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Political Correctness - collation and discussion

 
  

Page: 12(3)456

 
 
sleazenation
14:48 / 01.08.05
M - I think the idea is that if we all accept that the term political correctness is currently used predominently by the right, that is already showing a level of authority to the notion has among that group. It is then incumbent upon anyone disputing claims that it is a term used predominently by the right, either now or at some point in the past to show some evidence that it was used predominently by the left.

This is of course, taking for granted that we can if not agree at least identify roughly what we are all referring to when we use such unhelpfully broad terms as right and left. It is also helpful if we all make discrete whether we are referring to simply the term 'political correctness' itself or a specific set of behaviours that we identify as being 'politically correct', and if the later, go some way to delineate what specific set of behaviours we are referring to...
 
 
m
17:33 / 01.08.05
Is 'progressive' any better a term than 'right' or 'left'? Doesn't it just mean "lefter".
 
 
m
18:47 / 01.08.05
Sleaze: The link that Nina provided includes some evidence that 'PC' was at one time used positvely by the left (are we calling that "good pc"?), and the Women's Aid Organization
(http://www.wao.org.my/news/20050106talkp_pc.htm)
seems to think it's a good thing, and I swear to god that I remember the American left using it positively in the early nineties. I wish I had more, but the positive usage's ("good PC") just not gonna appear on the internet as much as the negative one since it fell out of usage before the internet was in full swing. Although I can't prove that it was ever the sole property of the left, several people do seem to have encountered the term in a positive light, and I can't imagine that it was co-opted from the right.

Sorry if my language is getting confusing, but I just don't have the terminology to make it any clearer. Let me know if you need clarification.
 
 
sleazenation
20:31 / 01.08.05
Sorry if my language is getting confusing, but I just don't have the terminology to make it any clearer. Let me know if you need clarification.

No worries M - I think confusing language is one of the inherant problems of discussing disputed terminology as we all attempt to interrogate that terminology and any underlying assumptions linked to it.
 
 
sleazenation
21:29 / 01.08.05
Outside of that, I think we are at an impasse - the date the article you and nina have cited appears to indicate it was written/published in 2003. It appears to be a recent, poorly written and, in my view, mistaken attempt to talk to define 'good political correctness' and 'bad political correctness', which, to my mind, doesn't really do much to establish any kind of primacy for 'political correctness' as a particularly widespread term used by 'the left' at some point in the past before it was siezed by 'the right'.

Which isn't to say that the it is impossible that term didn't have some limited currency in 'the left' circles at some point in the past before being widely adopted by 'the right', or that it was a term applied to a group of principle or practices advocated by those on the 'left' by those on the 'right'. Nor is it cerain the term was definitely a creation of comentators on 'the right'. We just seem to be lacking in evidence either way...
 
 
m
21:51 / 01.08.05
There's a link at the end of that article to some kind of liguistic history site that's got some interesting stuff. I think that it's quoted in one of the posts in the last thread that Haus linked to.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:14 / 01.08.05
I think there's an suggestion here that because we've always confronted a phrase as negative it must always have been negative and thus meaningless.

I think that this link was unfairly dismissed in the last thread and in this case we would benefit from the testimony of those who are older than us because most of the sources I read on this subject relate purely to its use now. In a discussion like this the presumption that it has only ever been negative is unhelpful, just as it's negative to assume that the phrase can be used without its current dominant negative connotations.

Primarily though, the moderator inside me is wondering what the purpose of this thread currently is. Are you trying to claim that people shouldn't attempt to instill the phrase "politically correct" with positivity? Personally I don't see an inherent problem with attempting to place some meaning and context there. At the moment it exists as a shorthand insult that judging by the link and sdv's post earlier is consistently taken out of the context that left radicals originally meant for it. I suspect that it's fallen into wide misuse and we don't know that because most people who dislike its current use are too young to remember the meaning of it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:15 / 01.08.05
And additionally people are perpetuating its misuse by using phrases like "pc hell".
 
 
sdv (non-human)
12:35 / 02.08.05
The term PC is inherently arbitrary - whether it is used by liberals, rightists or leftists (and these differences still do exist contrary to PW's earlier statement). All social and political agendas have used the term positively at some time or other. The crucial point to recognize is that what the term describes has had no negative effects on this society. Where Nina, myself and others may think of the negative connotations which certain social and political positions can raise, nonetheless even within these areas positive connotations can be identified.

