BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Political Correctness - collation and discussion

 
  

Page: 1(2)3456

 
 
m
19:20 / 28.07.05
Haus: "...it is always in the interest and within the power of the person being corrected to dismiss the correction as ignobly motivated. This seems to me a problem."

You assume that the correctee is unable to infer intention with any sort of success and will always reject criticism in any form. Sure, accusations of PC behavior can be used as a shield by dismissing the corrector and shutting down debate, but that doesn't mean that it can never be used as an apt description. I don't view the PC descriptor as being an exclusive "handy" tool of the right, because it presupposes that there just could never be an instance of prudish and sanctimonious behavior from someone on the left, ever. Surely someone on Barbelith has encountered someone that uses their left-wing politics primarily to nit-pick and shame others.
 
 
Cat Chant
19:25 / 28.07.05
But why isn't that called "prudish and sanctimonious behaviour" and/or "nitpicking and shaming"? Why is the term "political correctness" used, if not to give the impression that this kind of behaviour on the Left is part of some kind of nebulous conspiracy-to-censor?
 
 
m
19:45 / 28.07.05
PC is a more precise descriptor than "prudish and sanctimonious" in that it also includes the political dimensioon to it. "Prudish and sanctimonious" by themselves have a stronger religious or conservative connotation to me. I don't think PC implies that the person belongs to a nebulous conspiracy to censor at all, but only that the person is being a specific kind of jerk.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:55 / 28.07.05
Sorry, m... melty brain. I think I got you and m mixed up in my brain. Hopefully it doesn't hurt the sense of what I'm saying too much.
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:59 / 28.07.05
"Political Correctness", as has been pointed out, it has been "framed" so that it can be used by conservatives to beat the left. Once that happens, it becomes more convenient to use the label since you can use one word to evoke a whole set of criticisms that would otherwise take you a book to elucidate. Of course, it also means you can use the term without having to think through what you mean and still evoke those same associations.

To be fair, this happens all the time. You might argue that it has happened in the UK with respect to religion and the wariness people have of religious fervour. In fact, you might even say that the "PC" left have also achieved it. Despite your Marge Piercy paraphrase, Deva, I think it is very much the case that an accusation of racism has become a rather serious slur. So to call someone a "racist" is not merely to say they are inconsiderate, unduly swayed by appearance or so on, but that they are seriously morally flawed. This is how people often respond to it, in my experience (though one has to take into account context..racism still exists unchallegened in many places) and is a victory, of course.
 
 
m
20:13 / 28.07.05
So, do the talk show hosts just get to keep the words that they co-opt and redefine? Do those words then become just tools against the left each and every time that they are used?
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:23 / 28.07.05
Sorry m, are you referring specifically to "political correctness"? If so, then I'd say the answer is a big fat yes. The image of the left as interfering with gold old common sense everyman, who is struggling to do his best and be a good sort in the face of whining, prissy political correctness is a hefty weapon. As has been pointed out, conservatives get to picture and present themselves as rebellious for daring to challenge the "PC" consensus.

Its an important part of modern politics, though probably mostly significant in the US and I don't think you can really understand US politics without this dynamic in mind. Look at Bush, for instance, and the totally absurd common man, plainspeaking, cowboy image.
 
 
rising and revolving
20:26 / 28.07.05
You know, it's funny but I think that Deva and pw (at the very least) actually agree.

Because when people like pw, who are not (as near as I know) right-wing pundits, use the term PC, I'm sure the idea they're poorly trying to express is roughly analogous to the observation Deva made

"I'd also like to add that, from teaching first-year undergraduate courses on post-colonialism and ethnic studies as well as from the Whiteness threads here on the lith (see here and here), I feel like there's a reluctance to talk about any race-related issues because of a fear of not having the right vocabulary. And, to me, that's immensely problematic."

Yes. The post-PC-era has resulted in the words "racism", "sexism" and "homophobia" causing knees to jerk on all sides of the argument. Which makes it very difficult to have an actual discussion.

Personally, that's a bit of a concern and a viable one to raise. I also don't think it's unfair to use the label "post PC" as it's informative - everyone knows what I mean, even if PC itself remains undefined.
 
 
m
20:51 / 28.07.05
Lurid: I'm refering to all the words and phrases that the right has co-opted. Words such as 'liberal' and 'radical' as well as 'PC', which I just don't think was created by the right as a tool against the left. I seem to remember it being used by the left in the early nineties to describe liberal politics in a positive manner. It was short hand for 'the right kind of liberal politics' and was used to describe someone that was 'on our side' and 'fighting the good fight.' That usage always struck me as being a little creepy, and maybe that's why the left quit using it. The right just picked it up and tweeked it to mean censorious radical lefty politics that are too kuh-razee to even deal with.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:46 / 28.07.05
m: Hmmm. "Liberal" and "Radical". To start with, can you give me an idea of where you are? Because this makes a huge difference to the reception of these words and the political "neutral". For instance in the US (I'm guessing thats where you are from), the term "socialist" is practically taboo, whereas here in Spain you could almost use it to describe mainstream opinion.

