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Political Correctness - collation and discussion

 
  

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Quantum
09:10 / 05.01.06
a man was killed by his own 4x4

I am *definitely* picking up a discarded copy of the Sun today, that's a classic parody of itself.

Who said that PC caused both world wars? Some random contributor having their say? "Dear BBC, why oh why do we still allow these foreign criminals free access to our beloved motherland? Islam is nothing but a thin veil disguising terror, like a burqa on a black bear, hanging's to good for them...(etc)...yours disgustedly, Hatty from Hemel Hempstead"
 
 
All Acting Regiment
04:18 / 06.01.06
It was just someone from Have Your Say. There were an awful lot of "Hitler was a Socialist. See?" comments as well.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
04:21 / 06.01.06
Actually, that quote bother me the more I look at it. I mean what the fuck's it saying? At first guess the guy's probably trying to imply that "Hitler was PC because he opposed freedom of speech", but looking more closely, is someone seriously suggesting that going to war with the Nazis was "PC gone mad"?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:25 / 07.01.06
So, The BBC has apologised for Jimmy Carr also buying in to the idea that it isn't racist if it's about gypsies. Jimmy Carr has not.

I guess the first question would be what's an appropriate response to this? If Carr does not apologise, should be be rehired by the BBC, or indeed more generally? Is there a worthwhile comparison to the Ron Atkinson episode?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
02:58 / 07.01.06
The difference between "sharp satirical comedian" and "snarky prat" is the ability to know who is a victimiser and who is a victim, and make jokes about the former but go easy on the latter. Hopefully the BBC know this.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:19 / 16.01.06
Being polite and open-minded is good, but too much Polictical Correctness is Newspeach...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:21 / 16.01.06
Did you read the thread before deciding that, Galvatron? I have the tiniest feeling that you didn't. Please read the thread, and then consider, perhaps as a starting point, where exaclty the power lies in being able to decide when, in your opinion, the line has been crossed between open-mindedness and newspeak, which seem to me to be exclusionary rather than contiguous concepts.
 
 
sleazenation
21:35 / 16.01.06
And after that you might want to learn that it is actually 'newspeak'...
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:37 / 16.01.06
I knew there was something wrong with the term. oh well.

Anyway, since this seem to be a non-bs thread, I withdraw my comment. But, what i meant is: when you try to repress people from using certain terms or language in the hope that they disapear from the lexus, and thus from the mind, that's newspeak.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:11 / 17.01.06
Have you read the thread, then?
 
 
Dead Megatron
07:59 / 17.01.06
I confess I did not read it with the necessary attention. It was "impulse posting" and I apologize for it. But I do question the capacity of PCness to prevent prejudiced thinking
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:28 / 17.01.06
Go on, then. Feel free to go ahead and start questioning it, taking on board what has already been said in this thread.

That is, unless you're apologising for and withdrawing your contribution to the debate whilst simultaneously repeating it - what is known in some circles as the 'Kilroy Maneuver'.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:41 / 17.01.06
when you try to repress people from using certain terms or language in the hope that they disapear from the lexus

That would obviously be a Good Thing, because I'd like that Lexus all for myself. What a ride....
 
 
Jack Fear
09:42 / 17.01.06
I do question the capacity of PCness to prevent prejudiced thinking

Well, that's good. Questioning is a healthy thing.

In fact, I would submit that the goal of creating "an atmosphere of political correctness" is not necessarily to prevent prejudiced thinking so much as to cause the prejudiced thinker to question such thinking, and the status and privileges and unanalyzed assumptions that led to those habits of thought in the first place.