The question that interests me is not this but why the strange attractor that is PC, with all it's ambiguity is still such a site for political struggle.

Why do liberals and the right so earnestly want to fight over something which by nature they loath ? Is this because they know that by engaging in the struggle over PC they will end up making small but still significant compromises ?

Are there any singular instances which can be said to be reactionary advances? (Apart perhaps from Blair's support for pro-religion laws... I can't think of any.)
s
 
 
Cat Chant
14:44 / 02.08.05
Why do liberals and the right so earnestly want to fight over something which by nature they loathe?

Thank you, that's an excellent question and one I'd like to see a sustained response to in this thread.

I think it's been amply demonstrated in the last several posts that "political correctness" is a term whose provenance, history, and secondary meaning are multiple, blurry and nigh-on irrecoverable (although I have a short comic by Roberta Gregory on the history of left-wing positive uses of the term in the 1970s/1980s, which I'll try and get to scan in some time). By 'secondary meaning', I mean, sort of, the way that some terms position their speakers more-or-less accurately on a political map, in that certain terms (heteropatriarchy, phallogocentrism) are shorthand for a whole historical discourse/ mode of analysis which produced them. (If you don't go along with French-post-structuralist-inflected feminism, you probably won't see phallogocentrism as a problem, for example.)

So 'PC' seems to me to remain an important* site for political struggle because (1) it is perceived by many people as a "badge" signifying that its wearer/user is in reactionary opposition to (a) a politics of representation and (b) increased civil rights for minorities, conceived broadly as including the refashioning of social languages so as not to naturalize or normalize culturally privileged positions (such as whiteness, heterosexuality, maleness, non-transness, etc). What the term designates before** its 'badge' meaning, though, is a certain anxiety over the fundamental questions posed by a politics of representation: the relationships between vocabulary and violence (which terms do violence to which people?), the relationships between expression and ideas (is it possible to express racist ideas in non-racist language?) the relationships between language and power (who has the right to use which words? Who has earned mastery over which subcultural dialects? Which terms are prosecutable under UK legislation about "incitement to racial hatred"?) - and the questions which, as I've said, are bothering me at the moment, which is how do we talk about, say, race, when this country (particularly since the July bombings) is persistently determined to demonstrate, over and over again, its total lack of a vocabulary for multiculturalism?

And these questions are really important, and emotive, and permanently open to an extent that many political questions aren't, at least under the law of the UK ("should women have equal pay? should I be allowed to refuse to hire black people?"). So... Damn, this was so clear when I started the post. But the reason, I think, that PC remains a strange attractor, and a site for political contestation, is this combination of the imprecision with which it attests to some form (but which?) of thinking about the politics of representation, together with the importance and the unanswerability of the questions it raises... I think the way that posts on this thread keep going back to personal experience and anecdotes illustrates that: the way that most discussion about the politics of language is framed (in terms, for example, of harm to the "victim" of racist/homophobic language) means there's always going to be a counter-example to any point made ("Hah! Queers aren't as fragile as you think, because my friend Peter's nickname is Peter the Poof, and he thinks it's funny!")

*I'm not sure how important it is for me, but this is the first thread in the Headshop to grow to three pages so quickly for a while, so I think sdv has a point about the earnest desire to fight about it.

**I'm not sure whether this really is 'before' the "badge" meaning of 'PC', but just for the sake of argument...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:38 / 03.08.05
Indeed earlier, Haus, I myself used the phrase "PC Hell" and you yourself later accused me of seeing PC as a "monad"; both of which suggest that PC can be seen as an independent force of some kind -- which is one of the reasons why I said I personally didn't want to be side-tracked by such considerations and suggested they would be more relevant to the Temple. But again, I've typed enough and I REALLY don't want to get side-tracked.

Fair enough. Hooever, I think you might want to look at possible definitions both of "entity" and "monad". Compare, for example, the World Trade Organisation with feminism. The World Trade Organisation can, I think, be described as an entity without that having any implications in a Temple-esque fashion. More on this later


However, I distinctly remember her often coming home upset and annoyed that some of her smaller-minded colleagues had virtually and wrongly accused her of implementing a "PC Hell", when she clearly wasn't. Indeed, in fact she was (thankfully) implementing new policy dictated by both the changing times AND the Law which would make working life better for ALL concerned-- for the record, the only difference (as far as I can see) between her colleagues comments with my post in the Greenpeace Viral Ad thread are the intent and (therefore) the context with which we used the phrase, "PC Hell".