In the UK, the word "liberal" doesn't quite work in the same way as in the US and can mean, depending on context, a free-market advocate, or a member of the liberal democrats (with a whole complex history and current position). The word "radical" has been partially reclaimed by the right, or at least I seem to remember Thatcher using it (didn't she?).

To answer your question, I think that "liberal" and "radical" operate differently than "political correctness", in that their use against the left (in the US) represents a decline of the left (in the US) as much as anything else. A sizeable number of people will accept the labels "liberal" and "radical" and defend themselves on those grounds.

Now, after a certain point, negative usage can become so entrenched that one makes a tactical decision to disassociate from certain terms - "socialism" is arguably at that stage. And at that stage, the use of those terms is a tool against whoever they work against. But "political correctness" is not a discredited term in this sense, since it was always a pejorative applied from the outside.

That said, just to complicate matters, I do know the odd person who self-applies "political correctness" in a positive sense. Now, Haus may be right that these people are victims of a bait and switch, but this discussion becomes much more complicated if that becomes widespread.
 
 
m
23:08 / 28.07.05
Yeah, sorry, I was using "liberal" in the context of US politics. I had written a nice post where I mentioned that, but then I screwed around and lost evrything I'd put down before posting. Forgot to stick it in the rewrite.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:14 / 29.07.05
PC is a more precise descriptor than "prudish and sanctimonious" in that it also includes the political dimensioon to it.

Except it isn't precise at all, is it? For example, in the UK the term "politically correct" has been assigned to any number of things that are nothing to do with prudery or sanctimony. The assignation of lottery funds to gay counseling groups or the ballet? Political correctness? Children not being allowed to play on the swings? Political correctness. Camping grounds for travellers? Political correctness.

So, to think of political correctness as generally construed only in terms of speech acts strikes me as unwise.

YOu're also banging up against the question of whose politics are involved - tenix gave a list of subjects discussion of which is precluded by political correctness, some of which have nothing at all to do with the left - such as masturbation and death. Presumably you would identify those as "prudish" rather than "PC", right?

I think the problem I come back to is this issue of intention, though. To an extent all interpretation involves intention, but by your rule any statement can be discarded on the grounds that the listener feels that the speaker is making it in bad faith, regardless of the content of the statement - by identifying it as first left-wing and then as political correctness. As such, the statement "that is political correctness" simply means "I do not believe that you are performing this speech act for the right reasons, and therefore I choose not to process it". In which case, the term is wholly subjective and thus, in a sense although not in the absolute sense that sdv is wise to shun, meaningless.
 
 
m
17:14 / 29.07.05
Haus: I can't help it if others throw the term around in stupid ways. Also, I think that if you abandon terms that are regularly misused by propagandists, your vocabulary is going to get very small very quickly.

Also, I didn't say that it was a 100% precise descriptor, just a more precise descriptor. Not unlike many other descriptors (good, bad, jerk, prudish, shitty, sanctimonious) its application is largely subjective. I've already said that it can be misapplied, overapplied, or used to avoid discussion, but at the same time it can also be used as an apt description of a certain type of asshole.
 
 
m
20:32 / 29.07.05
Also, just like 'prudish' or 'sanctimonious', PC could be used to describe both speech acts and non-speech acts. I think my initial definition used 'behavior' to encompass both.
 
 
JOY NO WRY
21:52 / 29.07.05
I wish I hadn't come into this discussion so late, but:

It seems to me that if political correctness is being forcibly presented as a cohesive entity it is still only possibly to attack that entity as it has been if it can be presented as something that goes against common sense.

The idea of political correctness itself doesn't appear that counter-intuitive to me. Maybe changing what people say won't change how they really feel about black people/women/gay people/disabled people/whoever, but it does mean that you don't get whole groups of people who have to fill in forms and whatnot which appear abusive to them. It really does seem to be just a question of politeness. Nobody is going to attack the PC 'entity' for suggesting that if people find it derogatory to be called nigger or poof then those words shouldn't be used institutionally (Not that I'm aware they ever were).