You know, we had political correctness when I was kid, too, but back then we just called it "empathy."
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:16 / 17.01.06
We still do, though, don't we - as has been said often, it's incredibly rare for anybody to ever self-identify as "PC", unless they also speak of it as a way of behaving which they have reluctantly taken on - to the extent that it's almost misleading to talk about the goal of creating an atmosphere of PC, since nobody who's ever committed to such a goal ever sets out to create what they would describe as any such thing...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:27 / 17.01.06
Well, quite - Galvatron's first post draws a clear distinction, where open-mindedness and consideration (good) can be antithesised against the malign, cancerous mutation of the qualities, which is PC (bad). One could reasonably assume that these bars are set pretty clearly according to what he, Dead Megatron, does and does not want to do. He does not want, I imagine, to burn crosses on people's gardens, so the decision not to do that is open-minded and tolerant. He may want to be able to make jokes about gay men that trade on stereotypes of them as limp-wristed, effeminate and weak, and might in that case feel that people disapproving of this would therefore be "PC". His characterisation elsewhere of Mordant Carnival as "PC" might in fact be a promising discussion point, as it suggests that "PC" may, in fact, be being used as a universalising mechanism: “Mordant Carnival is questioning my right to say what I want to say, and this is not only in subjective terms disagreeable to me, but can also be idenitifed as objectively wrong by bringing in the abstract concept of political correctness, by partaking of which she is condemned.”

All interesting stuff, natch. His subsequent statement disavows his first, but claims instead that repressing certain terms from the "lexus" (presumably a kind of ethereal lexicon from which language cultures draw) is newspeak. We can agree that this is a bad thing, because it is a bad thing in 1984, when it is used by an oppressive dictatorship. We can apply the same rule, by the way, to casual sex (Brave New World) – always wrong.

This aim - repressing terms - is not overtly associated with the "Political Correctness" he mentioned in his previous post, but presumably this must be identified as part of the "PC project", or else why would he mention it?

So, how do those interrelate? Let's take the ever-popular N-word, used formerly as a colloquial and now as a derogatory term for what in the UK we tend to call black people. A hypothetical Michael Scott might feel oppressed by PC and unable to use it in his office environment, but he is still clearly at liberty to use it in the privacy of his own head, and for that matter to watch a chris Rock HBO special and find it highly amusing.

In other situations, people might feel able to use the term as an endearment between friends, safe in the knowledge that they will not hurt or offend the person they are addressing. On the other hand, the same person might well not get the same feeling of comradeship if somebody they had never met before, and/or someone who would have no experience of the term used in a derogatory fashion against them, called them the same thing.

Now, this is by no means a hard and fast rule. There's an argument that in a public place you have no means of knowing who is caught in the radius of your exchange with your friend – so, the 70-year old African-American whose parents were brutalised by people shouting that very word might not be happy to hear it in the sanctuary of the diner he has attended for lunch every day for a decade. The British playwright and actor Kwame Kwei-Ama has expressed the opinion that the term can never be reclaimed, and that those who use are ultimately reinforcing their own victimisation and legitimising its wider use. Nonetheless, used it is.

Which actually helps, perhaps, to explain the relationship between Dead Megatron's first statement and his second, and also a mistake he is IMHO making. What he sees as an attempt to remove a word, and its connotations, from use might in fact be an attempt to make those who are not adversely affected by it question its use, or be made aware that its use is open to question. Of course, if you do not consider those on the receiving end to have a voice – if the subaltern cannot speak, or at least cannot say anything worth hearing – then this can indeed look like total suppression.

Which brings us to Dead Megatron's final contention, or more precisely his final question, in which he expresses doubt at the effectiveness of “PC” - which he has defined, roughly, as the attempt to remove certain terms from any given language, and we have refined as the removal of the ability of anybody, but in particular somebody who is not generally likely to have experienced a specific term in a derogatory context, to use certain terms without risking that their use of the term may be challenged, in preventing “prejudiced thinking”.