OK. Let's take a look at this. Your mother's colleagues accused her of creating a "PC Hell". You, in the examples you gave of "PC Hell", also accused somebody of creating a "PC Hell". However, the actions of those who accused your mother were wrong - both incorrect and undesirable - whereas your actions and the actions of your friends were right - correct and desirable - and advanced the cause of free speech.

Now, what was the distinguishing characteristic here? In one case, your mother's, the changes in behaviour she was demanding were apparently mandated by law to some extent, and thus one could say that this was a necessary application of legal compliance in the workplace rather than personal choice. However, we have already established that you believe all censorship, by which term you have previously identified any action that contradicts or seeks to prevent somebody else's freedom of expression, is wrong, and therefore presumably that the law is wrong in any case where it does this. Also, the issue was not purely one of legal compliance, since the policy was also dictated by "the changing times" - that is, there was a social component that was applied essentially due to the personnel department's feelings (based on a number of inputs) on what was acceptable behaviour.

Now, to return to your example: let us assume for a moment that the person who did not laugh at your friend's joke was not doing so because she wanted him to feel bad, or because she simply enjoyed "censoring/silencing/slating" somebody, or because she had simply (best case scenario) misunderstood what was and was not acceptable. This third option seems to be supported by your subsequent revelation that she apologised for her hasty words, but it seems odd in that case that she was creating a PC Hell rather than simply making a factual error . In any case, this led to your (correct) judgement that she had created a PC Hell, thus:

It is the use of something which was supposed to force us to address the language we have inherited through years of bigotry, fear, and ignorance, in such a way that it accuses innocent people of moral and often linguistic crimes they haven't committed, and / or forcibly silences people (which is never a good thing).

Likewise, if we go back to Greenpeace, your contention was that questioning whether the advert harmed its cause by appearing to present a picture of the relationship between Blair and Bush as homosexual and by extension play on negative associations people may have regarding homosexual sex was creating another PCH:

I think my gut feeling is that while the ad may contribute in a minor way to such negative stereotypes, we may be dangerously close to PC Hell on this one..

That is, it seems, that the analysis was, again:

the use of something which was supposed to force us to address the language we have inherited through years of bigotry, fear, and ignorance, in such a way that it accuses innocent people of moral and often linguistic crimes they haven't committed, and / or forcibly silences people (which is never a good thing).

We have yet to understand exactly how raising the question of whether the advert is less effective or less successful because of its confused representation of the sexualities of Blair and Bush is "silencing", which is a problem that we keep coming up against in your conception of PC Hell, and which I don't think you have been able satisfactorily to clarify yet. vide:

I'm still struggling to understand why the suggestion that something may have homophobic undertones is silencing debate, rather than extending it. If somebody feels at that point that they are unable to discuss this analysis, is that, to return to m's point, the fault of the analyst? I think this may be the result of a misunderstanding - you are responding to the question:

why is it "politically correct" (Hell - ed) to silence Hitler jokes, but not "politically correct" (Hell - ed) to silence reactions to Hitler jokes?

As if it were asking "why do you (Paranoidwriter) try to silence us (people on Barbelith)"? It is not this question - AFAICT, the only person who has suggested that Barbelith User A is attempting to silence Barbelith User B is yourself, when you described what was happening in the Greenpeace thread as "a form of censorship". In fact, the question is asking, specifically, why freedom of speech extends to your friend's right to make the funny, but does not extend to the third party's right to query its use, in the same way, in fact, that the Greenpeace ad is free speech, but questioning its message is slating/deafening/silencing/censorship.


So, let's recap briefly. You believe that a series of actions and behaviours can be identified as Politically Correct in a good way - these being the sort of actions and behaviours underpinning your mother's actions in creating a more socially just workplace. Fair enough. However, you also believe that such a thing as a "PC Hell" exists, which is created where the socially just aims of Political Correctness are perverted in a malicious attempt to silence people who are already behaving in a perfectly acceptable way - for example, by invoking homophobia in a critique of a non-homophobic advertisement, or who criticise somebody who has made a perfectly inoffensive remark about Hitler as if they had made an offensive remark about Hitler.