Perhaps it is only when people try to predict what might be considered derogatory that the issue begins to feel ridiculous. I don't recall any stigma surrounding the term 'disabled' (although it might be there, this is just an example), so I don't see any reason for replacing it with the unwieldy 'differently abled'. I think that the people who come up with these terms are just as guilty as anyone else of seeing political correctness as an entity in that they've tryed to treat it as a science that can be applied to all terms when in fact it is a much simpler concept.
 
 
ibis the being
23:21 / 29.07.05
It seems to me that if political correctness is being forcibly presented as a cohesive entity it is still only possibly to attack that entity as it has been if it can be presented as something that goes against common sense.

Everyone please forgive me if I'm only repeating what's already been said, but it just keeps getting lost in the mix here. If I am being repetitious it's in the interest of bare-bones clarity.

"Political Correctness" is not an entity, except in the minds of those who coined the term. Period. There is no nice or acceptable or commonsense instance of PC because it is by definition a pejorative term.

Why are people still citing examples of when PC is useful? It's a total oxymoron. When formerly-known-as-handicapped people started forming support groups calling themselves "Physically challenged," THEY never said "Listen up, this is the PC term for us now" -- it was the right-wing who protested, "Ooooh, it's not 'PC' to call them handicapped anymore! Boo!"

Though I really hate to bring it up (because I don't want to derail into discussing feminism), the most like term I can think of is "feminazi." Does anyone talk about how there are good, reasonable Feminazis but sometimes the Feminazis just go too far and then it's Feminazis Gone Mad? Is there a feminist in the world who says, "It's the Feminazi way to have equal pay for equal work!" I suppose, as with "PC," people could choose to co-opt the term "feminazi," but would anyone want to? It's ugly and insulting. "Political correctness" is not as ugly but is just as derogatory.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
00:58 / 30.07.05
Hmm... I think it's worth pointing out that all words/language MIGHT be argued to work using a mutually accepted code of association. i.e. while my "tree" is different to your "tree", we both see a "tree" when we hear/read/use the word.

Therefore (although as I've firmly stated before this phrase is a very emotive one), surely PC is understood and used by many parties to express pretty much the same set of ideas, the only difference being how each party frames it? It's a relationship between context and agreed understanding, isn't it? For example if I say to a stranger face to face "Hello Mr Happy!" with a smile and a sincere heart, the likelihood is that my greeting will get a positive response (unless the receiver still manages to get the wrong end of the stick, of course; anything's possible). But if instead, I adopt an old school-yard trick and stick out my chin, cross my eyes, and adopt a sarcastic register, is it misguided to say that I would be more likely to evoke a violent or angry response?

I don't want to get side-tracked by whether PC is an entity (isn't that more the territory of Temple?), but as has already been pointed out, PC can be easily seen by most to be part of a kind social change which, along with and owing a great deal to more applied and tangible civil rights activities, has indeed had a observable affect on language, procedure, law, as well as all manner of relations between people on his planet (even if barely noticeable for some).

I think the relatively recent invention of the phrase "Special Needs" in UK education and welfare is a good example to discuss in respect of "PC". As far as I can tell (I admit, with my limited experience), a child can be a "Special Needs" case to a varying degree in the UK. Also, it seems the phrase was probably invented and intended to try and replace and therefore remove the stigma of older descriptive terms like "slow", "backward", etc,(which are clearly insulting and harmful in many ways).

However, only the other day I heard one teenager shouting abuse at a younger kid on the bus: "Oi you! Special Needs! Yeah, I'm talking to you gay-boy!'

Indeed, the insulter was using both "gay" and "special needs" as names for his victim, with the obvious intention to hurt. However, both these phrases only became negatively charged (as it were) by the context of their use. Neither of these terms is particularly or necessarily offensive in and of themselves; nor does anything other than the context of their use show the political and / or ideological bias of the actual user.

(That typed, I think I need to go away now, read your posts [etc], and think a lot more about all this. However, I promise you all I don't mean to stir or to simply reiterate what has already been well said; I just figured what I've just typed might be worth mentioning. Hope it was.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:07 / 30.07.05
Macrophage, either read the thread and react to it or your posts wll be deleted as threadrot. Seriously. I'd hoped you had learned from the Temple that broadcast is a lonely setting. You could start by thinking about how vegetarianism, which appears to be your gold standard for hypocrisy, fits into any model of political correctness.

PW: I think you're failing to understand the idea of "entity". Suggest rereading the thread.

m:

Also, just like 'prudish' or 'sanctimonious', PC could be used to describe both speech acts and non-speech acts. I think my initial definition used 'behavior' to encompass both.