There are a couple of issues with that. The main one might be that it assumes that the only goal of the activity identified by him as “political correctness” - broadly, the creation of an environment in which people are unable to rely on being able to use terms considered to be offensive, derogatory and/or discriminatory in certain contexts without their entitlement to use those terms being questioned – is to prevent prejudiced thinking. As Jack Fear says above, the fact that terms may be used, but that the person using the term risks their use being questioned, is presumably going to make people look at their use of terminology more carefully in light of the offence it might cause.

Of course, many might argue that those who question their usage are simply being “PC” in the first sense Dead Megatron gives for it – a cancerous and malign mutation of consideration and open-mindedness – that is, something that can only ever exist in a condition of having-already-gone-mad (maddengeseinheit?). Others might chafe against the bit to the extent that they claim that their use of offensive language and their expression of offensive beliefs is intended to mock and offend “the PC Brigade”, with the implication that no right-thinking person could do other than support them in this brave stand. On the other hand, those who do this would, I suspect, use the same terminologies and express the same views if they did not feel oppressed by political correctness.

There's a further question about how power functions in particular environments, but later for that...
 
 
Jack Fear
11:34 / 17.01.06
Hence the scare quotes, and the tiny whiff of irony which permeates the post.

For "creating an atmosphere of political correctness," substitute "trying to make people feel bad about the obnoxious prejudices which et cetera and so forth." Or "challenging unexamined assumptions about privilege," if you like. Or simply "engagement"—that is, taking an active stance regarding our perceptions of ourselves and the structures in which we live, instead of passively accepting them.

Whatever you call it, it is a distinct mode of living and thinking, and it is antithetical to entrenched structures of power—which, once erected, tend naturally to develop a resistance to reexamination.

And whatever you call it, it's not about "stifling" or "silencing" or "enforcing an orthodoxy" or "shutting people up": quite the opposite. It's about encouraging people—sometimes forcefully—to think and question.

The charge that's usually levelled by the Right against "political correctness" is that speech-and-behavior codes tend to become, themselves, entrenched power structures which close themselves off from examination and debate. Which happens, of course. History has shown us that revolutionaries have a terrible track record of turning into oppressors themselves.

But speech-and-behavior codes in themselves—i.e., when enacted in a vacuum—are pointless. They're only attractive because they're cheaper and less time-consuming than actually, y'know, teaching people how to think. It's a dumb, Band-Aid solution, and antithetical to the mode of thinking which it ostensibly promotes.

To dismiss the very concept of engaged empathy simply because the implementation has sometimes been cack-handed and censorious seems, to me, to be stupid and short-sighted in the extreme.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
17:29 / 17.01.06
But, what i meant is: when you try to repress people from using certain terms or language in the hope that they disapear from the lexus, and thus from the mind, that's newspeak.

But, by saying that, aren't you yourself trying to restrict people's right to criticise other's use of language?

Are you arguing that people should be free to say what they want, or are you arguing that they should be protected from the consequences of doing so? Because the two strike me as very different positions.
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:33 / 17.01.06
But, by saying that, aren't you yourself trying to restrict people's right to criticise other's use of language?

Are you arguing that people should be free to say what they want, or are you arguing that they should be protected from the consequences of doing so? Because the two strike me as very different positions.


You know, you're right, this is a repressive statement I've made, sort of. What I think is: they should be able to hold any opinion they want, no matter how un-PC they may be, but not protect from the consequences of talking about them. People should be responsible for what they say, and both the PC advogate as the un-PC should express them selves in any terms they consider appropriate. And live with the consequences, too.

It's hard to create a formula to diminish prejudice, specially because they are learned in a very early age. Is PC working? I think not, but I'm just a layman, I'm no social scientist, so me being dead wrong is not at all impossible. Less hipocrisy this way, I reckon.

Plus, as a personnal experience, PC adovcates (and militants in general) seem to suffer from a utter lack of sense of humor, and that really pushes my buttons. If I can take a step back and examine the situation more coldly, I have to admit they are at least honestly trying to make a better world for all.

