial inclusion in the forum, people have felt the need to raise their game a little?

I don't think this is a bad thing at all. (as long as G&G has space for a range of approaches, and doesn't shoot conversational threads down on sight.)

Perhaps, and this is a personal one, there's an excitement in being able to talk sport in environment that's culturally pretty different to alot of sports forums.

Mind you, as pointed out above, that applies equally to videogames threads.

Hmm. Will have a think, but currently think it's certainly justifying its addition to the board in providing both a space for different threads, and a different space for threads which might have gone elsewhere. I suspect that 'nesh's thread, for example, has taken a different route than it would have done had it been a Head Shop thread.

I like the possibility/evidence of approaching subjects with a 'sports/games' focus, and seeing where that takes analysis/discussion.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:51 / 15.08.05
Personally I've been posting quite a bit in the tabletop rpg-based thread in G&G, as well as the enjoyable Urban Dead thread. I think it's thoroughly worthwhile.

I might suggest that the various game-threads in Conversation might have a better home in G&G. I've noticed some people don't like the "Only Talk In Movie Quotes", this kind of thing might be more suited to Game.

Perhaps?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:13 / 15.08.05
No. Definitely not.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:53 / 15.08.05
Sorry - to expand on that:

One thing that Games and Gameplay should under no circumstance become is a forum in which games are played. This is primarily because game threads are profoundly annoying for those not eager to name a new type of cheese, and will continue to be so whichever forum they up in. More seriously, G&G should be for discussion of games and sport, and efforts should where possible be made to keep that discussion at a level that justifies the existence of a separate forum (which I think making it a dumping-ground for games would more generally degrade) and also to keep it for discussion of games rather than actual games, in the same way that the movie quotes game was not put in Film, TV and Theatre.
 
 
semioticrobotic
13:33 / 15.08.05
I agree with Haus -- G&G should be for discussing games, not playing them. Besides, I think the games people play in Convo are essential to maintaining that forum's feel/appeal.
 
 
Quantum
14:19 / 15.08.05
I am about to go and start a bevy of threads on other game genres not currently covered (Scrabble, Petanque, Car Passenger games) in an attempt to widen the range of G&G. Am I being hopelessly sad? Does anyone but me play these sorts of games?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:29 / 15.08.05
Only one way to find out.

However, a cautionary note. Why would you want to talk about scrabble, for example? Are we going to have a thread beignning "Does anyone else play scrabble?". followed by a couple of dozen "I do!"s? Maybe better to look, for example, at why people play scrabble - what they get out of it - and/or how they play scrabble - online, at family get-togethers, in the pub - something with a bit of purchase.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:47 / 15.08.05
Most of those types of "game" thread are basically list threads anyway... I concur that while there IS a place for them, that place is definitely in the Conversation. And Mornington Crescent and Mafia (should anyone decide the emotional trauma is worth another go) seem quite comfortable in Creation.

The Urban Dead thread's definitely a G&G thing, though- it's all discussion of strategy, anecdotal experience ABOUT the game, comments on its design and good/bad points- yup, that says G&G to me.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:02 / 16.08.05
E. Randy Smith Flowers> the people in there are mainly talking about stuff I neither understand or care about (pretty much every single thread about a computer game)

Firstly, that's hardly a fault with the forum. You're not interested in talking or reading about videogames. Fine. Don't. I'm not interested in discussing fashion, but I don't make a complaint about that area of the board not doing anything for me and frame it as though it's anything other than my own problem.


Whoah tiny dancer! Haus asked for people's opinions on G&G, I gave my opinion and you'll notice the complete lack of a demand that G&G be shut down immediately just because I don't have much interest in it.

Secondly, take a look at the index page. Right this minute, the first ten threads are about

RPG
RPG (general)
Cricket
Videogame (general)
RPG (general)
Videogame
Videogame (general)
Videogame (general)
Football
Football

That's not specialist - there's a mix of things being discussed there which is totally fitting with the forum description, and half of the threads are about general issues surrounding games, nothing that you need to have any prior knowledge of specific games to understand.


