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The Generally Snobbish Pretentious Asshole Mentality

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16:05 / 16.06.05

Why is it so prevalent on Barbelith?

"That's because you're a simpleton. Could a comics moderator please move this thread to TV & Film? Ta."
- from the thread about the global frequency pilot.

I'm not the only one who has noticed this am i?

Tryphena Absent

16:18 / 16.06.05

It's not, it's just you.

See what happens is, there are over a hundred active posters on this board and generally they put threads in the correct forums but occasionally someone comes along with this idea that one forum is better than another and they only stick to that one area of the board. But barbelith doesn't work like that, the moderators read all of the fora and their job is to put threads in the right places, where in two years, if someone wants to contribute to the thread again it can be found because it's about film or TV and not a comic book really at all.

When you post on barbelith you are putting your post in the public realm. It doesn't only belong to you anymore, it belongs to everyone and that means that you don't have complete control over it anymore. That's the deal that you make when you join in and when you join in you're doing it with lots of other people.

I hope this has been simple enough for you to understand.

16:24 / 16.06.05

yeah, but the mistake made was a fairly understandable one...
TeeVee about comics, innit.
sure, i would agree with fly on the ideal location.
i dont know if it was necessary to be so mean about it, though.
you seem to have answered the first post as though the poster was upset about the movement request, when it seems to me more likely he was reffering to the 'simpleton' remark.
no need for it, really.

16:29 / 16.06.05

I understand threads need to be moved to the appropriate place sometimes that's not my problem, it's people who unnecessarily say things like "simpleton" to that guy or "I hope this has been simple enough for you to understand." I'm sure i can find other examples of this behavior if you like.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:30 / 16.06.05

Except that we had already been through that once with Louisemichel that very same week with "We3 becomes a movie", so the fact that we had to go through the whole process again was understandably a little tiresome. That may not justify calling LouiseMichel a simpleton, but it probably does justify a degree of irritation with a member who is creating work for the moderators for no good reason. Context, toksik, context.

More to the point, we must be able to have a few more examples than that, can't we? I mean, it's a general mentality. There must be examples all over the place. Could we have a few more?

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:33 / 16.06.05

Ah - King Mob's kind offer anticipates me. Please, I think that's a very good plan. Also, if you could suggest what you'd like Barbelith as a board to do about it and why, that would be cool.

16:37 / 16.06.05

oh, sure, context is king.
it was context that stopped me commenting upon it in the thread in which it appeared.

as you say, though, and i feel it may need reiterated, there was no need to call hir a simpleton.
ignoring the simpleton remark and explaing further why fly might have thought LM was so darned simple was not really a very good response either, i feel.

but hey.
i'm a bit of a twat who says regrettable things too.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:48 / 16.06.05

as you say, though, and i feel it may need reiterated, there was no need to call hir a simpleton.

That's not waht I said.

ignoring the simpleton remark and explaing further why fly might have thought LM was so darned simple was not really a very good response either, i feel.

That's not what Nina said, assuming you are talking about Nina there.

I know you have sworn to use your powers of obfuscation only for good, toksik, but I think you may be muddying the waters here. We don't want another "pass the ammunition" fiasco, now, do we?

16:52 / 16.06.05

I'm not the only one who has noticed this am i?

It's the elephant in the room on Barbelith, Mob.

16:56 / 16.06.05

okay, sorry.
you said it wasnt justified.
i was paraphrasing and i apologise for any misunderstanding that doing so may have caused, and further, any upset i may have caused you.
in nina's post she explained why we stream threads into appropriate fora and why the thread was, to her, clearly in the wrong place.
as it was in response to a cpmlaint at being called a simpleton, i assumed she was, in part, justifying or explaining that insult.
as with my previous paraphrase, i apologise for any confusion thismay have caused readers of the board, and for any upset i may have caused nina.
i dont think i was that far off, but then i wasnt the reader.
oh, and i said i would use my powers for awesome,not good.
good just doesnt cut it in today's economic climate.

16:57 / 16.06.05

oh, wait.
correction.
you said it may not justify it.
so it still might.
with which i disagree.

17:03 / 16.06.05

This is opposed to the 'suffering fools gladly mentality' currently afflicting barbelith, right?

All Acting Regiment

17:03 / 16.06.05

Right, the whole point of Barbelith is like, mixing and matching lots of areas, innit? Like, comics and magic, or politics and art. Some people know more about something than others.

So, maybe when you see somebody talking to someone as if that person is stupid, maybe they're just aware that what they're talking about is quite complex and could do with an explanation.

It's pretty hard to explain anything without assuming some kind of knowledge is missing from the explainee, because otherwise, why would they need to have something explained?

Tryphena Absent

17:08 / 16.06.05

Oh no I wasn't justifying Flyboy, I was simply explaining the movement of the thread, which I assumed was a problem since it constituted starting another thread. If this is a problem with one individual moderator than 1)you should be clearer about the problem rather than accusing the moderators generally of having a snobbish, pretentious and asshole mentality, which frankly I take offence to as I always try to explain why I choose to move a thread nicely and 2)if you feel there's a mentality on the board that you don't like then you might want to explain that mentality in a less accusatory fashion, otherwise everyone will think you're the pretentious asshole. I don't understand why we have a thread in conversation about it. I mean, anyone who's read the thread knows what he's said so why don't you pm him if you have a problem with something that he's done to you personally? If this is a thread about how nasty one person is and you're trying to get other people to gang up on him than in my mind that constitutes harrassment.