And also, I meant to write "lexicon", but since English is not my first language, sometimes I screw up the translation (despite the fact I work as a translator sometimes). That's what I get for being born in a mongrel, third-world, uncivilized savage people

"Galvatron"

PS. Once upon a time I translated a book about neo-nazi movements (NICHOLAS GOODRICK-CLARKE's BLAC SUN) and ther's a part that some American neo-nazi made a comment about Prez. Clinton sexual behavior (in the good old pre-bush days), saying it would lead to, and I quote, "A Brazil-like squandor" adn I thought it was pretty cool: if a guy like that does not like us, we must be doing something right, right?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:49 / 17.01.06
Dead Megatron:

Read.

The.

Thread.


Kthxbye.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:11 / 18.01.06
DM, old thing, I hate to say it but I can't help noticing that a lot of the points you raise in your post (PC humourlessness, ect.) have been raised and dealt with on the first page.

I get that this is something you feel very strongly about and that you're keen to get involved in the discussion, and that's great. But you'll get a better hearing if you can show that you've thought about some of the arguments offered earlier, and put together a rebuttal. If you're just repeating things that have already been brought up and argued down as if they're entirely fresh, you're not really doing your position justice.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:30 / 18.01.06
Having just re-read the thread, it strikes me that tenix (now not jack) never replied to this... I know ze's still around these parts - I wonder if I could ask what ze thinks about all this now?
 
 
Dead Megatron
19:38 / 18.01.06
I swear to many Gods that I'm trying to read this thread, but man!, head-shoppers write way too much Well, let's try one more time...

I think it's been amply demonstrated in the last several posts that "political correctness" is a term whose provenance, history, and secondary meaning are multiple, blurry and nigh-on irrecoverable

Perhaps the problem is exactly that: we cannot agree with what "PC" actually means. My experience tells me arguments about badly-defined semantics never, never end ("you say potato, I say po-tah-to", kind of thing). What if the term "PC" was dropped all together for being, well, "un-PC" itself (metalinguistics, anyone?). Perhaps replaced by "Socially Sympathetic" or the like.

And I have a question (forgive me if it was already answered and I missed. If that's the case, please refer me to the apropriate post). In a previous post, someone told a story about a kid refering to another as "Special Needs" (or something like that) to offend him/her. What if PC terminology, instead of curbing prejudice, inevitably ends up tainted by the very prejudice it was meant to curb? At one time, the word "negro" was considered all-right, then it was "afro-american", then "black", then "african american". It keeps changing, trying to catch up, but it does not seem to work, does it? Or am I being stupid again?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:32 / 18.01.06
Yes, you are. Read the thread, in which both of these questions are addressed and discussed.
 
 
Spaniel
21:33 / 18.01.06
It's not so much that you're being stupid, more that you still don't seem to have read the thread.

If you're having problems understanding anything that's been said there's no shame in asking people to explain further.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:39 / 18.01.06
Is there shame in asking to point to me where in the thread is the answer to my questions? It's all I'm asking.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:55 / 18.01.06
This isn't Sudoku, Dead Megatron. The entire thread is about your questions. The time you are spending posting to the thread would be better spent reading it and trying to understand the issues raised and discussed. Seriously. It's quite complicated.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:02 / 18.01.06
Well there is a tiny shame-flavoured morsel therein, because you're essentially asking people to go and read the thread for you, rather than reading it yourself. It's a tad cheeky.

I know that the Headshop can be a bit daunting, but you'll get much more out of it if you're prepared to investigate the discussion that's gone on before rather than simply repeating questions that have already been asked and answered a couple of pages back.

In conclusion, may I beseech you in the name of all that is holy to please please READ THE THREAD BEFORE YOU POST AGAIN!?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:02 / 18.01.06
Once you have read the thread, you may want to look again at your statement:

What if PC terminology, instead of curbing prejudice, inevitably ends up tainted by the very prejudice it was meant to curb? At one time, the word "negro" was considered all-right, then it was "afro-american", then "black", then "african american". It keeps changing, trying to catch up, but it does not seem to work, does it? Or am I being stupid again?