Unfortunately - and I'll come back to this in a moment with the "PC-as-entity" question which I touched on at the start of this post - there is no actual gold standard on what in this model separates Political Correctness (good force for social justice) and the creation of PC Hell (bad force for suppression and censorship), and thus we rely on intent and, specifically, on one's perception of intent.

Quick diversion: I think there's a logical fallacy in your statement:

for the record, the only difference (as far as I can see) between her colleagues comments with my post in the Greenpeace Viral Ad thread are the intent and (therefore) the context with which we used the phrase, "PC Hell".

Intent does not change context, so the "therefore" relationship is off. Context changes and one of the elements within that change of context may be intent (or perception of intent).

Anyway, back to our examples. In the absence of a gold standard to distinguish Political Correctness (it is not purely legal compliance, for example, although there is a suggestion that it has to be of benefit to everybody - minority or no - before it is PC) and creation of PCH, we break down more like this:

When someone accuses my mother of creating a PCH (bad), they are wrong. What she is doing is political correctness (good).

When someone criticises my friend for not showing sufficient Political Correctness (good), they are wrong, and are in fact creating a PCH (bad).

When a portrayal of the relationship between Bush and Blair which I found amusing is accused of treating issues of sexuality without the required levels of Political Correctness (good), they are in fact in danger of creating a PCH (bad).


Now, one noteworthy thing about these three examples is that in each one it breaks exactly as you would expect it to you - that binary exonerates your mother, your friend and yourself. I'd like to keep this in the back of our minds when we consider how useful a distinction based purely on analysis of intent is. For my money, a far more complex and interesting approach comes in Devanfeld's response to your approach to a homophobic cab driver:

Because, you know, when a taxi driver says something homophobic to me, I have to decide whether to sit quiet and go through twenty-four hours of self-hatred (oh you are so cowardly and you have betrayed your brothers and sisters and non-gender-specific siblings), or to come out to him and risk being subjected to more abuse. To you, it seems, homophobia and bigotry are a teaching tool - either for you to learn about bigotry through discussion with bigots, or for you to teach anti-homophobic attitudes to homophobes. To some of us, though, they are a direct threat against our physical and mental integrity - in more or less direct or indirect ways, against our survival. And I'm sorry, but I don't really mind "silencing" the (fifty-year-old Guardian-reading) woman who hit me on a train for hugging my girlfriend in front of a child. I don't mind if she doesn't feel able to express the fact that I - whom she knows nothing about - should not be allowed to be around children, because my sexuality will harm them. I also don't mind if the person driving me from Point A to Point B doesn't feel able to express the opinion that I shouldn't be allowed to exist.

That is, the conditions that to you are a PCH (bad) are to other people, applying your standards, an instantiation of a successful protection put in place by PC (good) - they are benefited, even if the taxi driver feels that they have been censored. This may be about comparative benefits, or it may be about how a choice made due to a perception of Political Correctness is still a choice.

On t'other hand, none of the people we have seen so far here have been talking particularly in terms of political correctness as a force which lays down behaviours which are and are not acceptable - I don't know whether your mother came home of an evening complaining that her workplace was resisting becoming more politically correct (rather than, say, legally compliant or even socially equal), That, I think, is also worth noting. Of course, as Nina says, just because the term Political Correctness is used almost exclusively as a pejorative term, it neither means necessarily that it was conceived as a pejorative term or that its use as a pejorative term should go unchallenged (although whether it can be either claimed or reclaimed by those seeking social equality and justice as we perceive it is another question), but I would say that your suggestion that:

The phrase "PC" refers to a very practical and continuing social exercise

is at odds with the way the term is actually and generally used. I think you will struggle to find a single usage of the term "political correctness" in the mass media to support this - back to the question of how often you get a newspaper praising an act or law as being a great example of political correctness gone stone-bonking sane. As it happens, I was incorrect in my early assumption that "PC Hell", as you employ it, was a form of rather than an antithesis against "Political Correctness" (the latter being good and the former bad) - but I think this dichotomy has significant problems, as I hope to explain below.


Righty. That brings us neatly back to:

To believe and / or state, therefore (if indeed anybody actually does) that PC is merely some kind of fictional "monad", is (IHMO) patently untrue, misguided and distracting.