Sorry, but I'm not getting it. Let's look, for example, at allowing asylum seekers to claim benefit while they are waiting for their applications to be processed. That is criticised as political correctness. In what sense is it congruent with:

For me, the primary goal of PC behavior is to gain a sense of moral superiority through shaming others for perceived inappropriate behavior, and not any real desire to address any sort of harm or injustice?

 
 
m
08:41 / 30.07.05
Ibis: Read my previous posts. I've said that I do remember a period in the early nineties when 'PC' was used in the US as a positive descriptor by the left. I also gave a little description of how it was used then.

Also: Folks keep claiming that the term 'PC' originated from the right, but I haven't seen any good evidence from anybody to support that assertion (and I'm afraid that testimonials from american friends and links to crazee right-wing web sites don't really cut it). In fact, my own experience with the term 'PC' is that it was first cultivated by the american left (and sdv's post on page one seems to agree with me on this point), but then abandoned when it became apparent that the term was troublesome and maybe freaking people out a little (like it did me in the early nineties).

Macro: Shit man, I've got no idea what you're talking about. What kind of statement are you trying to make? (boil it down to a just a few sentences if you wouldn't mind)
 
 
m
08:43 / 30.07.05
Haus: Wow, someone's awake! Hold on while whip someting up.
 
 
m
08:49 / 30.07.05
Haus: It's not congruent with my usage at all. It's congruent with the mutated propagandist usage of the right.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:09 / 30.07.05
Ah, I see. So, your definition applies to speech and bahaviiours, but only behaviours that can be equated to speech-acts - like frowning, say, or writing a letter - that is, actions which fit the criteria of puting someone else down in order to feel self-righteous (sorry, that's a gloss - insert your definition if you're more comfortable keeping the terminologies straight)?

The origins of the term are a fascinating side-topic in themselves. There's some stuff here - you could profitably start at the linked post and read down to the end of that page, I think...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:12 / 30.07.05
Sorry, read "I think I see" for "I see" - I may well have honkingly missed the point...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:28 / 30.07.05
I know I've posted this before in another thread, but I can't find it anywhere- if it's too pointless or vague, feel free to delete away.

There is still much debate as to when the term first appeared- there was an ongoing correspondence on (I think) the Guardian letters page a while back, in which someone put forward the idea (well, the way THEY remembered it) that "PC" had originally been used by the Left to mock itself- specifically, it had been a gentle ribbing of those comrades who had been to the Soviet Union and come back "toeing the Party line" as it were. Those not in on the joke didn't realise it WAS a joke, and the rest is (vague) history.

Of course, this was only one of several theories put forward- it was the one I liked (therefore the one I remembered), and I imagine they all had some degree of truth to them.
 
 
sleazenation
11:31 / 30.07.05
Also: Folks keep claiming that the term 'PC' originated from the right, but I haven't seen any good evidence from anybody to support that assertion

I've not seen any convincing evidence that the term 'PC' originated from the left either...

I can see an arguement for claiming that various acts/campaigns that originated on the left were later grouped as being PC, but that is a very different thing...
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
17:32 / 31.07.05
PW: I think you're failing to understand the idea of "entity". Suggest rereading the thread.

Haus, I have read and re-read this thread many times, and I sincerely believe I have not confused or even failed to understand the idea of "entity". Indeed, it seems I know perfectly well what the word means and chose to use it within MY OWN particular context. Also, although I knew others have used the word "entity" in this forum, note how I hadn't placed the word within speech marks in the aforementioned post on purpose, to be more general and avoid talking about any specific post.

I feel I should also type that, much the same as The Media, "The powers that be", and other phrases, the label and meaning of PC can be seen (rightly or wrongly) to be a kind of ephemeral force, which (as I've typed elsewhere about such "entities"/phrases) is constituted by many advocates who use and / or acknowledge the it without actually acknowledging that they are also a contributing factor/member of such an "entity", if indeed it actually exists or not.

Indeed earlier, Haus, I myself used the phrase "PC Hell" and you yourself later accused me of seeing PC as a "monad"; both of which suggest that PC can be seen as an independent force of some kind -- which is one of the reasons why I said I personally didn't want to be side-tracked by such considerations and suggested they would be more relevant to the Temple. But again, I've typed enough and I REALLY don't want to get side-tracked.


So, back to the topic in hand (and I may be wrong to use this example here, but), I have personal experience of what MAY be called a "PC policy" being adopted by various companies and institutions in the past, for my Mum worked in Personnel for nearly thirty years. Over this period she was (I'm very proud to type) instrumental in implementing employment policy which was fair both for the majority AND any social minority -- the "majority" of workers in the UK at the time being white, male, heterosexual, with no clear and distinct physical or mental issues, and being under accepted retirement age, etc.