Really, you don't need to know about a game to take part in a discussion about it. And isn't RPG specialist in the same way as talking about, I don't know, conjuring elementals in the Temple would be specialist?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:08 / 16.08.05
Can we stop this "tiny dancer" bullshit, please? Every other day somebody decides to throw it out and it was never that brilliant a put-down in the first place.

Haus asked for opinions on how the forum is doing and what can be done to improve it. That wasn't your opinion on the forum - it was your opinion on games talk in general. You're not interested in it. How does knowing that help us to know how the forum is doing?

Really, you don't need to know about a game to take part in a discussion about it. And isn't RPG specialist in the same way as talking about, I don't know, conjuring elementals in the Temple would be specialist?

Missing the point in a rather spectacular way, there. Let's look at those threads I marked as 'general'. One is about the role of the player as an assistant storyteller in RPGs. Quite easy to understand the basics of that discussion, I would have thought - it's about particpatory storytelling, nothing more.

The first videogame one is also about narrative, only this time asking how a strong storyline can be maintained while still offering the player the room to make choices. Again, nothing specific to any one game, or even any one genre of game.

So no, you don't need an in-depth or specialist knowledge to understand or get involved in those threads, because they're not discussions which are asking for directions on how things are done, they're threads asking for ideas on how things could be done. All that sort of discussion requires to be a part of is the ability to exercise some imagination.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:28 / 16.08.05
OK, there was me thinking I was talking about the forum (of which it's content is a part) but you've set me straight. You know what I'm talking about better than me. That's a relief.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:27 / 16.08.05
Flowers, if you want to know about the Glazer affair, start a frickin' thread about it, or, as Toskie suggested, start a "Random Sport Q&A" thread. Make it clear in the introductory post that you know little about football and/or football's finance. Accept the risk that something may not make sense to you, and may require explanation or further reading. If you're really unsure about the basics, ask a friend. I'd be happy to take you through the fundamentals, and I'm hardly the only person you know who cares about football.

Accept, however, that the forum is not meant to be pitched exclusively at your level of familiarity, just as some threads in the Temple are intended for people who already know about the basics of magic and want to discuss specific acts or processes, and the Head Shop is not aimed purely at the hypothetical smart ten-year old. The value you get both from reading and contributing to a thread will vary. Quite simply, it's not all about you, and its success or failure cannot be determined entirely by how useful you find it. Therefore, either step away from your previous:

Yes, and so far G&G is a roaring success...

snark, justify its failure in your opinion according to criteria other than the value it offers you personally, or (and this is an option), have some quiet time and think about what you're getting out of what is turning rapidly into a pointless and personal scrap in the Policy.

Randy, don't rise. Really.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:38 / 16.08.05
The 'G&G Stupid Questions' thread is a good idea which I didn't notice, I've kicked it off already. As for the rest, I don't understand quite why there's the histrionics as I was simply offering my opinion, as is asked for in the summary. Everyone on Barbelith finds different fora have different worth to them and I do after all check the 'Ashes' thread in G&G. I'm sorry to the pair of you but I just don't see what I've done wrong here... I suggest we take this to PMs if there is any need for it to go further...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:40 / 16.08.05
Oh, for heaven's sake. What you did wrong was to suggest that the forum was a failure, and then when challenged on that describing why it did not make you happy rather than providing any substantiation of your original position whatever. It appears that your original position was in fact mere histrionics on your part, and can be discarded as such. Which is why I suggested that Randy not rise to it - it's irrelevant to a profitable discussion of the forum's value and what can be done to make it better more generally.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:14 / 17.08.05
For crying out loud...

In the sex and relationships forum thread I snarked:

Yes, and so far G&G is a roaring success...

and was quite rightly pulled up by E. Randy Smith:

Any time you feel like contributing a bit more to it in order to help it pick up, be my guest.
 
  

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