"Monad", here, means a single and unitary entity, and "entity" means "thing having real or distinct existence" - which is why, incidentally, the Temple should not need to be brought in. The table I am writing on is an entity, as is the computer I am typing this message into. To see what this may mean for us, I would pop back to your earlier statement:

Therefore (although as I've firmly stated before this phrase is a very emotive one), surely PC is understood and used by many parties to express pretty much the same set of ideas, the only difference being how each party frames it?

I'd say that the answer to that is pretty clearly "no", but to provide a bit more on that, we can look at:

I feel I should also type that, much the same as The Media, "The powers that be", and other phrases, the label and meaning of PC can be seen (rightly or wrongly) to be a kind of ephemeral force.

I'm not sure what "ephemeral" is intended to mean here, so I'll leave it aside, if you don't mind. Let's take a look at the Media or the "Powers that Be", and see how those terms may differ from "Political Correctness". Most obviously, they can both be seen pretty clearly to signify collections of individuals and organisations. If I ask you to tell me what makes up "the Media", for example, you could say newspapers, television, radio, Internet news agencies. At the next level of detail down, you could identify the BBC, ITV, CNN, Fox News. Next level down, Alan Yentob, Rupert Murdoch, and so on. In the same way, although one might disagree on what specifically constitutes the Powers that Be, one can with some confidence assume that such a list might include the Government and the Police, and further down Tony and Sir Ian Blair, for example. I don't think you can do the same with "Political Correctness". No organisation, to my knowledge, identifies itself as being a part of Political Correctness, nor is there any sense of who might be described as having their first loyalty to Political Correctness, as you understand it (cf feminism or civil liberties). The best we have is "the PC Brigades/PC Police", who, and this is quite important are not actual _organisations_ in the way the the Army brigades or the Metropolitan Police are.

So, I don't think that Political Correctness can be identified as a numinous but immanent group like the Media or the Powers that Be. What you are using the term to signify - which is as far as I can tell something along the lines of "a motive force in the individual and society as a whole which is supplemented by but not composed of legislation and the activities of civil rights groups and other organisations which seeks to apply in practise fair language and legislation in order to benefit both minorities and the disadvantaged within society and those within society who are neither minorities nor disadvantaged" - is more in the nature of a social construct like "social justice" or "equal opportunities". However, whereas there are various organisations and individuals who express a commitment to achieving both of those, I am again drawing a blank on any significant movement, grass-roots or institutional, which identifies itself as dedicated to the successful advancement of Political Correctness.

So, to give my personal response to your closing question - yes, context plays a very large part in how one uses the terms "PC" and "Political Correctness/Politically Correct". However, the contexts in which it is generally used do not, for my money, support the idea that there is a common distinction between Political Correctness (concerned with justice and fairness - good) and perversions of the idea or process of Political Correctness such as "PC Hell" (concerned with censorship and repression - bad). Rather, actions, statements and behaviours can be identified as within or without the understanding of individuals of what constitutes an acceptable action, statement or behaviour, and the concept of Political Correctness and Political Incorrectness can be used as part of the vocabulary by which the process of acceptance and rejection can be understood and explained.

So, to go back to your friend and Hitler: the reading of a passing Daily Mail reader be that your friend was being politically incorrect (i.e. defending his right to freedom of speech by refusing vocally to bow to the censorship of the PC brigades), and that the person who challenged him was being Politically Correct (i.e, applying an unreasonable standard of political sensitivity in order to stifle freedom of expression, either because of the sincere application of a lunatic ideology or for dishonest purposes in order to feel self-righteous or generate conflict). Your reading, as I understand it, was that your friend's joke was not politically incorrect, but rather within the standards demanded by political correctness (a practical and continuing social etc), and the reaction was applying an unreasonable standard of political sensitivity in order to stifle freedom of expression, either because of the sincere application of a lunatic ideology or for dishonest purposes in order to feel self-righteous or generate conflict - that is, that it was "creating a PC Hell", terminologically. This phrase, then, means much the same to you as "politically correct" does to our hypothetical Daily Mail reader.

I think this may have a bearing on your belief that context is key. I'd suggest that you are conflating context, reception and description - the same context there is being interpreted in two different ways. Both ways, as it happens, are actually describing the reaction to your friend's Hitler gag in the same way, but are applying different terminologies to that reading.

So, to the question:

to call the practical application of fair language and legislature "Politically Correct" is not necessarily a bad thing per se, is it? Indeed, as I keep typing, surely it's about context,.... isn't it?