However, I distinctly remember her often coming home upset and annoyed that some of her smaller-minded colleagues had virtually and wrongly accused her of implementing a "PC Hell", when she clearly wasn't. Indeed, in fact she was (thankfully) implementing new policy dictated by both the changing times AND the Law which would make working life better for ALL concerned-- for the record, the only difference (as far as I can see) between her colleagues comments with my post in the Greenpeace Viral Ad thread are the intent and (therefore) the context with which we used the phrase, "PC Hell".

To believe and / or state, therefore (if indeed anybody actually does) that PC is merely some kind of fictional "monad", is (IHMO) patently untrue, misguided and distracting. Whether used by the Left, the Right, or those of us who try and avoid such outdated false-dichotomies and look outside of that particular parenthesis, the phrase "PC" refers to a very practical and continuing social exercise (even if, to some degree or other, we really should label this exercise with a better, less emotive phrase).

As I typed before, this change in society and social policy owes far more to various civil rights movements and their activities, than to some mysterious (I dunno) "PC God-force"; but to call the practical application of fair language and legislature "Politically Correct" is not necessarily a bad thing per se, is it? Indeed, as I keep typing, surely it's about context,.... isn't it? [please note, for the sake of clarity, that this is another wholeheartedly genuine question on my part!]
 
 
m
02:23 / 01.08.05
Sleaze: I was not trying to claim that 'PC' is a left-wing invention at all, but only pointing out the weakness of the several posts making the claim that 'PC' has only ever been a tool of the right.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:40 / 01.08.05
M: I think the historicity of the term is very interesting, primarily in its vagueness. There's a link above which goes into this in a bit more detail.
 
 
m
12:32 / 01.08.05
I'm not trying to stop any investigation into the origins of the term (in fact I welcome it), just trying to get people to work a little harder in their arguments. There have been several posts by folks popping in to decry 'PC' as a creation of the right, but none have offered any good evidence to back up their assertions. When ibis did that, I called him/her on it, then got quoted out of context in a manner that suggested I was claiming something that I wasn't. My last post was only addressing that quote.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:09 / 01.08.05
The history of the term "politically correct."

SDV stated in this thread It is this moment during the mid-1980s that the concept of 'politically correct' was used to describe what had been a positive and useful phenomena.

The nationmaster encyclopedia states The earliest cited usage of the term comes from the U.S. Supreme Court decision Chisholm v. Georgia (1793).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:15 / 01.08.05
That usage, though, is in a different sense - it's got nothing to do with discrimination or the lack thereof, but rather with what is politically astute at that point, in the sense of what, for example, might damage or improve perceptions of the speaker as a politic individual. It has the commissarial overtones, but not the questions of, to quote the definition above, real or perceived injustice. As mentioned before, I've linked to some preexisting discussion on origins which took this in.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:43 / 01.08.05
m: If one lives in the UK, one has only to read the newspapers in order to establish that the term "political correctness" is a tool of the right. Pick up the Sun, the Mail and the Express for a week*, read their news and comment sections, and the phrase will almost certainly be encountered.

*Not that supposedly liberal or left-wing papers are exempt from this, but as we have seen in this thread and others, the term is often employed by essentially conservative liberals/lefties to describe any form of progressive thought/discourse/behaviour that demands they move out of their comfort zone.
 
 
m
14:02 / 01.08.05
I am fully aware that the word is used as a tool by the right, and I've already said that a couple of times now. Have you read this thread?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:15 / 01.08.05
I thin the parallel question is "where and when is it used by the left, and what can we learn from this?" Flyboy has presented one position - when people nominally on the left (or past that kind of simplistic duality, man) find something in progressive politics outside their comfort zone. One question arising from that is probably "is political correctness used pejoratively (leaving aside for a moment the question of whether is can be or is used positively) always applied to a position identifiably more 'progressive' than the politics of the person using it?"...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:32 / 01.08.05
That's an interesting question. I can conceive of a situation where it's not: for example, it's not impossible that the creator or fans of a piece of queer-positive, sex-positive, feminist art that became the subject of puritanical critiques or calls for censorship, might refer to those critiques and calls for censorship as "political correctness". They'd be ill-advised to do so, in my opinion, because of the nature of the term, the connotations and assumptions it always carries with it, and the fact that there are perfectly good other terms to describe those critiques/calls for censorship.
 
  

Page: 1(2)3456

 
  
Add Your Reply