Tryphena Absent

17:12 / 16.06.05

(Sorry, I didn't mean that to be so biting... I just realised that the neighbourhood cats dug up one of my plants and I'm a bit upset.)

17:19 / 16.06.05

What I like is the way that whenever somebody thinks somebody else is being patronising or downright rude, it must be a problem with Barbelith. Because clearly Barbelith as a concept produces all content appearing on it. Thus instead of saying "that was a bit of a shitty thing to say" or taking the non-argumentative route of muttering "wanker" and ignoring it, a challenge is made against a clear and disgraceful systemic failure.

I think this behaviour represents an urgent problem with the Barbelith Project that MUST BE ADDRESSED.

Regrettable Juvenilia

17:35 / 16.06.05

I'd just like to make clear that I was not calling louisemichel a simpleton because the thread was in the wrong forum. I was responding to this:

the comics movie adaptation therads should all be in the Comics Folder

Oh, apart from Batman. Now the funny thing is that I keep wanting to talk about the Global Frequency comic in that thread, and also, I'd quite like to see less comic book adaptation threads in the Film forum, especially if they're about adaptations that haven't even been greenlit, let alone made. But once the films or tv shows are out, I think it's pretty clear where they should be.

Mainly though, I just like the word 'simpleton'. I may have overused it, and I apologise to both louisemichel and Makosi of Big Brother.

I'd like to hear more about this Generally Snobbish Pretentious Asshole Mentality, though, although I'm not sure the 'Pretentious' bit is anything to worry about. People and things that get called pretentious are almost always great, in my experience. But yeah, generally snobbish assholes - sounds serious, especially if this is "the elephant in the room". What are its big ears, tail and tusks?

17:37 / 16.06.05

I always feel that anybody who disagrees with me, or with anybody I like, does so not because of any legitimate reason, but because of personal spite or a generally shabby character. It is not uncommon to feel that way. Name your feelings, own them, discuss amongst your pals over drinks, or in your livejournal. Please remember that such petulance is not abnormal, but it's not exactly something to which to aspire, either.

Also, never call anyone or anything 'pretentious' again, it's fucking lame.

Regrettable Juvenilia

17:54 / 16.06.05

Wait - is this the kind of behaviour King Mob is talking about? That does seem rather uncalled for.

All Acting Regiment

17:59 / 16.06.05

I only ever see pretension on 'Lith coming from the trolls. It's often a funny kind of pretension, where, rather than postulating that they are part of some enlightened group, accuse 'lithers of doing precisely that, whereas they, the troll, are "The Man In The sTreet/rEal WOrld" etc.

On the other hand, the ocassional "Next Buddha" passes through fairly regularly to dispense knowledge in the form of reams of unreadable rubbish.

Aside from that, generally there's a lot of clever people talking about things they know about. It's usually interesting.

paranoidwriter waves hello

18:16 / 16.06.05

As pretentious as this sounds (groan), in any community there's a lot of blurriness between participants, depending on the multifaceted relationship between the reader and creator of any text. One man's irony is another man's iron.

I find that Barbelith has contributed to my particular usage of language in many ways, and I'm enjoying exploring the many avenues of this particular aspect of online communication, etc. But as a close relative of mine joked with me recently, in response to one of my long and waffled E-mails:

"No need to be quite so grandiloquent!"

Hmmm....Interesting.....Also, to bastardise and paraphrase a snippet of PM text I received from a wiser member on Board (please forgive me mate):

"I shouldn't worry overmuch ... one usually finds a level."

18:48 / 16.06.05

Ok, somethinggging me about this thread. I'm not trying to make anyone feel small or anything, but for the love of God people, the correct plural form of forum is forumcalifragilisticexpialidocious. Sorry, just little things like that bug me. On with the thread.

ONLY NICE THINGS

19:00 / 16.06.05

rather than accusing the moderators generally

I think it's everyone generally...

19:19 / 16.06.05

One of my very first posts was a "Holy cow, magic forums gonna solve the sniper problem in DC!!" or something like that. I kind of posted it in the headshop though. And without a summary. It was my first introduction to Mr. Hause, and I think the term "short bus" was used. I just kind of tucked my tail between my legs, apologized, and kind of hid out for awhile.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:28 / 16.06.05

Oh, God, I remember that. What a shitfest that turned into...

19:47 / 16.06.05

it's not the moderators, or at least not them alone, and i don't care about moving topics into the appropriate forum. It is just a general holier-than-thou attitude that i've noticed. judging by one or two of the responses on this thread i'm not the only one who's noticed this. i'm not blaming the barbelith community for the actions of a few people, nor am i about to suggest a solution. Free speech is certainly a good thing, i'm not looking to censor anybody's ego. i just found it interesting and a bit odd is all that often when somebody says something that is perhaps not the most intelligent thing to say somebody chooses to mock them in some way. it just seems unnecessary and rude. i'm not going to waste my time finding further examples of this behavior as i believe everybody has already made up their mind on the issue and it would be quite like attempting to teach a pig to sing as they say.

Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!

19:55 / 16.06.05

I think that perhaps what King Mob is saying, although quite reductionist, needs to be considered carefully. Whether or not Barbelith is chock-full of "Generally Snobbish Pretentious Assholes", I know many people that are potentially useful contributors that nevertheless simply read and lurk due to the way new posters are treated at Barbelith. Some people, instead of being patient, are seemingly inclined to be patronising and hostile as a knee-jerk reaction.

This was really driven home to me when recently, in a topic started by a new member, two more long-standing posters decided to be derisive and dismissive. Normally I wouldn't give a damn, but I felt the topic and abstract were particularly well thought-out and certainly did not deserve that type of reception.

It seems to me like a kind of rite of passage or hazing ceremony here. "If you can put up with people being immediately hostile pricks, you can play with the cool kids." type nonsense. It's not everyone, but it is common enough to warrant some concern, I think.

19:57 / 16.06.05

so you're saying that people like to mock other people who say stupid shit?

Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!

19:57 / 16.06.05

My post was in response to his first post, not the most recent. Just so you all know.

Red Cross Iodized Salt

20:14 / 16.06.05

I'm not sure what prompted it, but I've been thinking about the kinds of interactions that develop between users of message boards recently. It seems that, over time, similar behaviors and power structures form on pretty much any board I've frequented. Certain users (whether moderators, administrators, longtime members, posters who frequently provide interesting / informative / useful contributions, posters who spend a hell of a lot of time online but manage not to piss people off, or members of a prominent clique*) attain a degree of status that they occasionally reinforce through harsh treatment of a lower status user that has transgressed in some way**. It's almost like stating: "I do not need to be polite to you as any perceived deference on my part may be disproportionately beneficial to you."

I don't know that these structures / behaviors are necessarily a bad thing though. Usually, there is a significant investment of time / thought / involvement in the community for an individual to have attained status. Maintaining a pecking order communicates to a newer / lower status user the necessity of making a comparable investment if similar status is to be earned.

*The development of cliques is kind of interesting as well. No matter how big a board, it never seems to be able to support more than two or three unless they form in different fora. Sometimes they seem to be a result of people 'knowing' each other elsewhere online prior to joining the board, sometimes from people knowing each other in real life. On boards where large scale (generally political or musical) arguments take place they are almost always along the lines of shared opinions.

**Of course, there are often other factors at play when a user gets smacked down. Some people are naturally cantankerous (or have adopted a cantankerous persona). Others don't suffer fools lightly. Still others are just insufferable fools.

20:29 / 16.06.05

"The generally snobbish make him angry, he wants to found a Shangri-La where we can frolic free, devoid of all assholery. So, without favour or sentimentality, join the battle against the pretentious mentality."

Thank you moderator for putting words in my mouth, i think there's a difference between wondering why there is such an abundance of "assholery" and wanting a "Shangri-La" free of assholery. If you like go back to my original post and ask yourself if i sound "angry?"

I'm probably over reacting - this is probably what i deserve for neglecting to create a summary.

20:40 / 16.06.05

This may be the first time you have considered this issue. It is, I think, the third or fourth time I have seen it come up, and I shudder to think how many times people who've been around a long while have seen it.

Wiki?

Haus of Mystery

20:42 / 16.06.05

Wiki Wild Wild West?

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:45 / 16.06.05

Well, kind of. Threads without summaries usually get funny (or hopefully funny) rhyming summaries put in - I doubt that the suggestion was that you were in fact spitting wiith rage.

Incidentally, I'm glad you've decided that you're not going to provide any other examples of this general trend you maintain exists. That's exactly how I like my discussions to go. Then again, I am a Creationist.

Tom Tit: We've done this about three hundred times, and it's best, if you are going to make references, to be reasonably accurate about them. At present, we are reliant on your interpretation of something. That new poster, for example, might have been a long-standing troll, or your idea of what is a well-produced topic and summary might vary from that of others. Vaguery is not our friend here.

Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!

20:52 / 16.06.05

I don't know that these structures / behaviors are necessarily a bad thing though. Usually, there is a significant investment of time / thought / involvement in the community for an individual to have attained status. Maintaining a pecking order communicates to a newer / lower status user the necessity of making a comparable investment if similar status is to be earned.

Which is fine, if your interest in this board is to gain "status". If your interest is interesting conversation, it's fucking retarded behaviour that drives potentially interesting but meek or non-confrontational posters or potential posters away from the board.

This is opposed to the 'suffering fools gladly mentality' currently afflicting barbelith, right?

Others don't suffer fools lightly.

Whenever someone says something about "Not suffering fools gladly" it makes me laugh. We say it like it's a positive thing, when really we're often making excuses for someone's intolerance. Fools aren't just "people I disagree with" or "people who express themselves in an unconventional manner". Please remember that.

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