I think it's become pretty clear (and I recommend Deva's excellent post above on how and why this may be becoming the case) that "it's about context" is an accountant's answer - correct but not in itself useful. There's a contradiction in the phrasing of these questions, however - the qualification per se excludes context, and I'd suggest that "necessarily" does something similar. Stripped down to:

to call the practical application of fair language and legislature "Politically Correct" is not a bad thing, is it?

The answer becomes something like it is an attempt to carve out a specific meaning for a phrase that is a location of conflict and indeterminacy, and IMHO it is also problematic, as it simply creates a parallel terminology (PC/PC Hell) that maps to (sensible/PC), and thus allows the continuation of terminological confusion that tends to benefit the opponents of what you might see as the practical application of fair language and legislature (depending, of course, on what you see as fair), rather than challenging the use of their usage of the terminology. Therefore, I personally would suggest that it may well be a bad idea, in particular while using the terminology "PC Hell" as you do to describe a state of affairs that overlaps considerably with the use elsewhere of "PC" and its cousin "PC gone mad".

How's that?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:11 / 03.08.05
Incidentally, to lighten the mood a little while hopefully remaining relevant, could I share a Marge Piercey moment? Recently I was talking to a friend about the recent Series of Unfortunate Events in London, and the effectiveness of the Police stop and search and the dangers of targetting people who looked a bit foreign, and that friend commented that the shoe bomber had been white. I responded, "Actually, I think he was half-caste - oh bollocks." I knew exactly why I had done it - I had been discussing somebody's relatives in India earlier and had been using technical terms such as "high-caste" quite a bit, and so my brain short-circuited. At which point I stopped, made it clear that this was not a term I would normally use, explained the circumstances and moved on. Bit socially mortifying, but only briefly.
 
 
Ganesh
11:55 / 03.08.05
As a brief aside, it might be worth considering perceived-intent-based analyses like this

Now, one noteworthy thing about these three examples is that in each one it breaks exactly as you would expect it to you - that binary exonerates your mother, your friend and yourself. I'd like to keep this in the back of our minds when we consider how useful a distinction based purely on analysis of intent is.

as a variant of the good ol' fundamental attribution error...
 
 
sdv (non-human)
16:50 / 04.08.05
Deva/Haus and co

That Political Correctness is an aspect of a politics of representation which is problematic in that any statement is in some sense arbitrary. (George Galloway being living proof of this yet again today...)

PC as I think of it these days historically derives from the restructuring that is slowly being applied through and also too the philosophies of difference , broadly speaking the work of Deleuze, Kristeva, Lyotard, Irigarary and so on. This is often merged with the politics of difference which draws together the politics of the minor social groups such as feminists, racial minorities, gay, animal, ecological into a common structure - all of which have demanded recognition of differences that were in earlier times: denied, repressed and oppressed. It is from these linked trajectories that the current variation of PC concept emerges from in both it's positive and reactionary understandings.

So to try and expand the discussion still further I'm going to use a nicely problematic (PC) singularity and there are a huge array of potential versions not forgetting 'PC' itself. But this one seems directly relevant because of its gradual adoption across the social and political spectrum - that of 'all women shortlists' (meaning the imposition on parliamentary constituencies of shortlists of Women MPs ) is an attractor around which there has been a coalescence of a wide range of social-political opinions all in some way responding to this specific feminist project. That on one trajectory is welcomed as an effective means of broadening the parliamentary base and continuing the multi-generational struggle to improve the position of women and on the other it's regarded as a terrible PC imposition of supposedly 'inferior MPs...'(which is actually laughable). But it is important to recognize that the negative responses do not deny that there should be more women MPs in parliament. The PC attractor of 'all women shortlists' actually represents the complex processes in which values and ideals are struggled over and exchanged - the critical mass may not have been reached where 50% of Parliament is occupied by women but the strange attractor does point towards the inevitability of this event happening.

Attacked for being PC ? yes, but also representative of necessary social changes.