Now, first up, you are saying that what is happening here is that, as far as I can tell, what you are calling "PC" terminology is poisoning each of these wells in turn - that people are made uncomfortable calling black people negros, and then are made to feel uncomfortable calling them "afro-American", then made uncomfortable calling them "black", and then uncomfortable... and so on. This seems to rest on a number of assumptions. One is that there is a simple progression through terminologies. This is, I would say pretty clearly, not the case. The second is the question of what is actually happening here. Do you mean that every term is turned into a form of abuse? First up, I would say that that is manifestly not true, or at least not trruew in the same way. It is actually very much harder to make "African-American", for example, sound as offensive as "negro". So, unpack. Explain how you understand the history of that particular terminology to have developed, and what has affected it.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:58 / 18.01.06
Now, first up, you are saying that what is happening here is that, as far as I can tell, what you are calling "PC" terminology is poisoning each of these wells in turn - that people are made uncomfortable calling black people negros, and then are made to feel uncomfortable calling them "afro-American", then made uncomfortable calling them "black", and then uncomfortable

No, the PC terminology is all right on its own account. It's just that the prejudiced people who were supposed to question their own attitude with it, not only do not do so, but end up using such terminology as a mockery, thus spoiling it for people who actually want to get over their prejudices, ans thus forcing the PC advocates to create new terminology just to get back to the point they were before. Good people's work being ruined by bad people's disregard for it. Don't you find that frustating?

Or, to quote Joss Whedon's Angel TV series:

Hero: "People who don't care about anything will never understand people who do."

Vilain: "Yeah, but we don't care"

Don't mind answering now. I have been reading the thread, but it is awfully verborragic, and I get anxious to post. But, I'll be nice and take MC's advice. It's gonna take a few days, though...

And, on a side note, I'm starting to feel like the new kid in school who's trying to get along but keeps geting shun from every conversation for not knowing the right lingo or dressing the right way, y'know. People who want to convey a message of compassion and acceptance should be more friendly to newcomers. I know I started with the wrong foot, but I'm really striving to fix it.

See you soon, people.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:42 / 19.01.06
Dude, if you want to fix it read the thread. It's that simple. I'm sorry that you are feeling like your contributions are not being valued, but that is primarily a consequence of you not valuing other people's contributions enought to read them, or valuing the discussion and those who will wish to contribute to it in the future enough to make the minimum effort required to possess the tools to add to it. It's about consideration, see?
 
 
Spaniel
06:51 / 19.01.06
DM, I appreciate that the Barb can be tough for newbies, and the Headshop tougher still, but once you've been here for a while you'll realise that people have been giving you a lot of slack. The fact is, you are being treated with kid gloves.
If I turned up in this thread and started to post not once but repeatedly when I clearly hadn't been respectful enough to read the contributions of others, contributions that pertained to the questions I wanted to ask, I would be bollocked, and quite rightly.
It really is a question of practicality. If we want threads in the Headshop (and elsewhere on the board, for that matter) to move forward, it is the responsibility of the contributors to follow the discussion. Otherwise we find ourselves in a situation where threads lose their momentum, and we get bogged down in addressing questions that have been answered (or at least addressed) pages ago.
I assume you see how that could be a bad thing?

We're just trying to maintain the quality of this thread.

No one's being mean. Yet.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
07:03 / 19.01.06
DM, one thing I might suggest is that you try and repeat the phrase "PC terminology" without using the words PC or Politcal Correctness. That is, try and work out exactly what it is you mean when you say "PC". You'll find that there's a lot of unexamined opinion encased in those two letters.
 
 
Quantum
19:02 / 19.01.06
If you don't read the thread you end up with half a page of, well, this.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:37 / 06.03.06
Gary Younge in today's Guardian on Political Correctness.
 
  

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