To conclude then - all of the examples raised, even those that seem problematic can be considered within the rationale being considered here including those which others have regarded as, what Haus collapsed into the phrase 'lunatic ideologies'. Even the strangest singularities often have an understandable point when the issue is considered as struggles over the ruins of representation. (The jolly muslim woman on the BBC who demanded the right to be oppressed so that her islamic culture would survive has my vote as best PC example of the day...)

s
 
 
sdv (non-human)
17:04 / 04.08.05
As a post script: PC/PC Hell

What the (PC/PCHell) difference specifies is merely where on the social and political discourse you stand. Difficult examples first: Is the muslim woman being given the space in the spectacle, to demand her oppression - an example of PC gone mad ? How different is this from a jew demanding that Hitler be elected because to be racially oppressed defines them ? A simple example appears to be 'man-hole covers' except that it does signify the way we are uncomfortable in the historical remnents of an overly gendered society...

(Remember Sen's essay on the '100 Million missing women' in the south before you get hysterical...)

PC Hell - is a meaningless concept because it is to personal, to engaged with a specific human subjectivity, which wants to avoid the thought that a man-hole cover might be related to the reality of Sen's essay...

s
 
 
Quantum
18:43 / 15.08.05
Regarding the Fundamental Attribution Error (see Ganesh's link above) I think this is a key aspect of the usage of PC. Just as if you trip you are clumsy and if I trip it's a lumpy floor, you are being PC/creating PCH where in the same situation I am supporting affirmative action.
Is there any distinction between them except positive and negative affect?

(sidebar- I finally found a 'pro-PC' result via google, four pages down, where someone defends PC, specifically referring to 'disabled-ist'{sic} language here)
 
 
Quantum
18:45 / 25.10.05
Yesterday the Daily Express had the front page banner headline

HOGWASH! now the PC brigade ban piggy banks in case they upset Muslims

The PC brigade are a force to be reckoned with, eh.
 
 
the Fool
05:20 / 27.10.05
How about this...

Over in the games forum there is a thread on 'online hate speach'. In that thread is a link to the 'idiot toys' blog, where Tom weighs in against the use of 'gay'. It goes badly, he is often misrepresented. I post, attempting to be reasonable, using an anectode. I leave a link to my old blog, in which I mention buying 'a terribly gay Ben Sherman top'. I get the smackdown - Worst. Moral. Crusade. Ever.

Embarrashing, yes. Hypocritical? Probably. Am I, as a gay man, allowed to use homophobic speech? Is it still homophobic speech when used by the usual intended victim?

Words like 'Poof, Fag, homo' get used by myself and friends quite a bit, but if a non-gay person uses them I'll take offence. Is that unfair? Do I need to modify my behaviour? Do I have no right to be offended by homophobic speech if I can be found guilty of 'causal homophobia' in my own writing or speech, even if in a small way?

I'm actually angry at myself for using 'gay' in a negative way. Given how I feel (as I posted in the 'idiot toys' thread) I feel incredibly stupid. But is there a difference in how I used the term versus the way the afore mentioned thread used it? (I'm not trying to justify myself, just opening it up for discussion).

Is me taking offense to the word 'gay' as a negative adjective just an example of PC hell gone mad in any event? Do I need to 'chill out'? Has, as claimed in the thread, the meaning of the word moved?

Just uncertain of my own thinking as of now, apart from being mortified at my own foolishness (there is a reason for the name y'know).
 
 
Ganesh
09:21 / 27.10.05
This is a common bone of contention, often discussed. Basically yes, I would say context is everything where the likes of 'poof', 'dyke', 'nigger', etc. are concerned, and it's generally less 'hateful' when a term is used by a member of the subgroup which has reclaimed that term - particularly when it's used of oneself, in a deprecating way. Thus, Graham Norton can call himself a "shiny poof" with relative impunity - but if Gary Bushell did it, the perceived inferences would be different.

In the case of describing things as 'gay', I suspect gay men are actually using the word in a slightly different way than kids in a playground, say, would use it...
 
 
Quantum
13:43 / 27.10.05
In the excellent comic 'Dykes to watch out for' there's an exchange between Carlos and his kid Rafi playing with a friend. One kid says to the other 'your toy is gay!' so he turns to the Carlos and asks 'Is it gay?'
If by 'Gay' you mean stylish, sophisticated and cool- then yes, it's gay.' he replies. He goes on to explain that a wifebeater shirt on him is a statement, an ironic commentary on male stereotypes, wheras on the skinny counsellor it was just the first thing he could find in the morning.
If only I could find which one it is- anyone?

From the DTWOF Blog;
"I used an OHP slide of the strip where Carlos explains to Rafi about the difference between his wifebeater shirt and Rafi's camp counselor's shirt in a conference paper I gave at the International Gender and Language Assoc conference a couple of years ago"
so it's not just me. See the DTWOF website if you don't already know about it.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
11:14 / 28.10.05
It seems to me that context isn't everything, rather it's that language is always arbitrary and under everyday use changes in quite extraoridinary but still determined ways. But with the obvious caveat that you can never avoid the history of a term - so that 'nigger' is a derogatary racist term that cannot lose the historical context.

The recent appropriation of the word 'gay' to mean 'lame and wet' within some groups in british society - does I think contain homophobic overlays. Though whether gays might think differently understanding the appropriation of the term 'ironically' is the key to Quantum's question. Personally I think that irony as resistance is overrated, because the distance along the line between; 'gay' as homosexual, and 'gay' as lame and wet - continues onto the far reactionary edge people being murdered because they are 'gay'. To accept the transition of a term from one of resistance 'gay' to one of ironic denigration 'gay' is to accept the denigration.

pity really...
 
 
Tits win
22:47 / 02.01.06
If political correctness/accusations of being PC-MADDDD!!!! are being used to slyly promote right-wing values, then, instead of fighting/debating its origins and current uses, why not empower it for your own (maybe left-wing) agenda?

What I mean is, instead of defending yourself against accusations of politically-correct-madness, why not step up and say "yes, I'm politically correct, because that's how the world should be".

I'm probably missing something here, so please enlighten me. It's just that I don't see how the debate itself does anything but continue to support this idea that the right are using the term for their own reasons. Which is why I'm for a different, more subjective approach, if any.

In other words: Reappropriate PC as a good, wholesome term, which is what it originally was meant to connote anyway eh? You can't lose that way.
 
 
Ganesh
23:19 / 02.01.06
Well, that rather means one has to attempt to define the beast - which is problematic, and part of the focus of this thread.
 
 
Tits win
00:02 / 03.01.06
Sorry. I'll come back when I've read it.
 
 
Ganesh
00:30 / 03.01.06
Good plan.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:46 / 03.01.06
Has anyone seen this? It's made me slightly nauseous.
 
 
sleazenation
11:54 / 03.01.06
Yes, according to Civitas, 'Political Correctness' apparently causes terrorism...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:51 / 03.01.06
The Metro's coverage of this today was disgusting - the claims reproduced with no counter-point at all, and one of those secondary text boxes filled with yet more bilge about "PC".
 
 
ibis the being
13:44 / 03.01.06
Ah, I'm glad you posted this Nina, I caught the tail end of a BBC World report of the radio and wondered what the story was....
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:48 / 03.01.06
Only read the first couple of pages of comments on that BBC news thing, but is EVERYONE responding to that a dick?

(With the exception of this line: "The moment you ask for a society you relinquish the right to absolute freedom. How offensive do you think you should be allowed to be?" Which I kind of liked).
 
 
Quantum
13:34 / 04.01.06
"...right wing think-tank Civitas..."

...says PC's gone maad, quelle surprise.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
22:18 / 04.01.06
Salient comment:

what is wrong with everybody?
why whenever someone talks about free speach, islam is dragged in? we muslims ask you to only respect our religion as we do respect yours. i think using that quote that links free speach to "muslim guettos" is a grave isult by the BBC.

hamed, london
 
 
The Falcon
01:31 / 05.01.06
Aye, repellent. I saw this in the Dundee Courier; it seems roughly that 'being PC' equates with 'not targeting ethnic minority groups with responsibility for social ills' therein. Barbelith woz right.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:38 / 05.01.06
Incidentally, I realise that we have wandered slightly off the topic, but I had to share the Sun's above-the-fold story today - that a man was killed by his own 4x4, driven by a Gipsy on early release. That's right, folks, a gipsy on early release. It mentions that the killer was a gipsy twice, just in case we don't understand the significance.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
07:23 / 05.01.06
Sigh. From the BBC Have Your Say site:

Both World Wars owed their roots to political correctness.

In today's Metro (free Manchester paper) there was a letters page about Iqbal Sacranie's anti-gay statements. While those statements digust me, equally bad were the founts of all wisdom writing in to inform us that Islam "is not compatible with the UK". Did these people defend gays before doing so gave them a chance to get at Muslims? Probably not.
 
  

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